Disadvantage of .38 in a .357


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2WheelsGood
February 22, 2011, 09:58 PM
I'm new to the world of revolvers, so this may seem like a silly question. Is there a disadvantage to using .38 ammo in a gun that was designed for .357 as opposed to a gun designed specifically for .38?

I notice that many revolver models come in .357 Magnum versions and .38 Special versions (SP101, LCR, etc.). So if there's nothing wrong with using .38 ammo in a .357, why do they even bother making .38-only versions?

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Walkalong
February 22, 2011, 10:02 PM
It will build up crud in the 1/8" or so in front of the case where the .357 case goes. It needs to be kept reasonably clean and checked before firing .357s. It will have to be cleaned up good from time to time.

Other than that, no negatives. :)

Flint Ridge
February 22, 2011, 10:07 PM
You will also miss out on a lot of recoil, noise and weird looks from the early rounds when they presume you blew up your gun. You will also be forced to shoot it a lot more.

95% of my work is with the .38 special and then some .357 for fun - but for me it is not a house round.

Frozen North
February 22, 2011, 10:08 PM
38 special revolvers are built much lighter. They are often more easily concealed and less brick like in your pocket. Less pressure with 38 = less metal in .38 revolvers.

2WheelsGood
February 22, 2011, 10:13 PM
38 special revolvers are built much lighter. They are often more easily concealed and less brick like in your pocket. Less pressure with 38 = less metal in .38 revolvers.Not always true, and largely why I'm asking. A Ruger SP101 is the same weight for a .38 and a .357, so why would you ever buy the .38 version? I mean, even if you never planned on shooting .357, why limit yourself? It just seemed like there must be a good reason. I can see Walkalong's point, but that still doesn't seem like a good enough reason to choose a .38.

Jeff H
February 22, 2011, 10:27 PM
I notice that many revolver models come in .357 Magnum versions and .38 Special versions (SP101, LCR, etc.). So if there's nothing wrong with using .38 ammo in a .357, why do they even bother making .38-only versions?


The LCRs aren't the same guns. The 357 is beefier. The SP may be the same gun but you have no idea if the 357 version was heat treated to a higher degree to withstand the pressure.

Walkalong explained the only real down side and to answer your question a little more bluntly: if you are willing to do a little extra cleaning, then there is no reason not to buy the 357 version. If you are interested in these light guns, you'll probably be shooting mostly 38spec anyway. I don't think 357 in the LCR sounds like a lot of fun.

DickM
February 23, 2011, 09:19 AM
There are some who assert that the longer bullet jump (distance from the ogive of the bullet to where it engages the forcing cone and rifling) when a .38 is fired in a .357 chamber degrades accuracy. I can't say I've noticed that to be the case in any of my .357s, but 99% of the time I'm firing handloads made up to duplicate .38 Special in .357 cases, specifically to avoid the crud buildup that Walkalong mentioned (which is real, even though some claim it doesn't happen).

dogngun
February 23, 2011, 09:30 AM
.38's in .357's as well as .44 Spls in .44 mags..To me this versatility is part of the reason I like the magnum revolvers. I carry specials in my magnum revolvers and use the magnum rounds for special occasions- hiking or hunting, or traveling. I would not use magnum rounds in a house gun or in a gun I carry when just going about my normal business. The .357 Mag was developed for police use in the 1930's because it would shoot through car bodies reliably and give LEO's of the time some means to combat the car bandit gangs of that period. So I generally save the mag loads for when I really want to shoot through cars, which is not frequently.

But I want the strength of the magnum revolvers and I like the ability to choose which round to use.
Just my opinion, but that's what you asked.

mark

sagebrushjim
February 23, 2011, 09:39 AM
dogngun hit the nail on the head..... my reasoning also .....:)

BossHogg
February 23, 2011, 09:40 AM
If I buy a 357 it's going to be a heavy gun so I can actuality enjoy shooting the 357. The 357 in light guns are no joy to shoot for me. Light weight 38 spl are great to shoot and carry. The 38 versions are usally cheaper than the 357's even more so in the used market.

I love it when people say buy a light weight 357 because you get 2 guns in one, and shoot 2 rounds of 357 and switch to 38 's and never fire another round of 357.

