[BamBam-31]

Aside from five zit-like cuts on my forehead, I'm okay. Thank goodness.

The rifle, however, has been having problems extracting, I believe. Last time out, I had two FTE's with the first two shots, then about 50 shots fired without a hitch (all using Yugo surplus). I thought maybe there was too much CLP on the extractor. Today, I fired only about a dozen shots (half Yugo, half newly loaded 8mm). With the new 8mm, I had the out of battery.

I pulled the trigger, and after the first bang, a second quick pop. Felt like something flashed across my forehead, so I stopped. Two spent cases stuck in the receiver--the first is the fired case with a mangled throat and rim, the second is the out of battery (I think) with a grotesquely expanded neck.

Okay, what happened, and is this rifle safe to fire? The barrel is relatively new and the bolt is mismatched, so I had it headspaced by my smith. It closed on a no-go gauge but not on a makeshift field gauge. Might this be the problem? Or is it a bad extractor (first round didn't eject completely, second round slammed into first and firing pin ignited it)? Dunno. All I know is I'm not seriously hurt, and neither is the rifle, as far as I can tell. Happened so fast, I wasn't scared til about five minutes later.

Then, I looked like this: :what:

Anyhoo, I don't want to give up on the rifle yet, but I don't want to tempt fate any more than necessary, either. Can I save this rifle?

TIA

[Trebor]

I've seen reports of FN 49's come up on numerous gunboards in the last year to two years. They have ALL involved 8mm rifles. I know that the Eygptian 8mm FN 49 does not have a spring-loaded firing pin and it has been speculated that that was part of the problem.

Sorry I can't be of more help, but I suggest you do a search of the big gunboards and see what you find. I know it's come up on the Fal Files and I believe either here are at TFL as well.

[Cosmoline]

I believe you can fix this problem by installing a two-piece "safety" firing pin. There are kits around if you search google a bit.

That said if you've got a non-matching bolt and some iffy headspace, I wouldn't fire it. It's one thing to push the envelope with a Mauser '98, but I wouldn't do it with a semi at that power level.

[Jim K]

Hi, Bam-Bam,

Can you look at the case that let go outside the chamber and see if the primer is dented and if so, what the dent looks like? That might at least provide a start at analysis of the problem. You say "newly loaded"; do you mean reloads or just recent date factory ammo?

I am aware of some questions about those rifles in 8mm, but this does not sound like a round was chambered and the rifle fired with the bolt closed but unlocked, the normal condition under which firing pin creep would occur. When that happens, the result is usually pretty disastrous, with a split stock, blown magazine, etc.

Instead, this seems like the round that went off was all or almost all outside the chamber and it popped with no damage to the rifle. I rather suspect that the first round failed to extract, then the second was pushed up against it by the bolt. When the second round stopped, the bolt somehow impacted the primer (a high primer?) and fired it. If that happened, the unconfined round would simply split open and do no damage except throwing out flying pieces of brass and burning powder granules, which could cause the "zits" on your forehead.

BTW, I hope you were wearing shooting glasses or goggles; if not, now you know why you should have been.

Jim

[BamBam-31]

Jim, that sounds like what happened exactly. By newly loaded, I meant newly manufactured 8mm soft points. Both spent cases had the primers struck by the firing pin. Powder granules everywhere, inside and out. I was wearing my shooting glasses and a cap pulled low, but I still got tagged.

So what does that mean? Bad extractor? Is the rifle salvagable, then?

[Beetle Bailey]

I was two benches over from where BamBam-31 had the explosion. Thanks for your concern, Jim. He was indeed wearing glasses as he and any shooter always does. His "new reloaded" 8mm comes from a ammo dealer at a gunshow. I guess BamBam-31 can double-check the brass since he saved it to take to his gunsmith as evidence, but I thought it was the Yugo surplus and not the gunshow reloads. Either way, it was pretty scary.

[JohnKSa]

Yugo surplus tends to have primers seated deeper than flush. I'd suspect the reloads...

[BamBam-31]

Not reloads. Newly manufactured soft points. Made by Miwall Ammo Corp. Now that I think about it, when I used this stuff in my Persian Mauser, the bolt was harder to close than with the Yugo. Mebbe their primers are high.

[telewinz]

I have first hand experience with both conditions, sounds like a hang-fire is involved. Were you using standard primers with slow burning ball powder? If the 8mm had gone off out of battery you would have a wrecked rifle and a magazine that looked like a pancake and 1st degree burns on you left forearm. Your face (head) would/should be fine due to the rifle design. Powder all over the place ect. indicates incomplete powder burning caused by defective primer, damp powder, or slow burning powder with a standard primer. This combination would also account for the poor extraction.

This is why you NEVER grip the magazine of a rifle when shooting. I had just reminded myself not to hold onto it (bad habit) when the next round blew-up the rifle. I would not have a left hand had I been holding onto the magazine. 50,000+CUP sounds even more impressive after viewing the damage it can do (popped the bullets out of the unfired rounds). BTW it was an M14 type rifle that was exchanged by the maker free of charge.

[cabinetman]

Glad you're ok.

It's been recommended that shooters do not hold magazines nor place their hands below the receivers on our milsurps precisely because of the chance of an out-of-battery firing. Think of the M1 Garand and that big metal plate. Now, I've altered my hold position further forward.

Regarding the FN49, yes, a two piece firing pin is a MUST for these rifles. A one piece can slam fire on you if it becomes worn or jambed. A two piece fp will eliminate that problem.

Finally, I have one rule of life when it comes to every single one of my military semi-autos. I ALWAYS shoot military surplus ammo, period. I'll never put commercial ammo in any of my firearms just to avoid issues like ticklish primer, soft or thin brass, improper commercial powders, or soft-tipped bullets. There is a million tons of 8mm military surplus out there, some of which is really nice and priced low. I'd highly recommend that you stick with that and you oob firing situation will be reduced by a factor of 100.

