Gunshot at a Gun Show


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JoeMal
February 26, 2011, 02:11 PM
Went to a gun show today in Bloomington IL. At approximately 11AM, a gun shot rang out from the middle of the building. It was an extremely loud BOOM; there was no mistake that it was a gun shot. I believe the building is made from aluminum...which only made it sound even louder.

Initially, everyone stopped and stared in the direction in shock. After a few seconds, somebody yelled "Call 911" and that started the panic. Lots of people started charging for the doors, myself included. I was close to one of the doors, so my exit was pretty easy.

I have no idea what exactly happened, or how it happened. I overheard a guy that was standing in the general area say that it was a Ruger Mini that was shot. Apparently, one person was hit was a bullet and one person was hit with a fragment. I have no idea where the wounds occurred on the body. I did see someone getting wheeled out of the building on a stretcher and he looked conscious.

There is also speculation that an 'anti' planted a bullet into the gun, just waiting for someone to pull the trigger. I guess to make pro-gun folks look dumb like it was our fault. Of course this is all hearsay. Someone would have to be pretty ignorant to intentionally place a live round in a firearm, and then pull the trigger if they didn't mean to hurt someone. Which really makes me think it was an anti...it makes me sick to think about that.

What makes me even more sick, is the obvious neglect of firearm safety. Someone assumed the gun was unloaded. They also pulled the trigger without pointing the weapon in a safe direction. I could have been on the receiving end of that bullet...and that scares me. Admittedly, this was my first gun show, and I'm not sure I will ever go back to one. I'm much more safe browsing firearms online in the safety of my own home. I hope the truth comes out at some point regarding this incident, although I'm not sure it ever will. It could have been a pro-gun person just being stupid and loading the weapon for whatever reason. Could have been an anti trying to plot some hideous crime. Could have been already loaded when the doors opened this morning. Who knows. Very, very scary.

Aside from what happened, please everyone, be safe out there. Remember the basic rules of firearm safety. It can all end in a second.

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W L Johnson
February 26, 2011, 02:20 PM
There is also speculation that an 'anti' planted a bullet into the gun
I keep hearing/reading this, heck I've had a gun shop ship me a Saiga chambered and with a fully loaded mag inserted., so you can't always blame the anti's. Unfortunately people are careless and people get hurt because if it.

hawkass13
February 26, 2011, 02:20 PM
I read your story to my daughter, (6yrs old) She said they broke rule #1 of gun safety.

JoeMal
February 26, 2011, 02:26 PM
I keep hearing/reading this, heck I've had a gun shop ship me a Saiga chambered and with a fully loaded mag inserted., so you can't always blame the anti's. Unfortunately people are careless and people get hurt because if it. That's why I said speculation. It would be easy for a pro-gunner to think this. But then again, some antis are hardcore enough that it wouldn't surprise me...especially here in Illinois. To think that a pro-gunner loaded a weapon at a gun show, then pulled the trigger, really makes me rethink this sport. Why would someone load a gun at a gun show?! I shoot next to guys at the range all the time...where you're actually allowed to shoot. This could happen anywhere, anytime. The last thing I thought would happen would be to hear a gunshot...I'm obviously still shaken up by the incident.

I read your story to my daughter, (6yrs old) She said they broke rule #1 of gun safety. Good for her. There should be more like her in this world

X-Rap
February 26, 2011, 02:33 PM
Gunshows all present some special safety problems but for someone to be shoot requires almost every gunsafety rule to be broken.
Most guns are displayed in a way that points the muzzle at someone.
Some shows leave the inspection to the vendor and let them zip tie on their own. (all shows we do are this way)
I have always worried about shows and shops that allow easy accsess to the guns because of the ease one could slip a loaded round in a chamber and leave it to some unsuspecting fool to pull the trigger before clearing it.

W L Johnson
February 26, 2011, 02:34 PM
Why would someone load a gun at a gun show?
It could have been loaded the whole time the seller has had it, long before the gun show, he may have never checked. Some people are too lax about safety. But as far as an anti doing it, I wouldn't put it pass them, but I bet it's very rare compared to the number of times we screwup.

JenFann
February 26, 2011, 02:41 PM
I was there too with my 11 year old son. We were about 20 feet from where the gun went off and I went into full panic mode trying to cover my son and figure out what was happening. What a terrifying experience. I am anxious to find out if the person who was hit is still alive. I also "heard" that another person had a heart attack, so two individuals were taken out on the stretcher. My husband, son and I are signed up for a gun safety class through the State of IL here in Springfield. That was really scary.

JoeMal
February 26, 2011, 02:42 PM
Most guns are displayed in a way that points the muzzle at someone.
Some shows leave the inspection to the vendor and let them zip tie on their own. (all shows we do are this way)Good point. Most of the guns were laying on their side...which basically allowed for the weapon to always be pointing at someone since the tables were setup in long rows. NONE of the guns were tied up or had safety mechanisms on them that I saw. A simple fix to this issue would be to enforce a rule that required every firearm to have a trigger lock on it.

but I bet it's very rare compared to the times we screwup.I'll agree with you there. We've all heard stories, or even experienced them ourselves, of ammo being loaded in guns that should not be loaded.

Fmjblack
February 26, 2011, 02:43 PM
It is very unfortunate on several levels when something like this happens. First, it is unfortunate for the individual who was shot and their loved ones, hopefully they are not seriously injured. Second, it is unfortunate that this reflects poorly on all gun owners and will just be fuel for the liberal fire to ban gun shows. Lastly, it is unfortunate that whomever was selling AND whomever was handling the firearm didn't have the gun safety knowledge to check the chamber before attempting to dry fire (which is what I assume was the intent).
You should not let this discourage you from ever going to another gun show. Living in fear is what liberals are all about, and we certainly do not want to live like liberals. If you never go anywhere where you might accidentally be shot, you would also never go to a shooting range where the chance is much higher as lots of people are handling loaded guns.
I really am curious to see what details unfold about this incident. I know at gunshows around here all firearms that come in the door are checked and a zip tie is placed through the gun to prevent it from being fired... so somebody would have had to purposely load the gun after the fact and that really raises some big questions.

Owen Sparks
February 26, 2011, 02:51 PM
I have heard several stories over the years of semi-autos showing up at pawn shops and gun shows with a round in the chamber. Lots of non-shooters don't know to check for a roubd in the chamber when they "unload" a gun they just remove the magazine. Evidentaly one slipped by. The cop who works the door at our local shows has a mason jar that he displays on the table with about a dozen rounds that he has removed from various unloaded guns dyring the routine safety check.

JoeMal
February 26, 2011, 03:06 PM
I was there too with my 11 year old son. We were about 20 feet from where the gun went off and I went into full panic mode trying to cover my son and figure out what was happening. What a terrifying experience. I am anxious to find out if the person who was hit is still alive. I also "heard" that another person had a heart attack, so two individuals were taken out on the stretcher. My husband, son and I are signed up for a gun safety class through the State of IL here in Springfield. That was really scary.Welcome to The High Road

Did you happen to see anything that you didn't mention? See what kind of a weapon it was? I'm just curious to hear the story from 'real' people who were there and witnessed it rather than hearing some media-spun story tonight on the news. Glad to hear you are taking some classes and made it out safely with your family.

I know at gunshows around here all firearms that come in the door are checked and a zip tie is placed through the gun to prevent it from being firedLike I said, none of the vendor guns were locked or tied in any way. I did see a gentleman come in with 2 1911s; the lady at the door put a zip-tie around the trigger guard to show that it had been 'checked', but it was not around the trigger itself. So there was nothing in place that would have prevented the gun from firing.

