Which is the worst "gun" state now?


December 26, 2002, 09:55 PM
PRK and PRNJ seem to be on the top of my list... For the claim of armpit of America... It's an even draw with I think the PRK slightly ahead..

Your comments?

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December 26, 2002, 09:57 PM
By virtue of requiring a signed permission slip from your local gendarmerie in order to buy a friggin' BB gun, I'd give the edge to the Garba... er, Garden State.

December 26, 2002, 10:21 PM
New Jersey-my home state- but I read some strange things about CA also. Our local PD has to issue a permit to purchase each handgun (usually a couple of days, depends on the town-I've heard some take longer),$3.00, valid for 90 days but can be renewed for another 90 days if you don't use it right away.
You're right, Tamara, you need a firearm purchaser I.D. card to buy a BB gun, shotgun, or rifle in NJ.

December 26, 2002, 10:31 PM
Isn't the home of old Michael (tank-driver) Dukakas (aka Mass.) pretty bad? Seems I recall they could arrest you for possession of a single cartridge, even without a gun to shoot it in.

Al in Md
December 26, 2002, 10:59 PM
Maryland is getting bad. Funny thing they are O.K. with long guns but handguns are another matter. The "Built into the gun lock law" (handguns only) goes into effect on 1/1/03. Al in Md.

December 26, 2002, 11:33 PM
Which is the worst "gun" state now?

# 1 . New Jersey

December 27, 2002, 12:34 AM

No Doubt about it.

Jim March
December 27, 2002, 12:39 AM
I'd put New Jersey as worst, followed by Illinois, Mass, New York, Hawaii, Rhode Island, and then finally California.

California has "shall-issue gun ownership" versus ownership permits. So does Illinois, but the Chicago ban puts them past Calif in the sucky dept.

December 27, 2002, 12:46 AM
I would say that the PRK and the PRNJ are doing their best to out-do the other.

December 27, 2002, 02:00 AM
Let's not forget, Chicago is trying to put IL on the map rather quickly as well.

I'm just wondering if the new PRK laws put it a step above PRNJ.

If DC were a state, where would it rank??

December 27, 2002, 08:25 AM
Maybe I should remove the NJ from my location. :) With 13 handguns, 3 rifles, and 1 shotgun, I would probably be called a terrorist waiting to happen here! :mad:

December 27, 2002, 09:06 AM
As much as dislike California's new and and ever more stringent gun legislation, I would have to vote for New Jersey.

Out here it's more harrassment, but at least we don't need a note from Mommy making it okay to take possession. I'm sure that that will be in the 2004 gun legislation :rolleyes: The certified guns list is a real pain, but it doesn't apply to used guns. It only applies to new guns and acts like a cover charge on the manufacturers. Assault rifles are very controlled, but other long-guns (shotguns and bolt action rifles) are hardly tracked.

It has less to do with safety than money for the state's coffers. Watch for more of that; California is in a big hurt for money right now with what Gray Davis has done and will continue to do WRT spending. He needs cash from wherever he can get it.

Chris Rhines
December 27, 2002, 10:18 AM
Toss-up between Hawaii and New Jersey, with California, Illinois, and Maryland fighting it out for the top five.

- Chris

December 27, 2002, 10:21 AM

Nathaniel Firethorn
December 27, 2002, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by twoblink
If DC were a state, where would it rank?? Above either PRNJ or PRK, I'd think. Don't they have a policy of no handgun ownership by commoners?

- pdmoderator

December 27, 2002, 01:48 PM
All this makes me glad that I live in New Mexico. It's too bad the politicians have screwed up California so bad. It is really a fun state to visit and somehow there's lots of gun people there.

Matt N
December 27, 2002, 02:07 PM
New Jersey for now, but Illinois is definitely going to try to catch up next year when the new Governor (notoriuosly anti gun) and new State's Attorney (also notoriously anti gun) team up. Watch for the fireworks in January. The Machine is already getting things ready.

December 27, 2002, 02:08 PM
DC - no handguns at all unless registered before 1976.

December 27, 2002, 02:43 PM
I think Illinois:mad: is going to out right "SUCK" now!

