What grip and stance do you use?

What grip and stance do you use when shooting a handgun? And also, explain why you use it.

The Weaver for several reasons. One being that it's what I've always used and is far more comfortable than the isosceles. The isosceles is not compatible with heavy recoiling revolvers, locked elbows will get you hurt. Nor is it compatible with working a single action revolver fast, which is what I shoot the most. I don't need to be thinking about what stance I should be in for what gun or load I'm shooting so I shoot them all the same, Weaver-style.

Depends.

Shooting a pistol from a holster?
Off hand supported? Main hand supported? Unsupported?
Bullseye or for speed?

I have a really odd grip when doing long pistol shots that I have never seen anyone else use, and I only use it in a single circumstance. My support hand index finger is placed at the front of and outside of the trigger guard in what would otherwise be a weaver stance and grip. I find it very stable, but it is not something that I ever go to naturally. It is a 'that shot is really, really long' realization, and then I move the one finger. I only recently started doing it (since my back surgery), but since then, it just kind of evolved. It actually evolved because I was getting a bit of shake after only a few magazines of .45, and I did it mostly out of frustration. Try locking your gun up like that. It is a slightly different feel. There is zero motion at all in the gun, something that I don't get out of any other grip. Just the hammer falling. That never used to be a problem until I got whacked with an axe through the chest, but I have a lot more weakness in my entire right arm and shoulder and it compensates for it.

I really just need to focus on shooting left handed.

Rifles and shotguns are an entirely different story.

Research the basics, then modify them to suit your individual circumstance.

Like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48

I use the same grip that Todd Jarrett uses too. It is a Modified Isosceles.

The stance is right (strong) foot a little back, you lean forward on the balls of your feet and both arms are thrust forward, but you don't lock the elbows.

The grip is with both thumbs pointing forward with most of the griping pressure coming from the support hand, something like this (sorry it isn't very clear)
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n79/9mmepiphany/DSC_2059.jpg

I used to shoot a Weaver and than a Chapman, because that's what I was taught would be the best for controlling recoil in a duty weapon. I changed to the Modified Isosceles when I was shown that it allowed faster followup shots while contributing to better accuracy.

I should add that you should learn both stances as you won't always have a choice when you'll need to shoot and you'll use both while transversing targets or shooting on the move

Weaver beats everything else out there........except for Modern Isosceles.

Grip? Thumbs forward. Why? It provides the best grip and recoil control for me personally.

Stance? It depends on the situation - modified isosceles, Weaver, reverse Weaver, Chapman, strong hand only, weak hand only, compressed, retention or expedient. Why? I don't believe any one stance is ideal nor realistic for every shooting situation. Being proficient in many techniques allows me to fluidly transition from one technique to another, depending on my body position and what is appropriate for the situation.

Never heard of strong hand only, weak hand only, compressed, retention or "expedient" (whatever that is) being described as a stance.....

Shooting techniques, yes. Stances, no.

I don't know what anyone would call it, but I face the target 90 degrees on, my firing arm(left) is straight, right hand cups the left with right elbow bent. Off side foot is forward, just like shooting a rifle.
I have shot a handgun like this for 45+ years, and it works for me. I once took a defensive class put on by the local Fraternal Order of Police, and a junior instructor kept trying to get me to change. Big Boss Daddy watched, looked at my targets, and told junior to let me be.
The only formal training I have ever had was the M14 and M16 by the US Army.

Never heard of strong hand only, weak hand only, compressed, retention or "expedient" (whatever that is) being described as a stance.....

"Expedient" is firing from a compromised body position.

"Stance" is a combination of the shooter's base (body position) and index (how the weapon is pointed at the target).

If it's a emergency where speed is the most important thing then I shoot from the hip one handed. I practice this alot with my laser Glock, .22 AACK unit on Glock 26, and full power ammo.

If less speed then I try to use a form of Isosceles with as much sight picture as I need for the shot. I do this every practice session at various speeds and ranges.

And if for some reason I cannot use both hands (it happens guys) then I step forward with my shooting side leg and again use as much sight picture as I need to make the shot. This to is practiced at various range and speeds.

