Recoil problem please help!


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Tough Guns
March 2, 2011, 11:46 PM
Hi, i always kind of had a problem with recoil, scared to say im afraid to try anything i havent already tried. when i was 12 i didnt know how to shoot a rifle correct i was just put behind a marlin 35. Boom. the gun went off and got scope forhead. even since then i've just been sticking with a marlin 30-30, a 12 gauge, a flintlock, and a .22. BUT I WANT CHANGE! i want something different that doesnt kick much worst than a 12 gauge, a 30-30 and a flintlock. i was wondering how bad is a .223, .243, 7mm, and a 30-06? please let me know the difference in recoil between them. thanks.

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hoghunting
March 3, 2011, 12:25 AM
Welcome to the forum.

If the .30-30 recoil doesn't bother you, then you won't have any problems with the .223 or .243. Not sure which 7mm you're referring, but if it's the 7mm Remington mag, then its recoil will be more than the .30-06. But if you can handle the 12 ga, you will probably be fine with either cartridge.

dawico
March 3, 2011, 12:30 AM
Have you tried 3" 12 gauge shells? If you haven't, they are worse than anything you have listed there, and you can probably try them without buying a new gun.

JEB
March 3, 2011, 12:39 AM
if you can handle your 12ga with slugs, i would say you should be able to handle any commonly available cartridge in the U.S.

i shoot a fair amount of slugs getting ready for deer season and i have not fired any centerfire rifle that kicks more than the 12ga slugs IMHO (this includes rounds such as 22-250, 30-30, 7.62x39, 7.62x54R, 30-06, and 7mm rem mag to name a few).

Tough Guns
March 3, 2011, 12:53 AM
http://www.hr1871.com/Firearms/Shotguns/pardnerPump.asp

on this link i have the fifth one down. its the H&R Pardner Pump Synthetic. and a ventilated recoil pad.

chris in va
March 3, 2011, 12:57 AM
223 out of an AR-15 is like a 22LR. Kicks less than my HiPoint carbine 9mm.

twofifty
March 3, 2011, 01:09 AM
It is too bad that people, out of ignorance or out of a misplaced sense of humor, put 12 year olds behind too much gun. TG, I imagine that was your first time firing a gun...never even put behind a nice .22LR to learn the ropes or figure out what eye relief was best for you.

I'm thinking that the Marlin 35 that scoped you did not have the scope mounted in the right place for you. Or the stock was too long for your body size, so you ended up 'crawling' up the stock (so to speak) in order to reach the trigger... putting your face way too close to the scope.

My suggestion is that you get help from an experienced friend (or pay a gunsmith to work with you) and get all your scopes (even on your .22) mounted in the optimal place for your body type, your hold, and of course while maintaining adequate eye relief. When your cheek is touching the 'cheekweld spot' on the stock, make sure there is no image vignetting, i.e. that you have a full, clear and shadow-free view through the scope. Get your scopes mounted to suit, and you will be safe even behind the more powerful cartridges.

Knowing you are safe behind a fitted scope will eventually do away with that bad memory, and the slight flinch that usually comes with such mishaps.

Tough Guns
March 3, 2011, 01:20 AM
your exactly right everything you said. now im 18 years old. i am a pretty big guy, im 6'3 and pretty broad. i have a 30-30 with a tasco scope and under and over mounts. i think its a great idea to ask help from a gunsmith to work with me for a better setup. i want change and you probably cant blame me. i was looking at maybe a remmington 770. but i dont know what id get in it like maybe a 7mm, .243, .223, or .30-06. i hunt alot. i go for deer, and i want to start going for turkey, squrrel, and rabit. any suggestions?

shiftyer1
March 3, 2011, 02:33 AM
I recommend a .22 lr for squirrel and rabbits. To be honest, if your comfortable with a 12. ga especially with slugs, your gonna be fine. I have a history of dislocated shoulders and are pretty paranoid about recoil due to pain. Is your problem with the scopes?

What do you use deer hunting?

