What documentation does FFL need to receive gun from out of state?


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bushmaster1313
February 22, 2011, 11:05 PM
If I buy a handgun online and have the non-FFL out of state seller send it to my local FFL, what documentation does the local FFL need from the out-of-state seller to log it into the bound book so he can then transfer it to me?

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NavyLCDR
February 22, 2011, 11:18 PM
By law, the only documentation needed is the name and address of the seller, which could be obtained from the return address label.

99% of FFLs that receive shipments from private parties will request a copy of a driver's license license or ID card to be enclosed with the gun, as well as a note explaining to whom the gun is sold to.

Some FFLs will refuse any shipment that does not come from another FFL.

You absolutely must ask the receiving FFL what they want, or run the risk of them refusing the shipment.

docnyt
February 22, 2011, 11:23 PM
+1 NavyLT. Best thing to do is ask your local FFL.

Quiet
February 23, 2011, 12:04 AM
NavyLT summed it up.

Another check with your recieving FFL dealer on how they prefer to recieve a shipment. Because they can legally refuse a shipment that does comply with what they want.

nalioth
February 23, 2011, 12:19 AM
Because they can legally refuse a shipment that does comply with what they want.In other words, any that isn't cleared beforehand.

It'd be kinda late to refuse a shipment after they open it and find out something was missing from their list of demands.



Please note that not all FFLs act this way (thankfully).

Quiet
February 23, 2011, 12:22 AM
It'd be kinda late to refuse a shipment after they open it and find out something was missing from their list of demands.
I've ran into a few FFL dealers that return the shipment if it doesn't contain the info they wanted.

nalioth
February 23, 2011, 12:43 AM
It'd be kinda late to refuse a shipment after they open it and find out something was missing from their list of demands.
I've ran into a few FFL dealers that return the shipment if it doesn't contain the info they wanted.Such behavior is illegal.

Once a dealer receives a firearm for disposition, they cannot legally return it directly to the sender.

Bubba613
February 23, 2011, 03:25 AM
I've found dealers in NY state to be particularly atrocious here. I had one call me at 7AM to scream that the ffl I sent wasn't to spec. He threatened to send the gun back. I asked how he was going to send a gun to an unlicensed person. I also asked him to produce evidence i was required to send one in the first place. He failed on both counts.
I won't make sales to NY state anymore as that experience was not unique.

bushmaster1313
February 23, 2011, 07:45 AM
Once a dealer receives a firearm for disposition, they cannot legally return it directly to the sender.


So what is an FFL to do if he received a gun yesterday from an out of state non-FFL with no documentation and a properly documented buyer is in the store today ready to receive the paid-for gun in a legal transfer?

P.S. I am not an FFL.

Bubbles
February 23, 2011, 08:02 AM
So what is an FFL to do if he received a gun yesterday from an out of state non-FFL with no documentation
Set it aside and contact the closest ATF field office to have someone come get it.

Bubba613
February 23, 2011, 08:58 AM
Set it aside and contact the closest ATF field office to have someone come get it.


Use whatever you have available to generate the correct information to the best of your knowledge and go with that.

nalioth
February 23, 2011, 11:56 AM
So what is an FFL to do if he received a gun yesterday from an out of state non-FFL with no documentation and a properly documented buyer is in the store today ready to receive the paid-for gun in a legal transfer?Set it aside and contact the closest ATF field office to have someone come get it.Just like that, eh? Closed case with no appeals, WOW.

Some more customer-friendly (and legal) options would be:
• "Allow the buyer to make arrangements for the sender to provide a positive identification."
• "Allow the parties involved provide an FFL to ship the gun back to"


When dealing with an unlicensed individual, the only legally required information can found in the return address. No documents of any kind are legally required. Some dealers require a copy of your drivers license, birth certificate, etc, which is not legally required, but a business decision on their part.

Bubba613
February 23, 2011, 12:09 PM
Just like that, eh? Closed case with no appeals, WOW.

Yeah. The receiving dealer has a duty to take care of his customer, who has more than likely already paid for the gun. Simply shipping it off to ATF is, imo, not much more than theft.

