2 is 1, 1 is none.


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rocinante
February 24, 2011, 08:05 AM
Anybody else buy into that old saw? Lately I have been doubling up on stuff. My best 'rationale' is I have two sons and I want each to have some of the same thing.

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CajunBass
February 24, 2011, 08:11 AM
I don't really double up, but I do try to keep the numbers ever for that very reason. If one of them gets a Model 28 and one gets a 27...well too bad. They'll just have to suffer.

danprkr
February 24, 2011, 10:25 AM
My wife and I are going to the same thing along with an extra. There may be more in the safe for fun, but for defensive use we'll both have the same thing in the night stand and in a long rifle for disaster/looting/EOWAWKI/whatever in the safe.

forindooruseonly
February 24, 2011, 10:42 AM
Not really. I have gobs of ammo and accessories for my guns and numerous of the same style, like 1911s, but I don't go and buy a backup just for the old 2 is 1 argument.
I only have doubles when I come across another at a great price or in better condition than the one I have, in which case the original probably gets sold. And that is really speaking about older, collector pieces.

I certainly don't buy doubles for tactical reasons, though I know some who do. If something breaks, well, I have enough guns and practice enough that I'll get something different out until I get it fixed. If it breaks in competition it doesn't matter that much since I'm not a serious contender for any prizes. And if it breaks in the middle of a gunfight then I guess my time is up.

I'd rather buy something different rather than stocking up on the same guns I already bought once. There is too many things that I want but don't have yet.

RX-178
February 24, 2011, 10:47 AM
I guess I do. I mean, I keep what amounts to a backup set of my EDC stuff in my jacket. Two flashlights, (at least) two knives, two multitools, etc.

22-rimfire
February 24, 2011, 10:53 AM
In your case, I can see why you might choose to do this. Plus there is the fact that if you all are out shooting, there are guns for everyone. So, maybe 3 or 4 is 1 in your case. To me, that would be far more useful than planning for death. I prefer to plan for life.

yeti
February 24, 2011, 10:59 AM
I understand it, and some worry wart, OCD part of my brain does buy into it and likes having things in pairs. I think, for most of life, a more practical wording of the old saw should be: 2 is 1, but 1 is better than none.

Readyrod
February 24, 2011, 10:59 AM
Sorry for being dumb but could someone explain this one to me? Does this saying just mean to have a backup? ( I get the 80/20 rule and the 6 degrees of separation thing but I'm not sure about 2 is 1, 1 is none)

22-rimfire
February 24, 2011, 11:08 AM
He's buying duplicates so he can give his children equal guns when he dies or chooses to gift them.

Readyrod
February 24, 2011, 11:18 AM
He's buying duplicates so he can give his children equal guns when he dies or chooses to gift them.

I got that part , I'm just wondering about the saying cause I've seen it before. As for duplicates I understand. My two sons are still young but I still need to buy duplicates or there is heck to pay.

yeti
February 24, 2011, 12:26 PM
I'm just wondering about the saying cause I've seen it before.

If you have 2 guns, or 2 mags, or 2 knives, or 2 cars, and one breaks you still have one functioning thing-a-ma-jig left; if you only have one and it goes down you are left with none.

Onward Allusion
February 24, 2011, 12:30 PM
rocinante (http://www.thehighroad.org/member.php?u=42256)
2 is 1, 1 is none.
Anybody else buy into that old saw? Lately I have been doubling up on stuff. My best 'rational' is I have two sons and I want each to have some of the same thing.

Not just doubling up. My Kryptonite is S&W 59 Series (1st thru 3rd including value-line) & Sigmas (go figure). You would think they were bunnies in the safe...

InkEd
February 24, 2011, 12:55 PM
Yeah, it's an old "carry a back-up gun" phrase. That is the
common usage.

In regards to the OP, I see the thought behind it BUT the main reason IMHO that inherited guns (or anything really) mean so much to people is because of the memories they invoke of the past. If you simply buy two of everything because you want things 50/50, it seems to kind of lessen the sentiment. It's more like you're just splitting up money opposed to a fond memory. Just my .02 about it.

youngda9
February 24, 2011, 01:05 PM
A lot of catchy sayings out there...that are worthless.

