Recourse in FFL transfer


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mike4330
February 25, 2011, 07:00 PM
Hello folks,

I am attempting to purchase my first handgun. I bought online and have had it shipped to a local FFL gun range who is giving me the run around about when I can pick up my handgun. It was delivered on Tuesday, and now on Friday it's still not ready.

My question for the forum members is, do I have any recourse here? It seems like these guys can keep my gun as long as they like.

Any recommendations?

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newfalguy101
February 25, 2011, 07:06 PM
Ask em what the hold-up is.

I wonder if maybe the gun showed up without an FFL or other pertinent info from the seller.

Whenever I do a transfer, I call my customer as soon as the gun shows up, I have on more than one occasion, logged guns in then out to my customer within hours of receipt.

Shadow 7D
February 25, 2011, 07:40 PM
call the owner, the call the ATF and explain that the FFL has your gun on his books and refuses to do the transfer

He only has two ways to clear the gun, send it back to the original owner, or transfer it out to you. I would go to the shop and wait, might take a little while, but it's hard to say you don't have time when the place is empty....

mike4330
February 25, 2011, 07:43 PM
Thanks for the advice!

kingpin008
February 25, 2011, 07:44 PM
Whoa, whoa - let's not go involving the ATF unless we have to, huh?

OP - What reason has the shop given you for not allowing you to pick up your gun? It could be any number of things, and telling us that you found out it's "not ready" yet isn't too helpful. Depending on what their answer was when you called/visited to pick it up, we can help you out - but more info is definitely necessary.

NavyLCDR
February 25, 2011, 09:13 PM
He only has two ways to clear the gun, send it back to the original owner

Once he accepts delivery, the FFL must enter the gun in his bound book and then sending the gun back to the original owner is no longer a legal option.

nalioth
February 25, 2011, 09:42 PM
He only has two ways to clear the gun, send it back to the original owner
Once he accepts delivery, the FFL must enter the gun in his bound book and then sending the gun back to the original owner is no longer a legal option.I see we're exercising again (jumping to conclusions).

The OP did not state who he bought the gun from, just that he did it online.

An FFL can return a gun purchased from another FFL (such as Bud's) to the shipping FFL.

NavyLCDR
February 25, 2011, 10:14 PM
I see we're exercising again (jumping to conclusions).

The OP did not state who he bought the gun from, just that he did it online.

An FFL can return a gun purchased from another FFL (such as Bud's) to the shipping FFL.

True. Good point...

mike4330
February 25, 2011, 10:22 PM
Hi guys, I bought the firearm from Bud's Gun shop who had this shop listed as a "preferred FFL" so that no prior notification was necessary. Apparently this was news to the shop.

According to the shop, I was supposed to have notified the shop ahead of time and filled out a form before they could log it in. Also apparently they only have one staff member who can log transfers, and he only works sporadically.

My feeling is that this is pretty poor customer service. I choose this shop because I had planned to join as a member there.

Should I contact Bud's to complain?

Thanks again!

browneu
February 25, 2011, 10:38 PM
Unfortunately, the preferred FFL on Bud's means that they've shipped a gun to that FFL and it's still valid.

Contacting Bud's isn't likely to do anything. I would continue to work with the shop and take this as a lesson learned. Out of courtesy you should always contact the receiving FFL.

nalioth
February 25, 2011, 10:39 PM
Hi guys, I bought the firearm from Bud's Gun shop who had this shop listed as a "preferred FFL" so that no prior notification was necessary. Apparently this was news to the shop.

According to the shop, I was supposed to have notified the shop ahead of time and filled out a form before they could log it in. Also apparently they only have one staff member who can log transfers, and he only works sporadically.

My feeling is that this is pretty poor customer service. I choose this shop because I had planned to join as a member there.

Should I contact Bud's to complain?

Thanks again!From what you've said, you need to tell them to return the gun to Buds and choose another FFL to have it shipped to.

From what you've said, the gun shop is operating illegally.

atblis
February 25, 2011, 11:18 PM
How much are they charging you for the transfer?

kingpin008
February 25, 2011, 11:38 PM
I'm gonna agree with Nalioth on this one. Have them send the gun back to Bud's, and find another shop to work with.

Also, Atblis is right - you need to arrange the transfer with the receiving shop first, and then purchase it. Otherwise, how are they supposed to know to expect your gun?

