[kannonfyre]

I recently watched a video clip that a friend lent me where he tested out .22 magnum rounds fired from a Taurus carbine on a suit of home made plate mail armor hung up like a scarecrow. (Don't ask....he's a SCA fan.) Anyway, it got me thinking......

If one suddenly were presented with the threat of a charging knight w/o horse in full medieval plate armor from 25 yards away....what would be the best revolver/ammo combination to stop him before he got within sword range? Would 110 gr +p+ .38 special ammo from Cor-Bon fired out from a 4" barrel revolver do the job?

On more practical terms, which revolver/ammo combination works best for breaching makeshift metal plates worn as protection by rioters and other troublemakers?

[SMLE]

For a revolver, probably some flavor of .357 Magnum. But be ready to go for the head shot. What many folks don't realize is that full plate armor evolved specifically to counter guns on the battle field. In fact the term "bullet proof" was originally a NOUN rather than an adjective. It described the mark on the armor left by shooting it with a gun. I have handled some original plate armor and the breast plate was about 3/8ths" thick. Also such armor was hammer forged and pretty good steel for the period.

Of course a far better option would not be ANY handgun, but a good rifle shooting military FMJ or AP ammo.

The BEST option would be an M240G or an M2HB! :D

[RCL]

My Freedom Arms .454 loaded with CorBon Penetrator's. :D

[kannonfyre]

What about .30 carbine FMJs shot from a long barrelled revolver?

My friend seemed to be able to penetrate the breast plate of his training dummy with high velocity .22 magnum LRNs at 15 yards.

[ACP230]

Shoot the horse and hope it falls immediately. That would keep the knight from riding over you.
Once their mounts went down knights were slow and awkward. If they fell they couldn't get up without asistance.

[RandyB]

If he is w/o horse, then I'd jog a bit since he is going to get winded fast wearing that much metal. If not and rifle was not available, I'd opt for:

454/480/.44 mag with FMJ ammo (don't know that any is available) in the 300 grain range.

If it was a handgun that I currently own, I'd opt for my .357 (choices were that a .32, .45, 9mm) with 158 grain FMJ ammo. My speed loader would be with the 170 jsp Golddot makes, though I haven't shot it yet to see what it would do. My 9mm with 147 ball would be next and my beloved .45 would be with 230 grain ball.

[George Hill]

CZ-52. Not a revolver... but it will zip armour like a bullet through butter.

[Checkman]

I'd want some of the old armor piercing .357 rounds that they used to issue to cops back in the fifties and sixties. Those rounds were HOT and would actually punch through an engine block. I've talked to old timers who can recall shooting those rounds into old cars and the cars would actually rock from the impact.

Incidentally those old knight were actually pretty nimble on their feet. Even with all the plate mail. In modern times there have been folks who have worn the plate armor and then preceeded to do jumping jacks, jump up and down. etc. And the knights of old literally started training as knights when they were just small boys so you can imagine how dangerous they were. The armor was also desinged to be balanced on the wearer, wich assisted in his ability to move on his feet. So if one of those boys were down on the ground in front of you start pumping rounds into him before he gets up and then be prepared to run. Even with multiple bullets in him those knights were strong believers in the "combat mind set", and would have kept fighting until they passed out from bloood loss. The average knight was wounded many times in his life - so he was no stranger to pain.

Boy what a weird thing to think about.

:eek:

[SMLE]

Once their mounts went down knights were slow and awkward. If they fell they couldn't get up without asistance.
Sorry, but that's just Hollywood BS. I have seen a man in full plate armor do backflips and cartwheels. Now jousting armor was something else, THAT could get pretty heavy and was impractical for the battlefield. But the name of the game in a real fight was mobility.

[ACP230]

I missed the w/o horse in the first post. Typing too fast, and reading too slow I guess. Any weak points in the armor?

I'm pretty sure I READ that knights were slow without their horses. My old school headmaster, a guy with pretty good sources of info, also talked about daggers made for administering the Coup De Gras. During a history class he told us a knight off his horse and on his back didn't have much of a counter to the guy sneaking up on him with a thin blade to stick through his face plate or into his neck through the armor's joints. Mr. K wouldn't have lied to us, would he?