W L Johnson
February 26, 2011, 03:16 PM
Found some news about it, take it for what it's worth.
http://www.pantagraph.com/news/article_ccf5806e-41df-11e0-a8c6-001cc4c03286.html

They say it was a mini 14 and two people shot, another injured (non gunshot)

Edit: I don't detect anything anti in the reporting, yet. They may update it later, but so far reporting only what they know without opinion.

kingpin008
February 26, 2011, 03:32 PM
There is also speculation that an 'anti' planted a bullet into the gun, just waiting for someone to pull the trigger.

Even if it was a purposeful setup by an anti, it didn't have to happen. Some dolt broke (arguably) the most important rule, and someone got hurt. Unacceptable.

Double Naught Spy
February 26, 2011, 03:36 PM
There is also speculation that an 'anti' planted a bullet into the gun, just waiting for someone to pull the trigger.

This is a commonly stated theory offered to explain away incompetence. Of all of the discharges at gun shows, just how many can be attributed to guns being boobytrapped by anti-gun folks? I don't know of any. http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=ie7&q=people+loading+guns+at+gun+shows%3F&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&rlz=1I7TSNA_en___US361#q=discharge+at+gun+show&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7TSNA_en___US361&prmd=ivnsfd&ei=DmBpTcX5N87OgAfqwtHLCg&start=10&sa=N&bav=on.1,or.&fp=192b3650e03511a3

Funny how the antis seem to get ahold of so many guns that turn out to be dealer personal guns and load them without the dealer ever knowing. Funny how dealer personal guns aren't zip tied and are loaded with the dealer's own SD ammo.

At the gun shows here in the DFW are where this has happened, it is very interesting that it does happen given that the guns are zip-tied. So not only do the antis get the guns, the remove the zip ties, load the gun, replace the zip ties, and nobody ever sees them do it. It is like they are imaginary gremlins. So not only are the antis that hard core, but they are also amazingly competent and nimble fingered enough to do such acts in a 100% stealthy manner. Look at all the gun shows where this has happened. Just how many extremely well trained anti-gun folks are out there and doing this every weekend? Apparently there are lots if you believe this to be happening.

I was present at a gun show in Frisco when a Glock armeror discharged a round into the carpeting. It was a gun he was going to service, one that he had brough with him. He pulled the trigger so as to release the slide.

She said they broke rule #1 of gun safety.
If somebody pulled the trigger, then they broke all 4 safety rules, not just one, but if you go to a gun show, you will see the safety rules continually being broken, in part because of how the gun shows are organized. In a full gun show, there is now to point a gun at any direction other than the ground without the muzzle scanning people.

elderberry
February 26, 2011, 04:25 PM
This is what the paper reported (in the link up above).

An attendee at the show was handling a Ruger Mini-14, semi-automatic rifle at about 11:15 a.m. As the patron was laying the rifle back on a vendor table, the gun accidentally discharged, said McLean County Sheriff Mike Emery.

Hanzo581
February 26, 2011, 04:33 PM
The gun shows I attend have the actions of each weapon zip tied, I am not usually for adding any additional rules but that should be one of them at every gun show. If you want to cycle the weapon or test the trigger pull etc. you ask the salesman to snip it, then right after a fresh tie goes on.

Balrog
February 26, 2011, 05:36 PM
Someone would have to be pretty ignorant to intentionally place a live round in a firearm, and then pull the trigger if they didn't mean to hurt someone.

I think it is absurd to blame an anti-person for this. It is much more likely that some idiot just didnt follow the rules of gun safety.

This is why I support gun show organizers who specifically forbid loaded weapons at shows and insist that they all be zip tied. While even this will not prevent stupid people from doing stupid things, it will at least reduce the number of mistakes people make, lower the gun show organizers liability, and hopefully reduce the amount of ammunition we give the media to bash gun shows with.

Remember, gun shows will be viewed in a negative light by people reading the news story, regardless of whether it was intentional or not.

The person that pulled the trigger should be charged with reckless endangerment, or some other such crime of negligence. I go to gun shows from time to time, but won't bring my kids to them just because of stuff like this. Here in Georgia, an 11 year old was shot to death at a gun show, because someone decided to pull the trigger on a gun that was not unloaded.


As the patron was laying the rifle back on a vendor table, the gun accidentally discharged, said McLean County Sheriff Mike Emery.

The Mini 14 must be worth a fortune, because it must be magic! It can discharge of its on volition and does not require a human to pull the trigger! Amazing!

Rembrandt
February 26, 2011, 05:52 PM
The gun shows I attend have the actions of each weapon zip tied, I am not usually for adding any additional rules but that should be one of them at every gun show. If you want to cycle the weapon or test the trigger pull etc. you ask the salesman to snip it, then right after a fresh tie goes on.

Dittos......finger pointing gets directed at the dealer/owner of the gun and the promoter for not having a zip tie through the action. No explanation can excuse this. Who ever failed to do this should be black balled from Gun Shows for life. Pray for the victims full recovery.

Jon Coppenbarger
February 26, 2011, 06:17 PM
You can not stop STUPID! somewhere at some point someone put a round into every accidental discharge at a gun show because the last time I checked they do not load themself. Its the STUPID people who end up hurting others and I have NO respect for anyone who wishes to break rules of either safety or rules posted at many shows.

I have seen the IDIOTS who think just because they can CCW end up pulling out a loaded pistol hand a person a loaded pistol several times at a show. I have also witnessed a few dealers pull out a loaded pistol and put it on a table.

Out of the 4 I have been at when they have happened 3 were the dealers own fault for doing it and one was a CCW weapon.
I zip tie every firearm I put out. Semi auto pistols the tie either goes threw the barrel or at least it will go threw the mag well and the the bolt is always at a position that it will not close completely.

A revolver will get a tie threw the cylinder in a few different way so the revolver WILL not cycle without cutting the tie and removing it.

Bolt rifles I always tie them in the open position so you may not close the bolt without the tie being cut. semi auto or any clip fed rifle if posible the tie goes threw the mag well so the rifle will not close completly. pumps,single shots, break opens or what ever gets tied with the chamber open.

Any other firearms like a auto shotgun or auto 22's get the bolt tied back into the open position.

When setting up I like to put on the ties when I put them out but with distractions you will most always find a few you missed. So when I think I am all done I will start on one end and work my way around checking EVERY firearm. When my partner comes in its like the first thing he does also.

KingMedicine
February 26, 2011, 06:18 PM
the "could be an Anti" talk is just nonsense. If the situation was dealt with correctly (gun zip tied, checked, no boom switch being pulled by booger picker), there would have been no one shot.

An excuse like that is unacceptable. We would get more out of this by accepting blame, and figuring out how this could be learned from. Its a perfect example of what not to do.

liberty -r- death
February 26, 2011, 06:28 PM
I was there. You saw me if you noitced the black and white Liberty or Death T shirt. With skull and cross bones.

Been going to gun shows since I was few years old I'm 37 now. First one I've been to that something like this has taken place. So many ways it could have been avoided even if the the conspiracy theory panned out.

1.The dealer says the individual helped himself to looking at the gun. (In Illinois you must provide your FOID to dealers before touching any firearm)
2.Individual never cleared the gun obviously.
3.Individual pointed the firearm at other.
4.Individual pulled trigger while pointing it at others.

As far as I can see both the dealer and the individual are at fault. The dealer should have had better control of his inventory. More fault lies with the individual than the dealer, but still it was on his table.

Stuff like this is what the anti-gun establishment pray upon accident or not.

I hope those hurt will recover.

