Let the ATF know how you feel!!


PDA






Acera
February 22, 2011, 04:51 PM
Got this in this months ATF bulletin. They are asking for how you feel about importation of a certain type of shotgun. We all know they are talking about the Saiga. Email them and let them know that it is indeed a sporting weapon, and should have no more restrictions placed on it.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2011-02.pdf



Study on the Importability of Certain Shotguns
ATF recently completed a study of the criteria that the agency uses to determine whether shotguns are importable as sporting firearms under the Gun Control Act.
Since the passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968, ATF has been responsible for determining whether firearms are “generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes” under section 925(d)(3). Only firearms that meet this “sporting purposes” test may be imported.
Although previous studies provided effective guidelines for determining the sporting purposes of rifles, ATF recognized that no similar studies had been completed to determine the sporting suitability of shotguns.
All interested persons may submit comments on the study. Comments may be submitted by e-mail to shotgunstudy@atf.gov or by fax to (202) 648-9601. Faxed comments may not exceed 5 pages. All comments must include name and mailing address. ATF encourages submission of comments no later than May 1, 2011.


It only takes a minute and could make a difference, like a vote!!

If you enjoyed reading about "Let the ATF know how you feel!!" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
InkEd
February 22, 2011, 09:28 PM
It is a legitimate sporting shotgun! The ATF does not care about anyone's opinion. The are all appointed people and do not care about anything but their own agenda. IMHO that agenda is slowly taking away our RTKBA. The importation of the aforementioned shotgun will make absolutely no difference in crime, terrorism or anything else they claim it will effect. The only people who will be effected by another perfectly useful firearm not being permitted is the collectors who will have to pay a premium for them. Anyone who questions the sporting/defensive purposes of a semiautomatic shotgun or rifle, IMHO is simply out to strip Americans of their God (AND government) Given to provide food and
protection for their family. I hope the NRA-ILA takes them to court if they try to pass such a regulation. We do not have a no-trade policy with the country of origin. Firearms should be no different than caviar, except they shouldn't be priced as luxury for the wealthy. If Russia and other former Warsaw Pact nations were permitted
to sell firearms to the "Free World" the economies of those nations would be significantly improved, as would our own due to capitalist competition in the market.

withdrawn34
February 22, 2011, 10:43 PM
The ATF should look at what kind of sports Americans compete in these days. The Saiga is undoubtedly used in some of these competitions.

leadcounsel
February 23, 2011, 11:51 AM
bump. i did it!

Saiga's and other similar shotguns are legitimate firearms for civilian use and sporting purposes under the GCA 1968 and the United States Constitution, which all Federal employees are sworn to uphold.

These shotguns serve as outstanding sources of sport at competitions and with small magazines for hunting in many areas and states where rifles are not allowed. These shotguns also serve as among the best for civilian home defense, as protected under many Court rulings, to include Heller v. District of Columbia and McDonald v. Chicago.

I urge the ATF to not create unneeded prohibitions against Saiga and other firearms of this nature.


However, the newsletter requires "name and mailing address" for all comments.

I am VERY suspect of this requirement... is the ATF just compiling a list of folks who may have these items to make it easier to round them up if they become illegal??? Very suspect...

BTW, the study which is located here http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/012611-study-on-importality-of-certain-shotguns.pdf
is absolute garbage with incredibly biast conclusions.

I urge everyone to write the ATF and Congress to put a stop to the likely ban of Saiga's for importation.

Olympus
February 23, 2011, 01:23 PM
I am VERY suspect of this requirement... is the ATF just compiling a list of folks who may have these items to make it easier to round them up if they become illegal??? Very suspect...


They can look all they want at my house. I hope they look until they're blue in the face. Don't own one now and have never owned one in the past, but I'm happy to provide my opinion.

hso
February 23, 2011, 03:26 PM
They need this information for comments because of bogus comments having been filed in the past.

Their reasoning is circular in their "study". Because these shotguns don't have "traditional" characteristics they won't classify them as having a sporting purpose. This regardless of the fact that they are used in the competitive sports built around combat or LE shooting. They even admit that the number of participants in these sports equal those in other shotgun clay sports, but because they aren't the traditional configuration they won't accept their sporting purpose.