Bubbles
February 23, 2011, 12:09 PM
When the question was asked I took it to mean that the sender was not willing to provide that information.

If I get a box with a first initial, last name Smith, a return address of a Mailboxes Etc, and neither the sender nor the buyer can give me what I need to enter that gun properly in my bound book, I don't have much recourse - and the hassle I get from the ATF at my next compliance inspection is not worth the transfer fee.

Bubba613
February 23, 2011, 12:24 PM
I've never had that happen. I'd be surprised if it ever did.

mgkdrgn
February 23, 2011, 07:56 PM
If I buy a handgun online and have the non-FFL out of state seller send it to my local FFL, what documentation does the local FFL need from the out-of-state seller to log it into the bound book so he can then transfer it to me?
He requires what ever info he says he requires. It's his business, and his butt on the line with the BATFE. He has to be able to identify, to his satisfaction, the source of the firearm that is being entered into his bound book.

Personally, I'll settle for a copy of your drivers license, and I do "personal" transfers all the time. I also want to know =what= is coming ahead of time because there are handguns that are illegal in my state (SC), and I'm not allowed to have them on my premises, much less do a transfer.

If the receiving FFL's "requirements" are too much of a hassle for seller, find another FFL, plenty of them out there. But =all= need to know where the gun came from.

mgkdrgn
February 23, 2011, 08:02 PM
So what is an FFL to do if he received a gun yesterday from an out of state non-FFL with no documentation and a properly documented buyer is in the store today ready to receive the paid-for gun in a legal transfer?

P.S. I am not an FFL.
Personally, if I ended up in that position I'd turn the gun over to SLED (SC State Police) for destruction. That would be after I exhausted all efforts to get a "source" for the gun.

No way in h### I'm going to loose my license, my $10K bond and/or go to jail for a $20 transfer.

And no, the "buyer" doesn't get a vote.

mgkdrgn
February 23, 2011, 08:03 PM
Yeah. The receiving dealer has a duty to take care of his customer, who has more than likely already paid for the gun. Simply shipping it off to ATF is, imo, not much more than theft.
The receiving dealers duty to retain his license and stay out of jail trumps any "duty to his customer".

Bubba613
February 23, 2011, 08:09 PM
The receiving dealers duty to retain his license and stay out of jail trumps any "duty to his customer".
Since we've already agreed there is no requirement to verify any information, on what grounds is the dealer going to lose his license, much less go to jail?

I'll note btw that the head of Cav Arms ran virtually a criminal enterprise, altering serial numbers on full auto weapons, selling to prohibited persons and failing to file proper paperwork, all knowingly. And he has yet to spend one day in jail.

newfalguy101
February 23, 2011, 09:13 PM
Actually, A receiving dealer most certianly CAN return a firearm to the sender.

Same as if YOU send a firearm in for repair, it is returned directly to YOU.



I just check the return addy if there is nothing in the box, barring that I contact MY customer and have them get the info from the seller.

Bubba613
February 23, 2011, 09:40 PM
Uh, no.
A firearm may be sent to the manufacturer for repair and returned to the sender. This is like someone who brings one to a gunsmith and can pick it up without doing a 4473.
But that is an exception for repair. A sale is different and I do not believe a dealer can send a firearm to a non-licensee. Of course if someone can produce statute and reg to the contrary then I am wrong.

nalioth
February 23, 2011, 09:44 PM
Actually, A receiving dealer most certianly CAN return a firearm to the sender.

Same as if YOU send a firearm in for repair, it is returned directly to YOU.I'd suggest you contact your lawyer for some schoolin' before you return a firearm directly back to an ATF plant.

mgkdrgn
February 24, 2011, 01:33 PM
Since we've already agreed there is no requirement to verify any information, on what grounds is the dealer going to lose his license, much less go to jail?

I'll note btw that the head of Cav Arms ran virtually a criminal enterprise, altering serial numbers on full auto weapons, selling to prohibited persons and failing to file proper paperwork, all knowingly. And he has yet to spend one day in jail.
You can run YOUR business any way you want to. I'll run MINE the way I want to.

