Baton Training?


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Cosmoline
March 5, 2011, 03:22 AM
I've been thinking about getting an Asp baton as an improved thwapper for less-than-lethal defense. Mostly for dogs getting too pushy. I have zero training with these collapsing batons. I've beat things to death with sticks before. That's not my goal here. I want to avoid beating anything to death. I'm assuming there's no bicycle-baton self defense training out there, but what should I look for to get some general idea of how to use these suckers *without* killing someone.

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JShirley
March 5, 2011, 03:26 AM
In general, ASP training is simple, easy to learn, and effective. It is, however, oriented towards law enforcement defensive strikes.

lemaymiami
March 5, 2011, 10:29 AM
Second what Jshirley posted. The ASP training is very useful but does emphasize strikes to shoulders, elbows, and knees.... and other things designed to deter an aggressive human while keeping the user clear of retaliation. Since every one of the police K-9 officers I ever worked with had dog bite scars of one kind or another.... I'd re-think using a baton on a dog unless it was a small one.

Just like using a knife, with a baton you have to get entirely too close...

ColtPythonElite
March 5, 2011, 10:35 AM
Pepper spray would be a better choice for dogs.

hso
March 5, 2011, 10:52 AM
Cosmo,

If you're only intent is to use the baton from a bike then you might save yourself some money and just mount a fixed baton to your bike frame. Also, I'm not aware of any training that focuses on the use of a baton from a bike, but I must assume that there is training for horse mounted police using batons in a riot situation. I guess the strikes would be the high to low diagonal strikes in Escrima with and without follow through since you're attacking down to the dog. Add the punyo hammer strikes for very short distances (probably the critter is latched onto you). I'd also guess those same cavalry saber cuts would be applicable with the addition of the vertical circular cuts. Pretty limited set of strikes/cuts possible from a bike.

If you want to expand to dealing with people you should either get a local LEO to recommend a baton instructor or find an Escrima teacher and work with them. There are a lot of small techniques in baton that build up speed and power beyond the simple "beat sump'n to death" upper body blows delivered with an axe handle. I've found that Escrima focuses on every little bit of technique that converts torque to speed/power from the ground to the tip of the stick. The Japanese and Chinese stick training I've had seemed to leave something out my FMA stick instructors haven't and those other teachers were usually interested in having those FMA small details pointed out.

So the short answer is, find a good local Guro that teaches Escrima.

kali13
March 5, 2011, 12:29 PM
Gonna second Hso's post. Eskrima, Kali, Arnis, what ever you want to call it, Filipino martial arts will give you excellent training in stick-type weapons. Blade and stick is what they do best. Good luck.

MillCreek
March 5, 2011, 01:02 PM
Personal experience has taught me that a frame pump clipped to my downtube is essentially useless against dogs.

Cosmoline
March 5, 2011, 02:13 PM
Thanks! There are many folks from the Philippines around town so I'll look into it.

Pepper spray would be a better choice for dogs.

I'm not a big fan of sprays in general. The wind can be fierce here, and I'd be very concerned about accidentally dosing the dog's owner or myself or just dosing the dog's coat. Also if I try to manipulate the bottle of bear spray with my winter gloves on I'm liable to have troubles.

This isn't for some Schutzhund trained Malinois or enraged pitbull. Fact is the GSD's, Malinois and pitbulls around here seem pretty well controlled and friendly. The owners know that they have to keep their animals under control before they go out. The much bigger problem I've got are with mid-size sucker biters. Untrained, uncontrolled dogs who see me as some kind of game animal and bum rush me. There are some nearby English bulldogs that do it frequently. I've had to ward them off with a walking stick before but I don't have that on the bike. Last time I had to dart across a road in front of traffic to keep my ankle intact. I do not want to blow some dog away, as discharging a firearm in that manner will bring police and the owner down on me. Plus I don't want to do it. These dogs need stern discipline and they're not getting it from the owner. I *suspect* that the mere act of unfurling the baton will send them scrambling back to mama.

Plus I am in need of something for less than lethal situations. Particularly with inebriates and sundry punks who aren't presenting a deadly threat but are nevertheless prone to pawing at people and making threats. Last week for example there was a very drunk man in the passenger side of a truck who was glaring at me. If he'd gotten out and charged me *armed* I had hand on revolver already and could have killed him. But *UNarmed* is another matter. I don't relish the idea of a wrestling match with some drunk maniac. People can get their heads and necks broke that way and whether it's me or him that's not what I want. And again as far as sprays that day there was a brutal north wind. Guess what direction he would have been coming from.

lemaymiami
March 5, 2011, 05:12 PM
In my previous post I focused on baton training without looking at it from another angle.

I've been told, and seen it demonstrated, that one of the best defenses against aggressive dogs is one developed by postal workers. While on foot they can stop any attacking dog with a simple umbrella, the "pop open" type. In use they stand their ground and only pop open the umbrella when the dog is closing in. The sudden opening of something like that will startle most dogs and get them headed the other way. It should be a simple matter to keep a small telescoping umbrella with your bike....

Against drunks, you're on your own...

Fred Fuller
March 5, 2011, 11:23 PM
"While on foot they can stop any attacking dog with a simple umbrella, the "pop open" type."
----------------------------

That's a common element in temperament tests for guardian breed and some other working dogs. Any aggressive response from the dog toward the umbrella operator is restrained by the owner or handler if necessary. TTs take place with the dog on leash and the owner/handler prepared to control the dog's response. With Filas (the breed I'm most familiar with in temperament tests) an aggressive response against what the dog perceives as a threat against its owner/handler is pretty much expected.

lpl
=====

Reaction to Visual Stimulus
Objective: To measure the dog's reaction to a sudden visual stimulus.

Subtest 5: Umbrella
The handler/dog team approaches an assistant sitting in a chair holding a closed umbrella parallel to the ground at a 90 degree angle to the approaching team. When the dog is five feet from the assistant, the umbrella is opened. The handler may encourage the dog to investigate the umbrella only when asked to do so. The handler's focus must be on the umbrella, not on the dog. -- http://www.atts.org/testdesc.html

hso
March 5, 2011, 11:36 PM
I *suspect* that the mere act of unfurling the baton will send them scrambling back to mama.

I'd check with a dog trainer before betting my butt, or ankles, on that. If you're dealing with ankle biters I'd set the encounter to occur on my own terms and conditions of my choosing and use bear spray to "condition" Fido to stay away. Do this a couple of times and you're far more likely to have the dogs view you as a noxious object to be avoided.

Cosmoline
March 6, 2011, 03:26 AM
Well if he doesn't go back then I've got the stick. Spraying towards a person who isn't doing anything more than failing to control her dogs doesn't seem like a very good option to me. Spray that misses the dog and hits the owner means I do jail time and/or get sued. It's a messy tool, too prone to indiscriminate particulate drift. I've got some of course but testing it didn't impress me at all. It's difficult to get the thing into position, difficult to aim and gets on my fingers.

CWL
March 6, 2011, 03:50 AM
Purely dog control?

That is an instance where a CS Sjambok may be useful. If you want to use it while mounted (biking), you may want to cut it down a bit so it'll be easier to wield.

hso
March 6, 2011, 08:23 AM
Cosmo,

Think of it as more of a training tool for the dog than a defensive tool for you. You have to set up the situation to train the dog not to come after you and that means you need to intentionally have it in hand/ready for use on a day that the wind isn't going to be a problem. You might consider it a moving ambush of the dog, but it is just aversion training.

Have you thought about talking to the owner of each of these critters and asking them if they'd help you train the dog not to chase/bite bicyclists?

Also, what sort of "impression" is knocking out the eye of some dog going to make on the owner? You are not going to have a lot of control and you are going to whack Fido in the mellon as you try to avoid them. How does that compare to seasoning the critter with pepper spray?

I'm also not sure that your approach is sound. Wielding a stick while trying to ride a bike sounds like a formula for a crash. You may want to check with some bike forum folks and find out how they deal with chasing dogs. We've had several threads in S&T over the years from riders that were trying to come up with ways to deal with dogs and I remember very experienced riders suggesting dismounting and putting the bike between themselves and the dog and "BAD DOG!"ing the critters instead of trying to shoot/club/spray them while on their two wheeled conveyance.

MillCreek
March 6, 2011, 09:26 AM
We've had several threads in S&T over the years from riders that were trying to come up with ways to deal with dogs and I remember very experienced riders suggesting dismounting and putting the bike between themselves and the dog and "BAD DOG!"ing the critters instead of trying to shoot/club/spray them while on their two wheeled conveyance.


This is what I do if I cannot outrun them on the bicycle. Trying to manipulate and use spray, a stick or other object while pedaling can be difficult depending on the terrain. Another idea is to use a small spray bottle (set to stream) filled with vinegar or diluted ammonia.

Harley Quinn
March 6, 2011, 02:56 PM
Have to remember the sticks are considered felony possession as a rule:what:Especially with all the gang activity, using them or bats:eek:

Cane is legal though:)

Cosmoline
March 6, 2011, 03:06 PM
Have to remember the sticks are considered felony possession as a rule

What rule? You're not allowed to conceal batons in this town, but that's a misdemeanor and I'm not going to be concealing it.

Another idea is to use a small spray bottle (set to stream) filled with vinegar or diluted ammonia.

The key word being DILUTED. If you don't dilute it enough you have created a very, very nasty chemical weapon that can blind any eye it hits. No way am I going to do that. No way. For the same reason I don't make pipe bombs. Also, liquids + Alaska= frozen and useless. If it's diluted enough to be safe, it's probably going to be an ice cube.

putting the bike between themselves and the dog and "BAD DOG!"ing the critters instead of trying to shoot/club/spray them while on their two wheeled conveyance.

That's a sound strategy, and one I have used. But in some situations it's not practical to stop and dismount without some additional means of protection. Esp. with multiple dogs from multiple directions. I've had good results with the walking stick while warding off the more pushy hunds, but I have no stick on the bike.

Here's a scenario based on recent events. Multiple bulldogs acting aggressive emerge from around a shed while I'm on an ally approaching a main road. The ground is very, very icy and the wind intense from the north. The dog's owner is calling them back and, being bulldogs, they totally ignore her. As it was I saw a gap in traffic and just went across, in violation of traffic laws of course but what the hey. But had there been no gap, what then? I can dismount, but dogs are on both sides. I have no walking stick to push off aggressive bulls. I'm left to either kick one, which given my size could seriously hurt the animal. And/or end up with my foot being chewed upon. Or I can shoot it, which is a huge can of trouble and I like dogs. I even like these dogs. I could also use the bike as a weapon, which given the fearsome ice studs on it plus the weight of rider and bike will crush the dog. But it will probably also drop me to the ground, and that's not good. If I have the asp, I can at least have that to push them off or thwap a nose. Plus I can wield one with my big gloves on, which is a major advantage here. So that's my line of thought on this problem. Not as a cure-all, but as a gap filler.

Harley Quinn
March 6, 2011, 04:34 PM
I am a little punchy about the laws in CA, did not notice you are in AL:uhoh:
You are right about caustic liquid, would chose something ok to carry anyday..

Have to remember the sticks are considered felony possession as a rule
****
What rule? You're not allowed to conceal batons in this town, but that's a misdemeanor and I'm not going to be concealing it.

hso
March 6, 2011, 07:12 PM
Vinegar is not "caustic" nor will it produce permanent blindness or harm.

Cosmo,

Listen to me on this, a stick is far more likely to permanently injure a dog than commercial sprays or 1 to 1 solutions of ammonia. In my opinion, your concern over using them is out of proportion to the problem. You should have a serious talk with any bike cops and postal delivery route walkers, assuming these exist in your part of Alaska.

I'm all for you getting training from a good Guro in FMA, but dealing with dogs without injuring them isn't going to be easy with a stick.

BTW, you need to mix a little propylene glycol in with the ammonia if you don't want itu to freeze.

Cosmoline
March 6, 2011, 11:39 PM
It would need to be upwards of 40% around here, but in any event I am NOT open to chemistry experiments. No way, not ever.

What is it about a baton that makes it that dangerous? I have already used sticks to ward off dogs and they work really well, without injuring either one of us. Is the problem that you can't prod with it, you have to strike?

Remo223
March 6, 2011, 11:49 PM
I think there are laws against carrying a baton. Maybe not in alaska though. Probably the best defense against a dog is a dog...course then you gotta consider your dog expendable. But your dog will keep the dog busy until you can make your move...either fight or flight.

hso
March 6, 2011, 11:50 PM
Look, you're a lawyer, you understand that a stick is capable of lethal force even if you choose to use it in a less than lethal capacity and you say you've beaten things to death so there's no illusion about the lethal potential of a stick and you understand the potential social/legal consequences if you permanently injure or kill a dog that is too persistent in its attack or that is actually vicious. You don't have to want to knock an eye out to do so using a stick with a moving dog, especially if you're trying to do it from a moving bike.

I frankly have no problem with dispatching a dog that attacks, but I'd like to avoid the complications of dealing with "Fluffy's" owner who wasn't responsible enough to control their closet Cudgo. I see a stick as a defense in depth approach to work with the gun and chemical spray. Spray for the dogs that are just chasing, stick for the ones that are pursuing, gun for attacking.

Let us know about finding a Guro and school to train at. We'd like to know what your impressions are of FMA after a few weeks of training.

Cosmoline
March 7, 2011, 12:05 AM
I think we're on the same page. I'm not planning any bike polo with the beast ;-) This is for tight pinches, more as a prod to keep them at bay than a full-on skull smasher.

hso
March 7, 2011, 12:30 AM
Be careful about expandable batons being used as prods. While unlikely they do expand and, conversely, collapse. Collapsing at the least opportune moment could be inconvenient.

Also, get the longest baton you can purchase if you're going to hold Cugo at bay by poking him. Get the shiny one as well.

PTK
March 7, 2011, 11:30 AM
Agreed. A 31" ASP that is either chromed or electroless nickel coated is the way to go. You do NOT want to deal with a short stick or a rusted hunk of metal that doesn't open when you need it. :eek:

Harley Quinn
March 7, 2011, 11:31 AM
Again think canes...If into a stick of sorts;)

I am into FMA and have been for many years...Cane is the answer imho...
Canemasters have a good website and loads of material...

http://www.canemasters.com/

In the area you are in/at, making one from a tree would be very easy:)

The various sprays that are available are an easy route also...

Bear spray in your neck of the woods is the answer...
http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/bear-spray.htm

Regards

MillCreek
March 8, 2011, 09:39 PM
The key word being DILUTED. If you don't dilute it enough you have created a very, very nasty chemical weapon that can blind any eye it hits. No way am I going to do that. No way. For the same reason I don't make pipe bombs.

Since I was originally trained as a chemist, I experiment all the time. The recommended ammonia dilution is one part of household ammonia to ten parts of water. Please note that household ammonia is generally 5-10% ammonia. The smell of ammonia is generally distasteful to dogs, and this sort of diluted spray is commonly recommended as a dog deterrent in the bicycling, dog-training and running communities.

glistam
March 9, 2011, 12:31 PM
I think we're on the same page. I'm not planning any bike polo with the beast ;-) This is for tight pinches, more as a prod to keep them at bay than a full-on skull smasher.

In that case perhaps consider a Monadnock baton. They are button-lock so they can be used as a prod if deployed correctly.

Smokey Joe
March 9, 2011, 01:28 PM
I've had an unfortunately large amount of experience dealing with dogs both as a runner and as a cyclist.

As a cyclist I used to just kick the dog, and that worked, fine (the dog never expects you to fight back in any way!) as a deterrent to further agression. And I never fell off my bike doing it, or such. But I always disliked actually injuring the beast--as has been pointed out, it's the owner's fault, not the dog's, that the dog is out in the street chasing you.

Anyhow, after shutting a German Shepherd's mouth on his tongue, with my heel, one time, with a kick from aboard my bicycle, I decided that the chemical spray was more humane. Began carrying that.

As to wind, the chem. spray comes out in a solid stream which is good for 10-12 feet on a still day, and with a brand-new can. After several years of carry, that range gets cut in half, at which point I retire the can and buy a new one. The dog is always close enough to me on the bicycle that wind would not be a factor--you just hose down his whole face anyhow. I've had errant small amounts of spray hit another rider, who reported that it was very hot and uncomfortable in his eye/mouth, but bearable. And the effects are gone after several hours, even with no treatment.

I generally hold the spray can with my fingers, and press the button with my thumb. The cans are set up so you can tell by feel which way the spray is pointed.

As to effectiveness: I have stopped a Doberman pinscher in full-out attack mode, coming at me while running on the street. (Scary sight!) Waited until he was abt. 8 feet away, hosed down his face, and he suddenly remembered he had an appointment elsewhere.

I have also held off 3 black Labrador retrievers, and a standard poodle, all at the same time, while on my bicycle. Hosed down each of the Labs in turn--One of them couldn't believe how bad it was, and came back to try again. The second time, he believed. Never got to squirt at the poodle--when the poodle saw how the Labs were faring, he hung back--smart dog! All the while the dogs' owner was standing in the road yelling at me.

Bottom line: I have experience with this. The dog spray DOES WORK, and IMHO, it is far more humane than hitting the dog. It doesn't do permanent damage to dogs or humans.

Cosmoline
March 9, 2011, 01:51 PM
What's the brand of spray you're using? If it's truly non-toxic I'm not against using it, though I still want something to prod the hund.

Also, do you know the freeze point of the stuff?

In that case perhaps consider a Monadnock baton.

Thank you! That looks ideal. Just ordered one from Midway.

Remo223
March 9, 2011, 02:11 PM
Smokey Joe:

You might have convinced me to try something like that. I always used the kick method on bicycles. Normally you don't need to actually kick them, just kick the air near their face and they get the message. But some dogs will only become more aggressive if you do this so you better make contact right away or your plan will backfire. You gotta read the dog and make a decision.

I disagree that it is the owner's fault. some dogs just chase cars. It's in their blood. I believe it has something to do with the sound made by a spinning wheel. they always go after the tires. Normally this is only dangerous to the dog, but with bicycles, there is a serious potential injury to the cyclist.

I'll tell ya when the kick method isn't so good. Motorcycles. There used to be a large rotweiller (sp?) that would actually bite tires near me. I'm sure he's run over and killed by now. But he came after my front tire while riding a harley and I let him have it. I was not about to let a dumb dog dump my shiny harley on a gravel road. What I didn't think about was that I was doing 35-40 mph. The dog went tumbling, I almost got pulled off my harley, and my ankle was seriously dislocated.

Smokey Joe
March 9, 2011, 02:22 PM
Cosmoline--The brand of spray I currently use is called "Halt!" It is available, around here @ any rate, at most local bicycle shops.

Local cyclists are in pretty general agreement that it works, and works well.

No experience with Halt! freezing--haven't used it in the winter.

Remo 223--That's what is known as a Pyrrhic victory.

hso
March 9, 2011, 03:15 PM
http://cspoutdoors.com/hadogresp.html

http://www.halt.com/halt.html

BTW, if you select a spray that produces a stream instead of a spray or fog you're unlikely to have problems with overspray or drift.

BTW again, which Monadnock did you order? Remember if certification is required for legal carry in Alaska you will either need a general baton instructor to issue a certificate or a Monadnock instructor instead of an ASP instructor. States laws on legal carry of batons sometimes requires specific certification on the brand or a general certification (weird laws like with knives).

Cosmoline
March 9, 2011, 04:49 PM
State law doesn't seem to care, though the Muni has an old anti-blackjack law against carrying any club concealed. This will not be concealed. Weird to be in a state that lets you carry, without a permit, a .454 but bans possession of brass knuckles. I think some of the provisions are holdovers from the days when Alaska was full of pool sharks and mob enforcers.

Cosmoline
April 1, 2011, 05:37 PM
Just an update, I picked up a long heavy Monadnock. I have rigged it to clip, unconcealed, to any stiff belt or strap. Should work well.

On training, I did a search and came up with this:

http://www.alaskabaton.com/

Which I don't think is *QUITE* what I'm after. I mean it would confuse the dogs and bad guys, I'm sure. But it wouldn't be of much practical help.

Flintknapper
April 1, 2011, 07:44 PM
Just carry a cat with you.

Dog approaches, dump the cat....problem solved. ;)

carpettbaggerr
June 7, 2011, 04:57 PM
Cosmo- if it's just a few specific neighborhood dogs that you sort of like, I'd pay a visit off the bike with some doggie treats. Talk to the owner and make nice with the dogs. Then keep some treats in your pocket.


For other more general dogs I'd keep a stream-type OC spray and use it after dismounting. Keep the bike between you and the dogs.


But it sounds kind of like you just want to carry a stick on your bike. Just mount a nice hardwood stick like it's a bikepump -- I'd worry about the ASP freezing or sticking in the cold.

A search for "hapkido cane" has lots of interesting results,but nothing specific about bikes or dogs....

Cosmoline
June 13, 2013, 04:54 PM
This is an old thread but I thought I might give an update. I ended up using an ASP mounted on the handlebars in a taped-on baton holster. It stays put pretty well. I have not been using it as a traditional baton, but rather practicing whipping it out and holding it down at calf-level behind my leg. I've deployed it a few times in this manner when dogs charge. Thankfully none have kept pursuit after that. The action and sound of it seems to shake them out of thinking I'm a happy meal. The idea is not to beat the dog with it but put a piece of steel between my flesh and his fangs. So far, it's working OK. Though for this purpose the design might be a bit different for blocking rather than striking. A genuine attack dog would just nail my arm or wrist but those beasts are rare and rarely unsupervised. Most of the culprits are going for a sucker bite on meat.

Verdict--Better than nothing and easier to manipulate while riding than spray. But not exactly the right tool for the job.

Deltaboy
June 15, 2013, 09:55 PM
My vote is for a CS Shambok.

Cosmoline
June 20, 2013, 02:11 PM
It's a great idea but a bit on the long side. I wish they made a collapsing sjambok.

MillCreek
June 23, 2013, 04:04 PM
A fellow bicyclist cut down a cheap fiberglass fishing rod for this very purpose. I would estimate it is about two feet long.

Deltaboy
June 23, 2013, 07:09 PM
A cut down broken fiberglass fishing rod would work good.

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