If you really believe that #1 is unreliable then you should not be carrying it.

I'm sure Clint believes that you must carry two, and I'm sure that he preaches this in his courses, and makes money doing so.

The NY reload is the fastest. But for civilians I don't believe it is necessary. Look at the small odds of ever needing your defensive weapon, the odds are small if you pull it that you need to fire it(most of the time the site of one is enough to send the BG running), if you do pull the trigger what are the odds that it jams or doesn't fire AND a tap-rack won't clear it(carry a reliable tested firearm). Most SD shootings are over in <3 rounds also, stats show that as well.

It's all just too little of a chance that you'd ever need it...at least in the circles that I travel. But if you feel better carrying 2, that's your choice. But if you're operating on the premise that you really believe #1 will jam(and can't be fixed by tap-rack), then you should not be carrying an un-reliable weapon and you should have the same belief about #2 I would think.

Claude Clay
February 24, 2011, 01:14 PM
i carry a secondary gun cause life comes at ua from every which way. so to be be able to respond accordingly i carry something for each side of me.

kingpin008
February 24, 2011, 01:34 PM
Not me. I don't have the money to just have extra guns and parts laying around. It'd be nice and all, just completely impractical for me at the moment.

And honestly, even if I had the money to do so, I think I'd rather spend the money on different guns, and just stock a selection of replacement parts for each, rather than multiples of each one.

CraigC
February 24, 2011, 01:51 PM
If you really believe that #1 is unreliable then you should not be carrying it.

A gun is only reliable until it fails and any gun can fail at any time. Clint's preaching about stacking the odds in your favor and I wonder how exactly that makes him money??? I don't carry two but I do so with the knowledge that if my one and only gun fails, I'm left with a pocket knife if the fight is unfinished.

c1ogden
February 24, 2011, 01:52 PM
I have always had backup guns but they were not always identical. My S&W Model 15 was the backup to my Model 19 that I carried on duty. I still have backups for almost all of my guns that might be used for "social" purposes.

Since I have 2 daughters I have also been acquiring duplicates of some of the others so that they'' each get a good start in the shooting world.

Cosmoline
February 24, 2011, 01:59 PM
I've heard Clint on this topic, and I don't get the sense that the main concern is an unreliable No. 1 gun. The issue has more to do with what position you'll find yourself in. For example, if you're on the ground (esp with an attacker on top) getting to a WB piece may be difficult, but if you have a backup on the ankle it's right there in front of you. I also don't think he's "making money" on this idea. He doesn't push the latest and greatest firearms, quite the contrary.

Also, don't think for a second that DROPPING a firearm isn't a risk. In the insanity of the moment that's happened before, esp. if you're getting physically assaulted or shot at. I know one case where a fellow confronting a charging sow THREW a perfectly good shotgun at the bear. Weird stuff happens.

youngda9
February 24, 2011, 02:17 PM
The issue has more to do with what position you'll find yourself in. For example, if you're on the ground (esp with an attacker on top) getting to a WB piece may be difficult, but if you have a backup on the ankle it's right there in front of you. I also don't think he's "making money" on this idea.

Sure he is...he's charging money to teach all of those fancy firing positions, drawing from the back-up ankle holster on the ground, out of the pocket descretely, under deress while wrestling, left handed using your backup since your primary is disabled, etc. You nearly said as much in your post.

He is a trainer. It would not be in his best interest to preach one on the hip is more than you'll ever need.

Cosmoline
February 24, 2011, 02:28 PM
Clint's approach is to teach a wide array of methods for everything from loading to drawing. He's not a guy who teaches one method and one carry position, as some might. To me that adds value to the training. I'm not sure how teaching *fewer* options would be better. NY reloads aside, not everyone carries on the waistband or can in their day-to-day lives.

youngda9
February 24, 2011, 02:40 PM
Agreed.