And Al Capone didn't serve a day in jail either ... until the first day he did. The wheels grind slowly at times ... but they do grind on.

Horny Toad
February 24, 2011, 02:10 PM
.... I also want to know =what= is coming ahead of time because there are handguns that are illegal in my state (SC), and I'm not allowed to have them on my premises, much less do a transfer.

+1

The FFL I use asks for:

1. The name of the dealer I purchased from
2. Their fax # so he can fax his FFL
3. What type of gun. He wants to know whether or not it's legal in NJ

Once it comes in, I get a call from him. I go fill out the 4473, pay him his fee and I'm on my way. Nice and simple.

Bubba613
February 24, 2011, 05:24 PM
You can run YOUR business any way you want to. I'll run MINE the way I want to.

So the ATF is going to put someone in jail because he doesn't run his business the way you run yours?:confused: I think I'm confused.

newfalguy101
February 24, 2011, 06:31 PM
upon further reflection,

I couldnt send it back, afterall, if I dont know who it came from, who would I send it back to??

Course, if I simply refused the shipment, it would go back from whence it came.

There are all kinds of different ideas about whats needed and whats not needed, I still grumble when I run across someone who asks for something rediculous, BUT, if I want to buy from them, I must play by their rules ( once).

Federal laws says one thing, State law may say something different, and we havent even gotten to local ordinances yet.

nalioth
February 24, 2011, 09:50 PM
upon further reflection,

I couldnt send it back, afterall, if I dont know who it came from, who would I send it back to??I don't think that's what we're talking about here (at least I'm not).

Gunsmith Bob receives a package with a legible return address on it, but gets his knickers in a twist because the package doesn't contain a xerox of a DL, birth certificate, this month's magazine centerfold, etc - as he (not the law) required.

For a gunsmith to "call the ATF to impound the gun" over this is just sad.

The title of the OP is "What documentation does an FFL need?" - and the answer from a legal standpoint is "None". A legible return address is all that is required.

oneounceload
February 24, 2011, 10:06 PM
Having sold a shipped a variety of guns over the last few months, I have always told the buyer tat I was NOT a FFL, and to make sure his FFL would accept the shipment. I always addressed the shipment to the buyer care of the FFL, so the FFL would know who to call.....(many do not like to open the box until the buyer is there just because). I have never had an issues like this. I always included a Bill of Sale with the buyer's name, the gun description and serial number, date, etc., and a copy of my DL

No issues so far

medalguy
February 25, 2011, 09:32 PM
Just my .02:

I am no longer a ffl holder, was for many years. Whenever I buy a gun online now, I always inform the seller that my ffl needs "FOR XXXXX(my name)" on the label of the shipping container so he knows exactly what he's receiving, and I always let him know just what is coming to him, from whom, and from where. This is just simple courtesy, and I've never had a problem.

newfalguy101
February 25, 2011, 11:31 PM
Thats a great policy, medalguy !!

When I ship a gun I've sold, I always put

re: Customers last name

directly above the FFL's name on the shipping label, that way they know who the package is for before they ever even open it.

nalioth
February 25, 2011, 11:57 PM
Thats a great policy, medalguy !!

When I ship a gun I've sold, I always put

re: Customers last name

directly above the FFL's name on the shipping label, that way they know who the package is for before they ever even open it.A correct way to send it is:

Johnny Buyer
c/o Gun Shop Name / Shop Owner Name
123 Whatever Street
Wherever, Texas, 00000


"re:" does what, exactly? I'm not familiar with that phrase.

newfalguy101
February 26, 2011, 10:06 AM
"re" mean REFERENCE as in this gun belongs to so and so, or this order is for so and so

the label looks like so:

re: my customer
Guns R us
Wherever street
Whatever city, state zip

So it says the exact same thing yours does

nalioth
February 26, 2011, 01:55 PM
"re" mean REFERENCE as in this gun belongs to so and so, or this order is for so and soIf you say so.

Looks to me like another internet term has entered the real world, causing confusion as it goes. . .

hermannr
February 26, 2011, 05:29 PM
I think one of the problems some ffls (especially pawn shop ffls I would suspect) have with received from other than another ffl is the risk of receiving stolen property.