And then I do it over again.... weak handed!

Deaf

Hey, let's all go practice our "Expedient Stance!" Ready? OK !

:rolleyes:

I usually lean in close, so as not to pee on the floor.........



Wait....were we talking about something else?;)

Chapman. Always - with thumbs locked DOWN, not forward (I shoot both autos and revolvers).

"If it's a emergency where speed is the most important thing then I shoot from the hip one handed."

------

Why do you spend a lot of time on shooting from the hip rather than a retention position?

Point shooting from the hip is a skill all its own and a very important one. Unfortunately, not one you can typically practice at most shooting ranges.

Center Axis Relock for shots out to 15 yards. For me it is the fastest with combat accuracy. Past 15 yards, a modified Weaver, because it is more accurate for me.

Modern Iso as demonstrated in the Todd J. video. Why? Because I am a competition shooter. FWIW, shooting on the move, while getting off the "X", etc. can be derivatives of the modern iso.

If it is to protect your life, get in a outdoor range where you can move to a great variety of positions. Stance won't be your problem, it will be your ability to aim the weapon. Lasers can be your friend in these situations.

I tried to adjust my grip and stance to what the experts said I should use. But after shooting my way for 30 or so years I just couldn't do it. Not that my form is bad, it's just not anything recommended. I shoot just as well as anyone who uses a "standard" shooting form. I gave up trying to make changes after I saw a few hickok45 videos. He shoots just fine with his own form and mentioned several times to just use what works for you.

The reason I use the Damon555 stance and grip is because it works for me......

I just kind of face the target and hold the gun tight enough that it doesn't fly back and hit me between the eyes.

A couple months ago I did try facing away from the target, at 10 yards, bending over and shooting between my legs. The shooting was OK but that "stance" probably wouldn't go over at most public ranges.:D
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x464/Bell-helicopter-407/Shootbetweenlegs.jpg

Hey, let's all go practice our "Expedient Stance!" Ready? OK !

As a combative shooter, I believe it's important to train for the unexpected with unconventional body positions that I may inconveniently find myself in. This way I know what works and what doesn't, what I should and should not do, and what I can and cannot do.

I believe it's important to train for the unexpected with unconventional body positions that I may inconveniently find myself in.
+1

And I'm sure your are proficient in shooting such as weak hand, weak eye, etc, which some folks never practice. :)

As a combative poster, I believe it's important to train for the unexpected with unconventional body positions that I may inconveniently find myself in. This way I know what works and what doesn't, what I should and should not do, and what I can and cannot do.

Of course, which is why we should all train in various techniques.

My shooting stance allows for fast, accurate shooting from the arms out. It doesn't matter what the rest of the body is doing or not doing.

I've found that anyone can be accurate, even using a poor stance, shooting slowfire. I've found these same people who previously claimed to be "good" not be able to hit squat when rapid, accurate fire is called for.

Center Axis Relock for shots out to 15 yards. For me it is the fastest with combat accuracy.

I thought this "flavor of the week" had long since faded away....

I did a quick search on Youtube and found a couple amusing videos demonstrating this "stance" from about 2 yds. The guy is ALL OVER the target, but at least he was shooting fairly slow.....:rolleyes:

I just stand naturally and run a mag with strong, weak, both ... I suck but I hit COM at 10 yards every time.

I predict that I will hit squat at that distance while being shot at, and hopefully my perp is doused with gasoline because I will be shooting at the perp at 1 inch away and the muzzle flash will hopefully ignite the perp.

Modern Iso or whatever it's called.

It just feels right, but I'm a youngin' so I was never really introduced to the weaver and whatnot.

lol

It doesn't matter what the rest of the body is doing or not doing. Unstable ground (slippery mud, loose gravel, snow, ice), uneven ground (embankment, gully, hillside, steps), using one hand to hold onto something to maintain balance on unstable/uneven ground, reverse footing, knocked onto one's @ss, physical struggle on feet, ground struggle, sitting at a table/booth, sitting in a vehicle - "Weaver beats everything else out there........except for Modern Isosceles."

