[TH3180]

:banghead::banghead::banghead:

First I will give you the details. I am only reloading 9mm. I am shooting them out of a G17. I am using winchester primers, a few different powders and Montana Gold Bullets 115g and 147g. I am shooting my test loads at an indoor range, 7 yards off of a sandbag rest. Five shot groups.
What size groups should I be looking for? Are we talking sub-five inches, sub-one inch or somewhere in-between. I shot some AA#7 pushing a 147g last week and I got a 1.841" group. I shot the same load today and my group was 2.339". I'm working up these loads and I am getting groups with in a half of an inch of each other at different powder weights. Please point me in the right direction here. I you need more details please let me know.
Thanks

[bds]

With G17/G22 at 7 yards, you should be getting 1 inch shot groups and 2 inch shot groups at 10 yards.

Most of my W231/HP38 9mm/40S&W/45ACP loads produce similar shot groups off hand using various jacketed, plated and MBC lead bullets.

If you want a reference load to compare, try 115 gr MG FMJ with 4.5-4.7 gr W231/HP38.

[TH3180]

With G17/G22 at 7 yards, you should be getting 1 inch shot groups and 2 inch shot groups at 10 yards.

Most of my W231/HP38 9mm/40S&W/45ACP loads produce similar shot groups off hand using various jacketed, plated and MBC lead bullets.

If you want a reference load to compare, try 115 gr MG FMJ with 4.5-4.7 gr W231/HP38.
I don't have my numbers in front of me so I will use yours.
4.4g 1.365" group
4.5g 2.148" group
4.6g 1.456" group
What charge would you use or are they close enough not to matter? That is the type of thing I'm running into.:banghead: Am I being to critical about all of this?

[mbruce]

I don't have my numbers in front of me so I will use yours.
4.4g 1.365" group
4.5g 2.148" group
4.6g 1.456" group
What charge would you use or are they close enough not to matter? That is the type of thing I'm running into.:banghead: Am I being to critical about all of this?
Use what is the best compromise in accuracy and perceived recoil...

for example.. 4.3 of 231 is not as accurate as 4.5 for my gun... but 4.3 is accurate enough and i like the cush recoil...

based on your numbers the 4.3 is a clear winner...less powder, lighter recoil, tighter groups...that load wins the stuffed animal at the star shootout with the crooked barrel air guns...

[TH3180]

So it's not just about the numbers then. I have to factor in things like recoil. I will say I was shooting some blue dot today the groups were up in the high 2" but the recoil was little and the brass dropped right at my feet.

[Walkalong]

One group means nothing. If the results continue to repeat themselves, then you have something.

[TH3180]

One group means nothing. If the results continue to repeat themselves, then you have something.
How many sets of groups per weight do you shot when working up a load?

[k4swb]

indoor range, 7 yards off of a sandbag rest. Five shot groups
I would be extremely dissapointed in myself and everything involved if I shot a gun off a rest at 21' and all the bullet holes were not touching in a nice small group.

I'm not saying anyone else should be, but I sure would.

[TH3180]

I would be extremely dissapointed in myself and everything involved if I shot a gun off a rest at 21' and all the bullet holes were not touching in a nice small group.

I'm not saying anyone else should be, but I sure would.
I'm working off the data in the books, what the heck am I doing wrong? I'm close to all five rounds touching but I'm not there.

[mbruce]

I would be extremely dissapointed in myself and everything involved if I shot a gun off a rest at 21' and all the bullet holes were not touching in a nice small group.

I'm not saying anyone else should be, but I sure would.


Or in other words....

Ask yourself why are you reloading, what is accurate enough, and what are your goals. Based on those answers you will either be forever in pursuit of tigther groups or be content with findings after one range session.

Me...I reload to shoot more, looking for accurate enough to knock down steel, and my goal(s) is to find that load that has the lightest recoil with acceptable accuracy.

And even from rest on a sandbag you must still be consistent...shooting consistently accurate from rest isn't as easy as just propping and pulling...

[twofifty]

^^^ this.

If you shoot USPSA or IDPA, you will also want to pay attention to which loads allow your HG to quickly and naturally return to the original sight picture, without having to force or manhandle the gun. This will speed up your ability to place 2 rounds in the A zone.

Something else: In these action games, knowing your ammo's Power Factor is very important per the rules. You will need to chrono your rounds to make the PF calculation, and leave yourself a cushion for cold days or lower altitude matches.

[Mal H]

TH3180 - it is quite possible to shoot poorly off of a sandbag, it's done all the time. :)

If you really want to eliminate the human factor and only see what your pistol and loads will do, you'll need a Ransom Rest. However, very few can afford one or use it often enough to make the expenditure worthwhile. The next best thing is a pistol perch as opposed to a sandbag. That type of stand supports both the barrel and the grip. If you take good care in pulling the trigger without adding any movement to the pistol, you might be getting better and more consistent results.

[k4swb]

I'm working off the data in the books, what the heck am I doing wrong? I'm close to all five rounds touching but I'm not there.
Sounds like you are getting there. You may have to vary some things SLIGHTLY from exact book numbers. That's one of the fun things about reloading. Just keep practicing.