Tough Guns
March 3, 2011, 02:40 AM
i deer hunt with a marlin 30-30. but i was considering getting a .243. scopes arent as much a problem as the recoil. i like to compare it so i know what it would be like before i buy something i wont like. i flinch alot. i just dont know why. ive shot 20 times with my flintlock. and each time i flinched i think

shiftyer1
March 3, 2011, 02:45 AM
The flinch will go away the more you get comfortable with the gun. Although I don't understand why a 12 ga doesn't bother you. I thought maybe it was just a case of you fearing getting bopped in the noggin with the scope.

twofifty
March 3, 2011, 03:40 AM
Others will chime in with suggestions...here are mine:

A Ruger 10/22 for rabbits, squirrels - you should use your shotgun if the area you hunt has thick cover or if it is unsafe to use a rifle. Put a 2x scope on it, or iron sights.

For turkey, something like a .17HMR with a 4x scope. Or a 'turkey choked' shotgun for tightly patterned head shots. The semi-auto shotguns are popular for turkey around here, even though we have open terrain.

For deer, you could look for a nice used Savage lever chambered in 250 Savage, which is a classic retro piece from the 60s. There's lots of good bolt rifles out there, new and used.

For example, I had a close look last week at the new-this-year Savage Axis package which includes a basic 3x9 Bushnell. Lots of value in that package, a good build that I figure would not disappoint a young hunter looking for change.

You can get the Axis in stainless or blued bead-blasted. Has the excellent Savage action. Good detachable box mag. Good recoil pad. Metal trigger guard and sling studs. Standard trigger but with a very clean crisp release. Decent plastic stock. Bedded action iirc. The Axis is available in .223, .22-250, .243, .25-06, 270 Win, 7mm-08, .308, .30-06.

If you are used to a .30-30 and a 12 gauge, you will find the 7-08, the 25-06, the 243 to be good deer rounds, with recoil that is well within your comfort zone.

I'd be tempted by the .243 as it is an accurate flat shooter, has super mild recoil, is devastating on deer and fun on groundhogs/prairie dogs/coyotes, relatively cheap to reload so you can practice a lot with it.

Have fun.

twofifty
March 3, 2011, 03:50 AM
Flinching is a common affliction even among experienced hunters who have never been scoped. You've been scoped, so no surprise that your mind is second guessing you as you release the trigger.

I've been told by several hunters and target competitors that I respect that flinching can be cured -or at least put aside for awhile- by doing a lot of .22LR shooting. You get into a regular .22 training routine to learn position shooting (prone, sitting, post or tree supported, over a hunting pack, standing with and without sling). Look into Metallic Silhouette matches, they're fun and the competitors will be glad to coach you.

After 5000 rounds of thoughtful organized .22LR practice, you will be a crackshot and that flinch will be gone. These skills and the new mindset will transfer immediately to a well fitted .243 Win.

Cryogaijin
March 3, 2011, 03:51 AM
My dad was an ass. He came from the school where you give a 7 year old a .22 and let him plink (Supervised, of course) then give the 7 year old a shotgun for the Lols.

Needless to say I ended up with a flinch.

The way I worked past my flinch was doing various forms of clay-shooting. Having so many things going on at once is an excellent way to keep from overthinking and flinching your shots.

J-Bar
March 3, 2011, 06:18 AM
Part of a flinch is noise. We are all programmed to react to loud noise. Double cover your ears by using both in-the-ear plugs and muffs, then do some benchrest work with a .22, focusing on getting small groups. You won't hear or feel a thing, and it will allow you to train yourself into developing a smooth trigger squeeze and motionless follow-through.

Been there myself.

243winxb
March 3, 2011, 09:09 AM
Hand load your ammo. Hodgdon has Youth loads, Trail Boss powder. There are also cast bullet loads from Lyman using pistol powders. The 3 methods will reduce recoil and velocity. Some ammo manufactures even produce low recoil ammo. Check what availabe at Midwayusa.

oneounceload
March 3, 2011, 04:01 PM
Part of a flinch is noise.

Most flinches are caused by an anticipation, typically recoil. Bad memories or too much over a long period of time induce them - ask an old trap shooter who has fired 100's of thousands of those 1-1/8 trap loads why he now uses a release trigger

recoil is a thing to be avoided at all cost - it has nothing to do with being macho - it has everything to do with becoming debilitated when you're older

jiminhobesound
March 3, 2011, 07:56 PM
Consider how you grip a gun. I grew up with side by side shotguns, lever and bolt action rifles. I was taught to grip the forend of the guns and later developed my own method of pushing with the forend gun and to pull in the gun at the butt end of the gun. I believe this technique served me well in firing some pretty potent guns.

