9mm+P, is it worth it?


PDA






Ben86
February 28, 2011, 03:36 PM
With the added recoil, muzzle flash, noise and wear on your gun do you think 9mm+P ammo is worth it in order to have a marginal increase in velocity? I'm having a tough time deciding this one, so I'd like to gather some opinions and maybe gain some valuable insight.

If you enjoyed reading about "9mm+P, is it worth it?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
jawn
February 28, 2011, 03:49 PM
A lot of modern 9mm handguns are built for 9mm NATO (more or less +P). The wear will be marginal with a lot of guns on the market.

Muzzle flash varies from brand-to-brand. Recoil can be trained for.

There are seemingly a lot more options for defensive 9MM+P ammunition, so there's that. But if you're using it as a defensive round, go with what you're comfortable using. There's no point in having hotter ammo if you can't hit your target with it.

Nushif
February 28, 2011, 04:02 PM
Meh. I never thought it was.
A standard 9mm is going to make the BGs day bad. A +P will probably make it worse, but not so much that I can justify the cost to practice with the things.

AZ Five seveN
February 28, 2011, 04:02 PM
It just depends if you prefer slow and heavy or light and fast. There is no real noticeable difference in muzzle flash, at least not that I have noticed, and I carry Win Ranger-T 127gr +P+ in my 9mm.

The reason manufacturers developed 9mm +P and +P+ round is the original 115gr round was/is a subpar performer. Modern 9mm handguns can easily handle the increased pressure from +P and +P+ rounds, as long as the manufacturer says they can.

What are you carrying now?

NG VI
February 28, 2011, 04:18 PM
Any modern handgun, well not something like the Rorbaugh, but that's not in any way a typical 9mm, won't show any noticeable increase in wear shooting +P 9mm.

As far as whether it's worth it to you from the shooter's standpoint, that's subjective. I've got to say I didn't usually notice much difference going from one to the other, I mean it was there but nothing that really stopped me from shooting any better.

NG VI
February 28, 2011, 04:20 PM
Oh yeah if we're talking about defense ammo, I never saw a load that cost more for the +P version of the same thing. For instance, the 147 HST and the 147+P HST cost the same. The 124+P HST and 124 HST and the 147s cost the same. Gold Dots in standard or +P cost the same.

So actual cost was never a factor for me.

Ben86
February 28, 2011, 04:24 PM
What are you carrying now?

Right now I'm using 124 grain gold dots, standard pressure in both my CCW and HD pistol. I picked up some winchester 124 grain +P pdx1, but I'm not sure if I want to carry it. I guess I'll really have to shoot it to make sure, although I'd hate buying more. I have shot 9mm nato in my CCW (glock 26), is that comparable to shooting 9mm+P?

NG VI
February 28, 2011, 04:29 PM
I've heard it both ways, I think the NATO stuff is supposed to be pretty hot, but I've shot some that felt average all around.

kev778
February 28, 2011, 04:33 PM
Sounds like it's not worth it.

9mmepiphany
February 28, 2011, 04:58 PM
All I carry in my defensive 9mms are +P and +P+ loadings

I accept that they produce more wear to the gun and increase my maintenance level to accommodate that. The trade off is worth it to me for the handling qualities of the guns I choose to carry

tycham
February 28, 2011, 05:19 PM
Looking at the various gelatin test, both rounds will probably over penertrate so it is more on what you want to achievenot on is it better. Velocity is not translated into impactenergy unless it is 100% absorbed. That has been demostrated many times.

NG VI
February 28, 2011, 05:22 PM
At gun fighting distance of about 10 feet, that hot stuff is going to blow right through a bad guy and could cause unintended collateral damage. Not to mention the excessive wear and tear on your weapon. That just don't make good sense to me.

Talking at most 10% higher pressure than ordinary 9mm, not replacing your 9mm with a .45-70 Contender. No need to get crazy dramatic here.


How many gun fights have you been in there brother blue, if you really are? I was in one in 35 years and shot the perp in the foot with a 158 grain ball .38 caliber load out of a S&W model 36. They was blood every where screaming and yelling and he gave up his weapon immediately. Now we are talking about civilian CCW for protection and you sound like you have a Rambo Syndrome.