SaxonPig
February 26, 2011, 06:55 PM
About 25 years ago I was at a show where an AD occurred. It was a high powered bolt action rifle and it was fired straight up into the ceiling. Unlike the descriptions above regarding yelling and panic, in this case everyone just froze and the hall fell silent. After about 5 seconds somebody called out, "Nobody hurt" and everyone went about their business.

The seller stated he did not have any ammo for the rifle. None in his car, or at home, or with him at the show. None at all. Someone loaded a round into that rifle at the show while handling the gun. May have been a shopper checking something and forgot to remove the round from the chamber. May have been an anti hoping for a death or injury to cause the shows to be shut down. You don't like to think a person would do such a thing but at this point, quite honestly there is nothing I would put past a dedicated liberal.

stonecutter2
February 26, 2011, 07:08 PM
I was also at the show, and showed up just as the police arrived (after the incident).

My brother-in-law and I didn't know what was going on while entering.

We spoke with a gentleman near the roped off area (about 1/4 or 1/6 of the show was cordoned off with crime scene tape for hours after the incident).

He said what has been reported - someone was handling a Ruger Mini 14, the gun discharged and struck a wooden pole that is approximately 8 inches thick - but the shot only went through about 4 inches (maybe) of the pole (it caught the corner of the pole), then went through a person and into another - I heard that the 2nd person's face was injured, probably from flying debris from the pole.

The news is reporting a 3rd person was injured but refusing treatment, didn't hear that.

The shot went through one of the massive wooden support poles in the Bloomington Sale Barn. Here is a picture of the pole after the area was opened again.

http://www.mrkruk.com/images/post.jpg

The wooden splotch is where the shot exited. The picture is kinda blurry because I felt gross taking it and just wanted to do it to post it here, so sorry about the partial finger in it.

The exit of the shot sprayed wooden particles all over the display case in the foreground of the picture.

The area was closed for hours, then news crews showed up and the owners of the show were talking with police, and cooperating, and the police gave the go ahead to reopen the area after, what looked like, every vendor was accounted for, and allowed beyond the roped off area to check every single weapon in the cordoned off area's chamber. Every single one. One Sheriff even double checked the vendor's table where the discharge happened.

It's really sad to have something like this happen.

I do not buy into the conspiracy theory about someone putting a round in the chamber to do harm/cause mischief. Someone else I spoke with in the area said that someone asked (if they did...I dunno) if they could put a round in the chamber to check cycling of the weapon, then they didn't remove it. Whether it was that person who went to set the weapon down and it discharged, or what, I don't know.

Much is speculation as to cause, but the end result is people are hurt because of carelessness. In so many years, nothing like this has happened at these gun shows, and I hope it doesn't mean the end of these shows in this area.

Metzroth
February 26, 2011, 07:29 PM
Ignorance/negligence and firearms don't mix, that is the message I take away from this article. Unless you intend to follow the rules of firearm safety, you should not be anywhere near a firearm, loaded or not.

Personally, I think the vendor should stripped of his FFL and maybe even his FOID. It's the vendor's responsibility to insure the safety of the firearm before the show, and after each customer handles the firearm for precisely this reason.

Hopefully the customer learns to follow firearm safety procedure anytime he/she handles a firearm from here on.

It's people like this who give firearm owners a bad name.

I've already had to hear from anti friends about this incident. Of course, they don't know how to respond to when you point out that careless people in vehicles kill at a much greater rate than careless people with firearms.

Metzroth
February 26, 2011, 07:30 PM
Oh, and thank you for a forum that contains good information regarding pretty much anything you would want to know about firearm sports, firearms, etc. I've been a lurker up until today when I decided to chime in.

Here is a link to an article regarding the incident.

http://www.pantagraph.com/news/article_ccf5806e-41df-11e0-a8c6-001cc4c03286.html

Rembrandt
February 26, 2011, 07:40 PM
Question for those in attendance.......what is this shows procedure for securing firearms, are zip ties required on every gun?

kingpin008
February 26, 2011, 07:47 PM
Personally, I think the vendor should stripped of his FFL and maybe even his FOID. It's the vendor's responsibility to insure the safety of the firearm before the show, and after each customer handles the firearm for precisely this reason.

Absolute nonsense. While it's a gun vendor's responsibility to know their merchandise and do his or her best to keep people safe around it, there's no way in heck they can be everywhere at once. It's also up to the customer not to be a total moron and pull the trigger on a gun in a packed building without knowing if it's loaded or not.

Should the FFL be more careful in the future? Absolutely. Was this entirely their fault? Not by a freakin' long shot.

david58
February 26, 2011, 07:54 PM
Ignorance/negligence and firearms don't mix, that is the message I take away from this article. Unless you intend to follow the rules of firearm safety, you should not be anywhere near a firearm, loaded or not.

Personally, I think the vendor should stripped of his FFL and maybe even his FOID. It's the vendor's responsibility to insure the safety of the firearm before the show, and after each customer handles the firearm for precisely this reason.

Hopefully the customer learns to follow firearm safety procedure anytime he/she handles a firearm from here on.

It's people like this who give firearm owners a bad name.

I've already had to hear from anti friends about this incident. Of course, they don't know how to respond to when you point out that careless people in vehicles kill at a much greater rate than careless people with firearms.

If the gun show didn't required that all guns be cleared and rendered inoperable, typically by tie wraps, they get the first piece of credit for this.:fire:

The vendor should get a bit of credit for not making the guns inoperable even if not required to. If the guns are not tied down to the table (many vendors here use a long, electronic bike cable lock type thing that keeps any gun from leaving the table without directly removing it and supervising it).:fire:

Then all of us get some blame. We tolerate muzzle sweeps, folks pulling triggers, and overall unsafe handling of guns at gun shows. If enough of us complain, I'm confident that the show promoters would fix some of the idiocy in the gun handling, since it is the paying "us" that make the shows work. I left a Gander Mountain two weeks ago after telling them that I will simply never buy a gun from someone that is going to point the doggone thing at me. If we do the same with gun show proprietors, it WILL change. But we have to all act, instead of just talk about it or grumble to ourselves. Shouldn't be too much trouble or pain - many threads re gun shows seem to discuss how high the prices are and how bad the deals.

Sorry about the soapbox...

Millwright
February 26, 2011, 08:03 PM
IMNSHO this incident has to be the result of:

1.Deliberate action.......
2. A level of carelessness approaching criminal....


Any gun show I've ever attended in the past decade in PA has the actions blocked open by "pull-tie". Some displayers even use a secured flagged chamber block in addition ! OTOH, I see participants displaying a contempt for Jeff Cooper's "Three Rules" that's absolutely astounding all a the time !!

Perhaps we're being "too safe"......Everyone is relying upon the "other guy" to guarantee his careless actions won't result in an AD...... >MW

elderberry
February 26, 2011, 08:10 PM
I'm not going to speculate on what did or didn't happen as I have yet to hear any first hand evidence from any witness. But I will say this much -- someone intentionally loaded that weapon. They don't load themselves and they do not get loaded accidently. Why that person loaded the weapon is pure speculation. How a loaded weapon ended up on that table is also pure speculation. By the way, I did hear 2nd hand comments that the rifle was a "bring in" and not part of that vendor's display. If that is true then it had to pass through a visual chamber inspection to get in the door and Bloomington normally does a very thorough check. At this point I am assuming it was a careless accident on the part of at least two and possibly three different people. Two -- the vendor and the shooter -- three would be the inspector at the door if it was a bring in.

On the other hand, nothing would surprise me anymore. I never thought I'd live to see the day people put needles and razor blades in Halloween candy or poison in medicine bottles either. It's a crazy world and coincidences usually aren't coincidental.... I do believe it is the vendor's responsibility to clear each and every weapon after it is handled each and every time. From a practical standpoint I have doubts if that is possible. It can get pretty hectic, especially the first morning of the first day.