Bubbles
February 25, 2011, 11:56 PM
We are a Bud's "Preferred FFL". They called us before we got that status to let us know, and to verify our transfer fees and policies. Bud's also always provides paperwork on who purchased the gun and the purchaser's contact info. They are one one of the easiest companies to deal with for transfers.

If the dealer doesn't want to be on that list they should call Bud's and ask to be removed from it. Actually the OP could also let Bud's know that the dealer shouldn't be on the preferred list.

Don't have the gun shipped back to Bud's, have it sent to Virginia Arms (http://virginiaarms.com/) for the transfer. They have A+ customer service.

Sunray
February 26, 2011, 12:01 AM
"...only have one staff member who can log transfers...no prior notification was necessary..." There's something fishy about that. The notification thing doesn't sound right either. The dealer you used listed in green on Bud's list? Bud's site also says to contact the dealer before ordering from Bud's.
Mind you, we don't have the FFL transfer nonsense, up here. Ownership change paperwork gets done and the firearm is shipped directly to you.
I'd be on the phone to Bud's. If another dealer is giving his customers grief, he'll want to know about it.

crazy-mp
February 26, 2011, 12:41 AM
You should have told the dealer who was receiving your gun that you had one coming. If the seller did not put info in there how are they supposed to know who it is being transfered for?

Sounds like you got yourself into this one, and you really are at the mercy of the gun shop now.

What can you do? Well you can wait for them to log your firearm, and have them transfer it to you when they are ready. Next time you might want to notify a ffl that there will be a gun arriving for you and give them as much info as you can.

Do you know the person who sent Bud's gun shop the original FFL? How do you know that was not the owner or one of his regular customers that sent the FFL? I have seen dealers charge out the nose (100.00) for FFL transfers if you use their license without letting them know, because technically that is illegal. I know 100 percent without a doubt that my local FFL dealer can order guns through S.O.G., and I can order guns and have them shipped to him, but he knows that I tell him when I order something and he called SOG and lets me use his FFL as a transfer. Which normally cost me 15.00.

Good luck...

nalioth
February 26, 2011, 12:51 AM
You should have told the dealer who was receiving your gun that you had one coming. If the seller did not put info in there how are they supposed to know who it is being transfered for?

Sounds like you got yourself into this one, and you really are at the mercy of the gun shop now.

What can you do? Well you can wait for them to log your firearm, and have them transfer it to you when they are ready. Next time you might want to notify a ffl that there will be a gun arriving for you and give them as much info as you can.

Do you know the person who sent Bud's gun shop the original FFL? How do you know that was not the owner or one of his regular customers that sent the FFL? I have seen dealers charge out the nose (100.00) for FFL transfers if you use their license without letting them know, because technically that is illegal. I know 100 percent without a doubt that my local FFL dealer can order guns through S.O.G., and I can order guns and have them shipped to him, but he knows that I tell him when I order something and he called SOG and lets me use his FFL as a transfer. Which normally cost me 15.00.

Good luck...Good luck? Did you actually read any of what was written?

Bud's suggested the FFL to the OP - He did not pick them.

If the gun shop charged the OP $100 (or any extra amount) because "someone else" sent them their FFL, that's plumb crazy. Also, it's not illegal for you (or "someone else") to send a copy of an FFL's license to any FFL holder. What's illegal is sending a FORGED copy of an FFL to any FFL holder.

mcdonl
February 26, 2011, 08:00 AM
This comes as no surprise to most, but I recommend a different approach. Stick with this transfer... you can always choose not to use them in the future. You made some mistakes, and they made some mistakes. Perhaps this relationship started off on the wrong foot.

If you go in there with a good attitude, maybe in the end you will have a good relationship. If not... well... at least you tried.

R0CKETMAN
February 26, 2011, 08:51 AM
Is there a waiting period?...I skimmed...little early to be calling ATF lol..

Have you tried FTF?

mgkdrgn
February 26, 2011, 11:29 AM
From what you've said, you need to tell them to return the gun to Buds and choose another FFL to have it shipped to.

From what you've said, the gun shop is operating illegally.
I'll give you dollars to donuts that the gun didn't -actually- come from Buds ... it came from Sports South as a drop ship.

NOW who does it go back to? And who will pay for the shipping?

22-rimfire
February 26, 2011, 12:49 PM
I am attempting to purchase my first handgun. I bought online and have had it shipped to a local FFL gun range who is giving me the run around about when I can pick up my handgun. It was delivered on Tuesday, and now on Friday it's still not ready.