As another poster said, some sort of pistol perch may make things simpler.
I have at least two different kinds. The most recent I have tried is one from HySkore. http://hyskore.com/wp/2010/12/06/swivel-pistol/
Mine is an older style that was on closeout a couple of years back.

[243winxb]

http://www.americanrifleman.org/home-carousel/images/glock_17_accuracy_small.jpg NRA Review of the Glock 17 http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/glock-17-pistol-history-review/ :) Some shoot better then others is my guess. Not hand fitted match grade target guns.

[KodiakBeer]

At 7 yards, you should be able to mix different powders, different bullet weights, different brass and different primers and still see small groups.

Get out to 25 yards to see what loads are accurate.

[Old krow]

If you want a reference load to compare, try 115 gr MG FMJ with 4.5-4.7 gr W231/HP38

I might even suggest shooting some factory ammo if you have any laying around. Find something that it halfway decent to compare to.

If you take care to shoot the same way then all of you groups should move (open or close) in relation to each other. If you can use a known good load or accurate factory ammo it should give you a good indicator of how your groups are doing.

I shoot more than 5 also. I declare success when my handloads beat out (in terms of accuracy) factory ammo or other known good loads on a consistent basis.

[tac_driver]

My expectations with my loads are sub 2" groups at 15yards out of my Glock 19 from a shooting rest.
147gr. berrys plated round nose 5 shot groups.
BE 3.6 1.760"
WST 3.7 1.885"
Unique 3.7 1.515"
WSF 4.1 1.712"

[rfwobbly]

Mr 3180 -

Welcome back. Some thoughts....

• The Glock is not optimized for accuracy. Some accuracy has been traded away in order to fire every time. Still, I think your optimal groups are at least 1/2" smaller.

• Most modern 9's prefer 124gr bullets. It might be as simple as your bullet weight.

• The largest variable has got to be the amount of powder. Are you weighing each round's powder? How do you insure each round has the same powder?

• Second largest variable has got to be the brass. Is this mixed brass?

Hope this helps!

[TH3180]

Mr 3180 -

Welcome back. Some thoughts....

• The Glock is not optimized for accuracy. Some accuracy has been traded away in order to fire every time. Still, I think your optimal groups are at least 1/2" smaller.

• Most modern 9's prefer 124gr bullets. It might be as simple as your bullet weight.

• The largest variable has got to be the amount of powder. Are you weighing each round's powder? How do you insure each round has the same powder?

• Second largest variable has got to be the brass. Is this mixed brass?

Hope this helps!
Here is the list.
Federal brass. Where I bought some brass to get stocked up. He buys it from a local PD, they shoot 100% Federal and I know it is once fired. I have been using my powder thrower. I get my weight set up then weigh again after five. All my rounds are at 1.152".
So far I am thinking a few things. I need to test more than 5 rounds, I should weigh every round when working up a powder, I need to slow down when shooting from a rest, I plane old need more practice and I need to remember this should be fun. I think I am getting to critical about the numbers. The only way I am going to get better about this, is do it more.
To all please let me know am I on track.

[918v]

I'd expect a Glock to be able to shoot 1" groups at 7 yards. But that don't mean every load will shoot 1". Some will shoot worse.

I have found N320 to be generally more accurate in the 9mm with lighter bullet weights than 231, like 50% more accurate. You may wanna try it.

[TH3180]

I'd expect a Glock to be able to shoot 1" groups at 7 yards. But that don't mean every load will shoot 1". Some will shoot worse.

I have found N320 to be generally more accurate in the 9mm with lighter bullet weights than 231, like 50% more accurate. You may wanna try it.
Now when you say 1" groups. Are you saying anything that starts with a 1 or are you saying 1" and below. Most of the test groups I have shot have been in the 1" range some towards the high end of 1 and some towards the low end of 1.

[bds]

Now when you say 1" groups. Are you saying anything that starts with a 1 or are you saying 1" and below?
1" shot groups center-to-center or less.
With G17/G22 at 7 yards, you should be getting 1 inch shot groups and 2 inch shot groups at 10 yards.


The Glock is not optimized for accuracy. Some accuracy has been traded away in order to fire every time.
True. My experience with Glocks have been that they are well capable of producing sub 1"-2" shot groups at 7-10 yards and sub 3" shot groups at 15 yards. But wait, there's more ... read on. :D

Although I usually get very good accuracy with Montana Gold FMJ loads, when I did a range test of Promo powder that varied .2-.3 gr charge-to-charge, I even got these shot groups with Missouri lead bullets out of G22/G27 using Lone Wolf barrels (factory Glock barrels produce even more accurate shot groups):

180 Lead/4.4 gr - 7 yard 1" - 10 yard 2" - 15 yard 2.5" - Firm recoil

Here's the rest of the range test (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=6509911#post6509911):
40S&W average shot groups:
155 FMJ/4.8 gr - 10 yard 2" - 15 yard 3" - Firm recoil
155 FMJ/5.2 gr - 10 yard 2" - 15 yard 3" - Firm recoil

