So, I work at a gunstore and...


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Lakedaemonian
March 6, 2011, 01:42 AM
So I work at a gunstore and I am SICK of Morons waving guns in my face!! Whoa! I am a Veteran, and that is quick way to make me very angry.

P.S. Im talking about a negligent muzzle sweep. Nobody is holding up the gunstore or anything.

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LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
March 6, 2011, 01:46 AM
Some people are just ignorant of gun safety. It's probably because they never attended a hunter's safety course.

Wood Man
March 6, 2011, 01:57 AM
I hear you there. I've been in my local gun shop more than once and had a muzzlesweep across my face. Iritates me more than a little. I mean some things are just common sense, shouldn't have to "take a coarse" to know better. I mean com'on people...... People like that are the ones that give gun owners a bad name.

Lakedaemonian
March 6, 2011, 02:06 AM
It irritates me because I feel powerless. Im not in the Military anymore. I cant slap them and scream at them for being stupid. I need to be tactful or I loose my job... FML

dec41971
March 6, 2011, 02:08 AM
I hear ya. Once saw some guy at the local range counter pulling the trigger on a gun that was pointing at other customers. He got cursed out by one guy, I actually thought it was so funny he got offended. Then he proceeded to say its a new gun from the counter, obviously unloaded, but sorry it was unintentional. The store staff took the gun away showed him out of the range and customers clapped. Pretty funny and stupid of him at the same. But I guess this kind of thing happens a lot.

TechBrute
March 6, 2011, 02:12 AM
I've had plenty of gun shop employees muzzle sweep me. Being unsafe knows no side of the counter.

Lakedaemonian
March 6, 2011, 02:28 AM
Its just culture shock I guess. In the places I've been, a gun pointed at you = weapons hot, clear to engage. I suppose that would be a good point to bring up next time it happens.

I've had plenty of gun shop employees muzzle sweep me. Being unsafe knows no side of the counter.


P.S. Ya, I can understand that. Put yourself in my shoes though. Every effin yahoo that thinks they know a thing or two about a gun comes into the store and starts cold drawing a gun like there a damn spec ops ninja. I end up having a gun in my face probably two maybe three times a day. You, as a patron of a gun store, maybe once in a blue moon; you run into an undiciplined gun store employee.

Bubba613
March 6, 2011, 05:10 AM
So I work at a gunstore and I am SICK of Morons waving guns in my face!!
You either need to get used to it or find yourself another job. That is a regular occurrence. If it is a store gun, of course you have checked it before handing it to the customer. If it is the customer's gun, of course you have checked it when they bring it out.
But you aren't going to change bad gun handling skills as a store clerk. Sorry.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
March 6, 2011, 07:43 AM
Whenever I handle a gun, I am even cautious of where people are in my own house. If my wife is upstairs, the gun is downstairs with the muzzle down. If she is in one end the gun is pointed toward an outside wall which faces woods, even though the gun I am referring to is not chambered, It does have a full magazine in it and the gun is on safe.

I, too, have had people point guns at me. Nothing more maddening than turning around only to be looking down some guy's barrel three benches down.

I don't care if it is loaded or not, I am frightened like it is loaded, I don't feel like getting shot.:mad: Of course, the gun that is EMPTY is always the one that seems to be able to go off on its own and kill someone.

McCall911
March 6, 2011, 08:27 AM
I guess that'll keep on happening occasionally until everyone, on either side of the counter, takes basic gun safety. And I don't see that happening anytime soon, unless someone wants to legislate gun safety courses before one is allowed to own a firearm. And, of course, this will require some kind of certification, which would undoubtedly come through the government.
Are we ready for that?

Creature
March 6, 2011, 08:39 AM
So I work at a gunstore and I am SICK of Morons waving guns in my face!!

You could always try spending time in a cubicle under the 60hz hum of fluorescent lights with a swingline stapler.

ultradoc
March 6, 2011, 08:43 AM
I am very carefull not to point a gun in an unsafe direction. Even at gun shown I point it in a safe direction. And I allways make sure it's unloaded. New or not

earlthegoat2
March 6, 2011, 09:23 AM
You need to find another job. Get used to it. This is why you check the gun before you give it to the customer.

I suppose it is also unsafe to check the rifling on a revolver by looking down the muzzle with the cylinder opened.

There are practical limits to gun safety folks. I am always the one who has to say this because everyone else is too afraid to. Safety is good but sensible safety is better.

Mr.Davis
March 6, 2011, 09:33 AM
You need to find another job. Get used to it. This is why you check the gun before you give it to the customer.

I suppose it is also unsafe to check the rifling on a revolver by looking down the muzzle with the cylinder opened.

There are practical limits to gun safety folks. I am always the one who has to say this because everyone else is too afraid to. Safety is good but sensible safety is better.

I suppose you're okay with me dry firing one of my pistols in your direction then, right? Don't worry, I cleared it first.

I recognize that if you imagine a laser beam coming out of the barrel of a gunship pistol, it's basically impossible to get it out of the case and into the customer's hands without sweeping someone. That doesn't mean that we should accept a customer (or employee) casually pointing that gun in the direction of other people.

I've been swept by more clerks than customers, personally. Either way it's an uncomfortable feeling to have a gun pointed my way, and it should be discouraged.

Perhaps a quick "Please be careful to keep the gun pointed in a safe direction" while handing it over would prevent some of this carelessness.

Sport45
March 6, 2011, 09:36 AM
You'd think it would go without saying, but I think a bold sign behind the counter or at the entrance stating that guns (empty or not) should never be pointed at anyone would go a long way toward stopping this behavior.

I've never seen such a sign at any firearms counter or gun store I've been at.

earlthegoat2
March 6, 2011, 09:37 AM
It looks like we are starting to get it now.

btg3
March 6, 2011, 10:44 AM
Local gunshop here has a range. To use the range, you first have to watch video of safety rules/policies. And they give a verbal quiz to verify you paid attention to the video.

Based on this precaution for range customers, why not take precautions with counter customers. In other words, before they are allowed to begin handling firearms, at least verify they have had some exposure to the 4 rules -- such as reading the sign behind the counter that Sport45 mentions in post #15.