I feel you should ALWAYS contact the dealer BEFORE making the deal with Buds or anyone else that will be shipping a firearm to them. It is just good practice. The gunshop may in fact have a problem with transfers of new guns that they routinely sell. It is a good thing to know ahead of time.

I suspect that preferred simply means they have a copy of their FFL in their files.

I'd do whatever the local FFL asks. If that bugs you, then try to look at it from their point of view.

BlkHawk73
February 26, 2011, 01:34 PM
A BIG reason why it's best to know your dealer before any such transfer. You always contact the parties involved so they're not surprised by any arrivals. I would really see the dealer as having poor customer service anymore than I would the customer not doing thier part.

nalioth
February 26, 2011, 02:48 PM
From what you've said, you need to tell them to return the gun to Buds and choose another FFL to have it shipped to.

From what you've said, the gun shop is operating illegally.
I'll give you dollars to donuts that the gun didn't -actually- come from Buds ... it came from Sports South as a drop ship.

NOW who does it go back to? And who will pay for the shipping?You and I both know the gun came from an FFL holder somewhere, on request of Bud's. Since Bud's holds an FFL, it could be shipped back to them, or back to the wholesaler where it was drop-shipped from.

Myself, If I witnessed the behavior described in the OP's posts, I'd want it sent to a legitimately operating FFL holder, and would provide the LGS with a prepaid USPS flat rate box for that purpose.

jonmerritt
February 26, 2011, 04:44 PM
I go to the dealr first"can I do an FFL transfer on a blah bluh firearm from goodys sales?"
Gun dealer says"sure you can"
I contact the dealer once I put the order through, that way they know it's on it's way and who it's for. Then I just wait for the phone call telling me my new howitzer has arrived.
Or in the process of all this, the dealer has one, or can order it for me and maybe save a couple of bucks. Or it may cost a couple of bucks more, he has to eat too.
Always check with the dealer first on every FFL transfer!

Average Joe
February 26, 2011, 05:18 PM
After all these posts, I still don't know the reason why the FFL is holding up your transfer, please explain....

nalioth
February 26, 2011, 05:46 PM
After all these posts, I still don't know the reason why the FFL is holding up your transfer, please explain....

It was explained by the OP (based on what the OP was told) in post #9 (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7123533&postcount=9).

22-rimfire
February 26, 2011, 06:06 PM
I re-read the various posts. At this point, I would plead mercy an apologize for my ignorance of proper precedures and hope they transfer the gun to you. You do know you have to complete a Form 4473 at the FFL dealer and get approved via the NICS check, right?

You don't have much leverage on this deal... Buds has your money and the dealer has your gun... lovely.

mike4330
February 26, 2011, 11:21 PM
bud's website says specifically that you do not need to contact the dealer ahead of time. Remember I am complete newbie to this. Bud's is a leading online dealer, so I perhaps foolishly assumed that if they say it on their website it must be true. See here (http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/ffl.php)

I have called this shop twice and gave them my info and they said they will call when it is ready, called first on tuesday, then on thursday, and still no call.

So my plan for tomorrow is to head there early and try to get in before they get busy. I tried going today, but it was so crowded I couldn't get in the front door.

Plus just for fun, their transfer is twice the going rate.

Thanks to all for their input!

kingpin008
February 26, 2011, 11:26 PM
Um, mike - it says "You don't need to contact a preferred dealer" - meaning, you don't have to go through a FFL on their list of preferred dealers. You can choose any FFL you wish.

Also, right underneath that, in HUGE letters, is the following:

Please Verify that the FFL dealer is still in operation before you choose them. Please contact them before notifying us of your choice.

Emphasis on the underlined bit. You must contact the receiving FFL before arranging a shipment to them from any dealer, including Bud's.

crazy-mp
February 26, 2011, 11:34 PM
Emphasis on the underlined bit. You must contact the receiving FFL before arranging a shipment to them from any dealer, including Bud's.