180 Plated/4.5 gr - 10 yard 2" - 15 yard 2" - Firm recoil
180 Plated/4.8 gr - 10 yard 2" - 15 yard 3" - Firm recoil

180 Lead/3.5 gr - Accuracy all over the 8x11 copy paper - Light recoil
180 Lead/3.8 gr - 7 yard 2" - 10 yard 3" - 15 yard 4" - Mild recoil
180 Lead/4.1 gr - 7 yard 1.5" - 10 yard 1" - 15 yard 4" - Moderate recoil
180 Lead/4.4 gr - 7 yard 1" - 10 yard 2" - 15 yard 2.5" - Firm recoil

The 180 gr Rainier plated/4.5 gr was very accurate off hand. My first shot group produced 1" group at 15 yards with the G27! The 180 gr Missouri Bullet/4.4 gr was also very accurate off hand. Many 3 round 15 yard shot groups had two holes near/touching each other. The 180 Missouri Bullet/4.1 gr load also shows promise as I kept getting 1" group at 10 yards.

[RandyP]

Are you a bullseye competition shooter? If so, you will do well to continue your pursuit of the 'single ragged hole'.

Personally for the past 40+ years I have practiced to keep up my proficiency in achieving MOD (Minute of Dead) accuracy at realistic self-defense distances (under 25') In generic terms I can keep all my shots in a group that can be covered by your average paper cake plate. Out at about 50 feet my groups can be covered by your standard 8-9" paper plate. MORE than enough to get the job done.

It all depends on what your realistic needs are and what your expectation level is.

Yes if I really focus on the task, and get my eyeglass prescription updated - lol - I can create reasonably tighter groups, but I'm no longer on that Army Pistol team and it's no longer 1971 - lol.

[REL1203]

40S&W average shot groups:
155 FMJ/4.8 gr - 10 yard 2" - 15 yard 3" - Firm recoil
155 FMJ/5.2 gr - 10 yard 2" - 15 yard 3" - Firm recoil

180 Plated/4.5 gr - 10 yard 2" - 15 yard 2" - Firm recoil
180 Plated/4.8 gr - 10 yard 2" - 15 yard 3" - Firm recoil

180 Lead/3.5 gr - Accuracy all over the 8x11 copy paper - Light recoil
180 Lead/3.8 gr - 7 yard 2" - 10 yard 3" - 15 yard 4" - Mild recoil
180 Lead/4.1 gr - 7 yard 1.5" - 10 yard 1" - 15 yard 4" - Moderate recoil
180 Lead/4.4 gr - 7 yard 1" - 10 yard 2" - 15 yard 2.5" - Firm recoil

The 180 gr Rainier plated/4.5 gr was very accurate off hand. My first shot group produced 1" group at 15 yards with the G27! The 180 gr Missouri Bullet/4.4 gr was also very accurate off hand. Many 3 round 15 yard shot groups had two holes near/touching each other. The 180 Missouri Bullet/4.1 gr load also shows promise as I kept getting 1" group at 10 yards.


Hey bds, with your results above, what Powder were you using?

[918v]

Now when you say 1" groups. Are you saying anything that starts with a 1 or are you saying 1" and below. Most of the test groups I have shot have been in the 1" range some towards the high end of 1 and some towards the low end of 1.


1" and below. What you have shot is what is to be expected. Not all loads will group well. Just because they are printed in a book don't mean they're accurate. They may be safe, but that's all.

Also, be aware that MG is not the holy grail of projectiles. It is a decent bulk product. if you want to test purely for accuracy, try Hornady. They are the most consistent handgun bullets available.

[rfwobbly]

Federal brass.... from a local PD, they shoot 100% Federal and I know it is once fired.
Good deal.


I have been using my powder thrower. I get my weight set up then weigh again after five.
You mean your "powder measure". As a new reloader, maybe you ought to be weighing each load. There are very few powder measures I'd trust to do this work. I'm not saying it's your measure, it could be that your PM just doesn't like your powder.

All my rounds are at 1.152".
Good deal.


So far I am thinking a few things.... I should weigh every round when working up a powder...
Weighing finished rounds just doesn't work. You must weigh the powder all by its lonesome.

You're well on your way!

[918v]

I should weigh every round when working up a powder

Depends on the powder and the measure. i use a RCBS Little Dandy and don't need to weigh every charge because I know it throws consistent charges with the powders I use.

If you are using a measure designed for rifles, or one of those compromised measures with interchangable metering drums, you may have to weigh each charge. The best measure for working up pistol loads is a Redding 10X, if you wanna spend that kind of money.

What powder are you using?

[bds]

Hey bds, with your results above, what Powder were you using?
That particular testing was done with Promo. With W231/HP38, I get even smaller groups at the same/greater distances.

[Nevmavrick]

At 7yd or even 10yd, all the holes should form one, off the rest. If it doesn't, you need to improve your technique. You can't test the ammo until you have your test procedure down.
At the close ranges, you are practicing technique for rapid reaclamation of sights.
25yds is the distance for testing the gun/ammo combo.
But...the most important thing is...have fun. Just because you're nnot getting any information doesn't mean you can't have fun.
Have fun,
Gene

[JDGray]

At 7 yards, you should be able to mix different powders, different bullet weights, different brass and different primers and still see small groups.