2WheelsGood
February 23, 2011, 09:42 AM
But I want the strength of the magnum revolvers and I like the ability to choose which round to use.And that's what I was thinking, but then it seems silly to buy--or even make--a version of the same gun in a .38 only. So I figured there must be a good reason. Apparently not. What DickM said about bullet jump is what I was thinking may be the case.

bayhawk2
February 23, 2011, 09:50 AM
The Ruger LCR is a perfect example of your question.
It originally came in .38 SPL. (only).Then for unknown reasons,
Ruger came out with the same weapon that shoots .357 Magnum.
Since it shoots .357 Mag.,it will also,(as in many .357 mags)shoot
.38 spl.Thing is they are basically the same price.Now many stores
are stuck with the .38 spl. only weapons.You can find the
.38 Spl. version almost anywhere,but the .357/.38 version is
selling so fast,that it is hard to find.bayhawk

2WheelsGood
February 23, 2011, 10:00 AM
The Ruger LCR is a perfect example of your question.In the case of the LCR, though, they are slightly different. Steel instead of aluminum, and 4 ounces heavier. You're right, the LCR is a good example. But what makes a lot less sense to me is something like the SP101 that's been around for a long time, still available in both versions, and the weight is the same for both. I guess it's possible there is some other difference I don't know about. Well, I think it's a few bucks less for the .38 version.

CajunBass
February 23, 2011, 10:24 AM
Because their marketing research and no doubt sales figures tell them there is a market for both.

bayhawk2
February 23, 2011, 10:28 AM
2 wheels-I see what you mean.The SP-101 comes in
38 Spl.,and .357 Mag./.38SPL.
I would guess as to the replies,that the .38 Spl.
version,vs. the .357/.38 is a(distance)bullet travel to the
barrel chamber thing.I would think pressues and
accuracy would be of some significants if you are
looking at the .38 ballistics in the two.
P.S. That was a good question.It may change my decision
on what Ruger LCR to buy.bayhawk

bayhawk2
February 23, 2011, 11:01 AM
C.B.-If ballistics are a factor in the two .38 rounds,
then that would certainly make sense.

Old Ranger
February 23, 2011, 12:52 PM
A steady diet of .38 spl in a .357 cylinder can erode the chambers. Cleaning helps, but a LOT of shooting can do some harm.

DickM
February 23, 2011, 01:35 PM
A steady diet of .38 spl in a .357 cylinder can erode the chambers.

I've heard this before, but I don't see how it can be true. Nobody claims that shooting .357s in a .357 will cause erosion, and it's the same steel, just 1/8" different in location.

Uteridge
February 23, 2011, 01:55 PM
Shooting .38's in a .357 will not erode the chamber unless you refuse to clean your firearm. It happens the same way that you will get pitting in the barrel if you shoot it forever and never clean it. If you take care of your revolver there is no reason to avoid shooting .38's in a .357 unless you have extra cash in your pocket when you buy ammo and you need to lighten your wallet by buying more expensive .357 rounds.

The plus side of shooting .38's is you can practice more often (cheaper ammo) and you are less likely to develop the j-frame flinch that you can observe every time you go to the range and see someone shooting a small revolver with .357's. If you are a new shooter then you are much better served by shooting .38's for practice.

Jim Watson
February 23, 2011, 08:11 PM
Jeff Cooper said the disadvantage of being able to shoot .38 Special in a .357 Magnum revolver was that it led to practicing with the cheap comfortable stuff and being shocked by blast and recoil when you had to defend yourself with full charge ammunition.

zxcvbob
February 23, 2011, 08:23 PM
Jeff Cooper said the disadvantage of being able to shoot .38 Special in a .357 Magnum revolver was that it led to practicing with the cheap comfortable stuff and being shocked by blast and recoil when you had to defend yourself with full charge ammunition.I practice a lot with light-to-medium 38 Specials, a little with .357 Magnums, and I use .38 Special +P's for HD (I practice with those some too, but not much.)

2WheelsGood
February 23, 2011, 08:30 PM
Jeff Cooper said the disadvantage of being able to shoot .38 Special in a .357 Magnum revolver was that it led to practicing with the cheap comfortable stuff and being shocked by blast and recoil when you had to defend yourself with full charge ammunition.

There's definitely some wisdom to that, but it's true with all guns that you should practice at least some with your chosen SD ammo.