Attack the flawed reasoning used for refusing to accept their sporting use.

sawdeanz
April 3, 2011, 04:24 AM
What a load of crap. I don't really understand why ATF has the power to revise things like these as they please. If it wasn't a problem before why does it have to be addressed now? Their most shoddy assertion I think is the forward pistol grips being not sporting. They give no explanation for why these would be unacceptable, and that is just a taste of the bs they come up with. I don't really get why they need to be sporting anyway...what makes foreign guns so malignant to the ATF anyway?

hso
April 3, 2011, 09:00 AM
My comment - As a former federal department researcher I found the Study on Importability of Certain Shotguns to be badly flawed. The authors clearly started with the conclusion already in place that shotguns that didn't have "sporting characteristics" were not used for sporting purposes, even though the authors readily point out that there are competitive sports using these shotguns, and therefore did not meet the criteria for for importability. The real determination for whether something has the characteristics for an application are in whether it is used for the application and whether it is used in numbers greater than random outliers would account for. The authors point out that the shotguns under consideration are actually in use in numbers equal to other recognized shotgun competitive sports. They then exclude the shotguns under consideration not because their use in a competitive sport is insignificant but, through some reverse logic, that they don't meet the physical characteristics of shotguns in existence before these new competitive sports began. This fails the most fundamental requirements of any legitimate study to start by looking at the available information and drawing the conclusion from what is seen in the data instead of refusing to accept a statistically significant portion of the data because it does not support the desired conclusion.

The study actually shows that the shotguns under consideration are now used in new competitive sports that equal previously existing shotgun competitive sports for the number of participants. Since that is the case then the definition of what characteristics of a shotgun do or do not make it a sporting firearm would need to be revamped to include the characteristics of those shotguns identified as in use in these new competitive sports and the conclusion would logically be that shotguns in use in these sports would meet the definition of a sporting firearm and would be importable.

wheelgunslinger
April 3, 2011, 09:08 AM
Attack the flawed reasoning used for refusing to accept their sporting use.
Absolutely.

Great comment, btw, with post 8.

Kentuckiana rifleman
April 3, 2011, 11:01 AM
I only hope that with this administration something ridiculous doesn't happen.

Dreamcast270mhz
April 3, 2011, 12:25 PM
GCA of '68 needs to done away with altogether haha and all this crap

AlexanderA
April 3, 2011, 01:10 PM
Since the passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968, ATF has been responsible for determining whether firearms are “generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes” under section 925(d)(3). Only firearms that meet this “sporting purposes” test may be imported.

The Second Amendment says nothing about "sporting use"! And the Heller decision, interpreting it as an individual right, didn't say anything about "sporting use." The whole basis of the decision was suitability for personal and community self-protection.

The ATF should be taken to court over its administration of this provision. There's a good chance that GCA '68 section 925 would be declared unconstitutional! All defensive and military firearms, other than those falling under the purview of the NFA, should be freely importable.

However, don't write to the ATF over this. They can do nothing about the underlying law. Write to the NRA, the GOA, the Second Amendment Foundation, your Congresspeople, etc.

Daemon688
April 4, 2011, 07:08 PM
The thing about rules is: the government agency opens up the issue for comment and then they make their own darn decision anyways regardless of comment. Given who we have in working in that agency....well bye bye Saiga unless it gets some political attention. Doesn't hurt to comment though....

alsaqr
April 5, 2011, 08:02 AM
Write your congress critter and demand that he/she do something about the our of control BATFE.

dirtymike1
April 5, 2011, 10:37 AM
Question for the people that think that this for the ATF to gather information and come search your house, has that ever happened? Is there any president for the ATF to kick in doors and seach houses for something they think migth be there? I understand concern, so if anyone has any documented accounts of this happening people provide links, I'm interested to read them.

bbuddtec
April 5, 2011, 10:59 AM
Am I to believe that HD guns can only be "Sporting" ???

HMMMM

Don't get suckered, we need continued pushing to RE-INSTATE the second amendment

as written, and violations be punishable. If you aren't in the NRA/ILA, join!

Don't hide behind our work to keep guns in your hands!

dirtymike1
April 6, 2011, 10:34 AM
So nothing? Does anyone on here have proof that the ATF has busted down doors after a pulic poll like this? I'd really like to read them.

Ignition Override
April 10, 2011, 12:35 AM
According to a friend who is often very astute regarding gun issues, the problem is caused by President Obama's new ATF Director.
Months ago the friend sold about ten Saiga 12s and has found no evidence that they are being imported.

With such an arrogant, anti-gun political appointee, could twenty million e-mails do any good?