When I retire.....Me and my Motor home are heading to U.T:D

December 27, 2002, 03:52 PM
Despite it's reputation (and many of my own posts complaining about it) I don't think California falls into the worst state category. We actually (AFAIK) only have two outright, pain in the butt bans -- one on "assault weapons" and one on mags holding >10 rounds (preban or not, though if you had them before the ban, you're ok). One could of course argue (and I would tend to agree) that any handguns not passing the "safety tests" are technically nothing more than banned weapons.

Everything else is, as pointed out earlier, pretty much harassment. There are a lot of things we can still do, and a lot of arms we can still own, but we have to jump through more hoops than a circus lion to get them. I can still shoot my eye out with a Red Ryder without having to fill out paperwork first.:p

I'm sure our lame duck governor will do his best to surpass New Jersey in asinine laws in the next 4 years though.:mad:

December 27, 2002, 04:04 PM
Illannoy has been one of the worst for a looooong time now. I remember getting a FOID back in '80-81 or thereabouts.

Get out while you still can; best thing I ever did was leave that abysmal state behind me.

December 27, 2002, 04:26 PM
You know you guys are always complaining about NJ and PRK, you oughta try living up here in Alaska, talk about aggravation...

Forget about the fact that its legal to carry openly anywhere and legal to concealed anywhere without a license if engaged in an out door activity, or legal to carry in your car anytime, or legal to own or carry any Federally licensed class 3 weapon.....

No! They make us pay$90 for a 5 year "shall issue" CCW that you only need if you want to carry concealed in city limits... (if you wanna call places like Juneau, Wasilla and Fairbanks "cities" sorry guys)! Thieves!

And they only let you shoot machine guns on the State operated rifle range if you make an appointment first! Shame!

Next thing you know they will drop the 5 a day caribou limit for residents! The fascists!

Im moving to someplace free :)

December 27, 2002, 04:45 PM
I had to get an FOID card in 1971, and the sad thing was all I was buying was a Sheridan Blue Streak! That's right, for a blasted pellet rifle I needed an FOID in 1971.
I lived in Chicago then, and it's gone downhill even more since then.
There's a huge gunstore outside Chicago, called Megasports. They won't sell you an AR15 if you live in Cook county/Chicago. They also won't sell you a handgun if you live in Chicago, Melrose Park, or Oak Park. All of these places have effectively outlawed handguns.
Most of the rest of the state is okay, no "assault" weapon bans, no standard capacity mag bans, just in and around Chicago. Although there is absolutely zero chance of getting a CCW in Illinois...

December 27, 2002, 07:39 PM
Im in Minnesota. Pretty middle of the road...

Im not in law enforcment and would like to be able to carry. MN requires you to present 'unique' cirumstance(s) and to have a training certificate. The certificfate is no problem. Still searching for the golden egg though. A unique circomstance I can present as a 'normal' citizen that would allow me a carry permit.

Any ideas?


December 27, 2002, 10:33 PM
I recently moved from MD to MT, gun-control was a primary consideration. Democrats were another primary reason, especially after they submitted a bill in the state house to impose a 500% sales tax on ammunition, which shockingly failed to pass noting their previous anti-gun legislation record.
I would suggest that California, Massachusetts, New Jersey and Maryland to be THE most gun unfriendly states in the union.

Politically Incorrect
December 27, 2002, 10:41 PM
CANADA is the worst state now...

..you mean Canada is its own country?


Then I'll say California.

December 28, 2002, 01:26 AM
New Jersey is the worst!

December 28, 2002, 01:48 AM
Based on laws alone, PRNJ may be the worst. However, despite what you may hear, the level of annoyence is kinda low. Dont get me wrong, this state stinks. However, depending on your interests, once you get your FID it is kinda mellow. Yes you need a permit for each handgun, but after the first it gets kinda quick and easy. At this point my local PD drops them off in my mailbox in about 3 days. It does however suck if you want an evil weapon (like a FAL or AK or CETME or ... )

Wait. What am I saying? It does stink here. I guess it only hurts less because this is the only state I've lived in.:mad:


December 28, 2002, 01:51 AM
I was gonna say either CA or NJ, unless you wanted to count DC in that list.