Lucky Derby
February 23, 2011, 11:41 PM
AFAIK the SP101 has not been available in .38 Special only in a long time. It was first offered in .38 and later became available in .357.
Often a .38 version of a gun is slightly smaller and lighter than the .357 counterpart. Think S&W M15 .38 and M19 .357.
Also quite often a .38 can be had cheaper than the .357 version, although that makes no sense from the manufacturer's standpoint, it does from the buyer's standpoint.
Sometimes the .38 version is for a specific contract with a LEA or private security company who do not want their officers to be able to load .357 ammo against policy. The GP100 and 681 .38s fall into this category.

chriske
February 24, 2011, 07:05 AM
No disadvantage at all that I could detect after doing it (shooting 38's in 357 M cylinders) for 20 years now.

2WheelsGood
February 24, 2011, 09:34 AM
AFAIK the SP101 has not been available in .38 Special only in a long time. It was first offered in .38 and later became available in .357.Both versions are currently listed on the Ruger web site. And there is a "buy now" button. http://www.ruger.com/products/sp101/models.html

kanook
February 24, 2011, 09:42 AM
why do they even bother making .38-only versions?
Some people are restricted to 38 special. I was interested in a job not that long ago that if I carried a revolver, it could only be a 38 and had to marked so.

jtwodogs
February 24, 2011, 09:51 AM
When shooting the lighter model "J frame like guns" with full power .357 mag loads.
It will not be an enjoyable experience when you have bantam like grips on the gun.
It's all about the grips. Either a houge mono grip or a Pacy. grip will go a long in settleing the hash of a viscious little tike, like a j framed .357 with full house loads.

JStout
February 24, 2011, 03:01 PM
As mentioned before, only the carbon buildup in the cylinder and the lower velocity.

oldbear
February 24, 2011, 04:56 PM
No disadvantage at all that I could detect after doing it (shooting 38's in 357 M cylinders) for 20 years now.
So true. I've been doing the same for 40 years W/O any problems. I always finish my range trip with .357 Magnum ammo, and Clean, Clean, and Clean my revolvers within 90 minuets of shooting them. That way I don't get a carbon build up in the chambers.

Hondo 60
February 24, 2011, 09:41 PM
Shot 5 rounds of 357 (factory) outta my SP101 yesterday.
That was PLENTY for me. (I must be gettin soft)
Also shot 100 rds of .38 sp.

Ya, it needed a good cleaning, but I do that anyway.
So I took an extra 10 seconds to scrub each of the chambers.

motorcycle-charlie
February 25, 2011, 07:23 AM
i never saw a disadvantage. i think it is a very versatile chambering. .357 mag for knockin stuff down and .38 for lighter plinkin or .38+p for carryin. it all depends on what you want to shoot that day. it also gives a wide range of ammo selection.

KJS
February 25, 2011, 08:48 AM
...there is no reason to avoid shooting .38's in a .357 unless you have extra cash in your pocket when you buy ammo and you need to lighten your wallet by buying more expensive .357 rounds.

It's not as if .38 ammo is cheap. Both .38 & .357 are plenty costly.

Last year I bought 1,500 rounds of .357 online at a price that's only about 4 cents a round more than it would have cost for WWB .38s at Walmart (assuming Walmart actually had any in stock). For that extra 13% or so in price, I got about 3 times the muzzle energy, providing a serious kick instead of a powder puff load.

You have a fully valid point about using .38s in tiny revolvers, where .357 would be a brutal endurance contest.

In my case that's not much of an issue. My Ruger GP100 is just under a foot long and weighs just under 3 pounds. It's built like a tank and was truly made to fire .357 Magnum with the weight needed to soak up recoil and make such shooting fun.

If one really wants to save money they should fire .22s, which is why I bought a .22 pistol last year. Really fun and at 3 cents a round I feel no inhibition about firing as fast as they can!

Stainz
February 25, 2011, 09:59 AM
As to currently available SP101's, the KSP-821X is a 2.25" fixed sight 5-shot .38 Special; the KSP-321X is the same thing in .357 Magnum - both were $607 MSRP on pg 69 of their 2010 catalog. It is my understanding that the requirement by some security guard companies is .38 Special only. The 4" 10, 64, & 67 are still available from S&W in .38 Special mid-frame size, too - same rationale - security guard use. Heck, when S&W only makes Star Trek 'phasers', they'll probably still make the Model 10.