Get out to 25 yards to see what loads are accurate.

This.....

Anything will group good at 21', one must back up a bit to get results.

At 21', if I can't shoot inside an inch off hand, I need more trigger time.

[Walkalong]

While 25 yards is a better test, some loads will group very poorly at 7 yards. They will not all shoot through a wallowed out hole.

[JDGray]

While 25 yards is a better test, some loads will group very poorly at 7 yards. They will not all shoot through a wallowed out hole

Yeah, my statement was kinda vague. I'll say I personally haven't had any bad loads that wouldn't group at 7yrds, I'm positive there are some:)

[1SOW]

What size of groups should I look for?

Taking this 'literally", ONE .355" width hole. What you are "trying" to get is the best you'll shoot. You have to 'Aim small to hit small".

If you are satisfied with 2", that's what you'll look/try for.

Sandbags are not necessarily a magic way to shoot better groups. Sandbags front and rear, with the pistol seated fully to point of aim and a very deliberate trigger press should get tight groups at 7 yds. 1" ctr to ctr is not unreasonable. The question is, how many times can you press the trigger with precision?

[Nevmavrick]

1SOW is exactly correct...Sandbags only take out the wiggle. The main problem is in holding the gun. You may change the grip slightly eventho'
'all' you did is cock the hammer, as in a revolver. Even an auto, MAY vary some. 'Technique' is not letting that happen...keeping it consistent.
As you change the grip, the gun shoots to a slightly different place. A handgun is very sensitive that way, and the shorter the barrel, the more sensitive.
If nothing else, it's more oppertunity to shoot!
If it was easy, more people would do it.
Anything worth doing, is worth doing! (Yogi-ism!)
Have fun,
Gene

[steve4102]

I agree with the others, take it out to 20-25 Yards and see how they group.

[RandyP]

With all due respect and sincere kudos for the personal achievement of those who can do better, the 'average' range shooter...at least ALL the ones I've encountered over the past 4 decades... is having a good day if they can keep all their shots on the paper and having a GREAT day if all their rounds find their way into a 4 or 5 inch circle at a max distance of 25 FEET, not yards.

There are of course many of us who can do better on a regular basis after considerable practice, but newcomers to this wonderful hobby of pistol shooting and those who do not shoot every week should should also have reasonable expectations of how they 'might' do in 'real world' conditions at their local range. Otherwise they could easily get disappointed and discouraged if they are not achieveing that 2" at 50 yards that everyone they read about on the internet is claiming.

[steve4102]

With all due respect and sincere kudos for the personal achievement of those who can do better, the 'average' range shooter...at least ALL the ones I've encountered over the past 4 decades... is having a good day if they can keep all their shots on the paper and having a GREAT day if all their rounds find their way into a 4 or 5 inch circle at a max distance of 25 FEET, not yards.


Really, even off a rest?

I am fairly new to handguns, bought my first semi-auto in Jan 09. I have two son's 19 and 16, they are by no stretch of the imagination experts in handgun shooting. They would rather see how fast they can burn up my ammo then test for accuracy. That said, both of these young men can easily shoot 4-5 inch groups off a sand bag at 20 YARDS not feet. Off hand not so much, but off a bag, no problem.

[REL1203]

With all due respect and sincere kudos for the personal achievement of those who can do better, the 'average' range shooter...at least ALL the ones I've encountered over the past 4 decades... is having a good day if they can keep all their shots on the paper and having a GREAT day if all their rounds find their way into a 4 or 5 inch circle at a max distance of 25 FEET, not yards.

There are of course many of us who can do better on a regular basis after considerable practice, but newcomers to this wonderful hobby of pistol shooting and those who do not shoot every week should should also have reasonable expectations of how they 'might' do in 'real world' conditions at their local range. Otherwise they could easily get disappointed and discouraged if they are not achieveing that 2" at 50 yards that everyone they read about on the internet is claiming.

Thanks for saying that. I have been shooting all my life, since I was 7 years old. I am now 30 and been reloading for over a year. I shoot 1/2moa all day long with a good rifle, but with handguns, I am just not near as good. Off hand, I shoot at 25-30ft, and i generally look for 2" group from the center for good reload recipes. I really cant shoot for ****e off hand at 25yards, and every time I try with reloads, it always leaves myself guessing if the load isnt a good load of it its just me. The best thing to do is figure out your own distance that you feel you are good at, and work from there. For me, that distance is a max of 30ft and I know what good factory rounds shoot for me, and then I can judge how good my reloads are then. Pistol recipes are definitly way harder to judge accuracy then rifle reloads are so take your time.

[bds]

newcomers ... who do not shoot every week should should also have reasonable expectations of how they 'might' do in 'real world' conditions at their local range. Otherwise they could easily get disappointed and discouraged
New shooters achieving 4-6" shot groups at 7 yards is a good start.

