Decriminalize self-defense (USA Today 3/1/2011)


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Blueeyedme
March 1, 2011, 05:39 PM
Interesting editorial in the USA Today...speaks to parts of our proposed Florida SB 234 but on a national scope (it's not just a Florida issue). The writer uses logic rather than emotion to make his case. Enjoy.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2011-03-01-editorial01_ST1_N.htm

Here's a snip...

Decriminalize self-defense (USA Today 3/1/2011)

By David Burnett

For some, allowing guns on campus seems about as smart as fighting a flood with a garden hose. A thousand what-if scenarios of students with guns seem to paint a vivid argument against guns on campus. However, these what-ifs boil down to nothing more than emotional arguments that don't match reality.... <snip>

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Mightee1
March 1, 2011, 07:12 PM
Good article although its likely just reinforcing the viewpoint that all THR members have already.

If colleges don't allow people to protect themselves from criminal violence, then they should take 100% FULL responsibility for student safety. If I, as a law abiding, level-headed citizen cannot carry a firearm to class, I want the college to make 100% certain that nobody else can have one either; a feat that impossible.

cheygriz
March 1, 2011, 07:17 PM
If the folks in the universities can't be trusted with guns, who can??

Aren't these supposed to be our "best and brightest?"

We trust them with laser, nuclear and particle beam weapon research, but not with handguns?????:banghead::banghead:

Something wrong with this picture! :fire:

hammer03
March 1, 2011, 10:50 PM
I was going to contest the "best and brightest" comment, after going through college and seeing what most of the other folks were like (some of those kids eventually grow up to be the regular joes that do dumb things)


And then I thought beyond that to working in the Chemistry labs, and the graduate lab I worked in senior year, and all the hazardous and dangerous things I had access to... You've got a good point.

Ske1etor
March 1, 2011, 11:05 PM
If the folks in the universities can't be trusted with guns, who can??

Aren't these supposed to be our "best and brightest?"

We trust them with laser, nuclear and particle beam weapon research, but not with handguns?????:banghead::banghead:

Something wrong with this picture! :fire:

No no... when it comes to firearms, all college students are drug using, alcohol abusing children.

Thlax
March 1, 2011, 11:21 PM
Yup you got me figure out. Double major on deans list with a CCW must also mean I'm a druggy and drunk. Thankfully I can CCW up our main street and in town but can't carry "on campus". Hopefully that'll change. If it doesn't float your boat, don't carry, but it at least let's some people express their rights and better protect themselves and others around them.

Deus Machina
March 2, 2011, 02:13 AM
I can't believe that the people I've mentioned hoping for campus carry to, know the current laws, and then suddenly forget it.

"But these kids are still so immature and emotional! You'd trust them with guns?"
"The ones over 21, like the law requires, yes.
"...Oh, right."

Yeah, the kids I go to school with are the most immature, least thoughtful people I've ever had the displeasure to attempt a project with--when they're right out of high school. By the time they're 21, they've either buckled down and grown up a bit, or decided they don't really need to know more than how to count change and write "extra pickles" or, if they're of the bunch that can actually work, "replaced wheel bearings."

Double Naught Spy
March 2, 2011, 11:04 AM
If the folks in the universities can't be trusted with guns, who can??

I dunno. I know that in most states, the people running gun shows don't trust us with loaded guns and they want our carry guns or guns brought in to be in bondage.

There are a variety of gun shows that don't want people having loaded guns in their stores.

The writer uses logic rather than emotion to make his case. Enjoy.

While the author does use logic, he is short on some facts and that influences the validity of his logic.

Take this statement...
Since colleges have no mechanism to enforce gun-free zones, these killers had a government guarantee that their victims would be unarmed and defenseless.
If the author truly believes this, then I would contend that the author is going to be fairly defenseless with or without a gun. I find it ironic how many gun people consider themselves to be so well prepared for adversity and then I learn that they aren't much more than a floundering fish flopping around on the hot pavement if they don't have a gun. My 11 year old daughter is better prepared than they are for adversity.