Stainz

PS I bought .357M's - like my 627's - because on one makes an eight-shooter .38! I reload - and shoot lots of .357M's - at .38 Special levels.

2WheelsGood
February 25, 2011, 10:03 AM
It is my understanding that the requirement by some security guard companies is .38 Special only.A few have mentioned this. This sounds like the most plausible answer to my original question. It never occurred to me, but it makes a lot of sense.

dogngun
February 25, 2011, 10:20 AM
some departments had regs prohibiting .357 magnums-Ruger made some of the Police Service Six series in .38 Spl for duty use, and I am sure others did and still do for this reason...as the man said earlier, it is about sales...

I also really agree about shooting any "airweight" .357 magnum...I did it once, and am not anxious to do it again. I don't even like lightweight .38Spl revolvers-for me they are hard to shoot well ,especially for a followup shot.
My old hands can't take that kind of punishment any more...

My regular carry revolver is a Rossi 462 6 shot stainless that weighs 26 oz.
Very comfortable and accurate.

mark

Dr-Science
February 26, 2011, 04:04 AM
From my knowledge, a "crud ring" builds when firing (shorter) 38 rounds through a 357. Just requires a little cleaning before trying to push 357s through it.

NJ Shooter
February 26, 2011, 08:58 AM
There are some who assert that the longer bullet jump (distance from the ogive of the bullet to where it engages the forcing cone and rifling) when a .38 is fired in a .357 chamber degrades accuracy. I can't say I've noticed that to be the case in any of my .357s, but 99% of the time I'm firing handloads made up to duplicate .38 Special in .357 cases, specifically to avoid the crud buildup that Walkalong mentioned (which is real, even though some claim it doesn't happen).
I'll second .357 cases loaded to .38 special, the carbon ring that builds up is one p.i.t.a.
Takes as long to remove as I spent shooting at the range.

MIL-DOT
February 26, 2011, 01:28 PM
So, roughly how many rounds of .38 does it take before the build-up becomes an issue with .357's ?
I'm planning on taking my GP100 out today,but I don't think I've ever run a single .357 through it :what:.
But it hasn't had but maybe three boxes of .38's run through it. It's been cleaned, but I don't think i paid any extra attention to the chambers.
Am I cool to go bust a box of .357's , or should I give the cylinders a good scrubbing first ?
(sorry for the stupid question)

2WheelsGood
February 26, 2011, 01:32 PM
So, roughly how many rounds of .38 does it take before the build-up becomes an issue with .357's ?Depends largely on how dirty your ammo is. Try it at home before you leave. Try loading the gun with .357, and if they won't insert all the way into the cylinder, clean it until they do. As long as they go all the way into the cylinder, you're good to go.

Haxby
February 26, 2011, 01:39 PM
Mil-dot - If the 357s chamber easily, you should be good to go.

As far as why they still make 38s: A good 38 Special revolver is cool.

MIL-DOT
February 26, 2011, 01:47 PM
Ah, that makes sense. Thanks,guys. :)

DrLaw
February 26, 2011, 01:51 PM
For many years I have had revolvers, since that was all I was allowed to carry as an officer.

For just as many years I have shot .38 Special out of .357's with no observable problems. I used my L-frame for years in competition using .38's and it is just as accurate now as it was then, even after pushing some .357's through it as well.

As another person said, you need to keep the cylinder clean, but you have to clean any guns if you want to keep them running year after year after year.

No, go on an shoot .38's in a .357. It is fun, not as much recoil, and easier on the wallet (especially if you reload). Everything shooting should be about.

Oh, and if you don't reload now, get one of the Lee Loaders, the manual ones that have everything in a little box, and start having fun learning how to reload. When you then get into it big time, then get a press and sell the loader. That's the way I started, 30 years ago.

The Doc is out now. :cool:

shootingthebreeze
February 26, 2011, 02:26 PM
No there is no disadvantage; I have fired .38 at the range through my Rossi stainless steel snub for years to include .357 loads as well. Never had any problems. What is nice is having the choice of firing either .38 or .357 in one handgun.

NMGonzo
February 26, 2011, 04:22 PM
.380 by the bedside, 357 for ambling outside the household.

Flint Ridge
February 26, 2011, 04:56 PM
Cleaning the .38 rings in teh .357's I simple take a .40 cal brush an old cleaning rod, soak the cylinders. Then place the rod in a cordless drill, swing open cylinder and gently place in chamber of one away from frame, hold cylinder as if reloading (2 fingers through frame) hold firmly, spool up the speed on the cordless, and move in and out a little. Repeat with each cylinder keeping it away from the frame. I've done this a lot and it just takes a couple of minutes and is highly effective.

HelterSkelter
February 26, 2011, 05:15 PM
i carry a .357. i shoot .38s for target practice because they are cheaper, but they are not the greatest defensive round. i have seen and heard of too many people walking away from a .38 special hit. if i'm going to be defending my life i don't want there to be any chance someone is not going down on the first hit. the mythical blinding flash and deafening blast i have not yet witnessed and i have shot my snubnoses with hot and heavy loads without protecion at night to see what it was like. it was no more deafening or blinding than .38s to me.

buy a .357 and you can use the .38s for practice and the .357s for carry. the .357 kick isn't as bad as most people tell you. i am 5'9" and 145lbs and i can handle hot and heavy .357s all day. just shoot them a while and you get used to it like any round. if you keep in mind it's not a 9mm so there's gonna be a little kick you will be fine and have no complaints.

youngda9
February 26, 2011, 07:20 PM
I haven't re-loaded my .38 shells in ages...what's the point when you can shoot .357 out of it. Love the recoil and fire !!! I have a .22 if I want to plink.

easyrider6042004@yahoo.ca
February 27, 2011, 06:44 AM
IMO, no disadvantage shooting 38s vs. 357.

You should clean your revolver, once in a while anyways, so just brush all thechambers. If ever the chambers erodes preventing the ejection of .357 brass, I will just reload .38 spl brass to close to .357 velocities/pressure.

After all the first .357 magnum was developed using .38 spl brass. So erosion is no biggie for me.

BigN
February 27, 2011, 07:49 AM
Seems to me that when you buy a 357 opposed to just a 38, you get two guns for the price of one. That in itself is reason enough for me. If you don't want to shoot 38's out of it, then don't, but my point is, if you want to, you can...

mio
February 27, 2011, 12:01 PM
ill always buy the .357 over the .38spl just because the .357 holds its value better around here and can be sold quicker if you eer happen to need cash bad. (having said that id need cash REALLY bad to get rid of one)

the biggest disadvantage that i can see is that whenever i want to shoot my .357 i have to ask where it is cause my wife shoots the heck out of it with .38s in it. she likes shooting 357s out my dads 6" barrel blackhawk but hates them out of my 3" barrel 65

Olde School
February 27, 2011, 12:31 PM
http://secure.armorholdings.com/kleen-bore/product174.html

I have been using this product for over 40 years to clean the cylinders and forcing cones on my stainless steel revolvers. If you use alot of lead .38 spl ammo and then without proper cleaning use .357 you could have some excessive pressure exerted where the lead buildup is on the forcing cone.

motorcycle-charlie
February 27, 2011, 07:38 PM
i recently bought a S&W model 28 Highway Patrolman. cleaned it before i shot it, but not good enough. .38s shot fine and ejected well. .357s shot good but did not eject at all. had to push them out from the front of the cylinder. shot .38s the rest of the day. got home to give it a good cleaning and realized the 1/8 of crud at the cylinder ends. looks like the previous owner shot .38s only for the last 30-40 years. i scrubbed it for about an hour or so to get the lead out. should be good to go now. keep those chambers clean and there shouldnt be any problems.

Ala Dan
February 27, 2011, 07:54 PM
As for cleaning the chambers, just keep one fired .357 magnum case in your
range bag, and every now and then run this fired case into each of the guns
chambers. With this, you should be fine as it will push out the gunk from the
fired .38 Specials~! ;) :D

zxcvbob
February 28, 2011, 05:44 PM
As for cleaning the chambers, just keep one fired .357 magnum case in your range bag, and every now and then run this fired case into each of the guns chambers. With this, you should be fine as it will push out the gunk from the fired .38 Specials~! It works even better if you chamfer the inside if the .357 case mouth, and flare it so it just barely fits the cylinder openings.

baronello
February 28, 2011, 05:52 PM
When i was a Deputy Sheriff in the 90's, we practiced with 38sp for about 500 rounds. Then switched to 357 for another 100 rounds, and finally used the 357's for our final bi-annual qualification, at which time we were issued brand, spanking new ammo to carry on duty. Like any good gun owner, I cleaned my piece after each use.

mes227
February 28, 2011, 06:11 PM
Shorter casings in magnum chambers can results in lowered accuracy. But my 686 7-shot seems to handle 38 specials just fine. Here are two groups from today's range trip. Bench rest at 7 yrds.

mes227
February 28, 2011, 06:15 PM
And my son shooting at 10 yrds.

bluetopper
February 28, 2011, 10:36 PM
For me it's either nice 38's for target work or snubs for carry or the 44 Mag. I handload for all.