AlexanderA
March 6, 2011, 10:50 AM
Getting swept by a muzzle is unacceptable no matter who you are. It should not be a risk "that comes with the territory" even if you are a clerk in a gun store. If people speak up when this happens, maybe we'll see more awareness of the problem.

BTW, this "muzzle unawareness" is very common at gun shows. That's one of many reasons why I hesitate to go to gun shows any more, unless I have something very specific that I'm looking for.

DammitBoy
March 6, 2011, 10:55 AM
You'd think it would go without saying, but I think a bold sign behind the counter or at the entrance stating that guns (empty or not) should never be pointed at anyone would go a long way toward stopping this behavior.

I've never seen such a sign at any firearms counter or gun store I've been at.

This.

I've never seen that sign either, which one would think would be helpful for the noobs on both sides of the counter.

defjon
March 6, 2011, 10:57 AM
Huh. At the gunstores here in IL, they demonstrate a cleared chamber in front of me.

I think a gun store is a little different then a range, though I'd always make sure its unloaded.

But like Earl said, I am often bringing my little bore light with me. And I am looking down the muzzle to check how bright the rifling is on old revolvers. Often with worn finish, but great rifling. I am also checking the lock up, which means the trigger is pulled.

Hm. I realize though that I am never pointing anything even at eye level with anyone. I am always checking sights, how it points, lock up keeping the gun leveled safely down at the floor beside me nowhere near employees or customers...

kingpin008
March 6, 2011, 11:15 AM
At the shop I frequent, if you demonstrate unsafe muzzle discipline you're asked (in a very firm but polite tone) to be more careful. If you do it again, the muzzle will be physically redirected by the clerk, and you'll be told "watch that muzzle. This is your last chance." Depending on your attitude after the second warning (or if you do it again) you'll be asked to leave.

Generally, folks get the hint after the first or second warning.

Rancho Relaxo
March 6, 2011, 11:17 AM
I too point the pistol at the floor to get an idea of trigger pull and feel, sights and overall feel. I always think it's an odd way to do it (though the most safe looking) because I really hope that I don't spend most of my time shooting a pistol at something three feet in front of me at ground level!

If I had a gunstore I would install a 2' pipe that you could use to dry fire, check sights etc and be in no danger of accidental muzzle sweep. Since I am not a gun shop owner, I'd be willing to sell my design plans :D

Leaky Waders
March 6, 2011, 11:25 AM
If it were such a problem it seems that gun shops would have a formal 'handling area' on the edge of the counter where one could stand behind a line and have a target to point at, dry fire rack the slide at say blam blam dakka dakka or whatever.

Personally, the shops that I frequent display very safe gun handling.

JoeMal
March 6, 2011, 11:29 AM
I've had plenty of gun shop employees muzzle sweep me. Being unsafe knows no side of the counter. Thank you! I've been swept by more gun shop employees than I have paying customers like myself

Arkansas Paul
March 6, 2011, 11:35 AM
I've had plenty of gun shop employees muzzle sweep me.


I have too, and I don't like it any more than when anyone else does it.

earlthegoat2
March 6, 2011, 11:37 AM
:rolleyes:

JTH
March 6, 2011, 11:46 AM
Gun shows are really bad. I start ducking and will say hey learn some basic gun safety. It gets so crowded at some shows, it's almost impossibe for it not to happen. I leave it at that.
JT

mdauben
March 6, 2011, 11:54 AM
I have had the same thing happen to me as a customer, with both other customers or occasionaly even store employees "sweeping" me.

I do agree with some others that gun shows seem to be the worst. I had proper gun safety drummed into me both at home at at Boy Scout camps when I was still in grade school. The first gun show I ever went to a few years ago, I had to keep stopping myself from diving for cover every time some moron would pick up an old rifle or shotgun and sweep the crowd with it before even checking the chamber (assuming he did at all).

Idiots. :cuss:

azyogi
March 6, 2011, 12:13 PM
There's a TV show about a gunsmith shop that the daughter of the owner swept a shop clerk with a Walker. :rolleyes: Could just be the way it was cut , but she also swept the cameraman. You'd think the manager of a shop that builds class III's would know better.

Double Naught Spy
March 6, 2011, 12:44 PM
Its just culture shock I guess. In the places I've been, a gun pointed at you = weapons hot, clear to engage. .

I bet that was tough. I have seen numerous videos showing US forces sweeping one another in various circumstances.

If you can't adjust to the job, then maybe you need employment elsewhere. Many of those "morons" were just like you or your fellow soldiers before training. It doesn't make them morons, just ignorant of current safety standards. There are a few morons, no doubt, and you probably don't want them in your store at all if you are truly concerned about safety.

Of course the rest of us who know the standard US safety rules know that they were codified by Col. Cooper in a book entitled The Modern Technique of the Pistol. We all know that Jeff Cooper is a huge icon in much of the gun world and that some of his teachings, especially the gun safety rules are dogma. So it would be reasonable to expect that Cooper, whilst living, would be the living embodiment of his safety rules. Turns out, such an expectation would be very naive and that Cooper really didn't practice what he preached. Here is their recapitulation. Note that in Rule 1, Cooper says there are no exceptions.

Here is Jeff Cooper violating his own safety rules ....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKgAkwB8WRo

How many violations do you see?

Rule I? Is Cooper handling the gun as if it was loaded? Does it appear that he is engaged in partial compliance? Would it bother you to see a person handling a loaded gun in that manner? Remember that accordng to Cooper in regard to Rule I, There are no exceptions. So what part of "no" doesn't he understand?

Rule II? With the opening scene of Cooper, he draws his 1911 and covers his leg in the process. Later when he reholsters, he covers his leg again.

Rule III? Does Cooper keep his finger off the trigger until his sights are on target? Nope.

Rule IV? His target seems to be the ceiling, walls, and back of the classroom.

Check out Jeff pointing his pistol over the berm and covering his leg as he reholsters. There is a very clear closeup of him covering his own leg as he reholsters at 2:44...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ci3uPXj6Dpo&feature=related

From the examples in these two videos, you can see that when Cooper reholsters his gun each time, to find the mouth of the holster, he cants the muzzle of his gun toward himself. He does it repeatedly and consistently.

Getting swept by a muzzle is unacceptable no matter who you are. It should not be a risk "that comes with the territory" even if you are a clerk in a gun store. If people speak up when this happens, maybe we'll see more awareness of the problem.