The logic used, that guns=self defense is misrepresentative. Self defense has not been criminalized by gun control laws. They have simply made having a gun on places like campuses illegal (which I don't like, BTW), but actually say nothing about making self defense illegal. There have been numerous incidents where shooters have been taken down by "unarmed and defenseless" people on school campuses and in other areas. If the claim that being unarmed is the same thing as being defenseless as indicated in the article, then how were these unarmed and defenseless people able to defend themselves? The statements of the author indicate that this can't happen. After all, if a person is defenseless, as defined by not having a gun, then these people could not have defended themselves, yet they did.

For a college boy, the author really doesn't sound like he understands what he is talking about. He sounds like an idiot because self defense hasn't been criminalized.

DWC
March 2, 2011, 11:34 AM
Excellent article and easily understandable. Even the "Yes, but..." crowd will have trouble attempting to counter this logic.

Ben86
March 2, 2011, 11:44 AM
If the folks in the universities can't be trusted with guns, who can??

Aren't these supposed to be our "best and brightest?"

We trust them with laser, nuclear and particle beam weapon research, but not with handguns?????

Good point. My wife, for example, works with machinery and chemicals at our college that could blow up the freaking building if something went very wrong. Kind of fails in comparison when it comes to carrying a little handgun.

That's a good article, and I think a sign of pro-gun attitudes becoming mainstream instead of taboo.

Vern Humphrey
March 2, 2011, 11:45 AM
Here's the key point:
Being on campus doesn't magically make responsible citizens reckless
In Virginia, anyone over 18 who can legally possess a firearm can carry openly without a license. Anyone over 21 without a criminal record can get a CCW.

In other words, virtually every college student can legally carry a firearm, except on campus.

Since the right to carry off-campus does not result in tragedies, isn't it reasonable to assume those same citizens would behave just as responsibly on campus? What is it about colleges that somehow makes responsible citizens irresponsible as soon as they come on campus?

Thlax
March 2, 2011, 12:00 PM
In DE anyone Over 18 can OC and anyone over 18 can get a CCW. (obviously passing the process tho)

Prince Yamato
March 2, 2011, 12:26 PM
It's a good article. The whole "no campus carry" thing is rather silly. I carry everywhere legal and go about my daily business. I like to think that I'm just a normal person who happens to carry a p32 in his pocket. I don't make others around me uncomfortable. It's your personality that dictates the comfort of those around you, not the fact that you may be CCW-ing.

Blueeyedme
March 2, 2011, 12:29 PM
For a college boy, the author really doesn't sound like he understands what he is talking about. He sounds like an idiot because self defense hasn't been criminalized.

You think he's the idiot?...LoL. This David Burnett is an interesting guy. Students for Concealed Carry on Campus - who knew?? ...agree or disagree, its great to see this kind of student activism. Here is a link with a bit more information for anyone who is interested.

http://www.concealedcampus.org/

tyeo098
March 2, 2011, 12:33 PM
I worked at UCF for the AFRL and the .gov trusted me with satellites, but the campus cant trust me with a handgun. I hope this law passes (btw I'm only 19 so Id have to get my CCW first.....)

almherdfan
March 2, 2011, 02:57 PM
I favor allowing ccw on college campuses (really just about any public place for that matter), but don't buy the argument that armed student/professors will have an impact on wackadoodle shooters. The answer to preventing mass killings is better psychological care, not 10-round magazines, or a glock on every hip.

Vern Humphrey
March 2, 2011, 03:05 PM
But how do we get psychological care to the people who need it?

Uteridge
March 2, 2011, 03:16 PM
People will always slip through the cracks of the system. I have yet to see psychological care pull out a Glock and take down an active shooter in the middle of mass murder. Armed citizens have in several circumstances. I'll stick with the students and Professors wearing Glocks (and receiving the proper training.)

Vern Humphrey
March 2, 2011, 03:24 PM
Exactly.