I often hear shooters on the next lanes complain how their new pistol is not shooting well. They see my shot groups and comment that I probably have "match grade" trigger/components in my pistols as they see the stainless Lone Wolf barrels in my Glocks.

I tell them their pistols are capable of shooting very accurate, and often demonstrate using their pistols in duplicating the same tight shot groups at 7-10-15 yards. When they see the same accuracy produced by their pistols, they are happy with their new guns and admit that they need to practice more.

When I work with a new shooter at 5 yards, I tell them 4-6" shot group is a good start and have them work towards reducing down to 2-3" before I move the target out to 7 yards. Although they will want to practice with targets out to 10-15 yards, I have them practice until they get consistent 2-3" shot groups at 7 yards before moving the target out farther as inconsistent stance/grip/sight/trigger control will be less evident at farther distances.

The usual practice drill I have them run at 7 yards is 2 copy papers taped side-by-side and have them shoot target-to-target so they have to acquire the POA each time they fire. Once they obtain the 2-3" shot groups consistently, I tape up 4 copy papers and call out the targets (top right, bottom left, etc.) until they can produce 2-3" shot groups with fast front sight flash shots.

[RandyP]

My range proficiency comments were meant for folks shooting free standing, not from a rest. My fav LGS range doe not allow bench-rest shooting anyway.

Consistent high accuracy pistol shooting is a very worthwhile goal, and so is growing the number of folks who enjoy the shooting sports in these 'politically correct' times. Nothing could discourage a newcomer more than unrealistic expectations or negative first experiences. There is NO shame, and actually considerable SD logic in practicing shooting at targets at 25 feet or less where the likelyhood for some success is greater.

[Walkalong]

Most pistol shooters can not shoot 2" groups at 25 yards. Many can't hold 6" at 25 yards. They have fun just the same though.

I can shoot 2" to 3", and occasionally better, at 25 yards on a good day, but I shoot a lot. I can also shoot 6" groups at 25 yards just as easily, trust me.

I like to shoot clay pigeons on the berm at 100 yards with everything from .22 LR to .45 Colt, and make frequent hits, but I miss a lot of them. Still lots of fun.

bds is an above average pistol shooter, and there are plenty of those here at THR, but most folks at the range are, well, average, especially new pistol shooters. They need encouragement, praise, and guidance. :)

[918v]

The best group I have ever fired off hand was 1" at 15 yards with a Sig P226, slow fire. It only happened once. My off-hand ability right now is 2" at 15 yards with a gun capable of .5" at 15 yards from a rest. It's all about practice, nerves, voodoo, etc. CNS depressants help to steady the aim, but alot of them are illegal ;)

[bds]

most folks at the range are, well, average, especially new pistol shooters. They need encouragement, praise, and guidance. They have fun just the same though.
Absolutely! Actually, on some range sessions, compared to other shooters, my shot groups look like I am the "average" shooter. :rolleyes: And I am the one asking what I am doing wrong and why my groups are not tighter like others. :D



Sorry if I drifted the thread from OP's question:
I am only reloading 9mm. I am shooting them out of a G17. I am using winchester primers, a few different powders and Montana Gold Bullets 115g and 147g. I am shooting my test loads at an indoor range, 7 yards off of a sandbag rest. Five shot groups.

What size groups should I be looking for? Are we talking sub-five inches, sub-one inch or somewhere in-between.

I got a 1.841" group. I shot the same load today and my group was 2.339". I'm working up these loads and I am getting groups with in a half of an inch of each other at different powder weights. Please point me in the right direction here. I you need more details please let me know.
I was trying to post what the G17 and Montana Gold bullets were capable of in regards to shot groups for the OP to look forward to.

As for load development, I think the consistency of shot groups may be more significant than the smallest shot groups. If one load produces consistent 1.5" shot groups, it may be better than one that varies from 1" to 2", even though it managed a smaller group.

[TH3180]

Absolutely! Actually, on some range sessions, compared to other shooters, my shot groups look like I am the "average" shooter. :rolleyes: And I am the one asking what I am doing wrong and why my groups are not tighter like others. :D



Sorry if I drifted the thread from OP's question:

I was trying to post what the G17 and Montana Gold bullets were capable of in regards to shot groups for the OP to look forward to.

As for load development, I think the consistency of shot groups may be more significant than the smallest shot groups. If one load produces consistent 1.5" shot groups, it may be better than one that varies from 1" to 2", even though it managed a smaller group.
That makes a lot of sense to me. Getting five 2" groups is better then two 1" and three 3" groups. I think I need to just keep working on it. I know I am not a good pistol shooter. One year ago is the 1st time I ever shot a gun of any kind. I have been to the range not more then 15 times in the last year. Thank you everyone for the great tips please keep them coming.

[KodiakBeer]

Look, anybody can shoot a respectable group at 7 yards. It may stroke your ego to shoot at that range because you're getting groups that look like you can shoot, but essentially you are learning almost nothing. When you back off to 25 yards, your mistakes become extremely apparent. You are forced to slow down and walk yourself through each shot. You are forced to finesse the gun, your grip, your trigger pull, to get good results. After a while, that finesse become ingrained muscle memory and then you can rattle off good groups (at 25 yards) as fast as you want, all day long.