Iggy
March 3, 2011, 09:14 PM
Pound for pound a Winchester 30-30 kicks about as bad as anything.

If you can shoot a 12 gauge, you can handle most anything.

Get your scopes properly located and go for it.

I got a 30-30 when I was 12. Hardest kicking thing I ever shot. Traded it for a 300 H&H when I was 14. Had to kneel to be able to shoot it. First shot put me on my back..... With practice I got use to it and killed my first elk that fall.

Now I ain't trying to impress you with a bunch of macho stuff here. I'm just sayin' if your gun's set up right and you do some shooting, you can overcome the flinch quite well.

Good luck and good shootin'!!

Tough Guns
March 3, 2011, 11:56 PM
Thank you for all the replys! i am going to try some of them before i buy a gun. is there any recomended for me? i already have a 30-30. is 7mm and 30-06 overkill?

twofifty
March 4, 2011, 12:10 AM
Given experiences similar to yours and the resultant flinching, I'd work my way up to the .30-06 or 7mmRemMag, not the other way around.

You've got a 30 caliber (.308") already, your 30-30.
If you really want a 7mm (.284"), get the 7mm-08.

Take a good look at the .243's ballistics and talk to .243 deer hunters before you decide.

Tough Guns
March 4, 2011, 12:15 AM
that sounds like a good idea. what do you shoot?

toycruiser71
March 4, 2011, 12:17 AM
Hi TG....one of the things that worked for me was a lot of dry fire practice. Get some snap caps or something that will protect the firing pin and practice....A LOT. Be safe, make dang certain you are safe, then check again to make dang certain you are safe. Focus out like you have white tail in your sights, breathe correctly, squeeze and make sure that barrel stays put when you hear that click.
I have a .308, which is my second hardest hitter behind my 12 gauge, but seriously, even there, no comparison to the 12 gauge. I have never shot a 7mm mag, but I think I would like to try one. My other rifles really don't have much kick at all to them. .223, .22 and .357 mag lever gun. Good luck!

JTHunter
March 4, 2011, 12:44 AM
Tough Guns - what twofifty said about the .243 is correct.
I'd be tempted by the .243 as it is an accurate flat shooter, has super mild recoil, is devastating on deer and fun on groundhogs/prairie dogs/coyotes, relatively cheap to reload so you can practice a lot with it.
I've had a Remington BDL with a Simmons 3x9 scope for 20 years and do reload 4 different loads. Being in Illinois however, I can't use it on deer, but I do have the scope set for a 200 yd zero.
Recoil is less than my 12 gauge even with my reloads which are near the maximum powder charge for those loads. Shooting off of sandbags and loading a single bullet each time, I was able to put a 7-shot string in an area smaller than the palm of my hand (~2.5 x 3 in.) at 200 yds.
The 4 loads I reload are 60 & 75 gr. HP, 100 gr SPBT, (all Sierra bullets) and a 70 gr SPSX from Hornady. These loads all use Accurate's 2230 powder on a Lee Progressive reloader setup.
These loads in this caliber will let you take everything from prairie dogs and groundhogs up to a good sized deer. You might, might even be able to use the 100 gr. (deer) load on feral hogs, if they aren't too big.
Good luck!

Tough Guns
March 4, 2011, 01:09 AM
My dad has a 30-06 which i fired a couple times but was scared to death "was only 12 or 13". I need to find a decent gun for the $300 range. i have 2 12 gauges but to be honest with you i cant remember them being a harsh kick. i have savage and a H&R. the h&r has a recoil, the savage doesnt. but they dont feel much different or any different. they are both pump action. is that why they dont have much kick?

twofifty
March 4, 2011, 01:10 AM
ToughGun, I am not you so it doesn't matter what I shoot.

I started at the bottom, hunting groundsquirrels and rabbits with a cheapy .22LR, with irons.

When I outshot that, I bought a .22LR bolt-action Anschutz sporter with a target turret scope. It is a full-sized rifle that fits me like a glove and has a great stock, action and trigger.