I think you are the only person here who thinks deciding on an ammunition type makes someone sound like they have "Rambo Syndrome". +P JHP loads are absolutely ordinary, no one here is talking about trying to carry one of those Draco AK pistols or anything.

And I can't help but be put off by the disrespect you're showing a respected member of the THR community. I'm glad you had a good resolution the one time you shot someone, if it even happened, with your RNL .38, if it even exists, but try to lighten up Francis.

NG VI
February 28, 2011, 05:25 PM
Looking at the various gelatin test, both rounds will probably over penertrate so it is more on what you want to achievenot on is it better.


Uhhh... any of the decently designed 9mm JHP bullets wil most likely not overpenetrate. They, along with the 155-180 grain .40 and 185-230 grain .45 loads are at a nice sweet spot that easily allows bullet designers to get the performance they are looking for. 12-16" of penetration, expansion around 2x caliber, that's not overpenetration or wishful thinking, it's what's expected of a good service load today.

Frozen North
February 28, 2011, 05:34 PM
I find the recoil very manageable in my Glock 26 with Winchester Ranger T 127 +p+. I find that the muzzle flash is LESS with this load than the standard ball ammo I plink with. The cheapest CCI blazers blow flames in the dark, this stuff is barely noticeable unless it is very dark outside.

NG VI
February 28, 2011, 05:39 PM
+P and +P+ ammo is way overkill for civilian personal protection use.


Lemme get this straight, you think anything other than standard pressure 9mm and 158 grain round nosed lead .38 special is way overkill for personal protection? If you think a five to ten percent pressure boost for the 9mm is way overkill, what about .40? .357 Magnum? .357 Sig? .45 Auto?


I'm just curious why +P 9mm is way overkill to you.

ForumSurfer
February 28, 2011, 05:46 PM
All I carry in my defensive 9mms are +P and +P+ loadings

Same here.

I honestly don't notice much difference in recoil and muzzle flash. I just picked up 3rd plastic wonder weapon a few weeks ago, a gen4 glock 19. I'm over 1000 rounds into it (200 I'm guessing were =P or +p+) and when I wear it out I'll remember that someone said +p+ and +p were bad...but that should be about 8-10 years from now, or maybe never.

From the ballistics test I've researched, I hardly see where +p+ or +p is all rambo-fied. If it is, we better scrap 357 sig and 40 S&W, too.

Ben86
February 28, 2011, 05:50 PM
Uptown,

Have you ever heard of trolling? Lets not have any of that here. We can disagree, have conflicting experiences, and still be civil. I'd like us to have a logical and respectful discussion here.

Fisherdave10
February 28, 2011, 06:09 PM
"At gun fighting distance of about 10 feet, that hot stuff is going to blow right through a bad guy and could cause unintended collateral damage. Not to mention the excessive wear and tear on your weapon. That just don't make good sense to me. "

@Uptown Come on, just because the "hot stuff" has slightly higher velocity than the standard version doesn't mean it is going to "blow right through" a bad guy. If more velocity = significant over penetration then why is a 125gr bullet at 1400 fps (357 Mag.) considered one of the best man-stoppers? If a .357 Sig blows right through a target just because it's so fast then why do the Federal Air Marshals use it? Why does the Secret Service use that caliber to protect the President? A Speer Gold Dot 9mm 124+P is 1,220fps. A standard 124 Gold dot is 1,150fps. I don't think a difference of 70fps will blow right through someone.

In all of the bullet testing I've seen whether it be on Youtube or on a manufacturer's website, a '+P' version may have slightly more penetration (sometimes less) and a slightly larger wound cavity. Also, bullets at a higher velocity seem to expand more reliably than the same bullet at a lower velocity. The increased likelihood of reliable expansion is one reason to carry +P in my book.

EDIT: Looks like Uptown is gone. Another troll bites the dust?

Frozen North
February 28, 2011, 06:14 PM
when shooting water jugs..... unscientific I know......

+p opened up more reliably and completely than standard pressure loads. I think that using standard pressure ammo in a modern pistol is selling the 9mm short.

Ludlow
February 28, 2011, 06:19 PM
I would say standard versus +P is moot compared to actual bullet construction.

AZ Five seveN
February 28, 2011, 06:19 PM
Right now I'm using 124 grain gold dots, standard pressure in both my CCW and HD pistol. I picked up some winchester 124 grain +P pdx1, but I'm not sure if I want to carry it. I guess I'll really have to shoot it to make sure, although I'd hate buying more. I have shot 9mm nato in my CCW (glock 26), is that comparable to shooting 9mm+P?

Dr. Roberts has tested nearly every JHP on the market, and these are the rounds that are proven to consistently expand, retain maximum weight and penetrate from 12"-18":

Barnes XPB 115gr HP (35515) loaded by Cor-Bon (DPX09115)
Winchester Partition Gold 124gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Ranger-T 127gr JHP +P+ (RA9TA)
Winchester Ranger-T 147gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester Bonded 147gr JHP (RA9B/Q4364)
Speer Gold Dot 124gr JHP +P (53617)
Speer Gold Dot 147gr JHP (53619)
Remington Golden Saber 147gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Federal Tactical 124gr JHP (LE9T1)
Federal Tactical 135gr JHP +P (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147gr JHP (P9HST2)

You can see that there is a good mix of normal and +P round. It just depends on the round.

gofastman
February 28, 2011, 07:59 PM
I posted this in another thread:
I see no reason to not use +P ammo. In my completely uninformed
opinion, I would venture to say most large ammo mfg's probably load their +P stuff to the very top of SAAMI max pressure for standard pressure rounds to avoid a lawsuit from some stupid (or ignorant) person blowing their gun up.
Any truth to this?

cheygriz
February 28, 2011, 08:01 PM
Many new guns, especially top of the line European models won't be 100 percent reliable until well broken in with the downloaded WWB or UMC.

+P is nothing more U.S. manufactured "standard pressure" ammo.

ttheel
February 28, 2011, 08:21 PM
In terms of self defense you better bet that its worth it. With loads like Double Tap's 115 gr +p JHP(1415 fps, 511 ft lbs energy) and Corbon 115 gr +p JHP(1350 fps, 466 ft lbs energy) you darn near get .40 cal performance.

jrod102
February 28, 2011, 09:58 PM
Modern 9mm handguns can easily handle the increased pressure from +P and +P+ rounds, as long as the manufacturer says they can.

I'm just wondering what manufacturer will give you their blessing to shoot +P+ ammo through their guns? I know some say ok to +P but +P+? I sure don't know of any. +P+ isn't even a SAAMI rated round right?
________________________________________________________________________

just because your paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you! :what:

CZ57
February 28, 2011, 10:01 PM
I'm just wondering what manufacturer will give you their blessing to shoot +P+ ammo through their guns?

Ruger used to and may still do so with their full size pistols.;)

AZ Five seveN
February 28, 2011, 10:04 PM
I'm just wondering what manufacturer will give you their blessing to shoot +P+ ammo through their guns? I know some say ok to +P but +P+? I sure don't know of any. +P+ isn't even a SAAMI rated round right?

Probably none, I was just making a point.

You'd be fine shooting +P+ out of a +P rated gun, but it will wear faster, and it shouldn't be done on a regular basis. I carry the Win Ranger-T 127gr +P+, but I've only actually put 250 rounds of +P+ through my M&P. The rest has been 115gr FMJ.

Edit: I stand corrected. See above post.

9mmepiphany
February 28, 2011, 11:24 PM
+P+ isn't even a SAAMI rated round right?

It is my understanding the +P+ means Higher pressure than +P which means the sky is the limit.

I've only regularly used two +P+ loadings during my LE career
1. 110gr .38 spl Treasury Load...which was .38 spl in name only, it was designed to be PC during the anti-magnum period
1. 127gr 9mm Ranger-T loading...which is loaded just a hair above +P (according to an OCD friend)

PabloJ
February 28, 2011, 11:36 PM
The answer to the original question is NO.

cheygriz
March 1, 2011, 12:27 AM
I was issued two +P+ loads as well. 127 +P+ Ranger "T" and 115 +P+ Federal 9BPLE.

Obviously, when on duty, I carried departmental issue. (no choice)

When I retired, I didn't see the need for the increased penetration of the winchester "T", so I switched back to 9BPLE.

From what I've experienced and seen, +P+ is perfectly safe in quality modern weapons, even for extensive use. But since it exceeds SAAMI specs by a small margin, the gun manufacturers won't "appove" for it liability reasons.

SIGLBER
March 1, 2011, 12:55 AM
Their are good performers in almost all the bullet weights now. I prefer the 124gr. +P to 127gr.+P+ loads. These have a very well established track record. The muzzle flash is a non issue. Most of the modern JHP's use powders formulated to reduce muzzle flash. They are heavy enough to get good penetration. And expand reliably. And actually what we call +P is just considered srandard NATO loads in the rest of the world.
So the non +P loads are on the light side as opposed to the +P loads being on the heavy side. At least as far as the rest of the world goes. if I were to use non +P loads I would lean towards one of the better 147gr. loads. Several of them such as the Federal HST give superb performance in this weight. The heavier bullet gives good penetration and the modern JHP design expands very well.

NG VI
March 1, 2011, 04:04 AM
Yeah maybe +P+ isn't typically SAAMI rated, but the thing is, +P+ from a big industrialized nation's manufacturer is going to be safe for a pistol anyway.

Jbabbler
March 1, 2011, 12:38 PM
Right now I'm using 124 grain gold dots, standard pressure in both my CCW and HD pistol. I picked up some winchester 124 grain +P pdx1, but I'm not sure if I want to carry it. I guess I'll really have to shoot it to make sure, although I'd hate buying more. I have shot 9mm nato in my CCW (glock 26), is that comparable to shooting 9mm+P?
Go shoot the PDX1 and see for yourself. 124gr PDX1 +P, 115gr Federal Hi-Shok +P+ and standard pressure 147gr JHP Hydra-Shok all feel about the same in my G19 and G26. All are stronger than practice 115 WWB but no where near as snappy as my G27 or G27 w/G33 barrel.

TheOhioan
March 1, 2011, 12:55 PM
I usually just look at how much the velocity increases to justify whether or not to get +p, I carry 147 grain HST, and last I looked the 147+p HST on has a very marginal increase in velocity, which in my mind wouldn't really do that much for expansion or penetration. Of course I have been wrong many times in my life and this may be no exception.

GLOOB
March 1, 2011, 02:24 PM
If you shoot enough +P ammo to wear out a modern service pistol, you've probably spent several thousand on ammo. I think you can afford to repair or replace the pistol at that point.

The way I see it, if you can shoot 40SW in what's essentially the same exact gun, +P or +P+ luger ammo is still relatively modest, in terms of recoil and gun wear.

It really depends on the gun and your recoil tolerance. For a really light weight, short barreled pocket 9, +P might not be worth it. It's like .357 mag vs .38 out of a snub. You might be better off with less recoil.

You can also get into a situation where more velocity is bad. Some hollowpoints may separate and fragment at higher velocities. This is one reason I'm not a .357SIG fan. Most of the .355" SD bullets are designed for optimal expansion and penetration at luger velocites.

Ben86
March 1, 2011, 03:46 PM
I shot a couple boxes of the PDX1 124+P yesterday through my Glock 26, and it really wasn't bad at all. It had less felt recoil than the winchester NATO rounds I shot. I'd describe as somewhere in between .40 and my usual practice ammo as far as recoil. I'm not really sensitive to recoil anyway, to me even my M&P45 is easy in rapid fire.

I'll carry it, why not? When concealed carrying I can't carry much ammo on me so why not make sure I've got some hot ammo that might get the job done even better? At least, that's my current philosophy.

If you enjoyed reading about "9mm+P, is it worth it?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!