I know two ffls in this area. The one that has a gunshop/pawn shop will only receive from another ffl and has stated as much about this covers his pawn behind against a possible charge of receiving stolen property. If the weapon is coming from another dealer/manufacturer he will not be asked how he proved it was not stolen.

The other guy is a gunsmith/sporting goods store. He will accept from a private individual. (but he charges more for the transfer too)

TexasRifleman
February 26, 2011, 05:42 PM
If you say so.

Looks to me like another internet term has entered the real world, causing confusion as it goes. . .

re: has been in use long before the Internet was around. That's old school typewriter business letter shorthand.

re: reference
enc: enclosure
cc: carbon copy

nalioth
February 26, 2011, 05:55 PM
I think one of the problems some ffls (especially pawn shop ffls I would suspect) have with received from other than another ffl is the risk of receiving stolen property.No FFL doing a transfer incurs any liability in this situation, so I fail to understand why some have this requirement.

So they transfer an unknown-to-them stolen gun - when requested by the law, they can disclose who they sold it to and/or who they got it from. If they still have it, they can surrender it.

dogtown tom
February 26, 2011, 07:56 PM
nalioth Quote:
Originally Posted by newfalguy101
"re" mean REFERENCE as in this gun belongs to so and so, or this order is for so and so
If you say so.

Looks to me like another internet term has entered the real world, causing confusion as it goes. . .

Lemme guess your age.........under 35?:D

I almost blew a mouthful of Coke all over my keyboard (what I called a typewriter back in the pre internet days).

Just FYI....

Addressing the package as:

John Smith (customers name)
1234 Gunshop Lane
Plano, TX 75023

....WILL cause problems. If the package requires a signature and no one is available to sign, they leave a notice that your package may be picked up the next day at the local post office (or UPS/FedEx customer service center). USPS/UPS/FedEx require ID before releasing the package, but the name on the package does not match my name (I'm the FFL). Twice now, I've been told that only the addressee may sign for the package.:banghead:

The address label should only show the addressee.........the FFL. Any other information can be written elsewhere on the box.

Bubba613
February 27, 2011, 08:31 AM
I've never heard that. Typically it is only someone over 18. I've gotten I don't know how many packages with guns addressed to the recipient that I've signed for.

NavyLCDR
February 27, 2011, 11:22 AM
The post office charges extra for restricted delivery for a reason. Signature required delivery does NOT require the signature of the exact person to whom the package is addressed. Restricted delivery does:

http://www.usps.com/shipping/specialservices.htm

Confirmation at Delivery

Collect on Delivery (COD) - Want your customers to pay for their merchandise and/or postage at the time of delivery? We’ll pick up the payment for you – and get a signature to verify delivery.

Delivery Confirmation™ - You can verify when your package was delivered or get information on delivery attempts, forwardings, or returns. Delivery Confirmation is now available to most APO/FPO destinations and some Pacific Islands. Information is available online or via toll-free number.

Restricted Delivery - When you need to make sure your package lands in the right hands, choose Restricted Delivery. Only the individuals you specify are authorized to sign for it.

Return Receipt - Want hard evidence that your mail was delivered? With this service, you get a postcard sent to you, signed by the person who received your package.

Return Receipt for Merchandise - You’re covered both ways, with both a mailing receipt at the time of sending, and a signed, dated return receipt after delivery.

Signature Confirmation™ - Get written proof by asking us to request a signature from the person that received your mail or shipment. You can even have a proof of delivery letter with the signature of the recipient faxed or mailed to you upon request.

hermannr
February 28, 2011, 11:59 PM
The problem is in the WA state Pawn shop license, not the ffl, at least that is what I was told.

Something about holding items for 30 days: applies to anything that is taken into the pawn shop, before it can be released for sale if it does not come from a licensed wholesaler/dealer (not necessarily an ffl) or manufacturer. This is so there is time for the police to check for stolen goods, if they happen to be looking for something.

His pawn shop records have to reflect the holding period. (again, for the pawn shop, and it is a state requirement)

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