ErikO
April 12, 2011, 12:42 PM
Attacking the flawed reasoning of the ATF worked for High Powered Rocketry, why not this? By the way, it will take a long, costly court case to make them change their mind.

gearchecker
April 12, 2011, 02:02 PM
Here is another link with more information and a basic letter you can send to the ATF to show your opposition.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7744

Regards,
gearchecker

wally
April 13, 2011, 09:46 PM
I sent in this Email:

At our gun club we have two sets of steel plate racks. There are 12 plates in each set of racks with "pull chains" to reset the plates.

My wife and I have great fun using our Saiga 12 shotgun, #6 shot and 12 round magazines (all 922R rules were followed when I "converted" it to the "evil" configuration) shooting the plates. Minimum time to downing all 12 is the goal and if you miss you lose as there is only one round per target. Its great fun and has improved both of our recoil control and general shooting skills.

While pump guns can be nearly as much fun, none hold 12 rounds; my wife is of small stature and has difficulty working a pump action shotgun.

Our club has steel plate matches but my wife and I are happy with our informal competitions.

Thank you for your considerations.

henschman
April 21, 2011, 04:33 PM
Maybe we should ask the ATF what the sporting purpose is for their Glocks, 12 gauges, AR-15s, and MP-5s.

The whole notion that a "sporting purpose" is in any way a consideration for whether a certain type of weapon should be available to citizens of this country is a complete affront to the concept of liberty. It makes me sick to my stomach that this is what our nation has come to.

What ever happened to that revolutionary spirit that our founding fathers hoped would never die out? On April 19, 1775, an 800 man detachment of Royal Army and Marines descended on the town of Concord. They confiscated or destroyed any items they thought could be "military" in nature, including some wooden spoons, several barrels of flour, musket balls, and gunpowder. Before the sun set that day, 73 of those soldiers lay dead along the road to Boston, with another 174 wounded by Colonial musket balls and 53 missing. That is how our founding fathers dealt with threats of this nature. SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS.

rtz
April 21, 2011, 05:02 PM
Some Saiga's coming in soon:

http://www.classicarms.us/

Cryogaijin
April 23, 2011, 03:54 AM
Short and to the point. "Myself and many others use our Saiga 12 shotguns for the shooting sports of 3gun and Multigun. A simple search of youtube for "Saiga 12 3 gun" turns up dozens of people using theirs for the same purpose. OBVIOUSLY it has a sporting purpose.

However, shouldn't the question be "Are these shotguns being imported for criminal activity?" If the answer is yes, then ban them. If they aren't being used for criminal activity, what does it matter what use they are being put to?"

Kachok
April 23, 2011, 09:13 AM
Hu I was not aware the ATF had the authority to override the US Constatution at will. Does anyone else see the wrighting on the wall here? It is coming.

randyha
April 23, 2011, 09:28 AM
Maybe we should ask the ATF what the sporting purpose is for their Glocks, 12 gauges, AR-15s, and MP-5s.

The whole notion that a "sporting purpose" is in any way a consideration for whether a certain type of weapon should be available to citizens of this country is a complete affront to the concept of liberty. It makes me sick to my stomach that this is what our nation has come to.

What ever happened to that revolutionary spirit that our founding fathers hoped would never die out? On April 19, 1775, an 800 man detachment of Royal Army and Marines descended on the town of Concord. They confiscated or destroyed any items they thought could be "military" in nature, including some wooden spoons, several barrels of flour, musket balls, and gunpowder. Before the sun set that day, 73 of those soldiers lay dead along the road to Boston, with another 174 wounded by Colonial musket balls and 53 missing. That is how our founding fathers dealt with threats of this nature. SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS.
Implications for glocks, etc?......They are not going to stop here. Can you imagine what would happen in a second term, especially if congress can't, or won't stop this nonsense? This is from Page 2 of the ATF report:

"A change in ATF’s position on practical shooting has potential implications for rifle and handgun classifications as well."

bbuddtec
April 23, 2011, 10:09 AM
Yeah, we need to convince our elected officials that something needs to be done about this Rogue Bureau that seeks to circumvent the constitution and engage in clandestine warfare on their law abiding constituents.

TexasBill
April 23, 2011, 05:04 PM
The Constitution guarantees the right to bear arms; it doesn't say anything about what types of arms may be borne (as we all know). We believe that means there are no limits on the type of weapon; they believe they have the authority (since it's not specifically forbidden) to regulate the types of weapons.