I took the advice of folk way more experienced than me (hunters and winning competitors) and put over 5000 purposeful off-hand rounds though the .22. For two years, all year round, I practiced several times most weeks and shot metallic silhouette matches.

My highpower shooting has improved greatly as a result. Whenever my HP shooting deteriorates, I reach for my .22LR and find the cure groove:
more follow-through.

I can only pass on the advice I was given.

rocky branch
March 4, 2011, 01:23 AM
Many a youngster fired his first round through an '03 Springfield, Mi Garand, M14, whatever.

The '03 has much more recoil, but the idea is in training for the whole experience.

The range guys used to say the best trainees were ones who never shot anything.

There was some truth to that.

Yoiu are overcomplicating this ad nauseum.

Get the basics down-stance, breath, trigger pull and get on with it.
You'll be surprised how easy and effortless it becomes.
Bad habits can be unlearned.

twofifty
March 4, 2011, 02:02 AM
ToughGun you keep coming back to kick and recoil.
Everyone who has posted here understands what you're fighting.

About kick and recoil:
Shotgun kick and rifle kick are not quite the same. Their powder charges burn at a different rate, which speeds or slows the recoil impulse. The mass and velocities of the ejecta (bullet or pellets) varies [action = reaction].

The firearms don't weigh the same..heavier ones generally seem to kick less. Their stocks are shaped differently..a stock that fits you will transfer less felt recoil to your body - a poorly fitting stock will beat you up. Some rifles have better recoil pads.

One thing is universal though: The heavier and faster the bullet, the more recoil. A magnum cartridge will produce less felt recoil in a heavy rifle, and much more felt recoil in a lightweight one.

Here's how I understand it and how it feels to me - others may disagree:

- Smaller calibers (.224"; .243"; .257"; .264") generally produce good speed and less recoil, except for the super-fast magnum versions.
Good flat-shooting deer and varmint calibers like the 243Win and 250 Savage fall in this category and would suit your needs.

- Next up, .277" and 7mm (.284") generally produce noticeably more recoil, with the magnum versions being worse. The 7mm-08 is a good deer choice for you in this league.

- Most 30 calibers (.308") produce even more recoil, but as you have experienced the slower ones like the 30-30 are easy shooters. The .30-06 that pounded you 4 years ago, a very popular and able cartridge, is nonetheless generally considered to be at the limits for full-sized experienced shooters. The .308Win cartridge recoils almost as hard as the .30-06. You will also notice that lots of very heavy magnum and short magnum cartridges are hyped in 30 caliber.

- As a general rule, 32 caliber & up cartridges are heavy recoiling specialty items that fire heavy bullets (+200 grains).
For example the .338WinMag, the .35 Whelen, the .375H&H. But there are some comparatively mild shooting 'big-bore' cartridges in the bunch: the .32Special; the 35 Remington. These are oddballs and not always easily found.

Conclusion:
You have shown that recoil is your enemy, that flinching is an issue.
Why not pick the lightest effective caliber that will more than suit your stated purposes?

- Many on this thread agree the .243 Winchester is a very able hard-hitting cartridge for deer and similar-sized game.
- With lighter bullets, the 243 is a death-ray on varmints, even 400 yard coyotes.
- It is great fun at the range and puts you at an advantage against guys shooting heavy recoiling calibers.
- You could even easily reload your very own custom 243 cartridges and save a few $.

Suggest you take a close look at the Savage Axis rifle/scope package in .243Win and see if the stock fits you.

Gromky
March 4, 2011, 04:02 AM
I agree with above, a ton of dry firing is good. A ton of live fire may be better. Use a scope with good eye relief, it will scare you a hell of a lot less if the scope is 4" away.

Not every rifle recoils the same. A heavy .300 Win Mag may abuse your shoulder as much as a lightweight, straight stocked .30-30.

As people said, it's all about anticipation. I've mentioned this before, but for me it was muzzle flash and noise that scared me more than recoil. I was afraid of the flash, and had to work through it. There's no easy way to do it, other than doing the same thing over and over. Flinching is incredibly common.

txhoghunter
March 4, 2011, 08:02 AM
My thought: You can handle the .223 and .243 without problems.