BUT BUT BUT, nalioth said I could use anybodys FFL I wanted to :banghead:

Bubbles
February 26, 2011, 11:36 PM
You must contact the receiving FFL before arranging a shipment to them from any dealer, including Bud's.
No law requires a heads-up to the receiving dealer. Their own policies might, though. We ask our customers to give us a heads up, but don't get all PO'ed when something arrives unexpectedly. If we did we'd stroke out in a month.

oneounceload
February 26, 2011, 11:41 PM
I go to the dealr first"can I do an FFL transfer on a blah bluh firearm from goodys sales?"
Gun dealer says"sure you can"
I contact the dealer once I put the order through, that way they know it's on it's way and who it's for. Then I just wait for the phone call telling me my new howitzer has arrived.
Or in the process of all this, the dealer has one, or can order it for me and maybe save a couple of bucks. Or it may cost a couple of bucks more, he has to eat too.
Always check with the dealer first on every FFL transfer!

No law requires a heads-up to the receiving dealer. Their own policies might, though. We ask our customers to give us a heads up, but don't get all PO'ed when something arrives unexpectedly. If we did we'd stroke out in a month.

Since the shipper needs a copy of the receiving FFL on file BEFORE they ship, if your FFL is not a current customer of the company you bought the gun from, how did it get shipped in the first place?

If they are a current customer, then what is the hold up for, uinless there is a background check issue

kingpin008
February 26, 2011, 11:44 PM
No law requires a heads-up to the receiving dealer. Their own policies might, though. We ask our customers to give us a heads up, but don't get all PO'ed when something arrives unexpectedly. If we did we'd stroke out in a month.

Fair enough. But to interpret that there is no need to notify a receiving FFL based on that line of text, when it's quite clearly contradicted in much clearer language directly underneath, is foolish. The OP might be new at this whole thing and it can be overwhelming, but that's all the more reason to read carefully and double-check before beginning a transaction.

Bubbles
February 26, 2011, 11:51 PM
No argument there! Actually I'm wondering how a newbie to the gun world found Bud's in the first place, as most buyers just go to their LGS and buy their first gun there. It's only later that they discover they can buy online, usually for much less...

mike4330
February 26, 2011, 11:57 PM
i don't suppose you guys will believe me when I saw that line was NOT there when I ordered the gun.

anyway, what do i do know, am out the $800 I paid for this gun? I don't see how these guys can legally be allowed to do this.

kingpin008
February 27, 2011, 12:05 AM
No, you're not out the money. They're not holding your gun indefinitely. Play nice with the FFL, wait the few days then take home your gun and never do business with them again. It might not be what you want to do, but consider it a lesson learned.

Ohio Gun Guy
February 27, 2011, 12:05 AM
There is a legal term call "Unjust enrichment" even in contracts, where the contract says otherwise, typically if one party unjustly benifits, it still may be illegal.

You may try a letter from a lawer, or lean on the ATF if they think they are just going to keep it. Now this may cost you as much or more.....my guess is they will stop the games when the get a letter. The BBB and a lot of other folks would like to know about this too. there is a lot you can do, if your determined. (Just make sure your right, first).

kingpin008
February 27, 2011, 12:11 AM
Keep in mind that the FFL may just be incredibly busy - the OP himself said that he went today and couldn't even get in the door. If they're doing a lot of business, it's possible that they haven't had a chance to log it in yet. Also keep in mind that this gun essentially showed up on their doorstep unannounced - they may be taking their sweet time just because it caught them off guard and added to their already busy schedule.

The fact that their transfer rate is twice the going rate is something that the OP should have researched beforehand, and shouldn't be held against the shop. I can understand being a newbie, but the old saying "buyer beware" is there for a reason.

I would suggest that the OP visit the shop tomorrow, explain that he's new and possibly didn't fully understand the whole process, and see what can be done about getting his gun transferred to him as soon as possible. All this talk about lawyers and the ATF is just nuts, IMHO.

nalioth
February 27, 2011, 12:13 AM
If they're doing a lot of business, it's possible that they haven't had a chance to log it in yet.Larry was late to work, so he felt it was alright for him to violate the speed limit to get there.

A FFL holder has 24h to log in inbound firearms. As I said earlier, something smells "fishy" from what the OP reports being told.

wgsigs
February 27, 2011, 12:14 AM
I don't believe you are out $800. The receiving FFL will either eventually resolve whatever issues they are having with you and transfer the gun to you, or they will have to return the gun to the sender (because legally I think they can only hold the gun for a certain length of time) in which case you should either get a refund (minus shipping ?) or Bud's can re-send your gun to another FFL you select.

KingMedicine
February 27, 2011, 01:43 AM
Calm down guy, If these situations ended up with anyone losing any money or a gun, i highly doubt anyone would buy online from Buds. I would call buds and explain the situation to them, and sit back and let the FFL figure out there side. A few days is not going to mean anything once you get the pistol. Yes, its not great, but patience almost always pays off.