There is a reason that all the top flight competition shooters, elite military, and top flight LE units all use a variation of the same stance/grip combo, the Modern Iso.

What is interesting though is I find that the more I shoot, the mutable my definition of "stance" gets. My grip is always the same thumbs forward grip that Todd Jarrett, Rob Leatham, etc teach because it's really the best way to hold a gun. But my "stance", where I position my feet depends entirely on what I'm doing. In this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUvb2rIlpfU), my stance changes depending on what I want to do next. If I'm going to be moving, then my weight will be differently distributed than if I had a static stage. If I want aggressive speed from a static position, I'm going to push my weight way forward.

My arms and torso are always the same. The goal is to get my legs to do whatever they need to do without screwing with my upper body.

I thought this "flavor of the week" had long since faded away....

I did a quick search on Youtube and found a couple amusing videos demonstrating this "stance" from about 2 yds. The guy is ALL OVER the target, but at least he was shooting fairly slow.....:rolleyes:

It looks like a cross between a Weaverized Quell tension/alignment and a smallbore rifle skeletal posture...but then, in the 10min clip, I noticed that you're completely giving up contact between the gun and your support hand. Are we reverting to Tea-Cupping now?

...it actually looked like he was hitting OK...slow, but hitting... until he said he was shooting from 10 feet away

99% of my pistol shooting is Bullseye match shooting. So....one hand, unsupported.

Why do you spend a lot of time on shooting from the hip rather than a retention position?

AOK,

Speed is speed, not necessarily distance. Retention is only if they are close enough to grab your gun, as in grappling distance. You may have to move very fast at closer range to stop them from bringing their gun to bear.

Hip shooting can be done out to 5 or 7 yards if practice diligently (and you have buckets of ammo.)

Happily for my I have several ways to practice on the cheap.

I have a ‘laser’ Glock I made from a soft air gun I took the springs out, superglued a laser to the barrel, and snaked the pressure switch under the trigger (see photo.)

I also have a all metal replica of both a S&W snub and Glock 26 (I even superglued a Pearce base plate to make it feel just like my Glock 26.) These are used to practice drawing in the house.

And I have a AACK .22 unit for my Glock 26/27 for practice.

Plus I reload 9mm!

At the outdoor range I can put empty Gatoraid bottles out on the berm and hip shoot them (and all kinds of fun stuff.)

Indoor range they allow me to draw and hip shoot all the time (lucky me as lots of ranges don't allow 'nuthen.)

Deaf

Unstable ground (slippery mud, loose gravel, snow, ice), uneven ground (embankment, gully, hillside, steps), using one hand to hold onto something to maintain balance on unstable/uneven ground, reverse footing, knocked onto one's @ss, physical struggle on feet, ground struggle, sitting at a table/booth, sitting in a vehicle - "Weaver beats everything else out there........except for Modern Isosceles."

What is your point?

If there is a good reason to only use one hand, then use only one hand! Hopefully you'll have practiced a good one handed TECHNIQUE before you need it.

Some of the scenarios listed allow for two hands on the gun. In which case, the Modern Iso beats everything else out there, even while seated, moving or knocked on your butt.

But realize the OP asked about stances in general, not about specific techniques with limited applications.

RTFQ2

Deaf, just out of curiosity, how fast can you draw and hip shoot an 8 inch circle at 7 yards? Have you ever done it against a timer to see?

It's a weaver stance. It has less to do with firearms and more to do with martial arts as a whole. The stance I use is one I'm comfortable using for martial arts, stick fighting, boxing, and shooting. What I don't want to have to do is have a specific stance for shooting and then a different one for this martial art and then a different one for stick fighting, etc. Also, I don't wear a vest so that isn't a factor.

But realize the OP asked about stances in general, not about specific techniques with limited applications.

Stances ARE techniques.

Stances aren't necessarily static. If one acquires an isosceles style stance and then naturally rotates the waist and flexes the knees to engage a target to the left or right then the shooter's body dynamics causes him/her to move into a modified/reverse Weaver or Chapman technique.