For the 7mm and .30-06, throw a limbsaver on and you will be perfectly happy

TX1911fan
March 4, 2011, 01:58 PM
Go .308 for your big game cartridge. It's great and very low recoil. Accurate and plenty of bullet sizes for whatever you are hunting.

.223 is a great cartridge as well. Get both.

ShootersWarehouse
March 4, 2011, 02:20 PM
223 rem. has very little recoil, especially if you are shooting AR style weapon. 243 also has very manageable recoil. Anything from 308 and down is pretty easy. With the large and magnum calibers you can always have a gunsmith put on a muzzle brake. I had a 7mm mag with a KDF muzzle brake and it reduced the recoil down to about the same recoil as my 243. The disadvantage to a muzzle brake is it gets load. Your friends at the range will not like you. But it really helps with recoil and muzzle jump. Vais also make a really nice brake. Also, put on a limb saver recoil pad. They really work.
www.shooterswarehouse.com

oneounceload
March 4, 2011, 03:57 PM
About kick and recoil:
Shotgun kick and rifle kick are not quite the same. Their powder charges burn at a different rate, which speeds or slows the recoil impulse. The mass and velocities of the ejecta (bullet or pellets) varies [action = reaction].

The firearms don't weigh the same..heavier ones generally seem to kick less. Their stocks are shaped differently..a stock that fits you will transfer less felt recoil to your body - a poorly fitting stock will beat you up. Some rifles have better recoil pads.


heavier guns in the same cartridge WILL have less ACTUAL recoil. Stock fit will determine if they have less FELT, or PERCEIVED, recoil

The lightest load in the heaviest gun will have the least recoil.

You can calculate your shotgun recoil here:

http://10xshooters.com/calculators/Shotgun_Recoil_Calculator.htm

and your rifle recoil here:

http://www.10xshooters.com/calculators/Rifle_Recoil_Calculator.htm

Determine which is the lightest and go accordingly

kayak-man
March 4, 2011, 06:38 PM
Ok, I was kind of the same way. I went from shooting a .22 rifle to 12 guage. It wasn't too bad, but it left me pretty sore. I also started shooting handguns on whatever my dad owned at the time, which meant easily concealed guns. I didn't have too much issue with a Bursa 380, but the airweight J-Frame, that was a bit too much gun for me.

What I found helpfull was push ups. Lots of pushups. Your millage may vary, but I found the more muscle I built up, the less percieved recoil there was. I'm not suggesting you're weak, or out of shape, just saying that paying a little more attention to that aspect of your work out might be helpful. Also, it wouldn't be a bad idea to go to Walmart and pick up a pair of grip strengtheners for aobut $5, jsut incase you ever start shooting handguns, and hey, it can't hurt, right?

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson

Gromky
March 5, 2011, 03:07 AM
What I found helpfull was push ups. Lots of pushups. Your millage may vary, but I found the more muscle I built up, the less percieved recoil there was. I'm not suggesting you're weak, or out of shape, just saying that paying a little more attention to that aspect of your work out might be helpful.

Pushups will build muscle right in front of your scapula. So yes, pushups or other upper body exercises may really helpwith recoil. I wouldn't say working out will directly fix recoil, but you've mentioned one way to make it less painful.

Fleetman
March 5, 2011, 10:11 AM
People that get their yucks by handing an inexperienced shooter a hard-kicker should be horsewhipped. There's not much that will turn a novice off quicker than to be "bullied" by a firearm.

A while back there was a tv show on, can't remember the name of it but I think it was some kind of Alaska series, and a novice shooter was scoped by a .338 Mag. The rifle was handed to him by their "guide" and you could tell trouble was brewing even before the shot simply by the way he had it shouldered.

northark147
March 6, 2011, 11:00 AM
I got my first scope eye when I was in 2nd grade from a 30-06. For the longest time I stayed away from scopes, always kinda enjoyed a good kick, guess I'm sadistic that way. I cant say for sure if it was that i never stopped shooting and put many rounds down range with irons, or if I finally just went back to scopes out of sheer determination to be able to see well enough to shoot groups at long ranges, but I have no problems with scopes now. But I ca pretty much say with enough shootin and determination your problem will go away. I dont flinch anymore until after my shoulder starts hurting bad. lol