I don't have much use for 357 anymore. Just my opinion.

content
February 28, 2011, 11:58 PM
Hello friends and neighbors // Lol thanks Ala Dan you have just explained why this is not much of a problem when I shoot .38 in my .357s.

Usually I load five .38s and one .357 to loose flinch and give more respect to my grip shooting .38s. I never know when the .357 will come up.
This inadvertantly cleans my cylinder unless by chance the .357 should find the same hole over and over.

I do clean my handguns after each visit but rarely need to take a brush to the chambers.

wrs840
March 1, 2011, 12:17 AM
This is why I have two .357mag revolvers and three .38spl revolvers:

To shoot .357mag out of the .357s, and .38spl out of the .38s.

FWIW, I shoot more accurately with my police-trade S&W M64 .38spl 4" than any other handgun I own, and it's therefore probably the last handgun I'd ever sell... But I "like" them all. Don't limit yourself. Plan on future purchases, rather than looking for a do-all single purchase. It's a fun process you'll enjoy! Think ahead!

gamestalker
March 1, 2011, 02:56 PM
I have a couple .357s, one a S&W 66-5 and a Taurus 608, both decently heavy, but it still requires seasoning to eliminate the reactive flinch. I hand load and have given both a steady diet of H110/296 full house loads which will deffinitely say "Hello" when touching one off. My point, I practice a lot with those loads, and have found a way to rid myself of the reactive flinch associated with a high recoil gun. I will leave a cylinder or two with a fired round in it. That way I am able to recognize and stop my reactive flinch. I do the same thing when shooting my high powered rifles. My Son and I will load for each other and slip a fired round in there every couple of shots.
But if I owned something like the LCR I personally would avoid the magnum stuff, if for no other reason, to avoid damaging the nerves in my wrists and hands. Our body isn't designed to absorb that much energy without something getting damaged. I learned my lesson the hard way with a short barreled 44 mag. some years back, costing me a painful surgical procedure.
Buy the heavier revolver, or don't plan on shooting the magnum rounds very often if you know what is good for you.

Confederate
March 2, 2011, 01:33 AM
You get a slight accuracy hit with a .357 because the throat's necessarily a bit further up the chamber. That said, I'd get a .357 any day. I wouldn't use .357 in an apartment or condo where penetration can be an issue. I think the .38 is very underestimated in today's society as there are some very good loads out there. But outdoors you just can't beat the magnum.

I may take a hit for this as some people say no handgun round is very good, but here goes: The .357 is a good round when stopping someone with one shot is imperative. And that includes feral dogs and smaller animals that may be a problem. For camping or road use, the magnum has the power to penetrate vehicles. And a .38 just won't do it against a black bear. (If forced to shoot a bear, aim for the nose or mouth, not between the eyes.)

I had some psycho ride my tail on a trip home from Kentucky one time, and my .357 Ruger Security-Six was in my trunk. I must of hit 85 mph and shift lanes and this bastard stayed on my bumper. When I looked in the rear view window, he was hunched over the steering wheel and I knew he must have been well over six feet tall, plus that boy looked, ah say he looked demented! Black plastic glasses, a plaid short-sleeved shirt that had been washed too many times and a car that was older than I was! He looked like something out of one of those old Alfred Hitchcock TV shows back when I was a kid. Plus he had his front window down, indicating that clunker didn't have air-conditioning. I took at exit at high speed, which he missed, and I immediately pulled over and got my gun. My mother was with me at the time and it was in the trunk because of her. After seeing the guy when he passed, she never complained about my gun being in the glove box again!

So get the .357. You won't regret it. Heck, it's a lot of peoples' favorite caliber.

Of course, many folks you meet in the great outdoors are wonderful people who just want to be friendly and discuss things like the pros and cons of fixed blades versus folders and chummy things like that!

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh198/jriler/KnifeGuySm.jpg

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