It's never a solution to propose what cannot be done. We cannot locate all potentialy violent people and "treat" them to make them non-violent.

We can go armed.

Ben86
March 2, 2011, 03:34 PM
It seems like when lawmakers think of college students they think of the stereotypical frat boy that is wild, drinks heavy and acts reckless. From my experience most college students are far from this. Most just want to make the grades while holding a decent job, a lot of them, like myself, are married, some even with kids. This notion that it will just cause a bunch of irresponsible, drunk college kids to be armed and dangerous is silly. By 21 most people have outgrown their irresponsible phase, if they ever went through one, and a lot are all ready on their way out of college.

Diggers
March 2, 2011, 03:41 PM
One big misconception about this topic is that a bunch of college kids (18 to 21 year olds) will be carrying guns around with them. I think this is what makes a lot of people uncomfortable with this idea. They do have a point with that. (though an incorrect one.) Lets not get to carried away with how ultra responsible the average college kid is....I remember college. ;)

Perhaps a little education about who would legally be allowed to CCW on campus would help. It would be staff and older mature students and NOT some 18 year old who is away from home for the first time in his life and partying it up.

Information is key.( kinda ironic )

Oh by the way, I went to a very VERY liberal college in the early-mid 90s and I know for a fact that a number of students had guns on campus. (Yep even there) I've no idea what the law said about that at the time but that's what was going on. So.....who knows what really happens on campus today.

gearhead
March 2, 2011, 03:54 PM
+1 on the current levels of responsibility required to work with the potential hazards on a college campus. When I was a Freshman at Georgia Tech 'way back in the '70s I was amazed to learn that Georgia Tech maintained a small but fully functional and operating nuclear reactor for their Nuclear Engineering students. Right in the middle of urban Atlanta and virtually across the road from the Coca Cola building. I'd wager that most people aren't even aware it's there.

TX1911fan
March 2, 2011, 04:48 PM
For me personally, I don't really care if someone else is able to stop a crazed gunman on campus. I care that I or my family has a chance if they are confronted with a crazed gunman on campus. I am not a cop, but I don't want to be a target either.

almherdfan
March 2, 2011, 05:08 PM
We'll never stop EVERY mentally ill shooter/knifer/bomber, etc, but we could have stopped the AZ shooter, Army Psychiatrist, the VT shooter. All fell through the very large cracks in our current system.

IMHO, we are better served filling in those cracks. I support ccw, but don't think it's the solution. I am on a college campus 5-6 days a week & hate leaving my weapon home (especially because I go through questionable neighborhoods to get there).

I'd think we can stop the nutjobs before he/she ever gets evil thoughts & means together and step foot on campus.

Ben86
March 2, 2011, 05:13 PM
I'd think we can stop the nutjobs before he/she ever gets evil thoughts & means together and step foot on campus.

A lot of people have that misconception unfortunately.

shep854
March 2, 2011, 06:21 PM
"I'd think we can stop the nutjobs before he/she ever gets evil thoughts & means together and step foot on campus."--almherdfan

Make that "many, if not most of" and I'll be in complete agreement. Even in a totalitarian society where people could be committed on suspicion of mental illness, some would be missed. I shudder to think of how that could be abused.:uhoh:

Deus Machina
March 2, 2011, 06:38 PM
I'd like to think we can stop the nutjobs before he/she ever gets evil thoughts & means together and step foot on campus.
or
I'd think we can stop more of the nutjobs before he/she ever gets evil thoughts & means together and step foot on campus.

There. Fixed it.

The problem is that, even without cracks, a lot of nutjobs seem more or less fine, if often opinionated, until they snap/hear the voice/swing into the other side of their manic-depressive condition.

No one knew the Columbine kids would step as far as they did, but there's always something that pushes them from 'upset' into 'raging psycho.'

Yeah, we can catch a lot more than we already have but, under the current system, schools have started paying attention to the kids to the point of invasiveness, and haven't stopped the murders completely, or the sometimes-underlying bullying problems at all.

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