AK question


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Pinski1015
March 6, 2011, 01:02 AM
Been lurking here for a while and finally decided to join. Seems like a ton of great info here and people. My first question is there any way to get a genuine imported non US made or modified(besides removal of full auto capabilities) Russian or commy block AK47?

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BIGBANG
March 6, 2011, 01:16 AM
I think a saiga is about as russian as i gets but i may be mistaken, other makers have to rebuild the guns after the parts are imported , so the are russian parts guns, but put together here. If I'm wrong please correct me but as far as straight for the factory russian gun its saiga in the sporter version. Thats the only way they could get it imported and keping it from getting banned.

nalioth
March 6, 2011, 01:38 AM
Saigas are brand new guns, made in the Izhmash factory (where the Kalashnikov was born).

Zastava PAP rifles are new guns, made in Yugoslavia.

Both of the above will require work to allow them to use milsurp magazines.

Romanian WASRs and the Bulgarian SSR-85c are made up of recycled military AKs and sold here.


Oh yeah, before the kool-aid brigade comes along . .

Arsenal, Inc imports and sells Bulgarian-built AKs and imports, modifies and sells Russian Saigas with a very large markup on both.

61chalk
March 6, 2011, 07:58 AM
Find a used Norinco MAK90 from the early 90's..from commy china....I like mine an its built strong...you may not like the stock pistol grip combo...but after a refinishing job I've gottin use to mine.

Ohio Gun Guy
March 6, 2011, 08:02 AM
In short, no....

The above Norinco or Polytech will cost you about 2x what other kinds will. I've had both and performance wise find no difference. Looks, well they do look better, finish, etc.

A WASR with a refinished stock look like a com-block AK (cause they are), but still have some u.s. parts. However, the trigger groups by tapco are an improvement over the original trigger, the gas piston is a minor modification IMO and the US pistol grip is black, in lieu of red. Sometimes the slant muzzle break is u.s., but is indistinguishable from the romanian. The newer imported 10/63 version are of better quality, but I buy mine in person so I can look them over.

mshootnit
March 6, 2011, 09:13 AM
http://www.gunsimporter.com/-Vepr-762x39mm--16-12-BL_p_8.html

Roadkill
March 6, 2011, 09:52 AM
I've had several AKs and variants, still keep a few around for fun. For me the Saiga is an outstanding gun. As mentioned, its a Russian made AK.

http://www.hunt101.com/watermark.php?file=712911&size=1

nalioth
March 6, 2011, 01:34 PM
A WASR with a refinished stock look like a com-block AK (cause they are), but still have some u.s. parts. However, the trigger groups by tapco are an improvement over the original trigger,I heartily beg to differ with you, sir.

Nothing Tapco makes is an improvement over the original military parts.
I think you meant to say that Tapco FCGs are an improvement over Century's FCGs (which quite frankly, suck)

61chalk
March 6, 2011, 03:35 PM
What are AK's going for price wise? I've seen the pre-bans MAK90's going for as low as 350.00 an theres one on gunbroker for around 500.00....like anything, gotta shop around.

DoubleTapDrew
March 6, 2011, 10:10 PM
Saiga is the real deal, made by Izhmash in Russia (who made, and still makes the Russian military's AKs). The downside is they have to be imported in a "sporter" configuration and you need to convert it (or rather, revert it) to the true AK form. It's easy to do and will cost you around $150 in parts and a few hours labor.

JackTheRipper
March 6, 2011, 10:22 PM
I ordered a Red Jacket Classic Russian Red AK-47 (it's a Saiga)...

Build time is 16-24 weeks, I know it's overpriced and all, but I really wanted one! ;-)

Pinski1015
March 6, 2011, 10:39 PM
Thanks alot. Looked through the pic thread, why are there so many polymer pistol grips? Are the wood ones hard to find?

nalioth
March 6, 2011, 11:39 PM
why are there so many polymer pistol grips? Are the wood ones hard to find?Yep.

It's easier for the industry to blow-mold their grips from plastic. Cutting wood takes time, shaping the wood takes time, etc.

You can get wood grips (and complete furniture sets) from custom makers, if you want.

Cryogaijin
March 7, 2011, 02:52 AM
Thanks alot. Looked through the pic thread, why are there so many polymer pistol grips? Are the wood ones hard to find? Part of it is the stupid 922r import laws. I am not a lawyer, ATF agent or any other form of expert on the import laws, but my understanding of them is that if you replace ANY stock part on one of these import guns, you need to replace a minimum of 4 parts with American parts. So if you want to change out the the cheap (but adequate) injection molded furniture on the stock Saiga, you have to change out 3 more parts. (Or just the magazines, but still. . .)

As Nalioth mentioned, there are wood furniture kits for Saigas from custom shops. Some of them are actually QUITE reasonable in price. Example http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-540/TIMBERSMITH-TAPCO-AK47-WOOD/Detail

Just keep in mind that stocks generally are designed either for unconverted saigas, or for converted ones. Generally they won't work for both converted and unconverted guns.