BTW, this "muzzle unawareness" is very common at gun shows. That's one of many reasons why I hesitate to go to gun shows any more, unless I have something very specific that I'm looking for.

It is very difficult to handle a firearm at a gun show without sweeping people. That is the nature of the layout and compactness of gun shows. If the show is busy, you just about can't raise the muzzle of any gun above floor level and even then with the gun pointed at the floor, there is a violation of the gun safety rules because with the floor as your target and backstop, "beyond" is any direction of the ricochet and that direction will undoubtedly include people.

I have yet to see a single vendor provide bullet traps for which for which gun shoppers can aim guns when held in normal firing positions, such as properly shouldered rifles.

It has been my impression based on news articles that in gun shops a large percentage of the NDs are by the employees of the shop. The same goes for gun shows. It is the vendors that frequently screw up and get people hurt.

Hanzo581
March 6, 2011, 12:50 PM
You probably should not work with the general public if you have such high expectations of their competency.

jjjjeremy
March 6, 2011, 01:07 PM
This thread reminds me of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIpLd0WQKCY) scene from the Simpsons.

I'm a bit of a freak/paranoid when it comes to gun safety. For my psychological well being, I have to reassure myself visually and physically at least three times that my rifle is unloaded and the bolt is out before I look down the muzzle after cleaning. And even then, I'm still extremely nervous.

Because of my paranoia, I can't stand it when someone hands me a gun that isn't open. This often happens at gun shops. I'm guessing that's because the employee assumes that I'm not familiar with the action. Knowing how to close a semi-auto rarely comes naturally.

Lakedaemonian
March 6, 2011, 01:45 PM
You'd think it would go without saying, but I think a bold sign behind the counter or at the entrance stating that guns (empty or not) should never be pointed at anyone would go a long way toward stopping this behavior.


A sign would be great if everybody actually read them. We have a sign on the front door that askes people not to bring loaded firearms in. Nevertheless, constantly people pull out a hot weapon and say "Hey I need a holster for this."

(I Know that they are loaded, because every time I ask them to check and make sure their weapon is unloaded before I proceed to help them find a holster. Then "ploop" out pops a round from the chamber.)

This is their constitutional right to carry the weapon loaded, however, there is a well defined line of courtesy and respect to follow. I dont carry a loaded gun at work. It sends the wrong message, but when people are pulling out their loaded sidearm in my store it makes me think twice about carrying.

wriggly
March 6, 2011, 01:58 PM
There are a lot of folks that own guns, and routinely put themselves in close proximity to same, that should neither own them nor be around them.

leadcounsel
March 6, 2011, 02:01 PM
This is a great opportunity to teach folks right there at your counter. Rather than getting mad after the fact, you could proactively instruct them about the courtesies of muzzle sweeps and also teach about the 4 rules of gun safety. Done correctly, folks can appreciate it and it opens a great dialogue!

scrat
March 6, 2011, 02:33 PM
You work at a gunstore. You are in charge of the guns not the customers. When you give a gun to a customer you check again to make sure its empty. Then you DIRECTLY tell the customer where to point the muzzle of the gun and tell them this is the only place you want to see the muzzle facing. Remind the customer this not a toy. Some will get offended and some will appreciate it. However bottom line you are in charge its your responsibility. You have to manage the situation.

Ala Dan
March 6, 2011, 03:03 PM
I totally agree with Bubba 613 on this one~! :) ;)

Mac's Precision
March 6, 2011, 03:28 PM
This is actually an easier problem to fix than you think. Simply tack a target up behind the counter...and when you hand them the pistol to look at...tell them "Please, point the muzzle at the target provided over there....and not at me...thank you" You may even choose to write on the target "Point guns HERE ONLY" It works wonders in sending the message that they need to control their actions and that you don't appreciate looking at the business end of a gun.

In my shop, I only allow guns to be pointed at a stack of 5 gallon pails full of sand. I am not going to have people randomly pointing weapons around. All it takes is one wild cartridge that ends up in someone's gun...somehow...and I have a hole in the wall....and uncontrolled fire on my property. No....that is not how I do it. All guns...loaded or not....get pointed in the designated safe zone...no questions.

Cheers
Mac.

Double Naught Spy
March 6, 2011, 05:13 PM
A sign would be great if everybody actually read them.
Yep, few folks read signs. Even worse, employees often don't follow what the signs say either.

This is their constitutional right to carry the weapon loaded, however, there is a well defined line of courtesy and respect to follow.
That would be the well defined line of courtesy and respect that none of your customers seem to know about? Or do you think that they just don't like you?

I dont carry a loaded gun at work. It sends the wrong message, but when people are pulling out their loaded sidearm in my store it makes me think twice about carrying.

I think you must have forgotten to add the emoticons to your post. You had to be joking, right? After all, who would ever think that a gun store employee carrying a gun would send a wrong message.

Just a polite heads-up, but you do realize that gun stores do get robbed from time to time, don't you?

22-rimfire
March 6, 2011, 05:20 PM
I would place some signs up on the counter in clear english. Handle every gun as if it is loaded. Do not point any gun at employees or customers. I pay most attention to the employee handing me the firearm.

kingpin008
March 6, 2011, 05:25 PM
I dont carry a loaded gun at work. It sends the wrong message

What wrong message could that possibly send? I'm sorry, but everyone I know who works at a gun shop carries. Most of them openly. Heck, even the guy who owns the pawn shop I go to for transfers open carries in his shop.

IMHO, a gun shop employee who is uncomfortable carrying a gun is somewhat suspicious. I'm not saying that everyone has to carry, but if you worked in a shop where it was condoned and likely even expected yet chose not to...I'd probably wait to deal with another clerk.

NMGonzo
March 6, 2011, 05:30 PM
Thank you! I've been swept by more gun shop employees than I have paying customers like myself

yup

Lakedaemonian
March 6, 2011, 06:51 PM
Quote:
I dont carry a loaded gun at work. It sends the wrong message

What wrong message could that possibly send? I'm sorry, but everyone I know who works at a gun shop carries. Most of them openly. Heck, even the guy who owns the pawn shop I go to for transfers open carries in his shop.