The problem comes in what the BATFE defines as a "sport." It has arbitrarily excluded participation in competitions sponsored by IDPA, IPSC, USPSA and similar organizations from its definition of "sport" despite the fact that thousands enjoy it as a competitive leisure activity and the groups are well-organized with established rules and events that would certainly guarantee their classification as a sport if they were played with something other than firearms.

The BATFE has said its decision to exclude practical shooting sports was arbitrary and did not need to be defended. It could make the selection because nobody has told them they couldn't. As far as I can tell, the only way to force the agency to re-examine its position is for Congress to pass legislation recognizing these groups as legitimate organizations promoting legitimate sporting activities. Since target shooting is already recognized as a legitimate sport, it's not that much of a stretch to extend the same recognition to the the practical shooting sports.

And that's where I think we're missing the boat: rather than playing by the BATFE's rules and attacking the stone wall of a foregone conclusion, we need to be focusing on the agency's ability to make such rules without restraint.

It might just take a resolution passed by Congress; I am not sure it even need to be a law. A "sense of Congress" recognizing the practical shooting sports as sports may be enough of a shot across the BAFTE's bow to make them reconsider their position.

Incidentally, with the interest in the Saiga it's hard to imagine it going away. Even if the originals can't be imported, somebody is going to work out a licensing arrangement to produce them under license in the U.S. and beyond the BATFE's reach.

clutch
April 23, 2011, 05:33 PM
I don't believe my sharing my thoughts with the ATF would be helpful as far as activism goes. Firearms are for protection and in cases of a government gone off the rails to depose it. Sporting purposes, have no place in determining if a firearm should be importable. Wrapping yourself into that fiction is playing into their game.

Research your congress critters, presidential candidates, and every other elected offical you have a say about and then vote for people that understand human rights and the Second Amendment and don't be distracted by the bureocrats that decieve you into thinking you have some impact on their agenda.

Clutch

hso
April 23, 2011, 05:50 PM
However, shouldn't the question be "Are these shotguns being imported for criminal activity?" If the answer is yes, then ban them. If they aren't being used for criminal activity, what does it matter what use they are being put to?"

You do not want to use a "criminal activity" argument for two reasons. First, the law concerns sporting purposes and not criminal activity. We have to stay focused on the flaw of the "study" and on the absurd idea that the law is relevant constitutionally. Second, ay time you try to focus on "criminal activity" as the basis for banning a firearm there can always be found one egregious example to twist the emotions in spite of the rarity of the occurrence. This will always be used against us and should be treated as a third rail in defeding the rights of gun owners.

Guns and more
April 23, 2011, 06:54 PM
Does anyone really think the ATF really cares what gun owners think?
Eric Holder has given them their marching orders, and they are marching.

Take project gunrunner. Do you think they sat around and said, "This ain't right."
No, they hit the bricks.

hso
April 23, 2011, 07:08 PM
Rolling over and peeing on our bellies with our tail between our legs won't help either.

This is a publicly viewable way to comment on the flaws in the "study" and its recommendation to the AG. Those comments are available to every politician, including the POTUS. If the comments are overwhelmingly critical of the methodology, analysis and conclusion of the study it makes it riskier for politicians to allow the AG to accept the study and its conclusion or motivates them to kick it back to examine the entire validity of including the firearms used in 3 gun competition. That's the best thing that could happen because it gives us a better chance to kill the whole stupid thing and puts off any prohibition to Saiga shotguns. Heck, they might "split the difference" and leave Saigas alone just to keep the restrictions on carbines/rifles.

There's no way to know in today's political environment, but we do know one thing. If we don't push back they'll assuredly treat us like pushovers.

M-Cameron
April 23, 2011, 07:57 PM
i for one never understood the "sporting purpose" thing.......


i assume the goal is to reduce the number of "dangerous weapons"........


well if thats the case lets look at the use of each weapon set.......


a traditional "sporting" gun is designed to KILL game animal.......now North American game animals can range anywhere from 300 to over 2000 lbs......


your typical "assault weapon" is designed to INCAPACITATE an average man......approximately 180-270 lbs........



If the ATF were really concerned about dangerous weapons......one would think they would try to ban "hunting" weapons.

1stmarine
April 24, 2011, 09:54 AM
Good point. I am in the sport of defending and following the constitution from A to Z. This is every citizen's sport.
The definition of sport is done by those practicing that sport and not a higher level authority.
Many sports started as pure enthusiast practices and slowly made it to the Olympics due to its popularity.

alsaqr
April 24, 2011, 10:22 AM
According to a friend who is often very astute regarding gun issues, the problem is caused by President Obama's new ATF Director.


The problem is directly related to the fact that a previous administration set a precedent by banning long guns under the "sporting purposes" clause of the GCA 1968.

In 1984 a South African shotgun was banned. This was the first time that the "sporting purposes" clause of the GCA 1968 was applied to a long gun. In 1986 another shotgun was banned. These actions set a precedent that has been used by two subsequent presidents to ban guns.

http://rpc.senate.gov/releases/1998/importban-kf.htm


http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/012611-study-on-importality-of-certain-shotguns.pdf

Write to the ATF.

plodder
April 24, 2011, 11:12 AM
I reject the premise of the question at the onset. Nowhere in my copies of the constitution do I see and reference to or provision for "Sporting Purposes" or "Hunting" as qualifiers for the second ammendment.

Animal Mother
April 24, 2011, 01:11 PM
What a ridiculous study! I wrote the ATF explaining that my family uses an imported Norinco 97 shotgun for skeet shooting. This gun has a bayonet lug, which according to the study would ban it from importation, despite the fact that we use this gun in a manner that would meet the flawed sporting purposes classification. I reject the findings of this Shotgun Study as the authors used flawed logic to reach a predetermined conclusion.

FIVETWOSEVEN
April 24, 2011, 03:24 PM
Maybe we should start barraging our representatives the idea to start a bill to remove that load of crap called "Sporting purpose". We've long changed from that original idea. Our sporting purpose now includes military weapons.

1stmarine
April 24, 2011, 03:34 PM
It is all an arbitrary law and process as the goals to confuse anyone, including lawyers, officers, dealers, so anything goes. Ask any firearms enthusiast living in NJ.

Sports: A sport is an organized, competitive, entertaining, and skillful activity requiring commitment, strategy, and fair play, in which a winner can be defined by objective means. It is governed by a set of rules or customs. Activities such as card games and board games, are classified as "mind sports" and some are recognized as Olympic sports, requiring primarily mental skills and mental physical involvement. Non-competitive activities, for example as jogging or playing catch are usually classified as forms of recreation.

Physical events such as scoring goals or crossing a line first often define the result of a sport. However, the degree of skill and performance in some sports such as diving, dressage and figure skating is judged according to well-defined criteria. This is in contrast with other judged activities such as beauty pageants and body building, where skill does not have to be shown and the criteria are not as well defined.

Records are kept and updated for most sports at the highest levels, while failures and accomplishments are widely announced in sport news. Sports are most often played just for fun or for the simple fact that people need exercise to stay in good physical condition. However, professional sport is a major source of entertainment.

While practices may vary, sports participants are expected to display good sportsmanship, and observe standards of conduct such as being respectful of opponents and officials, and congratulating the winner when losing.

The oldest definition of sport in English (1300) is of anything humans find amusing or entertaining. Other meanings include gambling and events staged for the purpose of gambling; hunting; and games and diversions, including ones that require exercise. Roget's defines the noun sport as an "activity engaged in for relaxation and amusement" with synonyms including diversion and recreation.

Today after the regular training practice we did a few rounds of FAST skeet and FAST trap with the saigas.
Those are two beautiful sports.

NOLA-5.56
April 24, 2011, 03:41 PM
I'm sure this has been said already, but why the heck does there need to be a "sporting use" in order to justify owning a particular weapon? nobody's gonna squeeze any of that PC BS out of me. I don't own an AR because it's fun to plink with, I own it because it's an efficient man killer. it was designed to drop PEOPLE and that's why I have it. same with AK, "tactical"-style shotguns, and whatever other firearm that is intended for man vs. man combat. and there's nothing wrong with coming out and saying that.

of course, I COULD take my AR out to my camp and hunt with it. I'm sure I could drop whatever I shot at. I mean, I'm slinging a hunk of lead thousands of feet per second, same way a bolt gun does, except one was designed for a high magazine capacity and speedy reloads, and the other wasn't because that's not necessary for hunting game.

you know, a Anti on youtube made the point beautifully (he didn't realize that he was proving a pro-gun point, but he indeed was). he was making the argument that all guns should be banned because "nowhere in the 2A are the words "hunting" and/or "sporting" mentioned"... EXACTLY, YOU TWIT!! now, you must ask yourself what the true interpretation of 2A is. all this "but it's got hunting/sporting purposes!" BS is only playing into the dog-and-pony show.

EDIT: whatever you do with your guns is your business. I'm not trying to make fun of anyone who truly does use these types of guns for sport. more power to you.

I know the thread is about Saiga12's but I'm just making a point. I don't have a Saiga, but I do have an 870 express "tactical" with a SpecOps adjustable stock w/ pistol grip, and I can tell you that my 870 was just as deadly before I put the "scary" looking stock on it.

anyway, rant: over.:banghead:

not trying to be offensive, or confrontational, this topic just kind of gets me a little riled-up.:rolleyes:

Maverick223
April 24, 2011, 04:24 PM
I'll contact my local representatives. Any idea as to the repercussions of the passage of such a ban...complete or import (from the linked document it appears only importation would be controlled [like the Dragunov SVD]...not that such conditions would be any more acceptable than an all out ban)?

http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu141/Maverick223_album/IMG_4533.jpg

At this point I'm terrified to open the safe, cause I know it's just sitting there ready to ambush. Complete with a shoulder thing that goes up...which is surely a known carcinogen in the state of CA. :eek: :uhoh:

hso
April 24, 2011, 11:53 PM
Let's stay focused on the opportunity to attack this idiotic "study" though the public comment period.

The whole sporting purpose subterfuge is a fact. Complaining about it won't make it go away. Stopping its expansion, rolling back its application and eventually gutting it is what's needed.

alsaqr
April 25, 2011, 07:33 AM
The whole sporting purpose subterfuge is a fact. Complaining about it won't make it go away. Stopping its expansion, rolling back its application and eventually gutting it is what's needed.

+1
After writing that letter to the BATFE, write to your three congressmen: Tell them that you want the "sporting puposes" clause rescinded.

snubbies
April 25, 2011, 10:31 AM
When was the last time you saw a Federal Agency (i.e. ATF) listen to the people. Congress maybe but not ATF. Good Luck!!!!

outlook ranch
April 25, 2011, 11:25 AM
Think about it....Every time the anti's get shot down on gun control, we see these little chips of banning, denying, or limiting what the lefty's think is unusual or different. Don't try and understand them. They hate all guns and want them to go away. They are not like us. They are chipping away at the 2nd amedment, tiny pieces at a time. Our only recourse is to vote them out of office......Yep, that's it. Vote them out...

Animal Mother
April 27, 2011, 06:28 PM
I would strongly suggest that you contact your Congress critter and let them know that you do not appreciate the BATFE's attempt to make an end run around Congress and ban popular and lawful weapons without the consent of the sitting House or Senate. The best chance we have of getting the ATF to back off is by getting your Representatives and Senators involved. If we all do our part we can stop this!

Animal Mother
April 27, 2011, 06:52 PM
Also, for those that may not know how to start, this is what I sent to my Representative and Senators. I'm not saying its some sort of gold standard, but use it as a guide if you'd like.

Contact your Representative here: https://writerep.house.gov/writerep/welcome.shtml
Contact your Senators here: http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm

Dear Mr. xxx,

It has come to my attention that the BATFE is attempting to make an end run around Congress and ban popular and lawful weapons without the consent of the sitting House or Senate. They are attempting to re-define the term "sporting purposes" to exclude popular and lawful shotguns from importation. My family and I have used models that the BATFE is attempting to ban to shoot skeet and for other lawful purposes at the family tree farm out in xxx. These are legitimate shotguns that are perfectly lawful and importable right now, but that will change if the BATFE is successful in their attempt to redefine "sporting purposes." Please oppose this brazen attempt by the BATFE to expand their authority at the expense of the House and Senate.

If you wish to know more, there are further details at this link: http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Federal/Read.aspx?id=6172

Sincerely,
xxx xxx

1stmarine
April 27, 2011, 08:51 PM
I have been thinking about this and I feel I need to help as firearm's owner and fellow member here.

Animal Mother,
Many thanks for that template. I will add a few words of my own and send it over to the local representatives.

Furthermore I am going to write the ATF explaining the different sport modalities for a Saiga type of firearm.

Anyone let me know what type of sports they are practicing besides the obvious variants of clay birds. I shoot Skeet and Trap in the local leages but ocasionally we use the saigas to have a little fun. We call it shoot ten. You have to break 10 birds as fast as you can call them.
Also I use it sometimes in defensive shooting alternating between handgun and shotgun. Any other sports/modalities let me know.

I was also thinking to start a quick website where we can put the different sports and the rules for those saiga sports and submit those contents. I can ask a programmer I have to put somethign quickly together.

Let me know anything I can do to help.

Cheers,
E.

Maverick223
April 27, 2011, 08:55 PM
1stmarine, 3-gun and Multi-gun are the first that come to mind.

:)

Lord Teapot
April 28, 2011, 10:17 PM
Hu I was not aware the ATF had the authority to override the US Constatution at will. Does anyone else see the wrighting on the wall here? It is coming.
agreed, unfortunately for the ATF there are 10's of millions of heavily armed americans who see them coming as well.

alsaqr
May 14, 2011, 09:34 AM
The responses to the BATFE study are posted for all to see on the BATFE website:

http://www.atf.gov/about/foia/shotgun-study-responses/0306-shotgun-study-responses.pdf

BTW: All US government regulatory agencies post the comments.

daorhgih
May 14, 2011, 10:28 AM
quote: "... can always be found one egregious example to twist the emotions ..." As I see it, an attempt to harm the first family will be set up by "The Powers That Be" to provide that egregious example , by using some clueless ultra-right or fascist skin-head dupes, hairy-scary-biker -- you know, the kind of guy everyone loves to hate -- with fire-arms, for their cause of a rebellious "New Natural Nation". A show-trial will be pulled off, with swift justice, especially against The Evil Guns, and the verdict will serve to further inflame the powder-keg of Citizen ignorance and prejudices. The whole act will be a front for the Alphabet-Nazis and their JBTs to begin wiping their stinky parts with The Constitution, state by state, city by city, house by house, citizen by citizen. On another subject: what is the easiest way to bar a window from the inside, permanently. Thanks.

RightCoastBiased
May 14, 2011, 10:33 AM
Why does an firearm need to be sporting in order to own it? I didn't see that in the constitution.

Maverick223
May 14, 2011, 01:57 PM
The following was resurrected from the missing sector of the thread (see announcement for details):

Your letters and comments become part of the record. That is the way things work in the Federal government. It has been this way for a long time.
I can't help but notice that they redacted dirty language...yet they included personal information, which was required per their instructions. :scrutiny:

hso
May 14, 2011, 05:53 PM
I received my BATFE "Thank you for responding..." email.
U.S. Department of Justice
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives


Dear Sir or Madame:
Thank you for responding to the Shotgun Study. Your assistance will further promote ATF’s ability to support the firearms industry. We will review and consider your comments and suggestions.
If you have any questions, you may contact the Firearms and Explosives Industry Division @ 202-648-7090. Once again, thank you for your email.

Firearms and Explosives Industry Division
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

For those that would not participate because of sloth or fear, your voices have not been heard and your influence will be smaller than if you had at least made the minimal effort to post a cogent comment that the elected and appointed officials might have been made aware of. Being afraid of getting on some list or being too disillusioned or lazy to "waste your time commenting" is a pathetic excuse for not exercising your right to be heard when critical 2A issues like this come up.

If you're afraid of getting on some list for commenting on government absurdity, guess what, you might as well consider yourself on some list for being here at all. If you just didn't care enough to respond, but spend your time complaining here, then you're doubly wasting your time because there were numerous letter templates available to comment with that only required the effort to copy and paste and send.

Of the 516 pages of responses -

1 response was blank
2 were 4 pages
4 were 3 pages
4 were from "nuts" (2X2 pages, 1x3, 1x4 for 11 pages of nuttyness that contributed nothing)
41 responses were spam (24X1 pages,14x2 pages, 2X3 pages, 1X5 pages for 61 pages of spam)

Of all the 400+ real response, I don't recall any that supported the ATF study. They all criticized it or the basis behind it.
It would have been good to see at least another 10 or 100 or 1,000 gun owners paste a copied opinion into an email and send it to the BATFE before they recommended a ban on the importation of more firearms.

alsaqr
May 16, 2011, 07:36 AM
Those comments are the ones that were received by 6 March, 2011.

http://www.atf.gov/about/foia/atf-submissions-for-public-comment.html

Bubbles
May 16, 2011, 07:44 AM
Wow. Gun owners need to use spellcheck more.

If you enjoyed reading about "Let the ATF know how you feel!!" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!