[Andrew Wyatt]

125grain FMJ-FP .357 mag.

I wonder how well saboted 55 grain .223's would work in a .32 H&R magnum.

[SMLE]

Knights were obviously faster WITH their horses, but not really slow without them. A man in full armor isn't going to be as fast as a man wearing only a heavy leather jerkin, but remember that when that plate is fitted and strapped on properly, it moves WITH you. it's not just dead weight hanging on your neck (or is that "kneck" :D ) The "Coup De Grace" would only be administered to a wounded and disabled man on the ground. Trying to stick a fully alert and able knight with a dagger was a Darwin award waiting to happen. I have been to SCA wars where people in full armor RAN into battle and fought ALL DAY. If you were to be facing a "real" knight as the result of some sort of time warp scenario, you'd better not underestimate his mobility or agility.

Oh and ANOTHER aspect that was over looked in the original post. What if he has a shield? :scrutiny:

[Nathanael_Greene]

"Coup De Gras"

The cut of goose?

[cratz2]

For going through metal of any sort, I'd rather have a FMJ bullet, preferably more pointed than most 38s/357s are... Maybe NATO 9mm ball ammo?

Actually, I'd probably want 20 rounds of 7.62x25 ready to go and in this particular scenario, I'd probably be aiming for the hip region as I'd probably have more faith in stopping his ability to walk than the ability to actually kill him in 3 or 4 seconds it might take him to run 25 yards.

[Jim March]

"Coup de Gras" = a takeover of the government by military potheads.

Sigh.

OK, if all you have is a 38+P capable gun, your best bet is 158 solids at +P velocity. Hardcast if possible and up around 1,000fps from a 4" tube.

Not optimal, and won't defeat the heaviest areas of armor, but you can punch through his thigh armor and try and slow him down, and maybe defeat the neck armor or something.

[JonnyB]

I should think that a heavy round - perhaps a 300 grain hard-cast bullet - from a .45 Colt would be a Knight-stopper. Of course, it works best if applied from close range (just beyond swords' reach) to the face-plate. 300 grains at ~750-800 fps in the face, even an armour-plated face, has got to ruin one's day...

If you're lucky, you might get the bullet to fragment, sending hot pieces into the eyes and other sensitive places.

Since I'm short of .45s, I'd use my Model 29, stoked with the stoutest hunting ammo available, and shoot for the head.

JB

[Sunray]

"...plate mail..." No such thing as plate mail. It's 'mail' or 'plate'. Mail as in chain maille.
Penetration of plate depends entirely on when and where it was made and shot at by what. Any medieval plate armour would be penetrated by any modern pistol round. The stuff that did not get penetrated in period was proof against low velocity BP rounds only.

[mrmeangenes]

:D I believe that situation was covered rather nicely in "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court" : The hero,a foreman at Colt's,happens to have a brace of Navy Colts on him when he gets transported into the Age of Chivalry,and,when a knight in armor charges him, he perforates his armor nicely with a .36 round ball...

[Johnny Guest]

- -I believe the term is coup d'grace. The finishing stroke. Kinda like coup d'etat, only different.

Confusion may be from the pronunciation: "coo-day grah." The other phrase is, "coo-day tah."

If I had it to do, I think I'd (TRY TO) wait til the plate armored guy raised the sword and then attempt an armpit shot with a handgun. Otherwise, a shot at the neck joint.

Let's see - - If we're gonna be LOGICAL about this scenario, you'd need to figure tactics with your USUAL carry handgun. I mean, if you could chose any weapon to carry into combat against a medieval knight, you'd be hard put to justify a handgun.

How about another truly logical scenario? Uh, defending the walls of Troy once the wooden horse had been taken through the gates? Of maybe, what gun to take down Godzilla and Mothra in a tag team match?

But wait - - :uhoh: Aren't the fantasy games parameters automatically considered OFF TOPIC?

Sorry, kannonfyre - - You did throw in an element of practicality, taking into account improvised plate armor. If the rioter was clever and could come up with some decently hard quarter-inch steel with any curve to it, it might be quite effective against handguns. In that case, I imagine a cool headed handgunner would do well to make a head or leg shot. With scanter coverage, there's much to be said for a solid strike to the pelvic girdle.

Best,
Johnny

[Kharn]

A .50S&W and a big bottle of aspirin would be my choice.

Kharn

[Joe Demko]

Shooting the horse isn't the easy solution it would seem. The horses, which were valuable, wore armor of their own. It was called "barding" I believe. Even if the horse were running about naked, I doubt you'd get much in the way of one shot stops on destriers. Like the guys who rode them, those horses were trained for war.

[uglygun]

The metal used for suits of armour probably isn't that thick, it's strength comes from the fact that it's been rounded and curved so that it gets a type of structual rigidity. Combined with heat treating that's probably what makes it strong against certain types of blunt force weapons.


But it's probably going to fail pretty easily to a high velocity round, something similar to shooting a hole in a car muffler.

For that alone, I'd pick a 357Magnum with something like a STOUT blue dot load with a 110-125grn bullet. Something up in the 1700 to nearly 2k fps velocity range.

As for chain mail armour, stuff that has the capability of defeating an arrow. Can't say, velocity alone might be enough to do it but then again you'd probably want some brute strength along with velocity. So how about a 44Mag with a stout charge of blue dot propelling a 180grn bullet.

[SMLE]

Chain mail is very flexible. It might trap a bullet, but it would do nothing for the blunt force trauma. Chain is good against cutting weapons, but not much else, hence the addition of plates that ultimatly evolved into full plate armor.
The breast plates of later full plate were quite thick. MUCH thicker than a car fender. I would not want to bet the rent that even some modern handguns would be able to penetrate it without AP rounds. I would go for the head shot or aim for the groin or legs.

BTW; Anybody here ever read "1632" or "1633" by Eric Flint?

[Frohickey]

Charging knight without horse?!!! Does he have a 9 foot lance too, or is it just a sword?

I think I'll just run away, he'll get tired soon enough. Then, when he keels over with a heart attack, I'll strip him of the medieval armor and sword and sell that via eBay. :D

[AlvinC]

going medieval....hmmm pulp fiction anyone? Anyway Id go for a tool that allows long distance accuracy on this one> Old time armor shouldnt be too hard to defeat.

[MrAcheson]

The average weight of a knight's armor is 50-60 pounds. If its a good set. Sometimes they can get up around 80 but thats not usually stuff that you would fight in, its turney armor or badly repro armor. That sounds like a lot, but its about where a typical combat loadout is for modern soldiers as well. Considering that armor is well distributed about the body perhaps people should reconsider their "knights are slow and get tired easy" belief systems.

However I'd go with stout .357 FMJ. Anything with lots of energy will tend to go penetrate a hardened target well and the ball should hold together going through the armor. Some might deflect, but keep shooting.

[Checkman]

SUNRAY

You're absolutely correct about my reference to "platemail". I really was thinking plate armor, but my fingers were not talking to my brain. Thanks for the pointer.

[Frohickey]

fine... if knights are not slow in their 50-60 lbs of well-position/balanced armor, then I'm faster in my Suburban. ;)

[Radagast]

I've got three rounds of .357 conical metal piercing winchester fmj. I've been waiting for the right opportunity to use them. :)

Ken

[Radagast]

I'll second SMLE's recomendation of 1632 and 1633 and the online slush pile. Anyone taking a slight interest in this thread will probably enjoy them.

Ken

[Lord Grey Boots]

The .357 puncturing engine blocks has been long proven to be false.

However, a good full power FMJ will probably have no problem punching a hole in plate armour.

I suspect that even a hit from a modern JHP will probably hurt A LOT, even if it doesn't penetrate. The dent will be a pain to deal with.

I would definitely want something that would penetrate hard. Doing the Touller test against a charging knight with a long sword would not be a good thing.