I can assure you, however, it is *not* oregon. shall-issue CCW with no carry restrictions (ie: only restricted where federally prohibited). class-3 friendly. no silly AW-ban laws. no registrations. no permits. just NICS and ATF stuff

December 28, 2002, 03:02 AM
CA is probably the best of the worst.

The biggest areas of pain are AW bans, mag limits and the stupid handgun approval list. However, if you are resourceful, you can get about any handgun you want and many rural areas are virtually shall issue for CCW.

Gun Shows are under attack and many urban areas no longer have them.

However, here in Sacramento, there are at least 2 excellent (one is particularly awsome) out door ranges, the city operates an indoor range and a guy I know is building a very nice indoor range in the south of town.

The bullet tax is looming on the horizon and possibly some onerous ballistic finger printing monstrosity. Also, they are going to start busting people who have guns but are legally disqualified from ownership. That could get interesting.

Also and this may be suprising to many - I think self defense shootings are treated with a suprising amount of neutrality - that is to say, in most jurisdictions, if you cap someone in a clean shoot, it is rare that they will go after you to demonize guns or to send a message about vigilantism. I have even seen several cases where people were CCWing without a permit and they had to use it and charges were not filed.

As for Alaska, it may well be the last free state. Alaska is unforgiving and dangerous - and incredibly beautiful. Blissninnies need not apply. In a few weeks, I will be 15 years departed and I still miss it.

December 28, 2002, 09:11 AM
Gotta be Maryland:

No more new handgun sales unless it has a "personalized" internal locking device (interpretation still being debated, but as I understand, no guns currently manufactured pass muster)

Firearms must be on police-approved list

Must take a class prior to purchase

All, including private, handgun sales must go through State Police, with 7 day waiting period

No carry whatsoever, except unloaded from home to range

"May issue" CCW, peasants need not apply

Atty Gen'l who explicitly stated that guns do not belong in the hands of the people

Home of Montgomery County (trumps all?!)

etc., etc.

December 30, 2002, 03:00 PM
For handguns MD easily.

With the shell casing law (only NY also has it) many guns became illegal (new guns only). For a while guns w/out the casing could be fired at a state police lab so all were available but they stopped that "loophole".

Now we are a couple days away from the built-in lock law. With this law any gun that doesn't have a built-in lock (as I understand the regs are still unclear what that includes so what may be legal when the law 1st goes into effect may become illegal if the law is "re-interpreted" later) that was made after Jan 1, 2003 is illegal to sell here. That makes almost everything illegal (only S&W and Taurus offer the locks across their entire line, HK offers them as an option I think, Springfield will have them on their 1911s, some others may have them now or develop them in the future but...). Used guns look like they'll be ok (though I guess the law can always be re-interpreted by our AG who is on record against private ownership and has stated that he will put the most restrictive interpretation on any gun law he can which brings us to...).

There is a federal law making gun ownership illegal for anyone convicted of a misdomeanor who spent a year in jail, at least that is the intent. The way it is interpreted here (and only here), if you were convicted of a misdomeanor anytime in your life (even a bar fight 20 years ago) that COULD have resulted in a 1yr jail term or longer (almost everything provides that as a possibility) you cannot legally own guns and guns are being confiscated (see the archives at TFL and you'll find threads about it).

There is a 7 day waiting period and state police check. They keep the paperwork but there isn't official registration here:rolleyes: .

CCW is virutally impossible.

One must watch a safety video to get a card that states you are allowed to buy guns.

One purchase every 30 days is the limit, unless you get a collector's license.

Private sales are regulated, must go w/ purchaser and gun to state police barracks for proper fees to be paid and background check to be started.

On the bright side no license is needed, no real safety course is required (yet) and there is no official registration (though the way the DC sniper investigation was handled should dispel the myth that there isn't real registration).

Long guns aren't bad here however (except "assult rifles" like AKs and ARs, which face the same restrictions as handguns). No waiting period, only the federal "instant" check, no limit on number in a month, no built-in lock law (I think) or shell casing law (yet), class III is legal, etc.

So for long guns I guess CA (which doesn't get it for me overall due to better handgun laws and possible CCW in some counties) and NJ (better handgun laws) are worse.

Which is worse overall, NJ, CA or MD, don't know.

December 30, 2002, 03:13 PM
well....considering where I live, it would have to be bias, but I believe the worst "gun state" right now would be NJ.

