Karh CW9 vs Kel Tec P11 vs Kel Tec PF9 for CCW


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TennJed
February 22, 2011, 06:34 PM
I posted this on the general handgun forum, but meant to post it on the auto forum. I have no idea how to move it so I apologize for the double posting

Guys I am looking at getting a sub compact 9mm for Concealed Carry. I want to keep it around $400.00 or less. These 3 models (Karh CW9, Kel Tec P11,& Kel Tec PF9) keep popping up b/c of size and $.

Can anyone tell me more about them or have other suggestions.

right now I am leaning toward the P11 b/c of extra rounds and my LGS has it for $270.00

Thanks

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denster
February 22, 2011, 06:49 PM
Among the ones you listed the Kahr wins hands down. Might also want to look at the new Ruger LC9.

Delford
February 22, 2011, 07:08 PM
I agree with denster that Kahr wins. You can feel the quality difference just by holding one. They cost more because they are so well made. I also agree that you may want to look at the LC9. Ruger has made some fine products at a very good price point. I own a Ruger P345 and CC in a High Noon Split Decision or Fobus paddle.

JQP
February 22, 2011, 07:15 PM
Kahr CW9.

Again, as has been said - hands down.

milq
February 22, 2011, 07:26 PM
I vote Kahr without hesitation. The CW9 isn't what I'd call sub-compact but it is very concealable and comfortable to shoot (for me).

I have only recently purchased mine (about a month ago) and it has been flawless and I can shoot it better than I expected. It takes the place of my much loved J-frame when I am somewhere where I can carry.

kokapelli
February 22, 2011, 08:34 PM
I would pick Kahr also but the Kahr PM9 or CM9 would be a more appropriate comparison.

IdahoLT1
February 22, 2011, 09:41 PM
Id pick the CW9 hands down as well. It might have a smaller capacity but theyre easy to shoot(Ive shot 300rds in a range session with no problems) which is hard to say about the Keltecs. People seem to complain about the recoil on the P11 and especially the PF9. With the CW9, you'll get a 1/2" longer barrel and a little lighter but much, much smoother trigger. The Kahrs seem to be more refined and overall a better product.

However, with a tight budget in mind, its hard to beat the Keltecs. They still arent a bad pistol(Id buy one over a Taurus) but seem to have more cons than the Kahr's.

IdahoLT1
February 22, 2011, 09:48 PM
I vote Kahr without hesitation. The CW9 isn't what I'd call sub-compact but it is very concealable and comfortable to shoot (for me).


Its a sub-compact to me. Its too big for pocket carry and isnt a compact sized(4" barrel) gun, so its sub-compact.

Nico Testosteros
February 22, 2011, 10:10 PM
I have a P11. Bought it about 14 years ago. I like it for what it is. It is a bit snappy but it is a small , light gun so it, like the others, is gonna recoil.
The trigger pull is long and relatively hard. (that's what she said). I've dry-fired my friend's PF9 and the trigger is better and the gun is much thinner. I've never tried the trigger on a Kahr. My friend complains about the shape of the grip on the PF9 hurting; I think it's due to the large serrations or checkering. A Hogue grip sleeve would probably fix that. I also have done the pencil eraser trigger stop mod to lessen overtravel.I also have the trigger shoe installed. I'm not sure if the PF9 needs either but they've made my P11 nicer to shoot.

IdahoLT1
February 22, 2011, 10:11 PM
Kahrs have a long but "revolver smooth" trigger pull with a fairly long reset.

MikePaiN
February 22, 2011, 10:17 PM
Kahr's have the best stock DA trigger in the business....
In this comparison...the CW9 without question.

larryf1952
February 22, 2011, 10:38 PM
I ordered a Kahr CW9 last week...it should be arriving in just a couple of days, and I'm eagerly waiting for it. It'll be the first polymer, DAO striker fired gun that I've owned in 35 years of handgun shooting. I was convinced to try one after handling one recently. I liked its slimness and lack of external levers, knobs and doodads. It felt very good, had a very nice, short trigger for a DAO, and seemed to be of significantly higher quality than most of the others that I found for a very reasonable price. As many here have said, I've heard almost 100% positive reports from people who've used them.