IMHO, a gun shop employee who is uncomfortable carrying a gun is somewhat suspicious. I'm not saying that everyone has to carry, but if you worked in a shop where it was condoned and likely even expected yet chose not to...I'd probably wait to deal with another clerk.

:cuss: Suspicious? First of all, the owner doesnt allow open carry so its out of my hands. I carry everywhere other than school and work. (going to collage) Personally I like Mac's suggestion. This is something I can take to my boss and hopefully it will help.

McCall911
March 6, 2011, 07:34 PM
My other suggestion might be as impractical/undesirable as the legislated gun safety. For those entering with guns into gun stores.

I've noticed that many people are not too good about reading signs. I'm no exception. They also occasionally bring loaded guns into gun shops. And I'm no exception to that either. (Just once for me, but that once could have proved to be too much.)
So here's my (harebrained?) suggestion: Customers who enter gunstores have to go through a greeter at the store. The greeter's first responsibility would be to ask the customer if he/she/they have any firearms. (Possible exception: On-duty police entering the store, and those with CCW's for guns they're not going to sell or trade.) Then the greeter would be knowledgeable about firearms to the point where he would be able to check the chamber and magazines of any firearm which enters the store. He would then make sure the guns/gun are unloaded before the customer is permitted to enter. Once the gun/guns are determined to be unloaded, the customer would then be required to read a sign before he went inside. This would be a brief review of firearms safety, plus any rules the dealer wants to impose (like no dry-firing .22 rimfires, etc.)
A pain for the customer, sure, but it would be one way that the dealer, and even the customers, might have some assurance of safety within the store.

kingpin008
March 6, 2011, 08:47 PM
Lake - I'm confused. Earlier you said that carrying at work would "send the wrong message". But if your only option is to carry concealed (as per boss' rules) how would that send any message? Concealed is concealed, right?

Ala Dan
March 6, 2011, 08:58 PM
"ALL GUNS ARE LOADED, ALL OF THE TIME"
'Nuff Said

Creature
March 6, 2011, 09:06 PM
First of all, the owner doesnt allow open carry so its out of my hands.

I would never work at a gun store that doesn't allow open or concealed carry for the employees.

TechBrute
March 6, 2011, 10:02 PM
"ALL GUNS ARE LOADED, ALL OF THE TIME"
'Nuff Said

So, how do you clean your guns? How do you inspect the rifling on a barrel before you buy?

Let's stop pretending that guns are magical things that are always loaded, shall we? Then we can have an open dialog about safety and not treat grown ups like children. This whole farce lends credibility to antis that think that guns are uncontrollable, living, evil objects with a will, instead of inanimate objects.

Guns don't load themselves, and the second we acknowledge that, the sooner we can act rationally about it.

Oh, and it's spelled "College". :D

Sport45
March 6, 2011, 10:50 PM
We have a sign on the front door that askes people not to bring loaded firearms in. Nevertheless, constantly people pull out a hot weapon and say "Hey I need a holster for this."

... This is their constitutional right to carry the weapon loaded, however, there is a well defined line of courtesy and respect to follow.

As far as I know there is no constitutional right to carry a loaded firearm on private propert agains the wishes of the owner. If the store has a properly posted "no loaded weapons" sign then customers are bound by law to obey it. A freindly reminder might be in order when they ask about holsters (before they reach for the gun, if possible).

Deltaboy
March 6, 2011, 11:10 PM
Gently correct the man in a regular tone of voice and let it go at that.

True Grit
March 7, 2011, 12:10 AM
You need to find another job. Get used to it. This is why you check the gun before you give it to the customer.

I suppose it is also unsafe to check the rifling on a revolver by looking down the muzzle with the cylinder opened.

There are practical limits to gun safety folks. I am always the one who has to say this because everyone else is too afraid to. Safety is good but sensible safety is better.
I would be upset too. It doesn't matter if he's behind the counter at a gun shop, hunting in the woods, at the range, or on patrol. Saftety still applies. Just because the man works at a gun shop doesn't mean that he has to be use to or like people waving guns in his face. NEVER point a gun at someone unless you mean buisness and I'm not talking about "sales" = ]

Lakedaemonian
March 7, 2011, 12:15 AM
Okay, my biggest gripe about this whole situation is Jackassery with an "unloaded" weapon translates into Jackassery with a "loaded" weapon. Negligence is not a random act, but a habit just like proper weapon safety. And of course, staring down the barrel of a Beretta Extrema 12 gage sucks big time.

kingpin008
March 7, 2011, 12:16 AM
If the store has a properly posted "no loaded weapons" sign then customers are bound by law to obey it.

Maybe in your neck of the woods, but that's not true across the board.

kingpin008
March 7, 2011, 12:18 AM
Lake - you haven't mentioned how you handled the situation. As an employee of the shop, you have the authority to correct such actions, and hopefully prevent them from happening in the future. Perhaps if you were a bit more direct with your customers, they'd be a little more cognizant of the safety rules.

walking arsenal
March 7, 2011, 12:26 AM
Welcome to the real world.

I used to work in a shop and we came up with two simple ideas to keep people from pointing guns around.

First. We made sure we where the ones to open the gun cases and check the gun. Not the customer.

Gun case goes on counter. We open it. We check the gun. Nice gun. what can we do for you.

Gun needs to come out of display case. We check it. Dump the mag. Hand gun to customer. Explain the features.

Second. We put a target on the wall and when we handed someone a gun we just said keep it pointed at the target.

It worked really well.

If you can't handle people then maybe working in a gun shop isn't your cup of tea.

DammitBoy
March 7, 2011, 12:42 AM
If the store has a properly posted "no loaded weapons" sign then customers are bound by law to obey it.

If you go to any CCW thread here, you'll get an argument from half the posters saying they don't need to honor that sign or that if they break that rule, nobody will know because they say they'll keep it concealed.

Lakedaemonian
March 7, 2011, 01:44 AM
If you go to any CCW thread here, you'll get an argument from half the posters saying they don't need to honor that sign or that if they break that rule, nobody will know because they say they'll keep it concealed.


Check, good to go. Leave it concealed and if someone trys to rob the place by all means draw and drop, but the PROBLEM I HAVE WITH IT is people feel the need to pull out their hot weapon and compare it to something I pull out of the case. In which case I politlely, but with a sharp and direct tone ask "Sir, if that gun is loaded, unload it now."