I also am a big fan of ty wraps.

Balrog
February 26, 2011, 08:27 PM
Should the FFL be more careful in the future? Absolutely. Was this entirely their fault? Not by a freakin' long shot.

Not sure about that. It looks to me like the vendor let someone handle a weapon without seeing his FOID card. Secondly, the gun was apparently placed on display loaded by the vendor. I am pretty sure a good lawyer could show that the vendor was at least complicit and partially responsible for the bad outcome here.

kingpin008
February 26, 2011, 08:44 PM
I never said that the FFL wasn't at least partially responsible.

Whether they put the rifle on the table loaded or not, whether they received a FOID card before it was handled or not, some idiot put their finger in the trigger guard and squeezed the trigger. That's not the FFL's fault. Were it not for the mysterious stranger's actions, that rifle would never have gone off on it's own, even if it was sitting there loaded.

elderberry
February 26, 2011, 08:44 PM
How do you know the vendor did not inspect the weapon..?? You are assuming it was already loaded when originally placed on the table. We do not know that for a fact..

How can a vendor prevent someone from just grabbing a rifle without showing their FOID card, which is what was reported in this case....

leadcounsel
February 26, 2011, 08:55 PM
I enjoy gun shows and continue to go if they are convenient.

However, I realize that I'm constantly being flagged by other people carrying guns. Frankly, not a bad place to don your concealed ballistic vest if you have one.

In my experience, all the guns being brought in have their chambers checked and the actions zip tied open. But folks can remove that and frankly load ammo if they were so inclined. Once inside it's adult rules.

They best defense is having people obey all gun rules as much as humanly possible in a crowded room. Check the magwells and actions. Keep the safety on and finger off the trigger. If you are going to test the trigger, check the action and magwell again and point it toward the ceiling or safe direction (cement wall, no people, etc.).

Scary moment, hopefully the folks are fine.

medalguy
February 26, 2011, 09:08 PM
I attend quite a few shows and MOST of them (not all) require that all guns have the chambers open and bolts & triggers tied so they can't be functioned. This keeps any chance of ammo out of a weapon. I think this is an excellent way of preventing this type accident.

2WheelsGood
February 26, 2011, 09:18 PM
Secondly, the gun was apparently placed on display loaded by the vendor.ALL guns are loaded. Simple as that. There's a reason why responsible gun owners live by that rule. I can be absolutely sure that a gun isn't loaded by checking the chamber both visually and by feel, and I STILL won't point it at someone. Human error is always a possibility, and the only way to make sure this doesn't happen is to follow the basic rules.

Sure the vendor may have done something stupid, but I can promise you that had I picked up that gun, nobody would have gotten shot. The ONLY way to prevent these things from happening at gun shows is to make every single person who walks through the front door recite the basic rules before they get their hand stamped.

elderberry
February 26, 2011, 09:18 PM
Most Illinois gun shows do not lock the guns open or use ty wraps. But what you guys need to understand is we do not have the right to carry a weapon in Illinois. The only weapons at the gun show are the ones the vendor brings in or the cased weapons coming in the door with the public -- guns that someone wants to horse trade. These guns must be inspected at the door by the people running the gun show and they must be empty or they can't pass the inspection. Empty chamber. Empty magazine....

So my point is there are no loaded guns at an Illinois gun show except one worn on the hip of a LEO. Someone had to load that gun or the vendor had to screw up big time. I'm not willing to lay blame on anyone based on speculation...

Rembrandt
February 26, 2011, 09:28 PM
Most Illinois gun shows do not lock the guns open or use ty wraps.

If that was the case in this situation.....we have our answer.

7thCavScout
February 26, 2011, 09:29 PM
Found a link for the news story....http://www.pantagraph.com/news/article_ccf5806e-41df-11e0-a8c6-001cc4c03286.html
"The round went through a post, through a person and then into another person," said Emery, describing the post as wooden, and 6 to 8 inches thick.

One man had a chest wound, while details of the second person's injuries were not immediately available.

elderberry
February 26, 2011, 09:39 PM
Does anyone actually read these threads..?? that's the third time that same link has been posted....


Rembrandt -- I agree to a point. I think it's still important to establish how the round got into the weapon.

I will say this. The same organization puts on gun shows in the southern portion of the state. It is my understanding at a recent show in Effingham there were weapons that somehow got loaded after the tables were set up but before the doors were opened... Note that while the show had not yet officially opened, there were several members of the public in the arena.

stonecutter2
February 26, 2011, 10:46 PM
Question for those in attendance.......what is this shows procedure for securing firearms, are zip ties required on every gun?
Zip ties are required on every gun brought in the door by attendees.

I did not see any zip ties on guns for sale by vendors.

That may change tomorrow (going back again with another friend).

mgregg85
February 26, 2011, 10:51 PM
I'd love to blame the brady bunch for this but my money is on some idiot having forgot to unload his mini.

Before I dry fire any gun I always check the chamber, even if I just watched someone check it seconds before they handed it to me. Also I always point the gun in a safe direction if i'm going to dry fire it, at a gun show the only safe direction would seem to be the floor or the ceiling.

elderberry
February 26, 2011, 10:52 PM
Zip ties are required on every gun brought in the door by attendees.

I did not see any zip ties on guns for sale by vendors.

That may change tomorrow (going back again with another friend).
Thanks, Cutter. I wasn't clear on that when I said no ty wraps -- I meant on vendor weapons. So, if this rifle actually was a "bring in" then at some point after it came in the ty wrap was removed and the weapon was loaded.

I hope the paper tomorrow defines where the rifle came from. The tv news did not mention it one way or another...

Balrog
February 26, 2011, 10:54 PM
ALL guns are loaded.

yes but obviously some are more loaded than others.

elderberry
February 26, 2011, 11:06 PM
The 10pm news just reported that one victim is out of surgery and in critical but stable condition. a second victim was treated at the hospital and released. a third victim did not require hospital threatment.

Metzroth
February 27, 2011, 02:05 AM
Quote:
Personally, I think the vendor should stripped of his FFL and maybe even his FOID. It's the vendor's responsibility to insure the safety of the firearm before the show, and after each customer handles the firearm for precisely this reason.

Absolute nonsense. While it's a gun vendor's responsibility to know their merchandise and do his or her best to keep people safe around it, there's no way in heck they can be everywhere at once. It's also up to the customer not to be a total moron and pull the trigger on a gun in a packed building without knowing if it's loaded or not.

Should the FFL be more careful in the future? Absolutely. Was this entirely their fault? Not by a freakin' long shot.

If this is not the case, whose responsibility is it? If you have one person working a counter, one firearm should be being handled at a time (IMO). I agree that the FFL was not completely at fault, however as the vendor, HE is responsible for the safety of the firearms he has on display.

As for the customer, I'm quoting a user on another forum : "What happened to a gun is always loaded?"

Before that firearm is handed to the customer a FOID card should be presented by the customer(in the state of IL).

After this the vendor should check/clear the firearm before it is handled.

Maybe I'm just more cautious than some, that can't be a bad thing.

I'm not the only one who feels this way.

See: http://www.hipointfirearmsforums.com/Forum/index.php?topic=39043.0

Google search turned that thread up on another forum and I was happy to see I'm not the only who feels this way.

ljnowell
February 27, 2011, 02:49 AM
I was there too with my 11 year old son. We were about 20 feet from where the gun went off and I went into full panic mode trying to cover my son and figure out what was happening. What a terrifying experience.

