[cslinger]

What is a better .223 SD ammo? Light weight fast moving or heavier weights.

For example would mil spec ball ammo such as the Israeli white box etc. be better than say Winchester White Box Varmint loads that are like 45 grains and hollow pointed.

Would the light bullet and hollow point make the bullet more likely to break apart upon contact with a hard surface?

Thanks so much,

Chris

[Nightcrawler]

It depends heavily on bullet construction, but typically a lighter bullet at higher velocity is more likely to break apart upon impact.

[Navy joe]

Well the little light hollowpoints are pretty much going to explode on impact.

Better for what? Assuming an unarmored adversary I would think that the HP would produce a more incapacitating wound. With the ball you have better/deeper penetration which may result in over penetration.

Personally I have all three. White box HP and Win Silver Tip for HP, Plenty of Win 62gr ball and a case of M855 green tip. For mutant zombie bears I also have tracer to set them on fire with. I prefer the Silver Tip and HP as a first choice due to life in a populated area.

[Zak Smith]

The military seems to like the "heavy" .223 when it can use it- the 75gr or 77gr Black Hills or 75gr Hornady TAP. These fragment and/or expand down to like 2000fps, giving an extra 50-70 yards of "effective" range over M193 or M855. Only consider using it if you have a 1-in-8" or faster twist barrel.

-z

[artherd]

Zak- do you have any household type penetration results for the Mk262 Mod 1 (77gr Black Hills BTHP with cannurle) ammo? I have been looking for some for a while now.

It seems like a very good round from a terminall ballistics standpoint, I would just like to see some penetration info for Home Defense type use.

[355sigfan]

I like the heavy hollow and softpoints. Your lighter loads don't go very deep. It can be as shallow as 4 inches with some 40 grian loads. I prefer the 69 grian Federal match load. It averages 12.5 inches and totally come apart.
Pat

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Zak- do you have any household type penetration results for the Mk262 Mod 1 (77gr Black Hills BTHP with cannurle) ammo?

http://www.olyarms.com/gunsite.html
http://www.scottsdalegunclub.com/Questions/BulletPenetration.html

There isn't any 77gr info that I am aware of there; but useful info on bullet penetration in household materials if you haven't already read it.

What is a better .223 SD ammo? Light weight fast moving or heavier weights.

If you haven't already, check out:
http://www.ammo-oracle.com/

For example would mil spec ball ammo such as the Israeli white box etc. be better than say Winchester White Box Varmint loads that are like 45 grains and hollow pointed.

If you are looking at indoors usage, I wouldn't use ball ammo unless ball was an agency specified requirement. Even though 5.56mm military ball ammo will usually fragment with enough velocity, around 15% of the time it will yaw only after 7-8" and can completely exit a target or backstop before it ever yaws and begins to fragment. If it does that, you are going to have a high-velocity round zipping through multiple barriers.

The varmint loads will fragment more reliably; but will also fragment very early - meaning that you may not get enough penetration to reach vital body systems necessary to effect a good stop unless you get the unobstructed, target facing you shot most often seen only on range silhouettes.

Would the light bullet and hollow point make the bullet more likely to break apart upon contact with a hard surface?

Yes; but with the caveats noted above. I've been looking at Black Hills 60gr JSP ammo. It made DocGKRs list of approved 5.56mm SD ammo (http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000440.html) and in my highly informal and unscientific blasting of random expendable household objects seems to penetrate the least. However, I'm still using 68gr OTM at the moment.

[Zak Smith]

Sorry, I don't have the wall-penetration data handy. If there is any, you can probably find it in the Ammunition forum of AR15.com.

In 1-in-9 twist barrels, the 68-69gr loads should be only slightly deficient than the 75-77gr in terms of terminal ballistics.

-z

[benEzra]

_Police Marksman_ had a gelatin/wallboard/etc. test a couple of years ago; IIRC they endorsed 55-gr SP, among others. 40-gr JHP's were (are?) used by many SWAT teams to limit wall penetration, and with over 1200 ft/lb of energy at close range they are not to be sneezed at. Ball ammo would generally not be the best choice in most circumstances because of excessive wall penetration (although, surprisingly, the 62-gr "penetrator" ammunition offered LESS penetration in wallboard than 55-gr FMJ due to fragmentation, but both were probably excessive for HD use).

I believe the 4" penetration figure for 40-grainers is inaccurate; 8" is probably more realistic. (I have the article at home.)

[Zak Smith]

I have a hard time believing the very lightweight bullets will achieve the desired 12" of gel penetration.