I suggest learning the fine points of each, training frequently with each, and experimenting with various realistic conditions one might encounter to develop the ability to efficiently adapt to situations and perform effectively when a square range technique is inappropriate or cannot be achieved. New or novel situations increase reaction time. In those instances where textbook form cannot be achieved and a shooter must improvise then being able to quickly adapt and intuitively employ the strengths of the technique on which a field expedient stance is based provides the shooter a time competitive advantage and a performance advantage.

Stances ARE techniques.
Not to put too find a point of it, but in the interest of accuracy:

Stances are stances (a foundation to start from) and are by definition static...at least in the limited scope of the OP's question

Transitioning from one stance to another...or moving in general...is a technique (a process to accomplish a task)

Point shooting from the hip is a skill all its own and a very important one. Unfortunately, not one you can typically practice at most shooting ranges.

Agreed, and its also a good excuse to get a full sized Airsoft analog to your carry gun to practice with before you go to live fire.

Pre-Airsoft, I made primer powered wax bullets to practice my draw and point shooting with before I went to live fire. These are dirty and messy, Airsoft is a better option these days, at least with the realistic models.

Deaf, just out of curiosity, how fast can you draw and hip shoot an 8 inch circle at 7 yards? Have you ever done it against a timer to see?
NRA,

I'm an old IPSC and IDPA shooter. I do have my own timer (a PACT timer that doubles as a chrono.)

Now let's talk about how to time this...

What kind of hip shooting? Belt level with the gun just over the holster? Gun a bit in front of the buckle where your peripheral vision can see the weapon (kind of like 1/2 hip point shooting position but with the gun a bit closer to the shooter?) Or just where?

Concealed or unconcealed (that most definatly affects the time needed?) And what kind of concealment?

What kind of holster? Retention of some sort or open top? What postion will it be worn? Appendix, behind kidney, cross draw, or where?

What kind of gun? And yes that matters as for hip shooting as longer ones have an easier 'feel' to point the weapon with.

Including reaction time or not including reaction time (reaction time can vary widley as your state of mind may or may not stay focused?)

Now I can say, using an IDPA target and the '0' zone, IWB holster, at 4 yards I can go below one second, even with a concealment jacket, but not with just a t-shirt, and that includes reaction time and using my Glock 26 from in between the 1/4 and 1/2 hip positions.

But I'll also say I have never timed it at 7 yards but I doubt I can keep all my shots inside 8 inches at below 1 second speeds!

Deaf

Not to put too find a point of it, but in the interest of accuracy:

Stances are stances (a foundation to start from) and are by definition static...at least in the limited scope of the OP's question

Transitioning from one stance to another...or moving in general...is a technique (a process to accomplish a task)

Well put.

I have to agree with Shawn Dodson. When moving, using cover, & shooting from various shooting positions stances must change.

Use a solid grip not a death grip amd shoot from as many diferent positions as possible.

Don't get caught up in the hype of standing still and shooting in one stance. Learn the Weaver, Isosceles, Modern Isosceles, Bullseye or any stance. All have their advantages and drawbacks. Get your body used to shifting between any to do what is needed to get a good shot off.

I'm pretty much in the same camp as 9mmepiphany, except that I scooch my supporting thumb OVER my shooting hand's thumb for the grip. Stance would be the same.

The OP simply asked this:

What grip and stance do you use when shooting a handgun? And also, explain why you use it.

It did not ask about:

Unstable ground (slippery mud, loose gravel, snow, ice), uneven ground (embankment, gully, hillside, steps), using one hand to hold onto something to maintain balance on unstable/uneven ground, reverse footing, knocked onto one's @ss, physical struggle on feet, ground struggle, sitting at a table/booth, sitting in a vehicle

or:

When moving, using cover, & shooting from various shooting positions

It was a SIMPLE question !!

I still favor Modern Isosceles. It works better and is more versatile than any other ONE stance out there.


.