One shot at 25 yards is worth one hundred shots at 7 yards.

The other thing that will make you a good shooter is to buy a freaking .22! With a .22 you can shoot 500 rounds for $15. It takes every bit as much "finesse" to group a .22 at 25 yards as it does a full sized pistol. And those lessons carry over when you pick up your 9/.40/.45.

Shoot a couple hundred rounds of .22. Then pick up your full sized gun and shoot a few magazines. Then pick up your .22 again. Repeat.

Edited to add: Shooting from a rest doesn't count! It's a waste of time, except for perhaps checking the POA of a new gun.

[RidgwayCO]

"It depends..." (can you tell I've received extensive training in Economics?)

Sorry, but everyone can't shoot one-hole groups. Even those who can accomplish this usually can't do it all the time. It's easier to shoot accurately off of a rest, but this still doesn't make "one-holers" a certainty. I've noticed that even Ransom Rests don't usually put all the bullets in one hole...

Besides such obvious factors as the gun, ammunition, range and lighting, other things such as your age, condition, "the shakes" (those of you with very physical jobs and/or a history of substance abuse know what I'm referring to), eyesight, how much sleep you got last night (or last week), your current relationship with your spouse/significant other, your daughter's new tatoo/boyfriend, etc. etc. etc., can all make a difference in how well you're shooting right now. Some days on the range I can chew the center out of the target. On other days it looks like I'm using a shotgun (and not a particularly accurate one). All just a part of this sport, and it can be humbling (sort of like golf...).

If you want to maximize whatever abilities you have, then go get lessons from a professional, listen to what they say, and then try to apply their wisdom as thoroughly as you can. After all, it's just aligning the sights and then pressing the trigger...

[TH3180]

Look, anybody can shoot a respectable group at 7 yards. It may stroke your ego to shoot at that range because you're getting groups that look like you can shoot, but essentially you are learning almost nothing. When you back off to 25 yards, your mistakes become extremely apparent. You are forced to slow down and walk yourself through each shot. You are forced to finesse the gun, your grip, your trigger pull, to get good results. After a while, that finesse become ingrained muscle memory and then you can rattle off good groups (at 25 yards) as fast as you want, all day long.

One shot at 25 yards is worth one hundred shots at 7 yards.

The other thing that will make you a good shooter is to buy a freaking .22! With a .22 you can shoot 500 rounds for $15. It takes every bit as much "finesse" to group a .22 at 25 yards as it does a full sized pistol. And those lessons carry over when you pick up your 9/.40/.45.

Shoot a couple hundred rounds of .22. Then pick up your full sized gun and shoot a few magazines. Then pick up your .22 again. Repeat.

Edited to add: Shooting from a rest doesn't count! It's a waste of time, except for perhaps checking the POA of a new gun.
I have a .22lr three of them actually and I shoot at least one of them every time I go to the range. I am shooting off a rest to test my rounds not me. I agree 100% that shooting off a rest doesn't test the skill of the shooter. I'm not trying to stroke my ego at all by shooting at 7 yards. I know I am not really good at shooting yet. At this point in time I have no interest in shooting my 9mm at 25 yards. The shooting fun matches I am shooting in, the longest you have to shoot is 10 yards. Thank you so much for your straight forward advice on this subject. Keep the tips coming everyone.

[Walkalong]

One shot at 25 yards is worth one hundred shots at 7 yards.

I will be the first to say that shooting at longer distances makes you a better shot up close, and I shoot handguns at 100 yards often, but I disagree to some extent that shooting at 7 yards is a waste of time and means nothing. I shoot a lot of groups at 7 yards through the chrono getting numbers. I can usually tell if a load can shoot doing that. Sometimes a load that shoots well at 7 yards does not shoot well at 25 yards, but most times it does.

A good group off hand at 7 yards should be a wallowed out hole. Any mistake still shows up. It just does not show up as big. If you know what you are looking at it will show you what is going on.

Here is a six shot group shot offhand at 7 yards shot with a 5.5" Redhawk in .44 Mag. yea, I left one hanging out.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=134079&d=1295008647

Here is a seven shot group shot at 7 yards with a powder puff .45 ACP load using a red dot sight. Yea, choked on one shot again.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=50297&d=1167697005

Here is another one with the same 1911 where the paper folded over in the wind on one shot. No one believes me that all seven shots went through the center.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=66241&d=1193514563

If I had saved any, I could show plenty of bad groups at 7 yards as well. :o

[bds]

It depends ... on your current relationship with your spouse/significant other
We were helping a female class of new shooters one time at the range and they were very "gun shy" from recoil/noise and getting really poor shot groups.

I jokingly told them to bring their ex-hubby/ex-boyfriends' pics as targets on their next session. Well, they did and we zoomed out the pics on the copier to paste over the target cardboards.