I can only imagine, that must have been a horrific few moments. I have a 10 year old who is very safe with firearms. Many of my friends have said they would rather shoot with him than many of the people we inquire at the club. There have been several times that I have packed up and left because my son was with me and there were questionable individuals there.

To actually have a shot go in a setting like that with your child though, scary.

Balrog
February 27, 2011, 08:28 AM
I think people have proven time and time again that they can't follow the rules of firearms safety. Therefore, and system that relies on the rules of firearms safety to prevent injury is ultimately going to fail, such as in this case. There are multiple cases like this, and every time a negligent discharge occurs it is because someone once again violated the rules.

At gun shows in particular, people seem to forget the rules. They are excited by all the guns they are seeing, and they just overwhelmed by their enthusiasm and forget about the rules.

I whole heartedly support gun show organizers who forbid loaded gun in their shows, including personal concealed weapons. All guns need to be zip tied to keep the action from being able to close. If someone needs to inspect it, the zip tied should be removed by the vendor and then immediately reapplied. It should ultimately be the vendors responsibility to make sure all displayed guns are unloaded, and that their table has enough adequate supervision to prevent dumb people from doing dumb things.

Skyshot
February 27, 2011, 08:44 AM
I went to a gunshow in Kingsport Tn. last month and there was a vendor there that had all of his firearms cabled through open actions and if one wanted to further examine the firearm he would unlock it and my friend and I noticed he stayed right there with that individual until he was done and then relocked the firearm. We both commented that this guy was being smart, because the next tabel over you had guys handling all kinds of rifles and the vendor was overwelmed just trying to keep up with all the lookers. A few weeks later my wife and I attended a show in Gray Tn. and when we arrived the police were in the parking lot going through a car, and come to find out someone had discharged a firearm in the parking lot. You know I see alot of people at these shows that just pick up weapons and handle them and you can tell that they know nothing about the firearm they are holding, that in itself is not a good thing. I think most vendors are very safety conscious, but when you get that many people together you are going to have a few wingnuts in the crowd. God forbid, this will happen again!

ultradoc
February 27, 2011, 08:52 AM
I guess it's a rule in Ohio but all the guns that go into a bldg. for a gun show are zip tied. Every gun. Dealers/buyers/sellers

kingpin008
February 27, 2011, 09:09 AM
Metzroth - Possession of a FOID card does not prevent some idiot from pulling a trigger when they shouldn't.

And as far as the dealer being responsible for providing a safe firearm for the customers to handle and inspect, in this case it WAS safe, even if there was a round in the chamber. The gun didn't go off on it's own. It was made to go off by some idiot who didn't pay attention to the four rules, and who ended up hurting three people badly as a result.

There is NO reason for that mysterious idiot to have pulled that trigger without knowing the status of that gun. If he wanted to test the trigger pull, then he should have first ASKED the vendor whether or not it was OK to do so, and then CHECKED THE CHAMBER himself to verify it was unloaded. That's just common sense, not to mention good manners.

Balrog
February 27, 2011, 09:37 AM
I agree with what you are saying Kingpin, and we as gun enthusiasts all know that, but I think a lawyer could have a field day with a gun left loaded and unattended by a vendor at a gun show. At a minimun, the vendor would be partially culpable. The fact that he is a vendor implies that he has a higher level of knowledge about guns than Joe Shmoe, idiot off the street, who just happened to pull the trigger on a gun that should have been unloaded. Non firearms enthusiasts don't know about the rules of firearms safety, and certainly would not consider them to have any legal importance.

danez71
February 27, 2011, 09:42 AM
And as far as the dealer being responsible for providing a safe firearm for the customers to handle and inspect, in this case it WAS safe, even if there was a round in the chamber. The gun didn't go off on it's own. It was made to go off by some idiot who didn't pay attention to the four rules, and who ended up hurting three people badly as a result.

Let not turn this into 'a gun, in & of itself, is not dangerous' debate again.

This is clearly all about gun handling and not about a gun just sitting there.


The first "idiot", as you say, was the vendor for not following the first rule of 'Treat every gun as if its loaded'.

If the vendor had followed that rule, he would have checked & unloaded it as that is the shows rule.

The 2nd 'idiot' as you say, missed a couple of the rules.

How the round got in the chamber and when is also a whole 'nuther' issue.

Balrog
February 27, 2011, 09:47 AM
The fact is, the rules were not followed, the gun was fired negligently, and it will now most likely up to a court to decide who gets what proportion of the blame. The rules of gun safety really only apply til the gun goes bang. After that, its up to a jury.

W L Johnson
February 27, 2011, 09:51 AM
Why don't they just pass a law requiring people to check the chamber before pulling the trigger? New laws always fix the problem. :rolleyes:

I'm not trying to make fun of a serious incident, I'm just trying to make the point that if we don't police ourselves then that just give the govt the excuse to step in. As if they needed an excuse.

Carl N. Brown
February 27, 2011, 10:02 AM
I worry more about getting hit with a car in the parking lot walking into the show, than I worry about getting shot with a gun inside the show. Still it is no excuse to be slack about gun safety. Treat every gun as a loaded, lethal weapon, especially if you just know for sure it's not loaded.

Our local gun shows have a person (often a cop) at the door to inspect and cable-tie every gun brought in to sell or trade. The venders' guns are no exception. It is not surprising to have a person uninterested in guns to bring in a gun to sell which they had inherited, unaware that the gun was loaded when their Uncle Joe passed on, because they knew nothing about guns.

stonecutter2
February 27, 2011, 12:06 PM
Thanks, Cutter. I wasn't clear on that when I said no ty wraps -- I meant on vendor weapons. So, if this rifle actually was a "bring in" then at some point after it came in the ty wrap was removed and the weapon was loaded.

I hope the paper tomorrow defines where the rifle came from. The tv news did not mention it one way or another...
It should be noted that while I was 20ft from where this incident occurred, near the crime scene tape, I saw a man with an M1A over his shoulder. Zip tie on the triggerguard...only around the triggerguard. Nothing preventing someone from chambering a round and firing the weapon, except the zip tie might have to be slid forward of the trigger a little...maybe.

The zip ties weren't really disabling the guns, they were just showing they checked them at the door.

Balrog
February 27, 2011, 12:23 PM
The zip ties weren't really disabling the guns, they were just showing they checked them at the door.

I bet there is a lawyer somewhere that would like to know that.

IROCZ
February 27, 2011, 12:54 PM
Elderberry, Do you have any evidence of this? Was this incident investigated? I'm refferring to firearms being loaded before the show in Effingham. Thanks.

stonecutter2
February 27, 2011, 12:55 PM
I bet there is a lawyer somewhere that would like to know that.
I'm going to the show again today, and I'll see if protocol is any different.

sonick808
February 27, 2011, 01:03 PM
yikes. I was born and raised in Bloomington/Normal. I've been to that show at the sale barn many a time. Sure hope the injured is "OK". the local paper is the pantagraph (dot com), they'll probably have info

sonick808
February 27, 2011, 01:04 PM
http://www.pantagraph.com/news/local/article_ccf5806e-41df-11e0-a8c6-001cc4c03286.html

EDIT: Sorry, I see we have some folks from BMI on here. Didn't realize there were 3 pages of informative posts already. sorry about that. Just consider this a re-post

Hanzo581
February 27, 2011, 01:21 PM
It's really simple, use zip ties to make all firearms in the show (vendors/buyers/sellers) are inoperable. I had no idea so many shows apparently don't do this. And now knowing it, I am surprised more accidents don't happen.

I mean there is no way a vendor can keep track of what patrons do when they have six people behind the table and a hundred perusing their goods. Most major vendors get by with this by using ties as well as a cabling system to ensure I can't walk off with a gun while the salesman are distracted.