I can't wait to see it and try it out.

jyo
February 22, 2011, 10:44 PM
I have two CW9s (one for me, one for wife) so you know where this is going...

randytrapper
February 22, 2011, 10:53 PM
FWIW, after my weeks of research I went with the CW9. It should be in tomorrow and with any luck I'll be able to slip away long enough to pick it up at my LGS...
$369- at Bud's seemed like a good deal on a quality weapon. Time will tell if it works out for me, but most everyone seems really pleased with them.

evan price
February 23, 2011, 02:02 AM
PF9 for me. Thinner, lighter, and a better trigger. KelTec's no BS lifetime warranty helps too!

Mayo
February 23, 2011, 08:56 AM
Of those---CW9---but I'd wait for a CM9 in a few weeks.

Kingcreek
February 23, 2011, 12:07 PM
CW9 can't be beat at current street prices. I have one and I like it very much.

saturno_v
February 23, 2011, 12:16 PM
The CW9 and the P-11 and PF9 are not really comparable...the last two (especially the PF9) are really pocket pieces where the CW9 is not.

The Kahr equivalent of the 2 Kel-Tecs, the PM9, has a steeet price of more than double....sorry but too much for a pocket piece that will inevitably get scratched and battered with time.....Kel-Tec are solid, reliable, utilitarian pistols.....perfect for pocket carry....they may be not as nicely finished as the Kahrs, but they are as reliable (if not even more) and with a solid company and customer service behind it...good enough for me.

kokapelli
February 23, 2011, 12:43 PM
The CW9 and the P-11 and PF9 are not really comparable...the last two (especially the PF9) are really pocket pieces where the CW9 is not.

The Kahr equivalent of the 2 Kel-Tecs, the PM9, has a steeet price of more than double....sorry but too much for a pocket piece that will inevitably get scratched and battered with time.....Kel-Tec are solid, reliable, utilitarian pistols.....perfect for pocket carry....they may be not as nicely finished as the Kahrs, but they are as reliable (if not even more) and with a solid company and customer service behind it...good enough for me.
Are you forgetting the new Kahr CM9? Based on and exactly the same size as the PM9 will be available almost any minute and IMO will easily out class the PF9 and P-11.

http://ompldr.org/vN2kzdQ/CM9.jpg

saturno_v
February 23, 2011, 01:08 PM
Are you forgetting the new Kahr CM9? Based on and exactly the same size as the PM9 will be available almost any minute and IMO will easily out class the PF9 and P-11.




....still more expensive and....ouclass for what?? The P-11 and PF-9 (especially the first) are well proven design....for very close range emergency work is all you need...they are not range tools....

kokapelli
February 23, 2011, 02:00 PM
....still more expensive and....ouclass for what?? The P-11 and PF-9 (especially the first) are well proven design....for very close range emergency work is all you need...they are not range tools....
I don't disagree and yes the Kel-Tecs will serve you well.

I have owned both a P11 and a PF9 and yes the Kahr is more expensive and it also has a much better trigger than the PF9 and a much, much, much better trigger than the P11.

The Kahr can be shot faster because it handles recoil much better than either of the Kel-Tecs, is much more accurate, at least for me it is and last but not least is the workmanship difference.

saturno_v
February 23, 2011, 02:21 PM
The Kahr can be shot faster because it handles recoil much better than either of the Kel-Tecs, is much more accurate, at least for me it is and last but not least is the workmanship difference.

I did shot coupe of small Kahrs....I agree that the trigger is marginal better (in my experience) but I haven't noticed any particular difference in recoil...and again, all these things means almost nothing for the intended use of this class of handguns.....I can quickly put an entire magazine in a man sized target at 7-10 yards with my P-11.....is all I need.


Better finishing yes (not necessarily better engineering or quality of construction...the P-11 is a little technical gem) but something you pay for dearly...in my opinion, the P-11, PF-9 are better value for the money.

Ala Dan
February 23, 2011, 07:18 PM
I have owned a Kahr CW-9 from its introduction. A flawless, reliable 9mm
that is large enough to get a good grip on; but yet small enough to conceal
comfortably~! :scrutiny: ;) :D

rellascout
February 23, 2011, 07:22 PM
I have owned a Kahr CW-9 from its introduction. A flawless, reliable 9mm
that is large enough to get a good grip on; but yet small enough to conceal
comfortably~!

I agree with that. The PM9 is almost too small. The CW9 is big enough to get a good grip on it. They are an incredible value at under well under $400 OTD.

It is a good consistent smooth trigger pull. It is a bit long but so far I like it.