22-rimfire
February 27, 2011, 08:47 AM
Also keep in mind that this gun essentially showed up on their doorstep unannounced - they may be taking their sweet time just because it caught them off guard and added to their already busy schedule.

The thought occurred to me that the dealer might have just said.... oh great, free gun when it arrived without them ordering it or no advance knowledge of its being shipped. If I receive something at my door that I didn't order, I am under no obligation to return it or pay for it.

Honestly, I think the dealer probably called Buds after they opened the package to see what the deal was. The receiving dealer is probably taking their sweet time with the whole process. Call it... paying penance for not following proceedures. I think the dealer will either send it back or transfer it to you. This can't be the first time something like this happened. That is especially true from Bud's end.

NavyLCDR
February 27, 2011, 12:27 PM
I am just trying to figure out exactly WHAT does the receiving FFL have to do to get the gun "ready for transfer"? Why would that take a week? I'll bet if the OP walked into the store and wanted to buy a gun out of their display case it would not take them a week to get the gun "ready for transfer."

zoom6zoom
February 27, 2011, 02:34 PM
I choose this shop because I had planned to join as a member there.
A gun shop in/near Manassas that offers memberships? That's a new one on me.

jerkface11
February 27, 2011, 02:47 PM
Also keep in mind that this gun essentially showed up on their doorstep unannounced - they may be taking their sweet time just because it caught them off guard and added to their already busy schedule.

Yes how dare the op allow them to make money for opening a box and filling out paperwork! I wouldn't darken their doorstep again after you get that gun.

mike4330
February 27, 2011, 03:00 PM
Well folks, I visited the shop this am and showed profuse contrition for my sins and everyone was very nice about it and they were nice enough to actually transfer my firearm to me.

Thanks again to everyone!

kingpin008
February 27, 2011, 03:19 PM
Mike - glad it worked out well. Enjoy your new pistol! :)

wgsigs
February 27, 2011, 05:26 PM
A gun shop in/near Manassas that offers memberships? That's a new one on me.
I believe it is a gun range with a shop attached according to the OP.

Glad things finally worked out and you got your gun.

newfalguy101
February 27, 2011, 06:56 PM
Mike, glad you got it all squared away and hope you will use this experience as a lesson for future purchases

( because legally I think they can only hold the gun for a certain length of time)

What makes you think that??

Once I log a gun in, it stays on my books till I:

1) sell it
2) transfer it
3) return it to the legal owner
4) add it to my personal collection

And I leave em on my books as long as I can before transfering them to my personal collection to delay paying sales tax on em!!!

wgsigs
February 27, 2011, 10:10 PM
What makes you think that??
That's what my FFL told me once. But it may have been the time when the seller, a non-FFL, had not sent enough identification information for my FFL to log the gun in. Either that or he was just "threatening" the seller that he would have to send the gun back unless he got more identification. I guess that is why some FFLs won't accept shipments from non-FFLs - sometimes a little more hassle.

Is there a time limit that an FFL has to log the gun in before he has to send the gun back?

newfalguy101
February 28, 2011, 12:12 AM
Acquisitions within 24 hours

Dispositions within 3 days ( I think ) I normally do mine at either the time of sale/transfer or the end of the day if doing a show.

Had a gun come in one time for a transfer without a signed FFL, the license was there, but, it hadnt been signed.

I immediately sent an e-mail with plans to followup with a phonecall the following day.

Got home from work, and viola' the FFL was waiting for me in my inbox, with profuse apologies from the sender.

For what its worth, if I dont have enough info to log the gun, I dont have enough info to ship the gun back either!!

All I need is the make, model, caliber of the gun and the sellers name and address or FFL license number...some guys may require more, but, all I ask for is what I Legally NEED to record

22-rimfire
February 28, 2011, 12:29 AM
Congratulations Mike4330 on getting past this ordeal. When I have had guns shipped to FFL dealers, I talk to them first and get a signed copy of their FFL which I or they fax to the seller. Nobody is in the dark. The last time was for a BP rifle that the selling dealer kept saying they needed to ship to an FFL and I told them it was not required. But to make them happy, I had a dealer friend fax their FFL and I scanned my drivers license and emailed it to them. The gun arrived at my door via UPS a few days later.