I would have said PRK, but two things put NJ on top:

1. The just signed "we don't exist yet" handgun law, in addition to the spate of legislation being introduced for coming sessions.
2. The legal protections. For example, one wouldn't be able to do a Jim March style expose of the CCW process here. The open records law doesn't cover it, as pervious court cases have ruled that any CCW related documents are considering restricted and confidential. Also, despite the fact that the law clearly states a FID MUST be issued within 30 days if no info arrives to prevent issuance, the police routinely take anwhere from 60-180 days or more.....court rulings have held that perfectly legal.

Things are going much further downhill, especially with our governor (Your "new best friend") striving to set new lows in both corruption and utter stupidity....

December 30, 2002, 03:20 PM
These aren't states! These are people! %$#@## Laws are passed by people elected to represent the people. In this case, it would seem that the legislators feel compelled to think for the people in the aforementioned states. On another thread, the question was asked about "where do rights come from?" and I don't rightly know. But I do know how they go away.

December 30, 2002, 03:45 PM

1. No concealed carry of any kind

2. No class 3 of any kind

3. No new shooting ranges in the last ten plus years

4. Illinois "Safe Neighborhoods" act a license to stop, search and convict as a felony any gun owner with a weapon in their car that can't prvoe they are on the way to or from a shooting range or event.

5. A rabidly anti-gun Democratic Governor and States Attorney coming in as of January 13th.

6. A Liberal, Democratically controlled legislature with Daley pulling the strings

7. A Firearm Owners ID card, issued by the state, required to purchase any guns or ammunition (currently $5 for 3 years, but our new governor has already propsoed making it $500 for one year)

And, it's just gonna get uglier as the next few years pass by.

The worst part is our current Republican party types don't think there's anything wrong with the way they lost every office in the state while Conservatives just about everywhere else in the country won big.

I'm stocking up on ammo and picking up a few extra bits and pieces I may not be able to get after they start putting things in place.

Just my opinion.

Don P.

December 31, 2002, 12:33 AM
This is a really interesting thread. I think those of us that live in CA have probably painted the picture a little darker than it really is. We cannot buy assault weapons, period. And "new" high capacity mags are out. Other than that, we can buy pretty much anything on the market. I know I've never had a problem buying anything I've wanted be it a bolt action rifle, shotgun, pistol, or revolver, and have never yet had to seek anyone's permission. Pay the DROS fee, the "safety" cert fee (old card was lifetime, new one is apparently for 5 years), and pick it up in ten days.

Course if I were into assault weapons I'd be seriously bent.

I'm a lot more concerned about what the future may bring than where we are right now.

Those of you who live in states where there aren't any restrictions should be darn thankful.

December 31, 2002, 10:47 AM
All rifles and shotguns including air and bp guns require a FID to purchace. while this is good for life currently you must have your correct address on the card - If you move you must get a new card. they take this opertinituty to investgate you again new card can in some locations take as long to get as origional card (4-6 months average some places as long as 1 year)
Handguns of any type(this includes airpistols and BP guns as well but not surprisingly not paintball guns) require a permit to purchace and registration to buy. These are good for only 90 days and can be renewed ONLY AT THE DESCRATION OF THE ISSUING AUTHORITY - other wise you have to go through the whole process again. Requirment of fingerprinting if you have not had a permit issued in 1 year but some locals require it for every permit. Permits can take as long as six months or six days. each and every local police dept can (and often does) add its own requirments above anf beyond state law. (such as fingerprinting for every permit of coming down to the station only on mon wed and fri for permits of other nonsence that they can come up with.
You can be turned down for either a permit of FId by the chief of police if he "feels issuing you one is not in the best intrests of the community" this is COMPLETELY UP TO HIM AND HE HAS ABSOULUTE CONTROL IN THIS MATTER. If you disagree you have to take him to court at your expence!
after all this you still have to pony on up to the gunshop and pay an additional $15 for the NCIC when you actually purchace the gun - this after a fingerpring check by the fbi to get the permit in the first place - the reasoning behind this? I was told by the issuing officer who gave me my permit "you could commit a crime between the time we give you the permit and you buy the gun"
Hollowpoints are legal to own and shoot but other wise restrited - There were even some arrests a few years ago for possision of dimpled shotgun slugs(winchester I think) they tried to say they were hollowpoints and thus illegal to have in your possision i the field. (if you have one of the rare carry permit you have to carry solids unless you are LEO - possision of expanding bullets even if you have no firearm with you is a crime(unless under specific expections in the law - but don't expect your local leo to know these he will in most cases arrest you anyway and YOU will have to prove in court you were in the right).
In Nj as a gun owner you are guilty until proven innocent. we have an assult weapons ban here which even the leo's don't understand but what thew heck arrest everybody and let the courts sourt it out.
One man was arrested for possision of a mini 14 and 10/22 rifles as assult rifles even through both were SPECIFICLLY LISTED IN THE BAN AS LEGAL TO OWN - THEY USED THIS AS A REASON TO CONFISCATE HIS ENTIRE COLLECTION. He got it back eventually (and many thousands of dollars in legal fee's later in condition that shall we say was not origional)
a second man had his collection conficated becouse he owned a winchester model 60 22 rifle - YES virginia in NJ this is an assult rifle! How did they find it you ask? well he and his wife had a argument and a neibor called the police. when asked if he had firearms in the home he replied yes and they conficated the entire collection( a great many guns) when the model 60 was found he was charged with possisionof an assult weapon (a felony) this took many years and thousands of dollars to correct in his favor.
When it comes to firearms ownership Nj is the cesspitt of the country worse than any I have seen mentioned yet.
I escaped I hope you fellows do as well.

December 31, 2002, 01:33 PM
Dang, this thread opened my eyes! I knew California was bad but I didn't realize there were so many other places in the U.S. where the government is outlawing guns and wiping their butts with the constitution.

I was mad when I found out you had to pay a $200 tax and get the signature from the local Sheriff just to purchase a full-auto weapon. I guess I should be happy that I can still buy assault rifles the same as any regular hunting rifle and I don't have to wait on handguns. I won't be leaving Utah for awhile and will definitely let the legislators hear my opinion if anything like what's mentioned above starts to happen here!

January 3, 2003, 03:01 AM
Oh yes, I remember hearing about the ambiguity in the assult weapon law in NJ. The case though wasn't a Winchester Model 60 but a Marlin Model 60 (you know, the most commonly owned rifle, and possibly gun, in the country). I think it had something to do with it being a semi-auto and holding x amount of rounds.

I remember reading that and deciding that I'd never live in NJ.

Overall, NJ may be worse than MD, and many states are worse for long guns (we're not bad for long guns generally), however strictly for handguns I think we are still the worst.

Yes many states (well a few) have stronger restrictions on owners. Registration, real safety courses before you can buy, needing a permit to buy, needing a license to own, etc. However, you can eventually buy a new gun. Well, with the new MD law only six gun makers have guns that can be sold here (and not necessarily all their models), here is the list: Approved Integrated Locking Devices (from the MSP website) (http://www.inform.umd.edu/UMS+State/MD_Resources/MDSP/gunsafetydevice.html) .

Really, I guess some of how I feel about this is only anger over this new law that now effects me and keeps me from being able to buy most of the new handguns I'd otherwise want to buy. In reality it is probably quite close between NJ and MD (maybe IL too, though I'm not sure). I don't include CA, MA and NY, parts of which are as bad or worse than NJ and MD, because in some parts of those states you can actually get a CCW and the powers that be are relatively pro-gun (though some state laws may not be and some are worse than some MD laws and maybe some NJ laws).

January 3, 2003, 04:13 AM
Here's one many never considered or even knew. When you think of cheese or dairy you often think of WI. When you think of CCW permits you will never think of WI as they have none, zero, zip. WI does not have any carry period. WI does not even recognize Police Officers from other states. If a police officer from a town just on the other side of the border wanted to do an interview of a suspect just inside WI's border, there's no provision to allow him to carry. Technically if a LEO from across the border has a high speed pursuit enter WI he's not covered either. There is no off-duty carry for WI LEO's either. Pretty shocking info from the dairy land, eh?

January 3, 2003, 05:50 AM
Gotta agree with the majority.

New Jersey.

Then maybe Hawaii, Masachusetts, New York.