Lakedaemonian
March 7, 2011, 01:58 AM
Lake - you haven't mentioned how you handled the situation. As an employee of the shop, you have the authority to correct such actions, and hopefully prevent them from happening in the future. Perhaps if you were a bit more direct with your customers, they'd be a little more cognizant of the safety rules.


Oh no, I just stand there dumbfounded. Of course I correct the action. The most recent case of blatent improper safety was like I mentioned earlier. A man from out of state askes to see a Walther PPK. I pull it out, check clear, and set the gun on the table in front of him. He proceeds to pull out his own LOADED PPK and says, hey this is just like mine.

Im being completly serious here. Oh, and dont get me started about the Desert Eagle boy. A guy walks in with his Desert Eagle in a drop leg thigh holster. I ask him, "Sir, is that hand cannon loaded?" (in a joking tone as not to offend) and his reply "Oh I forgot that was there" REALLY?! No seriously you FORGOT you had an extra 5 pounds strapped to your thigh?? These are the MORONS I'm talking about gents. I'm not saying every gun enthusiest that comes into a gun store is a moron because then Id be calling all of you morons. Im talking about the guys that give all of us safe gun owners a bad name.

Edit:

Please dont take what Im saying in the wrong way. I am ALL about carrying concealed. I believe a few well trained citizens living out their lives armed could stop a lot of bad situations. For instance, maybe a psycopath shooter in Arizona may not have gotten as many shots off if a CCW fella was present. However, when there is a SIGN on the door that says "Please, no loaded guns on premesis" and not to mention the fact of the MILLIONS of dollars in deadly merchandise on the shelves. Dont piss on the electric fence please.

Vyacheslav
March 7, 2011, 02:20 AM
another one of those "i work at a gun store and every customer who has ever done something wrong is a moron" threads. you do realize that not everyone who walks into a gun store has had experience with guns before and might not know all about gun safety. that's why you clear the gun before handing it to them and correct them if they point it in the wrong direction, simple as that, no need to go home and cry to a bunch of guys on the internet about it.

redbullitt
March 7, 2011, 04:26 AM
Id keep a spray bottle handy. Squirt them with it and "NO" in an authoritative voice.

Works on ferrets.

doc2rn
March 7, 2011, 05:00 AM
We put a target on the wall and when we handed someone a gun we just said keep it pointed at the target.

It worked really well.

^This is a very acceptable solution.

Bubba613
March 7, 2011, 05:26 AM
Oh no, I just stand there dumbfounded. Of course I correct the action. The most recent case of blatent improper safety was like I mentioned earlier. A man from out of state askes to see a Walther PPK. I pull it out, check clear, and set the gun on the table in front of him. He proceeds to pull out his own LOADED PPK and says, hey this is just like mine.


If that kind of thing is really going to bother you you need a new line of work. Because that's going to happen every day.

And the most common reaction I see to "no guns" signs is "I'll take my business elsewhere."

Mags
March 7, 2011, 05:42 AM
The only safety concern I have with gun shops is when I am handed a gun with the action closed and unverified. After I have verified the gun to be clear I generally aim at some stupid sign behind the counter and test the trigger.

I'm sure my actions make some people mad, they're probably the same folks who dont like being muzzle swept by holstered guns either such as a shoulder holster.

FROGO207
March 7, 2011, 09:07 AM
SHEESH--------Nothing like living in the real world is there.:what: A LOT of people are unaware of many, what are obvious to some, safety rules. IMHO things are much safer today in regards to firearms use. A lot of people that don't know any better could be well served by your ability to use a gentle teaching moment. You in a non threatening voice "Hey there-it"s not safe to point that muzzle at me (them etc.) like that." Then ask them if they remember the four rules-if not remind them "These 4 rules have helped me and my friends stay safe while handling/using firearms in the past" then state the 4 rules in an informational way. IMHO a person who has little or no prior firearms experience will want to learn to be safe just like we wanted to when we started in most instances.

ForumSurfer
March 7, 2011, 09:35 AM
If the store has a properly posted "no loaded weapons" sign then customers are bound by law to obey it.

Legally that depends on where you are.

If that is posted, they don't get my business...ever. At least until they remove the signs. Hopefully a certain store in Apex is reading this. I've gone out of my way (which speaks volumes given current gas prices) and paid MORE money for the same firearm elsewhere since this one particular store refuses to honor my rights.

My favorite store has a big sign on the front door that says "Keep it holstered while inside." Smaller text directs the customer to bring any items that need to be displayed inside a case, unloaded. Should be common sense...but it isn't. They also have a sign in the bathroom that says "stand closer, your range isn't as long as you think."

Last week I was swept by a guy. He whipped out his new PT1911 and proceeded to empty to the chamber and show it to the clerk. He was thoughtful enough not to point it at the clerk...instead he pointed it to his immediate right where I was handling a blackhawk out of the case. He had the nerve to roll his eyes as the other clerk and I stopped our conversation and stared nervously. I handed the blackhawk back and told them I'd be back later.

bbuddtec
March 7, 2011, 10:10 AM
One thing... it's dealing with the public, never let a sign take the place of interaction.


( Never assume the sign did your job )

Be the range officer...

SSN Vet
March 7, 2011, 10:11 AM
How about this one...

after conducting a chamber check in the customers presence, as you had the pistol to them say "please be careful not to point the muzzle at anyone"...

and if they balk "but you just unloaded it" .... respond with "it's standard gun safety and the person you point it at doesn't know that"

Or.... gun store display counters could be arranged with a designated "target" for customers to take a firing stance and see the sight picture. Put large text over the target "do not pull the trigger".

Few people (especially men) have the humility to admit it when they are clueless (especially about a macho topic), so assume the role of friendly instructor of the basics from the get go.

Be especially watchfull of guys who put on the air of "know it all".

Regardless of the customers knowledge and pactice, YOU, having a clue can ensure the safety of yourself and the other employees and customers.

Not that the OP did this, but many will balk at the state requiring a demostration of knowledge and minimal proficiency for a CCW or FOID card as a denial of 2nd ammendment rights in one breath, and then state that people shouldn't be allowed to pass the threshold of a gunstore or range, without that same K & P. ;)

Panzercat
March 7, 2011, 11:05 AM
First, congratulations on actually having customers. You are usually the first point of contact a gun n00b will encounter. As such, you're either going to get fusterated and drive them away or start finding ways to deal with it.