Hope you enjoy shooting your new firearm. To avoid stuff like this, when possible, I buy locally at gunshops or gunshows primarily even if I pay a little more.

dogtown tom
February 28, 2011, 12:44 AM
wgsigs:....Is there a time limit that an FFL has to log the gun in before he has to send the gun back?
newfalguy101 Acquisitions within 24 hours
Actually CFR478.125 (e) says the dealer must log the acquisition by close of business the next day.....unless there are other commercial records that have all of the information that the bound book would require. If such a commercial record is available then the dealer may delay recording that firearm in his bound book for no more than seven days ( CFR478.125 (g) ).
See http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn=div5&view=text&node=27:3.0.1.2.3&idno=27#27:3.0.1.2.3.8.1.6

Example 1: Dealer goes to gunshow and acquires fireams on a Saturday morning. He can record all required information on the firearms he acquires and does not need to log them into his bound book until he returns to his premises. His bound book never leaves his licensed premises and he violates no laws. He has seven days to catch up on his paperwork.

Example 2: Dealer receives a firearm at 10am on a Friday. His business hours are Monday-Friday 8-5, he is not required to record that firearm until Monday afternoon prior to 5pm. (THIS according to my ATF IOI. He said "by close of business the next business day"....next business day is not mentioned in the CFR.)

makarovnik
February 28, 2011, 05:45 AM
I'd tell them they have 24hrs to get it ready or you'll be calling the ATF. Do you really need to threaten people to get stuff done? Hell yeah. It has always worked for me. I love it when people say " You don't have to get excited or make threats". I say "apparently I do". I'm a nice guy and pretty patient and forgiving but enough is enough already.

bayhawk2
February 28, 2011, 06:20 AM
I always said the best and the worst advertisement is by word of mouth.
Sounds like this FFL dealer is getting his 15 minutes of shame?
I ran into a similar surprise here.Been telling everyone I can to
stay away from this guy.A business that does not take care of
business usually goes out of business.

Jolly Rogers
February 28, 2011, 08:38 AM
Mike 4330...you don't have to name the FFL but could you give the location of the shop...like Chantilly, or Newington/Ft. Belvoir, Ashburn or Stafford? (That burned out store front in Woodbridge?) I do not know of any other ranges in No Va and I would like to find more as options to shoot. :D
Joe

danprkr
February 28, 2011, 08:50 AM
mcdonl +1

Catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

22-rimfire
February 28, 2011, 10:04 AM
To the threat makers... I try not to make threats EVER. I would never involve the ATF. I would rather loose the money. There is no law which says the dealer has to make the transfer in 1-day or 5-days. The dealer made the transfer.

I still have not seen any real issue here under the circumstances involved. Buyer did not follow accepted protocol. With the information presented, I don't think the local FFL dealer did anything improper or outside the bounds of normal business protocol.

You know nothing about the buyer other than what he said. The dealer may well have been unwilling to sell a gun period to him. The local dealer may have been a little slow under normal circustances. Again, you weren't there.

I support my local businesses and I usually buy locally even if I pay more. I appreciate the fact that they are available and I use their services when I need them. If you think you can do it better, take the risk and open your own gunshop and get a FFL.

I'm glad it worked out. I suspected it would.

mgmorden
February 28, 2011, 11:09 AM
I think all the talk of getting the ATF involved was WAY premature. It had been a few days, not weeks or anything.

Realistically, I can't fault the OP too much because as he said he was new to the process and interpreted the system to mean that he didn't need to contact the transferring agent ahead of time. I'll admit that the first gun I ever bought online I bought from Davidson's and I didn't contact the transferring agent either.

That said, at this point I know, and the OP should now know, that it's very, very wise to always let the transferring FFL know something is on the way. My emails are usually incredibly brief basically just something like "Hey I've had a few guns transferred by you in the past. I'm about to order a blah blah from Buds/Gunbroker/whatever and wanted to make sure you could transfer it".

awgrizzly
February 28, 2011, 12:44 PM
It sounds like the FFL holder uses the gun range for his business address and is not there everyday, or was busy elsewhere, thus "the gun wasn't ready". Not knowing the law, I assume he's the one that must receive the gun, log and transfer it. I also assume that the time in which he is required starts when he personally takes possession of the gun, not when it was delivered to the gun range. If he had been notified by the op he would have been expecting it and this whole thing might not have happened.