Note: If someone has a better understanding of the import law, please post it. :)

nalioth
March 7, 2011, 02:54 AM
Part of it is the stupid 922r import laws. I am not a lawyer, ATF agent or any other form of expert on the import laws, but my understanding of them is that if you replace ANY stock part on one of these import guns, you need to replace a minimum of 4 parts with American parts.Not necessarily.

You only have to add US parts if you're going to end up with a gun in a configuration that is unimportable.

For instance, changing out hand guards isn't going to produce an unimportable firearm.

Ohio Gun Guy
March 7, 2011, 06:56 AM
All of the parts are listed in the 922r law. Handguards are one of them. It gets grey fast........

Read up on the 922 law http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

And here, a little more direct into what you are looking for.
http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/BuildAkVerifyCompliance

Sebastian the Ibis
March 7, 2011, 08:01 AM
is there any way to get a genuine imported non US made or modified(besides removal of full auto capabilities) Russian or commy block AK47?

Yes. Draco pistols come straight off the military production line and are sold un-monkeyed with here. They are imported as pistols and are not subject to 922(r).

If you want something with a stock. Pick up a Mak at a gun show, or go with one of the various 10 round neutered guns which are importable: Saiga, CZ58 or Vepr http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct967.aspx. However, modifying them to take 30rnd mags will require using US made parts.

Atlantic Firearms just got VEPRs in http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct967.aspx.

zoom6zoom
March 7, 2011, 08:55 AM
why are there so many polymer pistol grips? Are the wood ones hard to find?
Most of the originals were plastic, not wood. I have wood grips on my Hungarians, but they eventually changed their design to plastic as well.

nalioth
March 7, 2011, 03:04 PM
All of the parts are listed in the 922r law. Handguards are one of them. It gets grey fast........ No, it doesn't.

All you have to know is the appropriate laws.

922r prohibits the assembly of a firearm that is otherwise unimportable.
Where do we go for "what constitutes unimportable?"

There is no law, as the AG makes up the list as s/he goes, but it is commonly held the wording from the AWB holds for "sporting purposes".

The AWB said that 2 or more "evil features" on a long gun with a detachable magazine would make it "non-sporting" (and thus unimportable).

Handguards were never an AWB listed item.

Ohio Gun Guy
March 7, 2011, 08:26 PM
922r is a parts counting scheme (See below) I dont want to be the defender of it, (I think its absurd)...

Yes it is geared toward the assembly, but inorder to modify you need to include "x" number of us parts (Or reduce the number of foreign parts) to the prescribed number (Depending on features) allowed. Hand guards are counted in 922....

Modifying an imported AK should be done carefully, by carefully I mean....read up on 922r yourself, proceed with caution (And a determination to vote for people who dont pass legislation such as this.:mad: Then re-read the Constitution and see how "the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed...."Ponder.....and repeat. ):scrutiny:

The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), 18 U.S.C. Section 922, specifically states
the following:

It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any
semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun
prohibited from importation under the Section 925(d)(3)...as not being
particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes...
Also, 27 C.F.R. Section 478.39 (formerly 178.39) states-

"...(a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more
than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph of this section if the
assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) as not
being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purpose.....

( The provisions of this section shall not apply to:

(1) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a
licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof
or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or
(2) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of testing or
experimentation authorized by the Director under the provisions
of[478.151(formerly 178.151)]; or (3) The repair of any rifle or shotgun which
had been imported into or assembled in the United States prior to November 30,
1990, or the replacement of any part of such firearm.

For purposes of this section, the term imported parts [tabulated below]
are:


(1) Frames, receivers, receiver
castings, forgings, or castings.
(2) Barrels.
(3) Barrel extensions.
(4) Mounting blocks (trunnions).
(5) Muzzle attachments.
(6) Bolts.
(7) Bolt carriers.
(8) Operating rods.
(9) Gas pistons.
(10) Trigger housings.
(11) Triggers.
(12) Hammers.
(13) Sears.
(14) Disconnectors.
(15) Buttstocks.
(16) Pistol grips.
(17) Forearms, handguards.
(18) Magazine bodies.
(19) Followers.
(20) Floor plates.

nalioth
March 7, 2011, 09:08 PM
922r is a parts counting scheme (See below) I dont want to be the defender of it, (I think its absurd)... Nobody is disputing this.

It's only half the equation, though.

O'course, nobody has ever gone to jail for exceeding what the law requires (but it would make some folks' life easier if they knew the law(s) and didn't have to dump a bunch of good parts for no reason).

Cryogaijin
March 8, 2011, 01:10 AM
O'course, nobody has ever gone to jail for exceeding what the law requires (but it would make some folks' life easier if they knew the law(s) and didn't have to dump a bunch of good parts for no reason). Kinda like having to dump your stock magazine if you want to put an Evil pistol grip on it? The law is stupid, and doesn't solve anything.

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