I did a search to find some of his comments on the subject:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_2_54/ai_n21175823/

"Often I am questioned about the concept of a backup gun. Fundamentally this weapon is put into play, when the primary defense tool has failed to do its job from a ballistic point or view or is broke or has run out of ammunition or maybe even because access to the primary weapon is impaired or impossible due lo injury or physical contact with a threat"

X-Rap
February 24, 2011, 02:55 PM
Has anybody ever picked up a flashlight in their house or vehicle to find it is dead? Have you ever left your knife laying on fender or bumper or perhaps laying on the ground after you have dressed out a deer? That is what the 2 is 1, 1 is none means to me. I also take it to guns in that I try to keep a second one fairly close, that might mean back in the bedroom or in the truck. I also include an extra mag or reload. Basically the preparedness mindset is healthy if for no other reason than thinking ahead and processing the inevitable shortages and breakdowns that seem to happen with regularity in life.

rugerdude
February 24, 2011, 03:29 PM
So many people get into an asinine level of preparedness for something they are far less likely to experience than say, a car accident.

Do you wear two seatbelts? What if that first one breaks? Do you ever clean your seatbelt? Have you tested it regularly? Have you practiced rapidly exiting your vehicle through say, the opposite side window in case of a car fire after a wreck has disabled your door?

Probably not, yet so many people look a a guy teaching a weak hand draw with their backup gun and think "Oh yeah, I totally see that happening, you can never be too prepared."

I understand that for some people, it is their job to be prepared this way (I'm a Recon Marine, so it is certainly part of mine), but I think too much emphasis to put on cutting out that .00001% chance of gun failure in firing 3 rounds when you're more than prepared enough with any gun at all on a day-to-day basis living a normal American life.

Besides, if you get hit in the back of the head with a wrench, it doesn't matter how many guns you have or fancy draws you know.

killchain
February 24, 2011, 03:33 PM
I cannot believe everyone is arguing about this.

What is the harm in having extra? Do you just buy enough for one meal to stock in your pantry? Do you put exactly the amount of gasoline needed in your car to go to work for one day?

No. Because if you do, you're probably an idiot.

Course, you wouldn't buy two of the same car to have on in reserve NORMALLY. I know some guys who have parts cars, and that's cool. But they didn't buy the car so they could switch it out when it runs out of gas.

I don't own two of the same pistol. But I own at least two magazines for it. I do usually buy what I'm going to shoot at the range plus a box to stuff away.

It's a good rule of thumb to have extra.

And on the side note of trainers milking money, before you point at Clint Smith you should take a good hard look at companies like Magpul. Every three months or so they make some chintzy plastic part, use it in front of a camera, and everyone buys it. Doesn't matter if it works or not.

Some of their ideas have been good, such as Pmags. But swappable trigger guards? Really? That new angled grip thing drives me nuts... if you like to grab your AR that way, grab the tac light I have a suspicious feeling you have on it already. And lego camo colored handguards?

And the MOE... seriously, why not get some A1 handguards?

Oh man I gotta stop. When I think of the hordes that are busily buying up everything Costa wears I start getting high blood pressure. Sorry for going off topic.

ColtPythonElite
February 24, 2011, 03:38 PM
In hand guns, I have 7 different "sets of twos"...I figure I've got one of each for each hand.

Kenneth
February 24, 2011, 04:13 PM
I do not yet have enough guns to grasp the concept of "too many guns". My research continues.


"Our wrongs we must right if we can through the Ballot Box, and if this fails us, through the Cartridge Box."

U.S. Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story wrote;

Bula
February 24, 2011, 04:20 PM
Very well put Rugerdude.

rocinante
February 24, 2011, 05:48 PM
In hand guns, I have 7 different "sets of twos"...I figure I've got one of each for each hand.

I sold a beautiful pair of stainless vaqueros and ended up buying a pair of police trade in stainless S&W 5906. So I can buy your rational.

Cosmoline
February 24, 2011, 06:55 PM
Do you wear two seatbelts?

Aside from the shoulder and lap restraint, modern autos have airbags. So yeah you have the main one, and a backup.

I don't think it would take much searching to find cases where primary firearms have been knocked out of even trained hands, lost, damaged or just flat out taken off the victim.

rugerdude
February 24, 2011, 09:01 PM
Sure Cosmoline, most cars have that backup but nobody seems to put the effort into researching and testing those simple lifesavers like they do with firearms, which are much less likely to be needed.