Nobody missed their bullseye that day! Talk about focused shooting! :eek:

So, I agree ... many factors do affect how you shoot on a particular day. :D

[KodiakBeer]

At this point in time I have no interest in shooting my 9mm at 25 yards. The shooting fun matches I am shooting in, the longest you have to shoot is 10 yards.

What I'm trying to explain to you is that shooting at 25 yards will make you a fantastic shooter at 10 yards. Once you can group at longer ranges, shooting at close range becomes ridiculously easy. If you keep shooting at spitting distance you really can't improve.

[bds]

What I'm trying to explain to you is that shooting at 25 yards will make you a fantastic shooter at 10 yards.
Well ... some of us have hard time seeing that far, let alone hit that far ...

[Walkalong]

What I'm trying to explain to you is that shooting at 25 yards will make you a fantastic shooter at 10 yards.
I agree. As I posted earlier, shooting at long distance makes you a better shooter. It makes you focus much more. Back when I was a youth with superb vision I used to shoot gallon paint cans at 50 to 100 yards in the gravel pit with a Remington Rand to work on my shooting. I could plug them pretty easily. It really helped when shooting at closer ranges.

Even though the target at 100 yards is not clear these days, I can still shoot pretty well at that range. I miss the days when I could spot a marble at 100 yards. :(

[RandyP]

I reckon that all I can do then is get my LGS to blow out the back wall of their range and add another 25 feet to their building? - LOL

Please note that while there are those fortunate to live in the wilderness where there are outdoor ranges, many of us poor soul 'city folk' shoot indoors and many a range's back wall is 50 feet or there abouts.

The need for distance proficiency I reckon also depends on the individual shooter's needs. As I mentioned earlier I practice for the simple fun of plinking and to stay self-defense competent at realistic SD scenario distances (well under 25 feet). Good luck convincing a jury that the mope you shot 75+ feet away was an 'immediate danger' to your life.

Will being able to produce tightish groups at 75 feet naturally make you uber-proficient at 15? Of course it will, no debate there. Is that level of proficiency 'necessary or expected' for the average shooter, of course not.

[243winxb]

Like i said > http://www.americanrifleman.org/home-carousel/images/glock_17_accuracy_small.jpg With a magazine capacity of 17 cartridges, who needs a group? Just fill the air with lead and run like hell. :D For you "old guys", just put a shotgun in the shoulder holster. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/smilies/lol.gif http://littlejimssports.com/product_images/uploaded_images/taurus-judge-410-3-inch-2.gif :uhoh:

[k4swb]

If you are using a six inch target at 20' and want to simulate shooting at 25 yards, use a smaller target by whatever factor you need. Approx. 1.6".

This ain't rocket surgery.:eek:

[TH3180]

I'm not trying to simulate 25 yards. I was looking for help on working up loads. If I want to shoot at 25 yards, all I have to do is hit 75# and the target goes down the line to 25 yards.

[steve4102]

I'm not trying to simulate 25 yards. I was looking for help on working up loads

Yeah, personally I can't tell much about my loads shootin at 20-25 feet off a rest. Move out a little farther and see how it goes.

[orionengnr]

Don't know if this will help, and I'm certainly not the best shot on this thread so far...but I found a good suggestion on this board a year or two ago, and have been using it ever since.

The theory is "aim small, miss small".

The way I put this into action is by using 3 x 5 index cards as targets, with a 1" orange dot in the center.

I have a whole bunch of them, and use them for all calibers. I start out with a .22LR, usually put 20 rounds per card, and run through 100 rounds (5 cards) before shifting to a centerfire pistol/revolver.

I still use the 3 x 5 card with the 1" dot. Nearly all my shooting is at 25 feet.

If I concentrate, I can put five rounds into one inch or less. I generally shoot better with centerfire rounds than I do with .22LR...probably because I concentrate better with centerfire rounds.

[1SOW]

orionengnr: I agree with this principle.

Given a gun that shoots reasonable close to point of aim and someone who shoots fairly regularly:

If I set up a 9" pie plate at 7yds and ask you to hit it--you'll aim at a 9" pie plate.

If I set up a bright red 12ga shotgun hull on the 25 yd berm, you'll aim at the hull.

I honestly have done this fun test with several people, and the best part is, most will come as close to the shotgun hull as they do to the center of the plate. Not necessarily 'every' shot, but most shots will. What will surprise some, is that they may 'bounce' the hull at least once.

[TH3180]

Don't know if this will help, and I'm certainly not the best shot on this thread so far...but I found a good suggestion on this board a year or two ago, and have been using it ever since.

The theory is "aim small, miss small".

The way I put this into action is by using 3 x 5 index cards as targets, with a 1" orange dot in the center.

I have a whole bunch of them, and use them for all calibers. I start out with a .22LR, usually put 20 rounds per card, and run through 100 rounds (5 cards) before shifting to a centerfire pistol/revolver.

I still use the 3 x 5 card with the 1" dot. Nearly all my shooting is at 25 feet.

If I concentrate, I can put five rounds into one inch or less. I generally shoot better with centerfire rounds than I do with .22LR...probably because I concentrate better with centerfire rounds.
Intresting thought, I think I will try that the next I go to the range. Thanks for the tip.