Ick. California's not looking so bad. :rolleyes:

January 3, 2003, 03:16 PM
chaim, F=ma, and other MD residents:

Has anyone organized a trigger lock mail-in protest to our clueless representatives who passed the Gun Safety Act, which requires these integrated trigger locks and external trigger locks for sales of pre- 1/1/2003 manufacture handguns? I'd like to mail the offending item to those responsible, to show that even if I have to buy the thing, I won't be shackled with it (I do use other methods to prevent theft, etc.). Any thoughts?

January 3, 2003, 03:43 PM
MD isn't in the top five, as it has no registration. I'd say that NJ,IL and other states with de-facto registration are the worst, followed by states with partial registration (ie NY state requires registration of pistols only). Follow that with states that don't allow any concealed carry, then those that ban classes of weapons or having extensive waiting periods.

January 5, 2003, 12:09 AM
Has anyone organized a trigger lock mail-in protest to our clueless representatives who passed the Gun Safety ActI haven't heard of such a thing but if someone organized it I'd be happy to mail in about a dozen or so of the things.

January 5, 2003, 12:28 AM
NJ is definitely the worst! But the amazing thing is that all you have to do is CROSS THE DELAWARE to come into the land of the free in PENNSYLVANIA. It's just a bridge, guys. Now, it is quite true that you have to pay to cross the bridges into PA, but not to go into NJ, but after all, how could they have set it up any other way? Who would pay to leave PA and enter NJ? ITS JUST A COUPLE OF DOLLARS TO COME OVER TO THE LIGHT, GUYS!:neener:

Kahr carrier
January 5, 2003, 06:11 AM
My Vote My Damn state PRK Thank You NOT-Gray Davis,Diane Feinstein,Don Perata and Barbara Boxer ,they SUCK.:cuss: :fire: :banghead:

January 5, 2003, 08:59 AM
The People's Republic of Massachusetts!:cuss: :banghead: :fire:

January 5, 2003, 09:38 AM
I don't know - the domestic violence laws around here keep my wife from beating me.

January 5, 2003, 02:45 PM
Perhaps we should have the reverse thread, Which states are most Pro-firearms?

January 5, 2003, 04:27 PM
I say Jersey is worse. Our weather is better and there are more days we can play outside.

January 6, 2003, 09:43 AM
NJ is definitely the worst! But the amazing thing is that all you have to do is CROSS THE DELAWARE to come into the land of the free in PENNSYLVANIA. It's just a bridge, guys.

I'm sure most people would respond with things like 'uprooting family', 'not wanting to leave job', etc.....

Me....I like the fact that stocking up on ammo is a ten minute drive to the Ammoman, and another 15 minutes gets me to a 200 yard range on a military base that costs 3 dollars an hour to shoot whatever you want. With that said, though....I'm still looking to leave, so long as I can find a place where I can get signoff on Class 3 and don't have to increase my commute too much...

January 6, 2003, 10:46 PM
This thread really puts things in perspective for me. I know NY is bad, but clearly it gets worse.


January 6, 2003, 10:50 PM
Hey, I'm a ten minute drive to Ammoman. You're not that angry guy who lives on the corner, are you? I was really hoping that he didn't own any guns.

January 7, 2003, 08:47 AM
Hey, I'm a ten minute drive to Ammoman. You're not that angry guy who lives on the corner, are you? I was really hoping that he didn't own any guns.

Don't worry.....it's not me :D

I have the fortune of being a wage slave for Lockheed Martin, over in the Moorestown/Mt. Laurel area, but I live down in Mercer County. It's starting to become a habit...hit Ammoman after work, then drop by Ft. Dix on the way home. Great stress relief after a day at the office.

It's also what's killing me about trying to get out. I like the area, and I like my job (pays good, job security is VERY good), so I'd like to keep it. Which means finding a place where I can pick up easy the Burlington-Bristol Bridge, or the Pennsy Turnpike-NJ Turnpike.....

February 12, 2004, 01:15 PM
i will not be moving to prk or prnj any time soone but GA is the state ccw 50 five years and just go into the gun store and buy what you want with background ck

February 12, 2004, 01:39 PM
MA is pretty bad, but it's not that bad. We have CCW, a lot of people in rural areas can get them with no questions asked, no mandatory waiting periods, you can walk into a store and buy a handgun and walk out with it, we can carry in our state parks, and we don't have to notify the police if we are carrying when we are stopped (sometimes a good idea tho).