We're talking about a few days delay. I wouldn't expect better from my FFL, who is often busy out of town giving gun training. When the op finally met with the FFL everything was cleared up. This should have been the first thing he did. Until then all this bruha, talk of contacting ATF, and sending gun back was unnecessary. Even if the FFL was being a jerk, it's still no reason to over react (lots of jerks in the world).

nalioth
February 28, 2011, 12:50 PM
I also assume that the time in which he is required starts when he personally takes possession of the gun, not when it was delivered to the gun range.The time starts when the gun arrives at the licensed premises.

Onward Allusion
February 28, 2011, 01:10 PM
mike4330 (http://www.thehighroad.org/member.php?u=145638)
Well folks, I visited the shop this am and showed profuse contrition for my sins and everyone was very nice about it and they were nice enough to actually transfer my firearm to me.

Thanks again to everyone!Mike - Strictly as a FYI and perhaps a note to all new gun purchasers over the Internet, 4 days between the time your gun is received by your FFL to the time it is in your hands is not out of the ordinary.

I'm sure there will be those who will tell you that they receive their gun the very next day or even the same day as it was delivered. However, I can assure you that it is not the norm. Yes, the FFL holder has to log the gun within 24 hours, but I don't think there is required amount of time for them to place the gun in your hands. I have purchased many many firearms over the Internet and some of them took a good week before it ended up in my hands. This is not just from one FFL Holder but a good half-dozen of them.

The best thing to do is to call the FFL and speak to a live person.

dogtown tom
February 28, 2011, 02:31 PM
Onward Allusion Strictly as a FYI and perhaps a note to all new gun purchasers over the Internet, 4 days between the time your gun is received by your FFL to the time it is in your hands is not out of the ordinary.

I'm sure there will be those who will tell you that they receive their gun the very next day or even the same day as it was delivered. However, I can assure you that it is not the norm.

I make it a business policy to contact my customers within an hour of the firearm arriving to let them know my availability for a transfer. My "real" job is schoolteacher, so the firearms business has to occur after 5pm. I'm almost always available M-F 5-10pm and by appointment on weekends.

The reason I became an FFL was due to my former dealer failing to return emails, phone calls and waiting eleven days (after delivery) to return my calls about completing that transfer. He is no longer an FFL btw.

Last Tuesday afternoon, three guns arrive. Within twenty minutes I have emailed my three customers notifying them that their firearm has arrived and that they should contact me to schedule a transfer. I mention that I was not available that evening but would be able to schedule them for transfers beginning Wednesday.

Less than ten minutes later I get an email from one customer chewing me out for not being available that day to process his transfer. Seems the seller told him tracking info so the buyer knew it would arrive on Tuesday.....so he took the evening off work. He ranted about my poor customer service, lack of communication and how I should have told him I wasn't available Tuesday afternoon and evening and generally acted like a spoiled brat. Somehow, I was born without psychic abilities and did not know he planned on taking the day off, much less that his package was due to arrive on Tuesday.

In over 1300 firearm transactions this is the only customer to complain about getting his firearm promptly. He got notified of delivery within twenty minutes and was able to pick it up the next day for a $10 transfer fee..........yeah....he's a teacher and gets a discount. I may decline his business in the future.

MattTheHat
February 28, 2011, 02:39 PM
Sounds to me like the receiving FFL was simply trying to calibrate their customer. I'm sure they prefer to be notified before the transfer takes place, for whatever reason. Mike didn't do that and it sounds to me like they felt the need to make sure he understood this wasn't the way they liked to do things.

I'd find another FFL for future transfers, and I'd contact them before making the purchase, as I think most FFLs would prefer this route. I'd also contact Bud's and let them know that the FFL in question claims they know nothing about being in Bud's "preferred network".

Whatever the case, I'm glad it finally worked out for you, Mike. BTW, welcome to THR. Maybe I missed it, but you could also tell us what you got if you like. :) Pictures are always welcomed, by the way. (It's not bragging, it's "sharing".)


-Matt

kingpin008
February 28, 2011, 02:56 PM
I'd tell them they have 24hrs to get it ready or you'll be calling the ATF. Do you really need to threaten people to get stuff done? Hell yeah.

Yeah, let's involve a government agency that is no friend to gun owners and FFLs and is known for heavy-handed and capricious interpretations and enforcement of firearms laws because you didn't get your gun the very second you wanted it. That's a great idea. :scrutiny:

Also, even if you DID call the ATF, there are situations (such as has been posted above) where the FFL has longer than 24 hours to complete the logging in/transfer. So what then? Because you can't be bothered to actually work with the dealer, you sic the Gov't on them?