My question for you is did the stock get broken? Just curious. Glad you were wearing glasses!!

Rome

[Beetle Bailey]

BamBam-31 is having trouble with his computer so he asked me to post for him. He says the stock is fine, as is the magazine, but the rear of the reciever got bent a little and he had to gently hammer it back into place. The FN-49 is currently at a gunsmith's shop where the guy is going to defer to one of his gunsmith buddies who is supposed to be an expert on military rifles. It might be a while before the fate of the rifle will be known, but the important thing is that BamBam-31 is doing fine. On his behalf, I will thank all boardmembers for their help and concern ;) .

[cabinetman]

That's good to hear. I was only concerned because I'd worked on another FN49 stock that had had a similar experience. Again, the shooter was unscathed, but the stock didn't fare so well.

Let us know how you make out.

Rome

[Kevlarman]

Eep. Sorry to hear about what happened. Glad everyone is OK.

It was fun to shoot though!

[Beetle Bailey]

Yeah, that FN-49 is sure fun. It's like an SKS on steroids, except more accurate ;) . I mean, life is good with a 8mm plinker and all that cheap surplus 8mm ammo. Of course, no rifle is worth anything if it isn't safe so hopefully the gunsmith will give the rifle a clean bill of health, so to speak :) .

[Jim K]

Hi, telewinz and guys,

What you are describing is a chambered round going off without the bolt being locked. That is the classic "out of battery" situation and will indeed wreck the rifle, since the charge is confined by the chamber and pressure can build up. But if I understand correctly, the situation here is not the same.

What I am thinking is that one round was chambered and fired normally, with the gas piston and the bolt operating normally, except that the empty case, for reasons unknown, did not extract.

The forward moving bolt picked up a fresh round, but was unable to chamber it because the fired case was still in the chamber, so the fresh round stopped and the bolt slammed its base. The live round was now squeezed between the bolt and the base of the empty case in the chamber.

Whether the firing pin crept forward and fired that round, or the bolt face impacted on a high or especially sensitive primer, the round went off sitting on top of the magazine and almost totally unconfined. This is not very different from a round being set off on a hotplate, something used to show that unconfined ammunition in a fire will not project a bullet or "explode".

Here the bullet could not move, being jammed against the chambered case, so the case of the new round simply burst or blew out around it, blowing burning powder and maybe pieces of brass around. Damage would have been minimal, although injury to the shooter could have been more serious if safety precautions had not been taken.

This does not, of course, solve the extraction problem, nor does it fully explain what set off the fresh round. If the fresh (second) round had a primer indented by the firing pin, then I think there is little doubt that the firing pin crept forward when the bolt stopped, something that should not have happened and could indicate a missing or weak firing pin spring, or failure of the firing pin block.

Jim

[telewinz]

Certainly is possible in which case I'd suspect a defective extractor, not soft brass. Its a cheap fix. Still don't understand how enough pressure could be generated to cause the receiver to "bend"? This may have been a pre-existing condition that was only noticed by the gunsmith.

[BamBam-31]

Back from the dead, guys. Computer's up and running again.

It sounds to me like Jim's assessment is closest in my estimation. There were two clear firing pin indentations on both fired cases. My FN-49 is the Egyptian variety with the two piece firing pin. I will be ordering a new extractor and extractor spring post haste.

Telewinz, I don't think the bent receiver was a pre-existing condition. Before, the bolt would slide back and forth freely, and the receiver cover came on and off easily. Now, after the mishap, the bolt binds against the left side of the receiver (no longer, after I banged on it with a brass punch), and the receiver cover needs a rubber mallet to coax it off. I think things were blown all out of whack dimensionally.

Which leads me to ask again: Is this rifle safe to fire? I think before it was probably an extractor/extractor spring problem (a cheap and easy fix, as noted earlier). Now, though, if things are askew with the receiver, should I trust its structural integrity? We are talking 8mm here, right?

Like Beetle said, thanks for all the feedback, guys.

[telewinz]

If thats what happened to cause your receiver to "bend" alittle, my respect for the FN49 just doubled!:what: My M14 did alot more then bend the receiver when it blew. You have a "magic" rifle, I'd get it fixed by a gunsmith and pass it on to your grandchildren 50 years from now. You have heard of 1 in a 1000 Winchesters? Well your FN49 (and mine?) rates right up there. Consider your incident a test, it passed with flying colors. Have it checked with a go-no go chamber gauge, I bet it passes fine.
BTW, I had a carbine fire out of battery. It took a mallet to open the action. The case didn't rupture but it came out looking like a "belted" 30 carbine case. I fired hundreds of more rounds through it with no problem.

[Jim K]

As I noted, I don't think that was a case of true "out of battery" fire. I did have a real "out of battery" fire with an AG42B a while back. The case head blew out, the stock was splintered, the magazine destroyed, and the side rails bulged. I used a vise to restore the shape of the side rails, and replaced the stock and magazine. I did fire it a few times just to check it, but then put it in the collection rack.

A blowup does tend to startle one a bit, though the only injury was my smarting palm from a piece of the stock hitting it on the way to the next bench (which fortunately was not occupied).

I also had an SMLE Mk III let go when firing some hot 7.7 Italian MG ammo. The case compressed, the receiver sprung, the magazine was destroyed, and the extractor went gone. But, incredibly, the receiver came back right, and it took only a few whacks with a hammer to get it back into proper headspace. It too, was later fired extensively with proper ammo. I shot up the rest of the MG stuff in a Model 1910 Ross, which wasn't bothered at all.

Jim