I'd rather some stricter safety rules be put in place than give antis any more "ammunition".

elderberry
February 27, 2011, 02:02 PM
Elderberry, Do you have any evidence of this? Was this incident investigated? I'm refferring to firearms being loaded before the show in Effingham. Thanks.

No. Unfortunately my information is 2nd hand and I really should not have posted it since I have no first hand knowledge of the incident.

And to 7thCavScout -- I shouldn't have jumped on you for posting that link -- you were just being helpful. My apologies....

seldomseensmith
February 27, 2011, 02:02 PM
Darwin award. End of story.

2WheelsGood
February 27, 2011, 02:13 PM
Darwin award. End of story.
Not at all. Darwin Awards are for people who do stupid things and get THEMSELVES killed. The guy shot was completely innocent.

liberty -r- death
February 27, 2011, 04:13 PM
Like I posted earlier. I was there. So many ways this could have not happened if gun safety had been observed.

I can say that I have been to a number of ECA gun shows in Illinois over the last several years, and every gun I have every taken through the door has simply had a zip tie place around the trigger guard. Nothing like the shows I've been to in OK or TX. In OK or TX they tend to zip tie chamber or barrel to show the gun has been checked including the breach in the barrel.

My guess is that the dealer did check the gun. He may have dropped the clip and opened the action to clear it, but failed to check the breach of the barrel. Usually in a semi auto that is the case. Obviously no one can know for sure, but that would be a good guess if I were to venture a guess.

stonecutter2
February 27, 2011, 08:20 PM
Went to the show again today, my friend brought in a pistol to look for a holster that fits it.

A zip tie was placed on his pistol through the chamber, securing the firearm.

Every pistol in the show had zip ties through their chambers, or in a way to make them inoperable.

I saw vendors snipping off the zip ties occasionally to demonstrate the pistol or rifle, then reattach them.

I think it's a very difficult way to learn to enforce safety, but it's for the better.

Again, big difference today vs. yesterday at the show - every gun I saw today including my friend's gun was securely zip tied through the action.

2WheelsGood
February 27, 2011, 08:43 PM
I think it's a very difficult way to learn to enforce safety, but it's for the better.I'm not so sure it's for the better. It's yet another crutch meant to protect people from themselves. All it does is continue to breed this mentality that it's OK to walk through life in a fog. What's going to happen when these guns leave the show? Is there always going to be someone around to put a zip-tie through the action?

You may be thinking that this is good for the rest of the participants. Maybe. But what happens when this same numbskull goes to the range for the first time and kills the guy in the lane next to him? Or what happens when he "cleans" it for the first time while his kid is in the next room watching TV?

CoreyI35
February 27, 2011, 10:37 PM
So what are you saying, that some people are too stupid to own guns? (This I agree with, btw.) Maybe I'm just reading something into your post that isn't there, but it seems like you're saying we need some way of keeping the idiots away from guns. How does one test for such idiocy? How stupid can you be and still be able to legally own a firearm?

W.E.G.
February 27, 2011, 10:50 PM
Next time somebody says "You can't hit anything with Mini-14," I'm not gonna believe them.

XxWINxX94
February 27, 2011, 10:55 PM
I just aired the story on the Chicago news.

In my opinion, why did the guy not check, and double check the chamber of the gun? I think quite a few folks are responsible here but the first thing I do is check and make sure there is nothing in the chamber, and very rarely even dry fire it, at that.

larryf1952
February 28, 2011, 12:44 AM
So what are you saying, that some people are too stupid to own guns? (This I agree with, btw.) Maybe I'm just reading something into your post that isn't there, but it seems like you're saying we need some way of keeping the idiots away from guns. How does one test for such idiocy? How stupid can you be and still be able to legally own a firearm?And therein, lies the rub.

PastTense
February 28, 2011, 02:17 AM
Here is some followup:
http://www.pantagraph.com/news/local/article_8aa90350-42ea-11e0-a641-001cc4c002e0.html

Brief Youtube videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbBzKpL4n44
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf2RK_vipaw
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnefE1MFbJI

makarovnik
February 28, 2011, 04:52 AM
I see a lot of stupid people selling guns at the shows. One time I was at a show I saw this gun and asked "How many rounds does it hold?" The FFL dealer opened up a box of ammo, loads the magazine and inserts it into the pistol and says "13". Silly boy.

Carl N. Brown
February 28, 2011, 05:09 AM
Why don't they just pass a law requiring people to check the chamber before pulling the trigger?

They need to cover "How laws are written" in a mandatory high school civics class, regardless of the opinion of Otto von Bismarck (that watching laws being made is like watching sausages being made, it spoils one's appetite.)

Any such law would run to 2,800 pages that no one would be allowed to read until after it was passed, it would felonize with criminal penalties far more than failure to check the chamber before pulling the trigger, and the statutory definition of "finger thing that hangs down" would be so bollixed up, the law would not even cover what it set out to cover in the first place.

Shadow 7D
February 28, 2011, 05:34 AM
Because you can't legislate stupidity
Or make illegal
As, in many cases it already is
(reckless endangerment, Assault with a deadly weapon)

Shadow 7D
February 28, 2011, 05:35 AM
Oh you mean a law that would make it a felony to place a finger inside the trigger guard of a weapon, or on the trigger if the weapon lack a guard, but the next line down protect your right to discharge a firearm (just not with a finger...)

bayhawk2
February 28, 2011, 05:41 AM
"You can't fix stupid".Not with any laws.

Mp7
February 28, 2011, 05:42 AM
i suspect the number of not-trustworthy rather simple people who own guns is multiple times higher than that of antis crazy enough to plant bullets in gunshow guns ......

Checking every firearm on entry would be the only solution to avoid this.

FourteenMiles
February 28, 2011, 05:52 AM
Sort of off topic but I just want to say how dangerous a panic in a crowd can be. Anytime you are in a crowd you are in danger of being trampled or crushed. Read about some of notable incidents in the past decade here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_crush#21st_century

You can also see an example of a Human Crush here (warning: graphic footage and vulgar language):

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=25b_1277865838

If you have a real strong stomach you can watch what happens when you combine a panicked crowd with a fire. This is the infamous Station Nightclub fire in RI (warning: extremely disturbing video):

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fc3_1280004789

(If you are wondering how the cameraman got such detailed footage and how he was so aware of the danger it is because he was actually a reporter there doing a report on nightclub safety after a much less extreme incident at another club, something I find to be an extraordinary coincidence)

2WheelsGood
February 28, 2011, 09:29 AM
So what are you saying, that some people are too stupid to own guns?No, what I'm saying is that in the attempt to make all things inherently safe, we're creating a society of people who live in a fog and take their safety for granted.

Look at cars. People feel so darn safe in their cars now-a-days that they eat with one hand while talking on the phone with the other. And let's not forget how all-wheel drive, traction control, and ABS just makes people think they can do 80 mph in snow.

My point is that zip-tying the actions may have the desired effect, but it just thickens the fog that the lemmings are already living in.

W L Johnson
February 28, 2011, 10:13 AM
"You can't fix stupid".Not with any laws.
Exactly my point, I was been sarcastic.

henschman
February 28, 2011, 10:28 AM
I was at a show in Tulsa, OK back in 2002-2003, something like that, where a shot rang out. There was no panic or rush for the doors, though... people kind of cautiously looked in the direction of the shot, realized nobody was going on a rampage or anything, and went on about their business. Like with the situation in the OP, it took people a few seconds to realize that it was actually a gunshot. Everybody paused and listened when it went off, looked to the people next to them, and said "was that a gunshot?" "yeah, I think it was."

It turns out some idiot stuck a loaded pistol in his holster with his finger on the trigger. The bullet hit the floor and went straight sideways into the foot of a guy standing next to him, IIRC.

sportclay
February 28, 2011, 10:52 AM
Last year at the Albany, NY January gun show. At 10 am a loud bang silenced the crowded noisy show. You could hear a pin drop. State police security had weapons drawn and found a shaken dealer with a blown pneumatic tire on a hand truck. The tire had been inflated at a gas station cold, in PA prior to the dealer driving to Albany. The hand truck brought inside warmed up and the tire exploded. Thankfully it was not an incident such as Bloomington. Still makes you check your shorts.
Several years back in a show in Western NY, a round was discovered in a magazine of a 9mm semi auto pistol. When it was discovered shortly after another was discovered at another dealer. An announcement was made over the PA for all dealers to check all their firearms on display. 3 more 9mm SA's were found loaded with a single round. The individual was caught. I do not know the outcome of any prosecution but since then zip ties are used at shows in NY.

VT Deer Hunter
February 28, 2011, 10:53 AM
Man i would be scared as hell if i was there!

Panzercat
February 28, 2011, 12:08 PM
Just saying...

elderberry
February 28, 2011, 12:15 PM
No, what I'm saying is that in the attempt to make all things inherently safe, we're creating a society of people who live in a fog and take their safety for granted.

Look at cars. People feel so darn safe in their cars now-a-days that they eat with one hand while talking on the phone with the other. And let's not forget how all-wheel drive, traction control, and ABS just makes people think they can do 80 mph in snow.

My point is that zip-tying the actions may have the desired effect, but it just thickens the fog that the lemmings are already living in.

I agree with your point. I've thought about this a lot the past couple of days. I suspect that the very restrictive gun laws in Illinois may well contribute to this false sense of security thing, especially with new gun owners. Newer, less experienced gun owners are not accustomed to being around loaded guns so they are less vigilant thanks to the nanny state and the lack of right to carry laws.

I'm not saying that happened in this case but I can see where it could happen...

dirtykid
February 28, 2011, 12:24 PM
WOW !! I have been to alot of show's over the years here in MN and I thought it was a nation-wide "rule" that ALL actions have a zip-tie thru them until the dealer removes it for "inspection" .. Wouldnt that be the simplest "rule" to prevent accidents ? Our shows here typically seperate guns from ammo,, if a dealer is selling both they must have 2-seperate tables for both products,even if they only have 10-box's of ammo they must pay-for an additional "table fee" to display them seperate,,

JoeMal
February 28, 2011, 12:52 PM
Ran for the door?
Just saying...You must like being shot. I don't. If it was an attack, here in Illinois, we have no way to protect ourselves due to the inability to OC or CC. It seemed much safer outside where guns were not being fired. Call it cowardly, or whatever you feel like; maybe I respect my life more than others

stonecutter2
February 28, 2011, 01:42 PM
I'm not so sure it's for the better. It's yet another crutch meant to protect people from themselves. All it does is continue to breed this mentality that it's OK to walk through life in a fog. What's going to happen when these guns leave the show? Is there always going to be someone around to put a zip-tie through the action?

You may be thinking that this is good for the rest of the participants. Maybe. But what happens when this same numbskull goes to the range for the first time and kills the guy in the lane next to him? Or what happens when he "cleans" it for the first time while his kid is in the next room watching TV?
Everyone attending these shows aren't shooters, or old enough to handle weapons. There are many families, grandparents with grandchildren, etc enjoying talking about shooting sports and talking with veterans, or talking with friends and vendors they've gotten to know.

Making absolutely sure that the gun show is a safe environment is paramount in my opinion, so yes I think their changes are for the better.

No one should enter a gun show feeling that they're in an unsafe environment. The organizers of the show made sure that Sunday felt a whole lot safer than Saturday, and in my opinion the show should have been as safe on Saturday as they made it on Sunday.

stonecutter2
February 28, 2011, 02:03 PM
No, what I'm saying is that in the attempt to make all things inherently safe, we're creating a society of people who live in a fog and take their safety for granted.

Look at cars. People feel so darn safe in their cars now-a-days that they eat with one hand while talking on the phone with the other. And let's not forget how all-wheel drive, traction control, and ABS just makes people think they can do 80 mph in snow.

My point is that zip-tying the actions may have the desired effect, but it just thickens the fog that the lemmings are already living in.
Maybe it's living in a nanny state, or being a lemming in a fog - call it whatever you want.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

I call it less chance of getting a bullet hole through me when I'm expecting my first child in September, because someone paid their $10 for an Illinois FOID card, is ignorant to gun safety and they're around tons of guns and tons of ammunition in a gun show that lets anyone in for $5.

2WheelsGood
February 28, 2011, 02:05 PM
Everyone attending these shows aren't shooters, or old enough to handle weapons.
Gun shows aren't Disneyland. If your kids aren't under control they shouldn't be anywhere near guns or gun shows.

Making absolutely sure that the gun show is a safe environment is paramount in my opinion...

Your attitude is why you aren't allowed to carry a gun where you live. The only way to make absolutely sure, as you put it, that nobody can be harmed by a gun is to keep them out of people's hands.

2WheelsGood
February 28, 2011, 02:07 PM
I call it less chance of getting a bullet hole through me...You sound like a gun control advocate. That's their logic too.

X-Rap
February 28, 2011, 02:15 PM
The nature of our free society puts us at risk to the fools among us. Foid, CW permit, hunter safety, POST certified, military vet or active. Out of 100 of any of these groups how many fools could you find? They are the ones who we presume to have at least basic knowledge of firearms, what about Joe blow off the street.
We endanger our freedom by wishing for more laws from the government to make us safer, I applaud the gun shows that take the safety initiatives on themselves be it zip ties on actions or mandatory unloaded carry guns.

stonecutter2
February 28, 2011, 02:18 PM
Gun shows aren't Disneyland. If your kids aren't under control they shouldn't be anywhere near guns or gun shows.



Your attitude is why you aren't allowed to carry a gun where you live. The only way to make absolutely sure, as you put it, that nobody can be harmed by a gun is to keep them out of people's hands.
We'll agree to disagree.

I don't see the big deal about using zip ties to secure guns in a crowded environment, filled with people who aren't necessarily conscientious about gun safety. You do. Zip ties are easily removed and reapplied on empty chambers as needed.

Honestly, I also don't take kindly to the low blow regarding why we can't have legal carry in this state. My attitude (as you put it) has nothing to do with denying our right to do so - it's almost squarely on the shoulders of Chicago Democrats who refuse to let it go up for a fair vote. Twisting my words around to that end, when I'm just a concerned gun owner about what happened on Saturday, doesn't seem very high road to me.

stonecutter2
February 28, 2011, 02:21 PM
You sound like a gun control advocate. That's their logic too.
I'm not even dignifying this with a response.

2WheelsGood
February 28, 2011, 02:22 PM
Honestly, I also don't take kindly to the low blow regarding why we can't have legal carry in this state.Why is that a low blow? You stated that you want an absolute guarantee to safety, and I'm just telling you that same premise is what drives gun control advocates.

stonecutter2
February 28, 2011, 02:36 PM
Why is that a low blow? You stated that you want an absolute guarantee to safety, and I'm just telling you that same premise is what drives gun control advocates.
I got a sense of absolute safety, illusion or otherwise, by actions being zip tied open.

The low blow was your insinuation i have anything personally to do with carry laws not passing in this state "Your attitude is why...". I've done quite a bit to aid the cause of getting carry laws to pass in IL.

I am far from a gun control advocate. If your goal was to hit a nerve, mission accomplished.