Do you know the manufacturer of your airbags? Have you gathered information on their reputation for reliability? What about that seat belt? Would you buy an aftermarket buckle if it was proven to be more effective?

I would say that 99.9% of people couldn't answer yes to any of that (myself included) because at some point we have to accept that there is risk associated with living. "I train to live" can only go to a certain extent can't it?

By the same logic as 2 is one, I could say that 3 is one and use the same arguments for it. It's just all about cutting that risk down and down and down, which is fine. Carry 12 guns, put one in every room of your house and 5 in your car, but let's face it, that's ridiculous right?

We all draw the line somewhere don't we? Some draw it at carrying a gun at all. I personally draw it at carrying 2 guns (as a civilian), others may draw it at three.

In the end my point is this: Recognize 1 as 1, no more and no less. Make it a good one if it's something important. You've got a lot more to worry about before worrying that your primary fails in the unlikely event that you even use it.

QUICK_DRAW_McGRAW
February 24, 2011, 10:57 PM
nope, carry one gun, one knife, one cell phone, one set of keys.

JohnBiltz
February 25, 2011, 06:07 AM
I carry one gun although I think carrying a small BUG makes more sense than carrying a spare magazine. I own two identical carry guns though. Not having a carry gun available is just something I don't want to happen and I'm fairly particular at this point on what I want to carry.

leadcounsel
February 25, 2011, 08:23 AM
I interpret the saying to mean that if you have a critical piece of survival gear, say for instance a lighter or a water purifyier, hat and gloves (in the winter) or in this case a gun, for which you absolutely cannot survive without, then you need to have two in the event you lose one or it fails/breaks/whatever...

It's actually a worthy statement. Of course you cannot have redundancies of everything (not practical) but you should have redundancies of the MOST important items for any situation where it the result of not having a backup is grave.

22-rimfire
February 25, 2011, 09:28 AM
I interpret the saying to mean that if you have a critical piece of survival gear, say for instance a lighter or a water purifyier, hat and gloves (in the winter) or in this case a gun, for which you absolutely cannot survive without, then you need to have two in the event you lose one or it fails/breaks/whatever...

Good point. I have redundancy in critical pieces of equipment that I use on a nearly daily basis. It often means a trip back to the shop, but not the store. I don't really subscribe to this when it comes to a carry weapon, but then I do have several for this purpose. I just have my favorites and stick to them. I would be just as likely to not be carrying as carrying if something actually happened. I just don't like to carry a gun unless I see a situation that sings "need" for me and it is mostly in work situations where sometimes I have to go places I would never normally go. Life has risks.

mister2
February 25, 2011, 10:11 AM
In my current situation, I probably need a second set of car keys or a third set of readers before I need a second gun. Logic and reason seem like a good check and balance. The important thing is to have a gun when one needs it.

YMMV

Cosmoline
February 25, 2011, 01:11 PM
Carry 12 guns, put one in every room of your house and 5 in your car, but let's face it, that's ridiculous right?


Sure, but nobody is suggesting you keep that many firearms laying around. Or ANY firearms laying around. The issue is whether to have a BUG on your person. The loss, failure or unavailability of the main firearm is something that actually happens. Training for the possibility is not a bad idea, and carrying a BUG is a way of bypassing some of those potential problems.

mustang_steve
February 25, 2011, 06:34 PM
I don't double up as I only carry what I feel is reliable enough to carry in the first place.

The only thing that I'd replace in my EDC is my flashlight, the switch is finally dying on it....oh well, $10 and I'll have a new one.

Sheepdog1968
February 25, 2011, 09:22 PM
There are a few things I own that I really really enjoy. For those I've been thinking of buying a spare one just in case the primary one breaks.

scaatylobo
February 25, 2011, 09:59 PM
I am of the belief that the expression is one taken from survival circles.

And I for one believe in it,2 fire starters,2 ways to mae a shelter,2 knives [ at least ], 2 guns [ NYC reload ],2 ways to get water.

Well I guess you get the idea,I am all for it.

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