I'd suggest putting a plackard out in plain site with the four rules. If the person's ability to handle a firearm is suspect, point to the plackard casually before you hand it over and politely advise them to observe the rules.

mdauben
March 7, 2011, 11:26 AM
the PROBLEM I HAVE WITH IT is people feel the need to pull out their hot weapon and compare it to something I pull out of the case. In which case I politlely, but with a sharp and direct tone ask "Sir, if that gun is loaded, unload it now."
I admit this seems like such a self-evident process I sometimes have a hard time getting my head around people ignoring it. If I ever felt the need to pull a loaded CCW out for any reason other than using it, my first action would be to automatically drop the magazine and clear the chamber (or dump the cylinder) while pointing it in a safe direction.

ForumSurfer
March 7, 2011, 11:55 AM
In which case I politlely, but with a sharp and direct tone ask "Sir, if that gun is loaded, unload it now."

I hate that! There's no reason to pull it and clear it in the store.

If I ever felt the need to pull a loaded CCW out for any reason other than using it, my first action would be to automatically drop the magazine and clear the chamber (or dump the cylinder) while pointing it in a safe direction.

And that is the reason...there is no safe direction in a store full of people in every direction. Ricochets will happen off of that carpet covered or tile covered concrete floor.

christcorp
March 7, 2011, 06:20 PM
For a very serious topic, some of it is just too funny.

1. If a gun shop in Wyoming put up a "No Loaded Guns Allowed" sign on their door, they would be out of business within 4 weeks. Customers would simply never go to that gun shop.

2. 86% of all Wyoming households have guns. Most wyoming citizens have been shooting guns since they were children. The problem most gun customers have here, is keeping our lip carefully bit as we hear some part time gun store employee pretend they know what they're talking about. Sometimes you just want to say: "Here's the money for the merchandise. I'll give you an extra $10 to shut the hell up".

3. We get a lot of transplants in from California, New York, etc... We actually get calls from rural transplanted residents to the highway patrol and sheriff's office complaining because an elk, deer, bear, coyote, etc... is cutting through their yard/property.

But even with some of the issues, I am so glad that I no longer live in New Jersey. Oh; and for what it's worth, our state legislature just met and overwhelmingly introduced and approved a bill, that the governor just signed into law, stating that wyoming residents no longer need a concealed weapons permit to carry a pistol concealed. Plus, we still have our open carry. "We still have our CCW permit for those who travel a lot out of state". God I love Wyoming.

Double Naught Spy
March 7, 2011, 07:25 PM
There is a line, unfortunately, that as a person making sales that you don't want to cross with your customers. You don't want to come across as chastising in advance or being condescending about gun instruction. Maybe some of y'all have missed many of the previous threads dealing with gun shop attitudes, but far too many of us experience the gun shop curmudgeon behind the counter when we go into gun stores. Too many gun store folks don't seem to care if they make sales or not and so customer go elsewhere to buy guns and such individual gun stores suffer.

If you are the gun store person behind the counter and you are tired of how people handle guns inside of your shop, then why haven't you found a way to better resolve the issue other than to complain about it?

We had one of those "posted" gun shops as well here in North Texas. It went into business after the owner of our only gun store retired and went out of business. He had done good business for decades and we were ripe for a new shop. It lasted about 3 months.

Your customers are not the enemy. They may not be who you want them to be, but they are not the enemy. A good salesman can work through a difficult situation without stepping on toes or making people upset.

jtcimp00
March 7, 2011, 07:58 PM
Having worked in a store myself, I made sure to tell the customers where they could point the gun. It's generally not a good idea to have one customer pointing a gun across the store while another is walking through the front door. If a customer has a problem following my rules and the rules of the manager, they lose the privilege to view the store's guns and most certainly any privilege that they had to buy them. Not a power grab, just common sense. Just like when the idiot who screams at me because he makes an error on the 4473 which disallows him from buying a firearm and attempts to rip up the document and threatens me that he will be waiting for me later loses his privilege to come back in the store. It really all boils down to having sound management being behind you 100%. I am usually for the customer is always right, but I have to disagree on this one. I am generally suspicious of the loaded status of any gun's chamber, and refuse to be at the wrong end of the barrel at any time. Maybe you should speak to the management about your concerns.

Gouranga
March 7, 2011, 08:08 PM
You know, I have seen that behavior from both sides of the counter. I do not ever take for granted that the guy who handled a gun before me has properly cleared it and nobody should ever do so with me.

I always say there are 4 basic rules to gun safety. You can break 1 without endangering a life, but once you break 2, you are endangering someones life. Once you start pointing a gun at someone you are already half way there.

I cannot tell you how many times I have gone to Gander and had someone pointing an AR at me. In all fairness, I have had a stupid time or 2 when I have been really checking out a handgun, I was thinking of buying and not been paying attention to the muzzle and had it pointing at the clerk. I will apologize, but in my mind, I am kicking myself.

I think as a community we can and should be able to learn from another. I should be able to respectfully point out an unsafe practice and likewise if I am being an idiot (we all have our moments) the clerk, should be able to respectfully request I not point a firearm at him.

Though I will say this, working at a gun store this is something you will see from now till the day you stop working there. You could have a word with the owner and ask him/her if they would mind if you respectfully requested the customer not point a gun in your face. But really, that is all you can do.

VT Deer Hunter
March 7, 2011, 08:12 PM
Some people are just ignorant of gun safety. It's probably because they never attended a hunter's safety course.
That is the problem often and they get or new to guns etc.

cwp3420
March 7, 2011, 11:18 PM
I work at a large sporting goods store in New Mexico. I always hand the customer a revolver open or an auto with the slide locked back. We have 2 large fluorescent targets stapled up high behind the counter that says "Aim Here!". We always advise the customer of this. However, we still get people ignorant of how to safely handle weapons and try our best to educate them in the time allowed. I had one woman come in with 3 small children in the shopping cart. She wanted a revolver as her husband was out of town occasionally. I handed her a Ruger SP-101 and she immediately shut the cylinder, pointed it at her children, and pulled the trigger 3 times! Before any of us could say anything, she said "Gee, I could have taken them out all at once!" I grabbed the gun out of her hand before she could do anything else. We called security and had her removed from the store. To this day I don't know what she was thinking, or not thinking as the case may be. I sincerely hope she never does buy a firearm, at least until she has had some training.

WVMountainBoy
March 8, 2011, 05:15 AM
On the point of signs...
I work in a police detachment which is located on a larger police compound where many things take place in different buildings/offices. There are two doors that face the parking lot on the one to the far right it says "TROOPERS ENTRANCE ONLY" then just below that it says "PUBLIC ENTRANCE" with a large red arrow pointing towards said public entrance. We still get members of the public pounding on this door at all hours. The second funny thing about signs, On the "Public" entrance there is a sign that says "Fingerprints and backgrounds are NOT handled in this building, they are handled in the large brick building. Go between this building and the other white building and you will see the building with the flag poles, enter through the glass doors" and we get between five and ten people every day who walk into the office and up to the clerk and tell them they are here for fingerprints.

shootingthebreeze
March 8, 2011, 11:05 AM
Have a professional sign made which states "When handling firearms always keep the firearm pointed in a neutral, safe direction." As a dealer you don't want to ruffle customer feathers but you also want proper behavior because it's your store-thus, customers are guests as well.
Myself as a retired veteran, it bothers me how careless civilians can be and that really comes from not being trained properly.

popper
March 8, 2011, 11:15 AM
Yea, my wife did that to me, it WAS loaded and she had her finger ON the trigger.
I've GOT to send her to a class.

dirtykid
March 8, 2011, 02:30 PM
Unfortunately your gun shop is where most people are gonna come first,BEFORE they have taken any "training",, in our society today ALOT of people seek instant gratification,, i gotta go buy a gun NOW and i dont wanna have to wait,because it's my RIGHT !! ,,, seen it way too often,,, In Mn here,there was a couple congress-folk that thought the standard "waiting period" was un-constitutional and that we should abolish the law supporting it !! I hope for my,and my family's sake they dont suceed ! we have had an incident in town here already where some guy starting having a heart-attack while driving and drifted off-road into or towards a crow gathered for fireworks,, So we have Mr pistol-packin cowboy draw his weapon and aim at 80+ yr old dude in car,,, like he was attacking !! He lost his pistol-permit for life i think,, and that is just 1 of many examples i have witnessed that left me wondering, Who trained these people ?? I think it has to start somewhere, So be a hero, (again) and TEACH people as you sell, the gun shop i 1st started buying guns from corrected me on handling and shooting techniques the first day i was there to browse,, i still buy guns from him and respect them for taking the time to CARE about how the gun they were selling was going to be handled,,

btg3
March 8, 2011, 03:30 PM
...a sign that says "Fingerprints and backgrounds are NOT handled in this building, they are handled in the large brick building. Go between this building and the other white building and you will see the building with the flag poles, enter through the glass doors"...

This sign is not working. Why? Do you need a sign that says "Read the Sign"? :rolleyes:

Some signs are more effective than others and there are reasons. Think about it, and if a solution can't be identified, get help from a Visual Management professional (which is something that many professional sign-makers are clueless about).

Gouranga
March 8, 2011, 04:28 PM
Myself as a retired veteran...

I don't know about that. My grandfather had some interesting stories about basic. Said the guy next to him on the line. Pulled the trigger, the gun (M1 Garand) went click with no discharge. He pointed the weapon right in the face of the officer watching him and said something along the lines of "I won't work. I think the barrel is plugged and you see anything?". Course that was the last time that particular person ever saw a firing line.

451 Detonics
March 8, 2011, 04:32 PM
I owned a brick and mortar store for 20 years...all I can say is learn to live with it happening, wear a vest, and develop toleration moderated by basic polite instruction in gun handling...

or quit and find other work cause things aren't going to change

reuben mishler
March 8, 2011, 06:25 PM
I think that most civilians have not had the proper training as far as handling firearms. This is not to be taken that ALL civilians don't know how to handle a firearm....just merely that the more recent generations were not brought up with firearms as most of us where, and so they just simply don't know the basic rules that we, as respectful firearm owners and handlers do.

You could think of working at a gun store as, your chance to make a difference. If someone starts doing that, let them know, be polite and inform them. Most likely they are just excited about the product you just put in their hand. They might even thank you for letting them know, and also tell you they either forgot....or didn't know.

This isn't to excuse their actions, just that most folks today, were not given the upbringing with firearms as it sounds that you were or the rest of us on this thread.

I think the further and longer that society thinks firearms are largely tools of destruction, the less amount of people will learn the proper safety fundamentals of these items.

RonDeer10mm
March 8, 2011, 11:14 PM
You know what pisses me off, when I go to a gunstore and they treat a new gun owner that say the most ridiculous things better than a experienced gun owner...

Iftrue
March 8, 2011, 11:26 PM
@RonDeer10mm:

Sounds about right to me. Would you really want to scare off someone that could be a life-time customer? Experienced gun owners probably won't stop buying guns because you sternly told them to control their muzzle.

jim goose
March 9, 2011, 01:44 AM
I love the gun range ego. Seems everyone who can point a gun is an expert and needs no advice. I check out when those people arrive. And they are not the local gang banger types. usually middle age, professional types.

I saw a guy pulling a new glock trigger lower left until he tweaked his brand new crimson trace grips so hard he stripped the screws adjusting for it. I tried to interject some modesty, but when that failed, I checked out.

JohnF Boulder Co
March 9, 2011, 03:29 AM
earlthegoat2
...
I suppose it is also unsafe to check the rifling on a revolver by looking down the muzzle with the cylinder opened.

There are practical limits to gun safety folks. I am always the one who has to say this because everyone else is too afraid to. Safety is good but sensible safety is better.
Mr.Davis
I suppose you're okay with me dry firing one of my pistols in your direction then, right? Don't worry, I cleared it first.

I recognize that if you imagine a laser beam coming out of the barrel of a gunship pistol, it's basically impossible to get it out of the case and into the customer's hands without sweeping someone. That doesn't mean that we should accept a customer (or employee) casually pointing that gun in the direction of other people.

I've been swept by more clerks than customers, personally. Either way it's an uncomfortable feeling to have a gun pointed my way, and it should be discouraged.

Perhaps a quick "Please be careful to keep the gun pointed in a safe direction" while handing it over would prevent some of this carelessness.Big difference between a casual sweep, 1.5 seconds after they watched you make sure it's clear, and dry-firing it at someone who just walked into line of sight...

As I remember from somewhere online, Cooper himself said that it's possible to take "the rules" to ridiculous extremes, but just that fact means that people are aware of them and of what they're doing.

One store around here is so small that it's almost impossible to point something as long as a carbine in any direction without bumping it against something or into someone's way, let alone standing ogling something in a case and being in someone's way...

Some one here mentioned being "muzzle swept" by a holstered gun, and should you take afront? Common sense.

Working retail sux, but we do our best with signage and talking. If you've got to get "preachy" with some rules before letting them handle merchandise, they'd better get used to it, because we can't change our necessary routine -especially those of you who work around weaponry.


Then there's this:
http://www.ignatius-piazza-front-sight.com/2009/02/16/this-makes-my-heart-bleed/

In Richard Bach's book "Stranger to the ground", he's telling about his time flying in the USAF. He mentions something about the F-86 (I think -it's probably endemic to all planes and just about everything else):
They had lots of incidents of pilots bringing their planes in for picture-perfect landings, right down the runway, and "bang! scrape! crunch!" forgetting to put their wheels down...
They made it a checklist item and it cleared the problem mostly, but still they'd have pilots getting in a hurry; they know the drill, they do it a million times, so they scribble checks on the list and scrape their planes down the ground.
They made it a mandatory item for the tower to query them about to make sure, and still they'd get in a hurry and skip something routine and ruin another plane.
They redesigned the cockpit so that in order for the pilot to see over the nose, he'd adjust the seat and the gear lever was set so that it's conspicuously in the way unless they lowered the gear...
Buzzers, warning lights, etc, etc. And still it happens.

Double Naught Spy
March 9, 2011, 02:34 PM
As I remember from somewhere online, Cooper himself said that it's possible to take "the rules" to ridiculous extremes, but just that fact means that people are aware of them and of what they're doing.

Check out Jeff pointing his pistol over the berm and covering his leg as he reholsters. There is a very clear closeup of him covering his own leg as he reholsters at 2:44... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ci3uPXj6Dpo&feature=related Nobody would want to take gun safety to ridiculous extremes, that is clear from his actions. Of course, you have to be safe before you can take safety to ridiculous extremes.

Here is one of his "training" videos where he pretty well violates ALL of his safety rules.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKgAkwB8WRo

Quoting Cooper himself from his safety rules...
Make these rules a part of your character. Never compromise them. Improper gunhandling results from ignorance and improper role modeling, such as handling your gun like your favorite actor does. Education can cure this. You can make a difference by following these gunhandling rules and insisting that those around you do the same. Set the example. Who knows what tragedies you, or someone you influence, may prevent?

xcgates
March 9, 2011, 02:46 PM
Every thing in moderation, including moderation.

There is a time and place for (most) everything.

rhodco
March 9, 2011, 02:46 PM
Ignorance can be fixed. Stupid is forever.

You can't get mad at people who don't know any better. But, those who do know better and get careless... or think it's funny... would get a punch to the head from me.

Uteridge
March 9, 2011, 03:08 PM
Exactly. I do mind have any kind of gun, loaded or unloaded, pointed at me but I don't mind working with someone who just doesn't know what they are doing. I enjoy working with new shooters because they are usually happy to learn.

What bugs me are the guys who already own guns or have a military/LE background but have horrible gun handling techniques. Many of those guys don't like being corrected or taught. I don't run into those guys often but when I do I kick them off my range as quickly as humanly possible. If I am running a range I am responsible for the safety on that range; if you own a gunshop you are responsible for the safety in that shop. YOu don't want people who know better but are careless or just don't care in your area of responsiblity.

wsm
March 10, 2011, 02:30 AM
I must be going blind. I have read every post in this thread and I cannot find out what WRONG message he's talking about. Please correct me.:banghead::banghead::banghead:

btg3
March 10, 2011, 12:31 PM
wsm -- see post #33

sierrabravo45
March 10, 2011, 12:33 PM
I have been on both sides of the counter. I am glad I stopped working at a gun store, (not because of muzzle sweeps) but because I spent to much money on guns. I actually asked the owner one time if I could get every 3rd paycheck in store credit.

MOST people, (I am using Most, but I feel IQ in people is dropping rapidly) don't violate the basic principles with guns, they try to keep the muzzle in a safe direction etc. But some do not. I think to have Problems in Gun stores whether this be muzzle sweeps, opening ammo etc, or doing what YOU think is wrong comes down to a two things.

1. Lack of PROPER training

2. Ignorance

While the second You can't do much about, the first YOU can.

Use proper instruction if someone is doing something wrong, first ask the person to stop the muzzle sweep, and instead of yelling at them, instruct them why it is wrong etc. Stopping a person mid act, makes them realize what they did was wrong. But just yelling at them won't help.

Another option (what I did) BEFORE I ever handed the customer a gun, I would INSTRUCT them where they could safely point a handgun, rifle, shotgun etc. This solved MOST of the problems. I would occasionally get muzzle swept, but proper instruction beforehand normally prevented this.

btg3
March 10, 2011, 01:37 PM
BEFORE I ever handed the customer a gun, I would INSTRUCT them where they could safely point a handgun, rifle, shotgun etc. This solved MOST of the problems.

Kudos for taking action that proved effective!

Let's consider whether this muzzle sweep problem belongs to store management, store employees, or customers. In the end, you want muzzle sweep prevented regardless of who walks in the door and regardless of who's at work or on vacation -- so if you leave it up to customers or employees responsible for establishing/practicing a consistent procedure/policy you will be effective a small percentage of the time.

In this case, one employee has an effective solution. If management were to endorse this solution and train all employees to do the same thing, it has high potential to be effective -- maybe not 100% idiot-proof, but effective at some level.

Any better ideas?

wsm
March 10, 2011, 09:22 PM
Btg3.

I went back and read post #33. Either I can't read correctly or that post just says that him carrying sends the wrong message. I want someone to tell me what that wrong message is. Thanks for the reply BTG3.

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