Dallas Police Forced To Shoot, Kill Woman


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TheeBadOne
January 5, 2004, 10:54 AM
DALLAS -- Dallas police said they were forced to shoot and kill a woman after she lunged at officers with a box cutter at an Oak Cliff Hotel off of Marvin D. Love freeway Saturday morning.

After a disagreement between two hotel guests over a parking space, Dallas police said they responded to a call at the Royal Hotel around 9 a.m.

When police and the hotel manager went to the woman's room, she opened the door -- cutting the manager with a box cutter, police said.

At that point, officers said they backed off and called for backup.

When police went back into the room, they told the 49-year-old woman to come out of the bathroom, later firing a pepper ball.

Authorities said the woman charged out of the bathroom directly for the sergeant, with a box cutter. The sergeant got a cut on his leg before two other officers opened fire, striking the woman multiple times.

The sergeant, who was cut, took a bullet in the foot while officers shot at the suspect.

The suspect's son, Everett Young, called the shooting "excessive force."

Young said his mother had been in and out of several mental institutions over the past year. He said his mother suffered from schizophrenia and had run-ins with the police before -- but never anything like this.

article (http://www.nbc5i.com/news/2739145/detail.html)
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Sad, but I guess it also shows that "less-lethal" weapons aren't 100%, and why they must be backed up with deadly force in the event they fail.

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bvmjethead
January 5, 2004, 10:56 AM
Uh, pepper spray probable could have been tried.

TheeBadOne
January 5, 2004, 11:10 AM
later firing a pepper ball.

TallPine
January 5, 2004, 11:19 AM
Having dealt with some people like that, I can say that they can turn into something like an animal sometimes.

Marko Kloos
January 5, 2004, 11:23 AM
A box cutter is a lethal weapon. I'd have smoked her, too. The officers didn't have an obligation to wait until she opened someone's carotid artery.

On a side note, if mom had a history of run-ins with the po-po, and she couldn't be trusted not to cut people with box cutters, what the hell was she doing outside a mental institution?

Azrael256
January 5, 2004, 11:33 AM
If you're from Dallas, which I am (dad was a Dep. Chief with DPD), you hear the words "Oak Cliff" and you just kinda *know*. It's the part of town that makes you wonder why this shooting made news and not the other 13 that happened there last night.

Beren
January 5, 2004, 11:36 AM
The only thing I, Mr. Monday Morning Tactical Advisor, might have changed, would have been to request a K-9 unit as backup. Send the dog in to disarm her and take her down. Not fun, but better a badly bitten wrist and maybe a sliced up dog (God bless 'em, I love them as much as anyone) than a dead person if it can be helped.

I think in the future we're going to see police armed with a variety of "less than lethal" alternatives for situations like this, where the suspect is contained but too dangerous to approach.

Otherwise, it's a shame, but a crazy person attacking someone with a boxcutter is certainly grounds for employing lethal force.

TheeBadOne
January 5, 2004, 11:37 AM
Azrael256 I take it that's an "exciting" part of town?

HogRider
January 5, 2004, 11:41 AM
He said his mother suffered from schizophrenia and had run-ins with the police before -- but never anything like this.

People die only once, usually.

Azrael256
January 5, 2004, 12:30 PM
TheeBadOne, it used to be a really nice part of town... or so I'm told. I think that was about 50 years ago. IIRC, it used to be a separate incorporated city that was absorbed by Dallas many years ago. Like a lot of "used to be a nice part of town" areas, the money moved North into the city, and the dopeheads and gangstas moved in. If there's going to be a shooting in Dallas, put your money on the Oak Cliff or Pleasant Grove areas every time. (btw, Pleasant Grove spawned the Dallas-speak word 'grovite.' Suffice it to say that none of the convenience stores around there have a 'No shirt, no shoes' sign. They'd lose all their business.)

Unfortunately, that part of town is where a dispute over a parking space leads to gunfire even without the assistance of a mentally debilitating disease.