On the other hand, it sometimes is a real PITA to get a CCW Class A, the past history requirements are too stringent, and if you live inside of 128, you are pretty much screwed, carry-wise, and doubly so if you live in Boston. Plus, most handguns are illegal to sell here, but there is an okay selection of S&W, Sig, Walther, and things.

I'd say it is around the 5th worst state or so.

Baron Holbach4
February 12, 2004, 01:47 PM
Chris Rhines wrote:

"Toss-up between Hawaii and New Jersey, with California, Illinois, and Maryland fighting it out for the top five."

Exactly my sentiments.


February 12, 2004, 06:21 PM
It seems like NYC would top the list. What say you?

February 12, 2004, 07:50 PM
The worst gun state? This is a question that I asked myself once, so I decided to study it using information gleaned from the NRA-ILA web site. That site has summaries of the gun laws of all the states.

I made up a scoring system. Each state would start with a score of 100 and have points deducted from its score depending on which detractors applied:

firearm purchase permit required 5 points
firearm registration 10 points
owner's permit required 5 points
concealed carry permit required 2 points
waiting period 1/2 point per day
youth possession illegal 2 points
"safety device" required 1 point
purchase rate limit 1 point
magazine ban 5 points
"unapproved" handgun ban 15 points
airguns considered firearms 5 points
AW or other type ban 15 points
ballistic fingerprinting 5 points
ammo registration 10 points

Some clarification: "youth possession" means a 15 year old hunting alone with a 22 rifle or a shotgun. "Safety device" means a trigger lock, etc.

In some cases bonus points were awarded:

concealed carry legal 2 points
shall-issue law 5 points
2nd amendment-like provision in state constitution 1 point

The 10 worst states, in order (worst at top)

Massachusetts 25 points
Hawaii 25 points
Illinois 29.5 points
New Jersey 32 points
California 33 points
New York 36 points
Ohio 44 points
Maryland 44.5 points
Connecticut 58 points
Kansas 64 points

At the other end of the scale, some states got the highest score possible (108) with no detractors and all the bonus points: Tennessee, Texas, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Georgia, Kentucky, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Oregon, Utah, West Virginia, and Wyoming.

This study is, of course, quite subjective on my part, so I would encourage anyone interested to check it out for themselves. Also, this was done a year or so ago, so things may have changed since then.


February 12, 2004, 08:51 PM
I get a score of 47 for MA.

permit -5
registration -10 (well, the sale is registered, not the gun really, not sure how this is taken)
permit again -5
CCW required -2
youth -2
safety device -1
unapproved ban -15
ccw legal +2


February 12, 2004, 09:33 PM
"I get a score of 47 for MA."

I have in my notes that in Massachusetts airguns are considered firearms and that there is a ban on AW or some other type firearm. Anyway, I don't want to argue about it. I merely posted because I thought people might be interested. These scores are based on my subjective reading of (sometimes incomplete or confusing) information posted on the NRA-ILA web site.


February 13, 2004, 05:07 AM
How about the worst city?

I think Washington DC takes the cake on that one; and I don't think NYC is even close to DC..

Unless I'm mistaken, but isn't DC basically Warsaw?:barf:

February 13, 2004, 06:19 AM
If you add bonus points for full-auto being legal, how does that affect the standings at the top?

February 13, 2004, 09:21 AM
"If you add bonus points for full-auto being legal, how does that affect the standings at the top?"

Don't know--good question. I suppose it would depend on how many bonus points you assigned full-auto, but it might not change things as much as you'd imagine. For example, it turns out that most states, good and bad, have a statement in their constitutions similar to the US constitution's second amendment. For that reason I didn't give it much consideration. It doesn't hurt, but it also doesn't seem to help much, either.

California, naturally, does not have such a provision. But if you gave it 5, 10, whatever additional points for legal full auto, it still would appear to be a gun law Hell hole. Full-auto might be a good way to identify the best of the best, but as a California resident and native, I can say that if you don't live in one of the five or ten worst states, you should count your blessings.