451 Detonics
February 23, 2011, 07:33 PM
I had a P11, sold it and bought a PF-9. The PF-9 has a great trigger, works well for a pocket gun, is more than accurate enough, pleasant to shoot at the range, reliable to a fault, and a great buy. I do recommend a couple things, dry fire it enough to smooth the action (A-Zoom snap caps are worth the price) and take an emory board and smooth some of the sharp ridges. My PF-9 has gone almost 3000 rounds now without single malfunction other than ones I purposely induced, I wanted to see just how badly you could limp wrist one before it had a FTF, turns out you have to hold it very loosely.

For twice as much money you can get a Kahr, but I really don't feel you get twice as much gun.

Defense Minister
February 23, 2011, 07:44 PM
P-11 if capacity is a MAJOR criteria. I had one. It was as reliable as any gun I've owned, but the trigger stinks.

PF-9 if you want a reliable yet inexpensive gun with a good trigger. I currently own one, have 600 trouble-free rounds through it, and love it!

Kahr if you have money burning a hole in your pocket, and you want to spend it on something shinier than a Kel-Tec.

They are all reliable, none of them are target pistols. $400 dollars on a gun, or $269 on a gun that will do the same job, and $131 on a holster and ammo. It's your money, so decide for yourself.

Good luck!

iblong
February 24, 2011, 09:46 AM
The p11 is a decent pistol but could not stand the trigger,the PF9 is a good pistol with an ok trigger and easy carry,but can be a bit punishing as a range gun.In my opinion of those you have chosen the CW9 is hands down the best choice,best trigger by far best accuracy and well worth the money.
and some thing you can run a couple hundred rounds through nad not feel beat up.Just one mans opion.

IdahoLT1
February 24, 2011, 03:00 PM
The CW9 and the P-11 and PF9 are not really comparable...the last two (especially the PF9) are really pocket pieces where the CW9 is not.



Not really. The CW9 and P11 are basically the same size

CW9:
Width: .9"
Height: 4.5"
Length: 5.9"
Barrel: 3.6"
Weight: 15.8oz

P11
Width. 1"
Height: 4.3"
Length: 5.6"
Barrel: 3.1"
Weight: 14oz

sixgunner455
February 24, 2011, 03:36 PM
I had a P11. I have a S&W 642. I will not trade it, but am considering a Kahr in addition.

TonyT
February 24, 2011, 06:16 PM
Comparing a Kahr PM-9 to the other two would be simlar to comparing a BMW to a Fiat or Renault.

GojuBrian
February 24, 2011, 06:23 PM
TonyT said it!!!

Mayo
February 24, 2011, 06:35 PM
Plain and simple---if you can afford it get the Kahr.

saturno_v
February 24, 2011, 07:02 PM
My P-11 has been dead realiable....it hits where it points, it is fast...

I can afford a Kahr but I decided a more intelligent use of my money for a pocket piece....with the difference I can buy something else....

A Rohrbaugh is even nicer than a Kahr...a real treat for your hands and eyes.....where do you draw the line for a pocket pistol?? The bad guy sure will not be able to tell the difference.

saturno_v
February 24, 2011, 07:03 PM
Not really. The CW9 and P11 are basically the same size

CW9:
Width: .9"
Height: 4.5"
Length: 5.9"
Barrel: 3.6"
Weight: 15.8oz

P11
Width. 1"
Height: 4.3"
Length: 5.6"
Barrel: 3.1"
Weight: 14oz


You are right...i'm susprise hwo close they are in size....however, in my pocket even half inch helps...and the P-11 can carry 12+1...

saturno_v
February 24, 2011, 07:05 PM
Comparing a Kahr PM-9 to the other two would be simlar to comparing a BMW to a Fiat or Renault.

I would say more comparing a Honda with a Jaguar.....one is not fancy and keep you on the road, the other treats you with nice leather and fine wood but is often in the shop....:D

heeler
February 24, 2011, 07:52 PM
I recently bought a Kahr PM9 and had the chance to handle the PF-9 and CW9 all at the same time.
The CW9 had a better grip feel than my chosen PM9 and the PF9 was lighter than the CW9 and it was very obvious as I picked it up.
However,once I handled and really looked at all three pistols carefully there really was no comparison and the Kahr's were just much more refined and truely had a quality feel about them that the Kel-Tec just could not get up to.
I will admit the Kel-Tec PF-9 would make a damn good poor man's carry piece.
If I had more money on me at the time I might of bought it along with my much more expensive Kahr because the asking price was a whole $265.00.

saturno_v
February 24, 2011, 08:29 PM
will admit the Kel-Tec PF-9 would make a damn good poor man's carry piece.


Why a Kel Tec would be a "poor man's carry piece" baffles me.

It works, it is accurate for its intended use, utterly reliable, comfortable to wear and technically fairly sophisticated...what is "poor man" about it?? It is not an Hi-Point (with all respect for Hi-Points)

The Kahr is better finished but cost much more.....do KT owners says that a Kahr is a "stupid man's Kel Tec??"...no...to each its own....

An R9 owner can call the small Kahrs "a poor man's Rohrbaugh".

Caliper_RWVA
February 24, 2011, 09:55 PM
The Kahr has too upright a grip angle for me. Doesn't point naturally, which puts me off to it as a CCW. I found the grip on the P11 to be overly blocky and the trigger pull miserable. Liked the PF9 because of its a 1911-like grip angle that works for my hands and while the trigger pull is long, it is smooth and not overly heavy.

I don't understand people complaining of the PF9 recoil though. Sure, it kicks more than a full size 9mm and is not a good gun for a beginner but its a fun little thing to shoot a few boxes through it at the range, just keep a good grip. Only thing it needed was was smoothing the mold line on the trigger.

GunNut
February 24, 2011, 10:01 PM
PF9 for me. Thinner, lighter, and a better trigger. KelTec's no BS lifetime warranty helps too!



Did you seriously just say that a KT PF9 has a better trigger than a Kahr CW9?

My PF9 trigger is very heavy and looooong.

Browns Fan
February 24, 2011, 10:16 PM
I must agree with 451 Detonics ( I am also the lucky owner of a Detonics 9-11-01 BTW), I have a pf9 and love it! It is reliable and accurate and carries well. I also shoot it well in our BUG matches. Nice to know that I made an excellent choice in a carry gun when I am unable to carry a glock 19!

heeler
February 24, 2011, 11:45 PM
Saturno V,I was not implying anything such as class warfare in regards to the PF9.
What I meant was the fact that the PF9 can be bought so cheaply that a person on a low wage can far more easily buy one than they can the Kahr.
And they will have a very functional firearm on a budget price.
Uhh...I have been down that old road in my past.

jbr
February 25, 2011, 12:08 AM
Can't compare - never shot the K-tec's. Like my Kahr but it took a while for me to adapt to the long trigger pull after shooting SA's for a while but after a few rounds it is really smooth - just a little long. Shoots reliably. Cleans well.

RinkRat
February 26, 2011, 02:17 AM
I know the OP asked about Karh vs Kel Tec but some other options have come up, so Ruger just came out with the new 9mm LC9, which is similar in size to those three in question. Haven't seen one myself yet, it's just starting to trickle into the LGS's and being the new kid on the block it may have some gremlins to workout??? Haven't heard enough about it yet. But it does come equipped with a couple more safeties then some may care for.

Seems the market-price right now is about $350. or so, putting it about $100. more then the Kel Tec's for now, but once the hype comas-down it might be a bit closer in price to the Kel Tec's. But it is and will be less that a Karh. Does anyone have any words on this? It seems being a Ruger it would tend to fall somewhere between the Karh's and Kel Tec's both in price and in finished-workmanship <not to knock either one>. But then this LC9 being a Ruger it could possibly be up there within the Karh's quality but at a little more affordable price similar to the Kel Tec's.

CW9
Width: .9"
Height: 4.5"
Length: 5.9"
Barrel: 3.6"
Weight: 15.8oz
Capacity: 7+1
MSRP: $549.

P11
Width. 1"
Height: 4.3"
Length: 5.6"
Barrel: 3.1"
Weight: 14oz
Capacity: 10+1
MSRP: $333. Blue / $377. Parkerized / $390. Hard Chrome

PF9
Width. .88"
Height: 4.3"
Length: 5.85"
Barrel: 3.1"
Weight: 12.7oz
Capacity: 7+1
MSRP: $333. Blue / $377. Parkerized / $390. Hard Chrome

LC9
Width: .9"
Height: 4.5"
Length: 6"
Barrel: 3.12"
Weight: 17.10oz
Capacity: 7+1
MSRP: $443.

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