The sergeant, who was cut, took a bullet in the foot while officers shot at the suspect. Y'know, there's another thing. Since dad was a Dep. Chief (that's about 3rd in line as far as command staff in Dallas. He had one star on his collar.), we heard about EVERY big event like that. Dad had this gigantic pager thing (it was the 80s) that went off WAY too frequently. Anybody who has ever been a cop in a big city probably knows this, but officers seem to get shot up an awful lot by their comrades. I recall a number of fatal blue-on-blue shootings in Dallas when I was a kid. I also recall one that was... well... it probably hurt the officer pretty bad, but the humor was too great to ignore. He put a 9mm FMJ through his left palm. It was an unpleasant mess, but the jokes about it were pretty darn funny when he got back to work. I'll leave it to your imagination to figure out just what I'm talking about.

fix
January 5, 2004, 12:34 PM
No point in questioning the shooting. The officers were defending themselves. Clean shoot.

TheeBadOne
January 5, 2004, 12:38 PM
Azrael256 sounds sadly like once it became part of the big city that the moneys that use to be used for it's own revitalization were spent elsewhere, leaving the area high and dry. :(

Sylvilagus Aquaticus
January 5, 2004, 01:00 PM
Azrael is quite correct. Many parts of Oak Cliff are indistinguishable from many third-world pits, as are other parts of southern Dallas County. Still, there are other parts that are still very gentrified with homes passed down from generation to generation, some that would be appraised for upwards of a half million dollars and higher. Many Dallas community leaders live there (including the mayor), yet it's almost a given that when you hear the first sentence of a news report "last night in the Oak Cliff area..." you can usually fill in the blank with your worst-case scenario and not be too inaccurate.

This sounds like 'just another nut' call with unfortunately predictable results. Sounds like someone was turned out of the institution when they shouldn't have been and noone checked to make sure she had her medications on board.

She was a danger to herself and others and should have not been streeted.

Regards,
Rabbit.

Blackcloud6
January 5, 2004, 01:01 PM
I guess she didn't watch the Chris Rock video.

R-Tex12
January 5, 2004, 02:24 PM
later firing a pepper ball.

That's a new one to me. What's a pepper ball? Something like a mini-tear gas canister?

R-Tex

TheeBadOne
January 5, 2004, 02:25 PM
Think of it as a Bean Bag round that also contains OC (pepper spray) powder that is released upon impact.

cratz2
January 5, 2004, 02:35 PM
Yeah... I think if young Everett was concerned for his mother's well being, he should have tried more diligently to ensure she was in a mental health facility instead of weilding box cutters at police officers in hotels in questionable (at best) areas of town. And the quote should have been, 'I wish I could have been there to help control the situation' rather than questioning the officers use of force.

I mean, I hate to see anyone be killed and I'm sure it didn't make those officers' day to have to do so, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do and if someone runs at a family member with a box cutter, they're gonna be put down.

SMLE
January 5, 2004, 02:39 PM
She was a danger to herself and others and should have not been streeted.
Try telling the ACLU that. They're the ones who screamed and howled about how the poor nut job's "civil rights" were being violated by keeping them in a nice clean hospital where they could recieve their medication regularly. Nut jobs have an inalienable right to live on the street, but there is no constitutional right to own a gun.
:cuss: :cuss: :cuss:

As for the cops in this incident, didn't the sarge have a stick? Does DPD use tasers? There are levels of force available that are between pepper balls and hollow points. And, R-Tex12, you're basically right about what a pepper ball is. It's actually a paint ball filled with OC powder.

TheeBadOne
January 5, 2004, 02:52 PM
Try telling the ACLU that. They're the ones who screamed and howled about how the poor nut job's "civil rights" were being violated by keeping them in a nice clean hospital where they could recieve their medication regularly.
You raise an interesting point. In college (psychology classes) I was told that 100 years ago these types of incidents were far more rare as "sanitariums" were full of people with mental health issues. Medical science advanced where many of their problems (or at least symtoms) could be treated/controlled with medication. The result was that many people who would have formerly been locked away for their entire life could now function normally in regular life as long as their were on medication. There in lies the rub. The very nature of many of these illnesses make the person not want to take medication, and there is no one to ensure they take it. I do not have an answer (at least not a realistic one, ie:affordable/civil rights, etc).

2 cents

yayarx7
January 5, 2004, 03:09 PM
The only thing I, Mr. Monday Morning Tactical Advisor, might have changed, would have been to request a K-9 unit as backup. Send the dog in to disarm her and take her down. Not fun, but better a badly bitten wrist and maybe a sliced up dog (God bless 'em, I love them as much as anyone) than a dead person if it can be helped.

Sounds like a good way to get a good dog cut up. I think it probably went down as good as it could. Of course you always wish that nobody gets cut or shot.

Matt G
January 5, 2004, 03:19 PM
Word is, the sergeant was cut in the high thigh. If on the inside high thigh, that's REALLY getting close to the femoral artery, and is a favorite knife fighter's target.

"Excessive force"?!? Well, the son is bound to be distraught. His mother's dead. It's best not to overly-harshly judge a man who's just seen his mother killed in her living room; he's not likely to be in his right mind. Fromm said that when a man is confronted with unusual circumstances, it is not odd for him to act unusually. :(

Dannyboy
January 5, 2004, 03:45 PM
Sounds like a good way to get a good dog cut up
So, it's better for an officer to get cut and shot than the dog?

R-Tex12
January 5, 2004, 04:17 PM
Thanks, TBO and SMLE!

R-Tex

SapperLeader
January 5, 2004, 04:41 PM
Im sorry, but a box cutter is a potential weapon. If she had done the same thing with a screwdriver, it would have been the same scenario. THe officer was cut, ok, so it turned out not to be too bad, but you see your buddy get cut, bloods spurting, and she has something sharp, I dont think any of us would have been getting out the oc spray. I would like to hear more, but so far it sounds like a good shoot to me.

Mike Irwin
January 5, 2004, 05:31 PM
"The suspect's son, Everett Young, called the shooting "excessive force."


Based on what's described in the article, it sounds like a good shoot to me. She's already slashed the manager, refuses to cooperate with police demands, and then attacks an officer with a very sharp, very potentially lethal object.


I think the object lesson here is if you don't want to be shot by police, don't attack them with a razor knife.

Bob F.
January 5, 2004, 05:35 PM
Sounds like a good, though regrettable, shoot to me. 9/11/01=boxcutters?!
Like to have seen a taser used first, IF POSSIBLE! I've heard stories of thm failing, too. Drugs/mental status can make a big difference.

GAC
January 5, 2004, 11:27 PM
I had family that lived in Oak Cliff the past 30 years or more. They live in the "gentrified" area mentioned before. It's on Colorado Blvd and a very nice neighborhood. But, the crappy neighborhoods were not too far away. I lived there for a year after college and would occasionally hear gunfire in the evenings . My uncle said people would go down to the park up the street and shoot a few rounds in the air and leave.

I was talking to my uncle one evening and he said how a white neighbor - must have been in the late sixties, early seventies - was looking to fly on out of there once "other" people started to move in. The neighbor was afraid of dropping property values and crime and whatnot. Turns out he was wrong for that neighborhhood, my uncle's home on a corner lot is surely worth more than 500 grand.

Sylvilagus Aquaticus
January 5, 2004, 11:47 PM
Update from The Dallas Morning News/WFAA website.

Post-game analysis from local MH folks.
-------------------------------------------------------
Mental health advocates: Death was preventable
06:09 PM CST on Monday, January 5, 2004

By BRETT SHIPP / WFAA-TV

Last summer in downtown Dallas, police were confronted by a mentally disturbed man with a knife posing a danger to himself and to police. The man was subdued with the use of a pepper ball gun. In the case of Diann Kemp two days ago, the pepper balls did not work. Kemp stabbed an officer before she was shot dead by Dallas police. Her son said police ignored his mother's mental history and that her death could have been prevented.