It always amazes me how many gun owners are willing to involve Big Brother at the drop of a hat, when a little patience and people skills will solve the problem just as easily. The ATF is NOT here to help you, or to go easy on the FFL. And even a slow FFL is preferrable to none at all.

The bottom line is this - the FFL dragged their feet, but the OP botched things a bit on his end too. All is well now, and it all got sorted out without the help of the F-Troop. Imagine that.

nalioth
February 28, 2011, 03:04 PM
I'd tell them they have 24hrs to get it ready or you'll be calling the ATF. Do you really need to threaten people to get stuff done? Hell yeah.
Yeah, let's involve a government agency that is no friend to gun owners and FFLs and is known for heavy-handed and capricious interpretations and enforcement of firearms laws because you didn't get your gun the very second you wanted it. That's a great idea.So just let the dealer keep it as long as they want, then?

DammitBoy
February 28, 2011, 03:33 PM
I deal with only one FFL in my town for online purchases. He faxes his FFL info within minutes of me telling him about the deal. He calls me within minutes of receiving my purchase. He only charges me $20 for the transfer. I usually spend the next 30 min. shooting the crap with him and looking at what he has in the shop.

I've tranferred more guns through his shop than I have bought from him directly. I think I've bought 4-5 guns from him directly, in the past 8 years. He always greets me warmly by name and shakes my hand enthusiastically. Whenever I see him at the gunshows, he goes out of his way to be friendly - even though I've never bought from him at a gunshow. He calls me up if he finds a gun he thinks I'm interested in - I have bought one gun from him out of a dozen cold calls. This is what good customer service is and why I recommend him to all my shooting buddies.

The other two shops in town will do online transfers if they do not already carry the gun in question. They charge $50 for transfers. They ignore me when I come into their shops, even though I have bought several guns from both of them in the past. They wouldn't know my name if it was written on my forehead in magic marker.

Consequently, I do as little business with them as possible.

kingpin008
February 28, 2011, 04:08 PM
So just let the dealer keep it as long as they want, then?

Of course not. But there's a long way between "something wierd is going on here" and summoning the Goon Squad.

rbartet
May 16, 2011, 10:37 AM
So what's a guy do when the ffl has had your gun for almost 3 weeks and doesn't return emails or phone calls?

Scimmia
May 16, 2011, 11:00 AM
So what's a guy do when the ffl has had your gun for almost 3 weeks and doesn't return emails or phone calls?

Is this an individual or a shop? As was brought up earlier in this thread, were they notified ahead of time? If it's a shop, stop in and see what they say. Sometimes things in life get in the way, for all you know, the guy could be in the hospital or something.

Reading this makes me even happier with my FFL. $10 transfers and will do it within an hour of recieving the package. My roommate had a gun arrive completely disassembled and the guy inspected everything to make sure it was all there and in good shape and reassembled it before we got there two hours after the package arrived.

rbartet
May 16, 2011, 12:11 PM
Individual. He was notified prior to the gun being placed on his door step. He even has a cool. Online system that lets you know when you firearm is ready to be picked up. So my gun was ready so I gave him a call. Said he was going fishing for the weekend. Not a big deal to wait a couple days. Called him a few days later. No return called. Emailed him nothing. He is not in the hospital, he is posting on Facebook. Posted on his wall saying I was trying to set up a time to pick up. He deletes the post. First time doing an online buy. Not happy. He was notified prior sending was and ffl and sent his copy with the gun.

Scimmia
May 16, 2011, 01:17 PM
Wow, so the guy's actively avoiding you. This could be a situation where you need to get the authorities involved.

Maybe he dropped it in the lake on that fishing trip. :what:

oneounceload
May 16, 2011, 01:35 PM
Maybe, to all of those complaining, you should buy your next gun from your LOCAL dealer so you can have that spoiled-brat, instantaneous self-gratification..............

rbartet
May 16, 2011, 03:05 PM
Bout many a guns local. But for this purchase the price difference is over 200 that includes shipping and transfer fee. 3 weeks is instant gratification lol

Grey_Mana
May 16, 2011, 05:17 PM
fyi: complaining to the ATF won't get you your gun faster, and may freeze the transfer indefinitely while the transaction is under review.

Do what you would do for any other product not delivered on time: see if complaining to local government can get him to serve his customers better, take him to small claims court, etc.

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