I don't doubt that I poorly expressed myself in my posts, and your dissection of my words have shown that I have. Just don't accuse me of being a gun control advocate.

2WheelsGood
February 28, 2011, 03:26 PM
I got a sense of absolute safety, illusion or otherwise, by actions being zip tied open.Now you're misunderstanding me. My comment wasn't about the zip-ties. My comment was about your desire for "absolute safety" <-- your words. I'm saying the anti's desire for absolute safety is the reason they use for wanting more gun control. Therefor the comparison.

illinisnare
February 28, 2011, 08:53 PM
Not sure about that. It looks to me like the vendor let someone handle a weapon without seeing his FOID card. Secondly, the gun was apparently placed on display loaded by the vendor. I am pretty sure a good lawyer could show that the vendor was at least complicit and partially responsible for the bad outcome here.

Read the law - it doesn't require you to show a FOID to look at a gun. There are quite a few of us out there who will choose not to do business with a FFL who chooses to do this. If I'm going to buy the gun, FOID and 4473 are understood.

DM0217
February 28, 2011, 08:58 PM
I teach high school kids gun safety. M.A.T. Muzzle, Action, Trigger. Hasn't changed. Never will. Trigger man was wrong. Plain and simple. I've attended gun show's where young teen-aged kids were walking around by themselves looking into the muzzle end of a revolver. Sheeple are everywhere. Every firearm is loaded until you check it.

isp2605
February 28, 2011, 09:18 PM
I got to Bloomington as they were hauling off the injured. I rarely miss the Bloomington show.
They use to require all firearms to be zip tied open. However, many of the dealers complained that requiring the actions to stay zip tied hurt their sales and they couldn't properly examine guns they were taking in on trade or buying so the zip tie requirement was dropped. Now they just tell the people with tables to make sure their guns are unloaded. It's on the honor system.
Having attended gun shows for over 50 years I've learned there are plenty of knuckleheads on both sides of the tables. Just having an FFL or buying a table for the weekend doesn't instill extra smarts in a person and some of them go out of their way to prove that.

Panzercat
February 28, 2011, 09:35 PM
You must like being shot. I don't. If it was an attack, here in Illinois, we have no way to protect ourselves due to the inability to OC or CC. It seemed much safer outside where guns were not being fired. Call it cowardly, or whatever you feel like; maybe I respect my life more than others.

"Initially, everyone stopped and stared in the direction in shock. After a few seconds, somebody yelled "Call 911" and that started the panic. Lots of people started charging for the doors, myself included. I was close to one of the doors, so my exit was pretty easy."

Okay.

marv
February 28, 2011, 09:48 PM
I heard on News at 6 this eve that one of the guys shot was in the hosp in critical condition.

PastTense
February 28, 2011, 10:26 PM
Another followup:
"...
Emery said the investigation into the incident is ongoing. The federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms is working with the sheriff's office to determine if federal rules against having loaded weapons at a gun show were violated and if so, by whom, said the sheriff.
"The bureau will be conducting ballistic tests and analyzing the weapon to see why it discharged," Emery said. "They are the experts when it comes to these matters."

Emery said Gift was unsure if his finger was near the trigger when he placed the rifle back on the table.

No charges were filed as of Monday, but guns with ammunition are not allowed at gun sales.

"Once the final report is complete, I will review it and make a determination about charges at that time," McLean County State's Attorney Bill Yoder said.

The rifle is owned by Scott Simpson of Hoopeston. Emery said Simpson gave it to Robert Rigdon of Gold and Diamond Exchange Pawn Shop Inc. of Urbana, who was to sell it on consignment.

It was not clear Monday when the round was placed in the gun or who placed it there.
...
"The investigation is continuing into why this weapon was loaded and on display," Emery said. "We know that the weapon was on consignment through the vendor. What we continue to investigate is if the owner safety-checked the weapon prior to turning it over to the vendor and if the vendor performed a safety check prior to placing it on display....
http://www.pantagraph.com/news/local/article_0416d7fa-4393-11e0-9cee-001cc4c03286.html

JoeMal
February 28, 2011, 10:29 PM
I heard on News at 6 this eve that one of the guys shot was in the hosp in critical condition. You heard correctly

X-Rap
February 28, 2011, 10:33 PM
Sounds like there were a lot of opportunities to avoid this.

Davek1977
March 1, 2011, 05:40 AM
Sounds like there were a lot of opportunities to avoid this. Just as there are with most firearm "accidents". A little common sense goes a LONG way towards preventing this sort of thing, and the fact the "shooter" was "unaware" of whether or not his finger was anywhere near the trigger only offers further proof that follwong the 4 rules WOULD (NOT could ) have prevented this from ever happening. Complacency has no business in the world of firearms, as it all too often leads to laziness and a lack of attention to detail....

M2MikeGolf
March 1, 2011, 06:39 AM
I would be very interested to hear if it is ever determined exactly how the weapon got loaded. As has been mentioned the violation of rule #1 resulted in this bit of negligence, which brings me to a subject near and dear to my heart. It is unimportant if an "antigunner" tried to plant a round, it should have been caught by a "progunner" long before.

In the course of my twenty four years as an Infantryman, Bradley Master Gunner (which simply means I spent a lot of time training units on using and how to use live fire ranges), senior NCO and responsible gun owner, I observed some shocking instances of firearms safety violations, some resulting in deaths. When I was in Iraq, one of the most dangerous places were the clearing barrels placed at the entrance way to forward operating bases. Often, many units would be there clearing weapons, with the theater wide policy being mandatory of doing so (due to the fact that negligent discharges were frequent inside the FOBs in past experiences). I witnessed numerous events which would startle most veteran gun owners, whether they served in the military or in LE or not. Many individuals simply don't understand how semi- and fully automatic weapons work (in the military, they can be very different), even trained personnel (which, on some level, they all should be)! However, the clearing barrels helped save lives by requiring the idiot to place the barrel of the weapon into a barrel filled with sand. The Army rarely referred to an incident as accidental ,but referred to them as negligent and my unit (1st Infantry Division) required some form of Uniform Code of Military Justice punishment be meted out to offenders. I could cite stories that would shock you of the violations that I witnessed both in combat zones, peace-keeping missions and on ranges at homestations/garrisons, by all ranks, duty descriptions, etc.

It's really easy, never assume a firearm is unloaded, even in your own house. Recently, I took a hunting course here in Germany where I live and work (for the US Army, but I'm retired Army now). The instructor, who was an American, brought a scoped rifle in to demonstrate how to measure the eye relief distance for an individual. I watched him clear the rifle, then he had each of us come up and check the eye relief. Not one of us, including myself, cleared his rifle, and yet I knew I should have, I didn't want him to think I was being cheeky by double checking him. He didn't say a word until everyone was through, and then he told us that the normal German run course instructors would have failed us for not clearing the rifle (he gave us all a break). It was an excellent teaching point. Unless you yourself clear a weapon, you must assume it is loaded, plain and simple.

lastditch
March 1, 2011, 08:30 AM
Sometimes discharges are caused by a thing I call double stupidity. About 20 years ago at the Greensboro NC gunshow a AD happened about 10 feet from yours tryly. Seems a redneck pulled a .25 Baby Browning from his trouser band and handed it to a dealer inquiring about its worth. Dealer pulls trigger and sends round through is left hand and into the stock of about a $1500 Browning shotgun at the next table. Keystone comedy follows as the dealers hand is wrapped in towels and ice, redneck tries to recover gun and slink away, and dealer wants to know who is responaible for his damaged shotgun. In this case stupid met stupid. And by the way, that .25 sounded like a .44 mag in those circumstances.:what:

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