It works better and is more versatile than any other ONE stance out there.
Really, I consider it to be more specialized. Like I said before, you can shoot anything in the Weaver while the isosceles is not compatible with heavy recoiling handguns, single shot specialty handguns or single actions. Doesn't sound very "versatile" to me. Even Jerry Miculek doesn't use it in his revolver shooting.

What grip and stance do you use when shooting a handgun? And also, explain why you use it.
Weaver stance, because that's what I learned when I first started shooting and I find it both solid and natural. As far as grip... not sure if there is a formal name for it, but both thumbs forward on off-side (shot a auto once with off-side thumb crossed over. Got two nice "slide tracks" to remind me not to do that again). Off-side index finger under (not on) trigger guard.

I grip both revolvers and autos with my strong thumb pointed downward, my weak thumb on my strong thumb, and my weak index finger right on top of (in front, not above) my strong middle finger rather than on the trigger guard (coincidentally similar to Jerry Miculek's revolver grip). I suspect that my thumbs aren't long enough to take full advantage of the popular both-thumbs-forward grip, but whatever the reason the grip that I use now feels slightly more stable with my hands.

As for stance, I use all of the well known ones depending on the circumstances--preferably Modern Isosceles if possible because it is the strongest and most stable, then transitioning to Chapman, Weaver, and retention in that order. That's if I'm still standing out in the open, anyway--I'll get real low, hide behind cover/concealment, and stick my arm around it to shoot if that happens to be the best tactic for survival. And I'm not above bugging out by crab-walking away from the area if that's what it takes. :) I have to wonder about those who will only use one stance, ever. :scrutiny:

It was a SIMPLE question !! With a simple answer (multiple stances) and rationale (ability to quickly & efficiently adapt to spontaneous, uncontrolled situations) as a result of my own personal experiences with violent people.

I shoot my gun sideways, left handed on a pogo stick with an eye patch. Don't you?

I shoot my gun sideways, left handed on a pogo stick with an eye patch. Don't you?
As a HIGH SPEED LOW DRAG operator, I approve of this technique.

I shoot my gun sideways, left handed on a pogo stick with an eye patch. Don't you? A good shooting coach can help with getting the timing just right but, believe it or not, an eye patch over each eye doesn't seem to affect accuracy at all.

I shoot my gun sideways, left handed on a pogo stick with an eye patch. Don't you?

And it works equally well in a variety of situations, even when:

(there is) Unstable ground (slippery mud, loose gravel, snow, ice), uneven ground (embankment, gully, hillside, steps), using one hand to hold onto something to maintain balance on unstable/uneven ground, reverse footing, knocked onto one's @ss, physical struggle on feet, ground struggle, sitting at a table/booth, sitting in a vehicle

Well, ok, maybe not so much with the sitting in a vehicle part....but everything else!

:D :D :D

Well, ok, maybe not so much with the sitting in a vehicle part....but everything else! The city I patrolled alternated between having the highest violent crime rate in the state or having one of the highest violent crime rates. While working patrol and K9 I regularly encountered violent gangs and violent drug dealers under these kinds of conditions.

As a private citizen I can encounter these kinds of conditions during something as simple as being stopped at the side of the road because of a flat tire or other breakdown and a violent criminal(s) sees an opportunity to rob me or assault me and my wife.

As a private citizen I can encounter these kinds of conditions during something as simple as being stopped at the side of the road because of a flat tire or other breakdown and a violent criminal(s) sees an opportunity to rob me or assault me and my wife.

That's why you should keep your tactical pogo-stick handy at all times!

:D :D :D

That's why you should keep your tactical pogo-stick handy at all times!

If you also have an assault parrot and a high cap peg leg, your stance and grip will not matter at all, matey. AAAaaaaaaarg!

It begs the question - which tactical pogo stick is best? ;)

It begs the question - which tactical pogo stick is best?

HundK G84 Official GSG9 Tactical Pogo Rocket Stick.

http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/4/2010/04/340x_nazi-jetpack2.jpg

I primarily use and train with the Weaver Stance because it's most comfortable for me, however I've been adding Isosceles into the mix to broaden my horizons and my pallet of shooting styles. I also practice one-handed shooting, weak and strong hand, with a few different stances.

Mostly one hand bullseye. Modified Chapman on those rare occasions when I shoot two handed.

I also like the Weaver stance. The sole reason behind my gun ownership is tactical/SD. I'm not a superior shot like the competition guys, so I like the idea of being able to transition (like in martial arts) quickly in a Weaver stance, forward or backward or side-to-side. Plus, I think the body sillouhette is slimmer when you are in a Weaver stance, in the event the offender has a weapon and is shooting back - it's a smaller target than being squared up.

But, I'm sure someone like Todd Jarrett would put down the offender in his stance faster than I could even get my act together in a SD situation!

In the end, it's what I am comfortable with and how I always shoot, even when I was a kid with a BB gun.

Whichever stance it is that Chris and Travis teach over at Magpul. That's what I use. And it seems to be working pretty well so far.

Deaf[/QUOTE]
If it's a emergency where speed is the most important thing then I shoot from the hip one handed. I practice this alot with my laser Glock, .22 AACK unit on Glock 26, and full power ammo.



Gee Deaf--I sure hope you aren't turning into a closet point shooter in your old age....
Anyway, at the range when using two handed aimed fire my feet are MI but my arms are modified weaver.
With both elbows well bent.

I feel most comfortable with a "Weaver Stance," a "thumbs down" grip and try to take a sight picture whenever possible. But in a real gunfight, I don't think taking a perfect stance and grip is always possible, and I also believe you should train in "alternative sighting techniques" as well. (Get a copy of Jim Cirillo's Guns, Bullets and Gunfights and read this chapter.)

Interestingly, Jack Weaver himself actually had an article published in Handguns magazine, c. late 1990s. In it, he said (paraphrasing), "I don't understand what all the fuss is about. All I did was hold the gun in both hands and use the sights." :D

I tell ya this was kind of weird. For years I used the weaver (still do mostly) with a nice 2 hand grip on the gun. I was having a tough time grouping with any form of consistency.

I then went to a 1 hand stance (turning 90 degrees to the left and then holding gun out towards the target to my right). I was shooting with the weaver stance about 5-6 bulls-eye ring out of a 15 round mag. But using my one handed stance I was popping in 12-13 bulls-eye shots out or a 15 round mag. I tested it out with both slow shoot and rapid fire. It was SO SO SO SO SO much better with one handed grip.

It just shocked me because I was always taught the 2 handed grip and square off on the target both as a child growing up and during my years in the military all the way up to retirement.

Old dogs can learn new tricks it seems (well, middle aged dogs).

I always shot an isosceles in some form, despite the fact I just found out I did not even know how to spell it. Weaver just never worked for my frame. I fairly recently changed my grip from what was basically a revolver grip which is what I started out shooting to a thumbs forward. The one in video that keeps showing up. I'm not a better shot for it in term of accuracy yet. But I am understanding the mechanics of what I'm doing better and I am faster with follow ups. Some of that of course comes down to dry firing.

Gee Deaf--I sure hope you aren't turning into a closet point shooter in your old age....
Anyway, at the range when using two handed aimed fire my feet are MI but my arms are modified weaver.
With both elbows well bent.
Matt,

Hip shooting is so FUN I can't resist doing it every time I shoot. And that laser Glock I made, the one shown below, just reinforces the habits.

What is more Jeff Cooper himself said if you can't see the sights, bring the gun up just as if you could see the sights and fire, and that it not all that different from Applegate. Applegate just did the reverse and concentrated on looking at the target, Cooper concentrated on looking at the sights, but both memorized the grip and 'stance' well enough to work either way.

My ‘argument’ was for basic one could strip away everything but a form of retention fire and a form of sighted fire. Then, as Cooper said, ‘if you can’t see the sights, bring the gun up as if you could see them.’

Deaf
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=137461&d=1299036983

Yes Deaf, I must admit that you have been consistent over the years.
You had me worried there a bit but now I feel much better.
Thanks for the peace of mind.