February 13, 2004, 11:06 AM
"Unless I'm mistaken, but isn't DC basically Warsaw?"

If you take the concern the authorities have for the citizens into account, more along the lines of Auschweitz, but with better food.:fire:

February 13, 2004, 04:51 PM
The worst is and always will be Massachusetts -- followed by New York, New Jersey, Maryland, California, and Conn.

February 13, 2004, 05:03 PM
Today? Fabruary 13, 2004?

Wisconsin -- because John "A+ Rating from VPC" Kerry and Wesley "If you want a gun, join the Army" Clark are both there campaigning.

February 13, 2004, 06:22 PM
.Wesley,"if you want a gun,join the Army"Clark

I don't want to defend Wesley Clark,but he did not say that.
He said something along the lines of,"if you like assault weapons,you should join the Army,we have them".

February 14, 2004, 02:07 AM
I don't want to defend Wesley Clark,but he did not say that. He said something along the lines of,"if you like assault weapons,you should join the Army,we have them".

He said:

"I have got 20 some odd guns in the house. I like to hunt. I have grown up with guns all my life, but people who like assault weapons should join the United States Army, we have them."

What, exactly, is an "assault weapon"?

February 14, 2004, 04:53 AM
CA isn't great, but it's not horrible either. I could name 5 states worse off.

We have three basic problems as I see it:

1) A stupid-restrictive AW ban much more restrictive than the federal ban. There are ways around it, but not many. There are no 'pre-ban' rifles available, you are not allowed to sell or inherit one after 1/1/2000. Ever. They go with you to your grave.

You have to pull the pistol-grip off a Barrett M82A1, but you can have one. (at least, for now.)

2) May-issue CCW corrupt to a tee. Basically, the rich and influental get permits, while joe-citizen who says "I just want to protect my family" dosen't.

3) State permit for Full-Auto. In theroey it's May-Issue. I want to move to Theroey, CA. I will see if I can get one anyway. Oddly enough, exempt from the AW ban, as that only covers 'semi-autos'. Hrmph.

4) We have a drop-test for handguns. Seems like a good idea, but isn't. All it really does is limit some good guns that aren't economically viable to test, but otherwise would. Basically it's a revenue generator. It has cost S&W alone $0.25mil or more.

10-day wait on all firearms, but long guns and shot guns are not any more controled than that. If you pass NICS, wait 10 days, you'll have it.

February 14, 2004, 06:02 PM
I agree with the others: CA and NJ top the list as states working to abolish the 2nd amendment.

Some states I'd avoid residency if I have the choice:

-California -10+ round magazine ban, handgun ban (in a round-about-way), semi-auto rifle ban (who'd want a self-loading rifle w/o a pistol grip?)

-Maryland -15 round maximum on any magazine

-Massachussets -need a Class A license to use 10+ round mags

-New Jersey -15 round maximum in any magazine

-Hawaii - 15+? round magazine ban

-Washington - "machinegun" parts ban

-D.C. - Illegal to possess ay handgun

February 14, 2004, 06:25 PM
My scoring of NJ: 24

firearm purchase permit required 5 points: FID, Pistol Purchase Permit
firearm registration 10 points: De-facto
owner's permit required 5 points: FID
concealed carry permit required 2 points: Yes
waiting period 1/2 point per day: None officially, PPP's take months
youth possession illegal 2 points: Yes
"safety device" required 1 point: Yes: must leave store with lock
purchase rate limit 1 point: limited by purchase permit
magazine ban 5 points: yep, 15 rounds
"unapproved" handgun ban 15 points: Future Smartguns
airguns considered firearms 5 points: yep
AW or other type ban 15 points: yep
ballistic fingerprinting 5 points: No, but soon
ammo registration 10 points: yep

February 14, 2004, 06:28 PM
We have three basic problems as I see it:

That looked alot like 5 problems to me :)

And a ten day wait is ridiculous!

February 14, 2004, 06:37 PM
I think its Mass. There are some handguns you are unable to buy unless you are in law inforcement. The Atty Gen has a law in effect that the firearm must meet certain safety guidelines. Like the glock 17 is only safe if you are in law enforcement. I know afew gun dealers who went out of bussiness as the only gun they could sell for awhile was the S&W.

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