BigN
March 6, 2011, 11:27 AM
I've never personally had scope eye because I prefer the smaller, hotter centerfires with less recoil but a buddy of mine did while coyote shooting one day. He thought the coyotes got him because his eye was full of blood and it was streaming down his face. I told him he deserved it for shooting coyotes with a 300 win mag :-)

Bill_Rights
April 18, 2011, 01:26 AM
I think jiminhobesound is on the right track: Consider how you grip a gun. I grew up with side by side shotguns, lever and bolt action rifles. I was taught to grip the forend of the guns and later developed my own method of pushing with the forend gun and to pull in the gun at the butt end of the gun. I believe this technique served me well in firing some pretty potent guns.I was wondering if you all think (Jim &) I am on the right track based upon this experience:

I recently gave myself a minor case of "scope eye" with a commonplace factory .308 Win round out of a 5.5 lb bolt rifle with a scope with 3-3/4" eye relief. I was using a pair of short shooting sticks and a very relaxed grip and shouldering of the butt. Jim's push-pull grip would have taken up the "slack" of the butt in my shoulder pocket so that there would be less rearward travel. In fact, that is what I did on subsequent shots, and it worked. Secondly, my scope cut was only on the top of my eyebrow, meaning that my head posture was too far face-down. The shooting sticks were low, and I couldn't/didn't get my shoulders and neck low enough so that my face would be erect. In other words, I was sighting with my eyeball rolled way up in my head, because my forehead was tilted forward and down. That's bad shooting posture. I was thinking of getting a stock with more drop to force a more heads-up posture. Maybe a better idea, for starters, is a training aid consisting of a couple of strips of black electrician's tape across the lens of my shooting glasses, so that I can only see out of the glasses when my eyeball is rotated straight ahead out of my skull. This would force me to be conscious of finding a posture in which my head was erect, else I couldn't sight through the glasses.

Any comments?

MtnSpur
April 18, 2011, 09:12 AM
Consider how you grip a gun. I grew up with side by side shotguns, lever and bolt action rifles. I was taught to grip the forend of the guns and later developed my own method of pushing with the forend gun and to pull in the gun at the butt end of the gun. I believe this technique served me well in firing some pretty potent guns.

Recoil goes with firearms like peanut butter goes with jelly. That said; took a handgun course some years ago (and I'd already been shooting for quite awhile) and the instructor had a 9mm with a laser grip. He pointed the weapon at a point on the wall and assumed a normal pistol hand wrap with no pressure exerted with either hand and that laser was dancing all over the place. Next he demonstrated the same grip BUT pushing with his strongside hand while pulling with his weak side: The laser stopped dead on target and wobble was minimal. At the range I practiced this technique until I found a comfortable compromise and lo and behold not only were my groupings respectable but my managed recoil was improved. I've since adopted this technique in long gun shooting and found recoil much reduced while still placing a respectable group. Shoot Win 94 30-30, Remingtom 700 Classic in 25-06 and a wide variety of 12ga shutguns without problematic recoil.
Every shooter has their own technique and what works for them might not work for you but certainly a range instructor worth his salt can give you pointers to help that flinch factor subside and eventually disappear. As stated in a previous comment a limbsaver isn't a bad thing to look into either.

Br
April 18, 2011, 01:48 PM
MtnSpur, interesting idea. I'm going to try that as soon as I can. Was thinking of sneaking off to the range for a long 'lunch' anyway. ;)

Lord Palmerston
April 19, 2011, 03:51 PM
How much recoil can you expect from a 45/70 Govt.?

Bill_Rights
April 19, 2011, 11:57 PM
Lord Palmerston,

In view of oneonceload's posting above in this thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7141579&postcount=33), how can you ask: How much recoil can you expect from a 45/70 Govt.? oneonceload gives a link to a calculator page that will give you the recoil: http://www.10xshooters.com/calculators/Rifle_Recoil_Calculator.htm. You need to know the loading data of the 45/70 cartridge and the weight of the rifle, but just plug that in and go!

True, to get a feel for what those recoil numbers mean, you need to compare with other rifle's recoil numbers. Or maybe you have a frame of reference for the recoil numbers already? I have seen written/tabular data for common loadings and rifles elsewhere, but don't have it handy. One of the formulas used is by Lyman, so I am sure that company has background reference data somewhere.

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