Everett Young said police were aware of his mother's condition. "When they type that name into the computer in that car they know how to handle the situation," he said.

Acting Police Chief Randy Hampton acknowledged that patients who are mentally ill create a special concern for officers, but local mental health expert Vivian Lawrence said a specially trained officer may have helped spare Kemp's life.

"A person with mental illness can't respond quickly, they need time to process what's going on," she said. "An officer trained as a mental health officer understands that. They will ask them a question, give them time to respond and then ask them another question.

The Mental Health Association of Greater Dallas has been lobbying local law enforcement to train more officers to help de-escalate incidents involving violent patients who are mentally ill. Representatives assert the city has never shown much interest in using concepts successfully adopted in Houston and Austin.

Lawrence said the killing of Diann Kemp was probably justifiable but also probably preventable.

Acting Chief Hampton will awaiting the outcome of the department's internal investigation before deciding to make changes in how mentally-ill suspects are handled.


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Online at: http://www.wfaa.com/latestnews/stories/wfaa040105_jml_6dpd.112b14f1e.html


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Regards,
Rabbit.

LoneWulf
January 6, 2004, 01:05 AM
Justified shoot.

I am trained in Crisis Intervention with the mental health community.
I have successfully resolved a few situations, none as hostile as this one, and having the training can definitely help.
However, there is no reason to risk the safety of anyone for the sake of an out of control mental patient.
I am genuinely sympathetic to schizophrenics, they did not ask for their condition, but I will not risk my life unduly or my fellow officers lives because they have a chemical imbalance.

Not a good situation for anyone that was involved, not good at all. :(

BluesBear
January 6, 2004, 09:17 AM
Young said his mother had been in and out of several mental institutions over the past year.
Well now she's out for good.
He said his mother suffered from schizophrenia...
That's why they had to fire multiple times. Once for each personality.



I used to be schizophrenic but now we're much better.

tyme
January 6, 2004, 10:56 AM
I know treating schizophrenia as MPD (Multiple Personality Disorder) was necessary for the joke, but it's important to note that schizophrenia is not MPD.

As a current and past Dallas resident, I have to agree that most of Oak Cliff is a disaster. On the other hand, there's a really good violin shop there.

TheEgg
January 6, 2004, 01:31 PM
Lawrence said the killing of Diann Kemp was probably justifiable but also probably preventable.

If you changed this quote to say "also might have been preventable", I think you would cover it. To say "probably" is too strong, because even if a Taser was used, trained officers in intervention where there, etc., the scenario might have ended the same way. But maybe not. Speculation at best, in either case.

Folks, I work in south Dallas most days --- it is one of the reasons I NEVER leave home un-armed. Last year a person was shot and killed for about $8 at the bus stop about 150 ft. from my office. -- and sadly, that is/was not an isolated incident. :(

artherd
January 6, 2004, 04:07 PM
The only thing they did wrong was let her get close enough to cut them, and HAVE AN ND INTO HIS PARTNER'S FOOT!


Kudos to them for trying the OC Ball. It didn't work, that's why they also have guns.


I understand the son is upset, but he should be blaming himself, not the cops.

chetrogers
January 6, 2004, 04:21 PM
I cant see how anyone could think it was excessive..If I was to do what she did then run at offices with knife i would expect to get shot.And if somebody broke into my house and at me was coming with a knife my first instint would be to unload in them..Not think on how to disable the weapon..Just my opinion and i dont think its better then anyone elses.

keyhole
January 6, 2004, 04:27 PM
IMO- justified


Will be "Monday morning q-backed" for a long time, like most shootings. Unregrettable, and sorry for the officers that went thru it.

aerod1
January 6, 2004, 09:56 PM
As a young boy, I lived in the Oak Cliff part of Dallas until I was 10 yrs old. It used to be a very good area but there is a reason my parents chose to move in 1954. Now you know the reason.
This shooting was justifiable IMHO.

Jim Hall

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