[bds]

If I set up a bright red 12ga shotgun hull on the 25 yd berm, you'll aim at the hull.

I honestly have done this fun test with several people, and the best part is, most will come as close to the shotgun hull as they do to the center of the plate. Not necessarily 'every' shot, but most shots will. What will surprise some, is that they may 'bounce' the hull at least once.
Yes, done it often with shotgun hulls/golf balls. This is true of shorter distance target as well, as what you are doing is "walking" your shots based on your last POA/POI. But this is not accuracy verification of test load development that requires the exact same POA for each shot fired.


What I got as the intent of the OP was test load development and consistency verification of expected shot group sizes.
I shot some AA#7 pushing a 147g last week and I got a 1.841" group. I shot the same load today and my group was 2.339". I'm working up these loads
When I work up my loads, I try to shoot them all on the same range trip, from starting charge to high/max loads to duplicate the same temperature, pistol/barrel condition and shooter's condition (me and approximate amount of coffee in the system :D) for more consistent shot group comparison. I select the same POA for every shot fired for the same shot group.

When I review my shot groups of each charge shot at various distances, I usually get accuracy verification with the 7 yard groups. Comparing 10 yard and 15 yard shot groups usually reveal where the more accurate charges were. If you look at the range test of 180 gr test loads below, although 4.1 gr charge did produce a smaller 1" shot group at 10 yards and 4.4 gr charge produced a larger 2" shot group, ultimately 15 yard shot groups determined that 4.4 gr charge was the most accurate charge load for that range test.
180 Lead/3.8 gr - 7 yard 2" - 10 yard 3" - 15 yard 4" - Mild recoil
180 Lead/4.1 gr - 7 yard 1.5" - 10 yard 1" - 15 yard 4" - Moderate recoil
180 Lead/4.4 gr - 7 yard 1" - 10 yard 2" - 15 yard 2.5" - Firm recoil
Some may say, but you got a smaller shot group of 1" at 10 yards with the 4.1 gr load. I would say, you are right. So, I would repeat my range test using 4.1 and 4.4 gr at the same 10 yard distance on the follow up range test to verify whether this was the charge load or the shooter.

I usually repeat my range tests until I get duplicate results at least twice before I consider my findings consistent and repeatable. I also usually bring a known reference load that's been verified to be accurate for comparison as well.

When I tested my initial 200 gr 45ACP 4.0 gr charge test load of Promo and got inconsistent shot groups, I went back to the range with my reference 200 gr 45ACP 5.0 gr W231/HP38 loads and the reference loads produced expected accurate shot groups. This made me realize that my inconsistent shot groups were due to the load and not the pistol.

I hope this helped.

[Nevmavrick]

If you're shooting so close that you get GSR on the target, you are testing technique, not load data. You have to be far enough away that the effect is evident. The proscribed range with an iron-sighted handgun is 25yd because it difficult to see past that. Remember, the TARGET blurs, not the sights. The distance between the sights is short...that's why the distance for iron-sighted rifles is 50yd.
I know, high-power is fired with iron sights, and when you test those guns, you are testing the ammo with other effects, such as grip, and wind.
If you are working with a handgun at 7yd, 10yd or 15yds, you have to make up your mind whether you are testing target aquisition or just "making noise," which can be fun, too. TA practise is best used with several targets at different distances and you try to shoot as rapidly as you can, AND HIT ALL THE TARGETS!
Many are the times that I've illustrated to another shooter, who was trying to hit a target as quick as possible with a full magazine of ammo. They usually only hit 3-4 times out of 15-18. I tell them, "Slow down." They tell me "No," that they are practicing for speed.
I bring out a revolver and tell them I can put more ammo downrange than they can with their auto. They will, of course, call my bet... We line up, and at the command, I throw a full box of ammo at the target. They'll say "What good is THAT?" I tell them, "What's the difference, you're not hitting anything, anyway."
If you, as an experienced shooter, tell a beginner that they're doing well when they get small groups with powder-burns on the paper, you're doing them a disservice, because they won't stive to get better.
If you are just out there to have fun, and "make noise," admit it and do it. It is fun, but don't try to fool yourself into thinking you can shoot well.
Have fun,
Gene

[Walkalong]

I always tell them they are doing well for a beginner, and that they will get even better with practice, unless of course, they are just horrible, then I remain quite, or try to find something else to be positive about.

I save the "brutally honest" opinions for folks I know well and who can take it, or those who just beg for it.

[Nevmavrick]

Of course, you're right, Walkalong. I was actually thinking more along the lines of the beginner thinking to themselves, and a few shooters trying to be PC...not tell the newbie what's up, so they can improve.
There are few things I enjoy more than helping someone then them turning around and beating my tail, lol. That's actually not very hard to do.
Have fun,
Gene

[Walkalong]

Yes, for those really wanting to improve and willing to put in the work/practice, and for those who need to find a competitive load, they definitely need to hear the truth so they can get better.

It's an on the spot judgment call what is needed/warranted for any given situation. :)