-z

[cratz2]

I probably wouldn't use anything intended for varmints as if they are properly designed, they should completely break apart within six inches or so of penetration.

And if you live in anything that resembles an urban area, I personally couldn't recommend FMJs.

If buying off the shelf stuff, I'd probably stick with a soft point (Winchester Power Points) or a non-match intended HP (Remington PowerLokt HPs maybe) and I'd probably stay with 55-65 Gr stuff for human targets. I'm not volunteering to be the target of a 40 Gr varmint bullet, but if my life or that of my family was on the line, I'd much prefer to have a 55-65 Gr SP or HP.

[benEzra]

I have a hard time believing the very lightweight bullets will achieve the desired 12" of gel penetration.
They won't (no one argues that they do, as far as I know). But even deep-penetration advocates do concede hydrostatic effects at velocities of 2700 fps or more, and the 40's are trucking along at ~3600 fps carrying three or four times the kinetic energy of a handgun round.

Certainly if you want penetration, go with a 55-gr or heavier SP, but in most HD scenarios the 40's or 45's would be just fine. (Remember LEO .223 ammo choices must also take into account cover penetration, glass penetration, etc.) Basically, you're trading the risk of the bullets exiting your house against the risk of underpenetration. Evaluate your home layout and choose accordingly.

[Zak Smith]

I have been thinking about HD using an AR15, and these two thoughts stick out:

1. I want a suppressor. I cannot imagine shooting a 16" .223 - possibly with a brake - indoors without hearing protection. I think my ears would bleed if my head didn't explode. Ok, seriously, I would probably be somewhat disoriented from the shock. My compensated AR's are painful to shoot using either earplugs or muffs alone -- I always wear both, when shooting outside at the range.

2. An AR15 upper for 6.8 SPC would deliver superior terminal effects vs. anything in 5.56. We should be able to get these in a few months.

-z

[artherd]

Zak- what about overpenetration with the 100+ grain 6.8SPC bullets? The military, by and large, does not have to worry about overpenetration at all. Infact, isn't their concern usually the opposite (ie, to bust cover) ?

[Nightcrawler]

Infact, isn't their concern usually the opposite (ie, to bust cover) ?

Yes. In fact, in that regard, the fragmentation that 5.56mm ball demonstrates can be a drawback. Cover penetration is more important on the battlefield than expansion or fragmentation.

6.8mm will probably be available in JHP and JSP too, though, which won't pentrate so much.

Still...caution when using rifle rounds indoors.

[Zak Smith]

artherd,

I haven't seen wall penetration data on 6.8 yet. Because it was designed to fragment more reliably at all range than 77gr 5.56, I'd expect it to do well. However, if one is worried especially about overpenetration, I would expect a lightly-contrstructed varmint bullet in .270 could be used.

Since this cartridge will be picked up by LE soon, I expect commercial loads to be designed for this purpose.

-z

[355sigfan]

Personally I believe the 223 is perfect for leo uses as is. The military does in my opinion need a bit more gun sometimes.
Pat

[106rr]

I believe the CHP uses Win 64 gr PP with cannelure. You can buy 64 gr PP or PP+ (coated bullet). These are cheap, effective and easy to get.
Wear hearing protection!
Good Luck

[Bazooka Joe71]

Yes thats right, I'm resurrecting a 3 1/2 year thread for this reason alone:

http://www.ammo-oracle.com/

My question is why didn't any of you guys save yourself a headache and save THR some bandwidth and give me this website when I was about to purchase my first AR 15?


Edit: Oh, and BTW I was thinking about purchasing some SD rds for HD...anything else out there not mentioned that might be better?

[RockyMtnTactical]

Flashback!! :eek:

[Harley Quinn]

Old or new 223s out there can handle the 55 grain ok.
Some of the old twists did not handle the heavy's.

The 55 grain is what I like and stay with. If you want the heavy it is a good one as long as your barrel twist is going to get them turing at the faster rate necessary to make them work down range.

[hags]

Most everything out there is 1:9" or faster with 1:7" gaining more popularity everyday.
Any of these will shoot 55 gr or heavier with the 1:7" good to 80gr.

[Harley Quinn]

Another thing I did not mention was barrel length. The short barrels are not going to get the job done with the heavier ammo IMHO
I notice lots of stats with 24" barrels, regarding the heavies.

http://www.ak-47.net/ammo/ss109.txt

This was written in 88 and is still good information for those that have the older twist.
:scrutiny: