.308 vs .300 Win Mag for long range accuracy?


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Mark-Smith
March 7, 2011, 01:23 AM
For hunting at shorter ranges, and paper punching at 1,000 yards, is there any advantage to using 300 win mag vs .308? (assuming factory match ammo in both cases)

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memphisjim
March 7, 2011, 01:25 AM
for close range the 308 is better less recoil and half the noise
1000yards the 300mag will be better

Mark-Smith
March 7, 2011, 01:26 AM
For boar hunting, does the .308 have enough oomph to do the job properly, or is the 300 win mag a better choice?

Old Time Hunter
March 7, 2011, 01:29 AM
A .308 is more than enough for pigs

Afy
March 7, 2011, 01:31 AM
Unless you're shooting boar at 300++ yards the .308 is just fine. I dont believe the boar will notice the difference. The .300 WM comes into its own beyond 600 yards for target shooting. Even then there are better options available for punching paper like the 6.5x47 Lapua, .260 Rem and the 6 BR.

Mark-Smith
March 7, 2011, 01:43 AM
The Tikka T3 I've been looking at comes chambered in the following - any particular ones that would be suitable for both long range accuracy and larger game hunting at closer ranges?

204 Ruger 12"
222 Rem 14"
223 Rem 8"
223 Rem 12"
22-250 Rem 14”
243 Win 10”
260 Rem 8”
7mm-08 Rem 9,5”
308 Win 11"
270 WSM 10”
T3 300 WSM 11”
25-06 Rem 10”
6.5 x 55 SE 8”
270 Win 10”
30-06 Sprg 11"
9.3x62 14"
7 mm Rem Mag 9.5"
300 Win Mag 11"
338 Win Mag 10

NG VI
March 7, 2011, 01:54 AM
What's with the inches next to the calibers? Surely you aren't buying a Tikka T3 in a 14" 9.3x62mm?

Mark-Smith
March 7, 2011, 02:27 AM
Rate of twist heh.

Jim Watson
March 7, 2011, 09:25 AM
For hunting at shorter ranges, and paper punching at 1,000 yards,

The myth of the all purpose rifle.
A rifle heavy enough to be steady from a solid position, and heavy enough to not kick you silly in a nice morning at the range will be way to heavy to carry in the woods.
My F-T/R target rifle weighs 17 lbs.
My 788 deer gun weighs less than half that.

USSR
March 7, 2011, 09:33 AM
For hunting at shorter ranges, and paper punching at 1,000 yards, is there any advantage to using 300 win mag vs .308? (assuming factory match ammo in both cases)

Well, first, you will not be using match ammo for hunting. Assuming two equally accurate rifles (big assumption, but once again, it's the rifle that is accurate, not the cartridge) in the lower 48, the advantage of the .300 Win Mag in hunting is in extending the range at which hunting can be ethically done. So, assuming you are hunting at shorter ranges for game other than the big bears, the .308 will serve you fine. When it comes to target shooting at 1,000 yards, the .308 is a marginal cartridge, and the .300 Win Mag is clearly superior to it. So, determine what your priority is and go with that cartridge, but again, it's the rifle, not the cartridge.

Don

GunsAmerica Fan
March 7, 2011, 09:48 AM
The .300 Win Mag has become the new extremely popular round for long range work, but I want to know where everyone is shooting 1000 yards. I laugh about it when I read it now because of that guy on youtube that hso posted it's a riot. I have to drive 4 hours to tampa to even shoot at 500 yards, and a 1000 yard shot in the glades might be possible, but good luck getting a shot at a hog at that distance. OP your question is too diverse to have one answer. For short range pigs well inside of 200 yards, if not 100 yards, a .308 is more than fine. I've tested the T3 and it is pretty accurate, but not a 1,000 rifle by any stretch of the imagination (unless you straightjacket it). You are much better with a Savage or TC Venture.

MtnCreek
March 7, 2011, 10:00 AM
but I want to know where everyone is shooting 1000 yards.

In the Rural South, we do our long range shooting in the pasture! Just got to make sure the cows, horses and goats are out of the way.

Tirod
March 7, 2011, 10:06 AM
The Army considered the difference significant enough that all the .308 sniper guns are being rebuilt as .300 Win Mag. Apparently the long range benefits are there.

They do NOT shoot handloads, factory production only.

Water-Man
March 7, 2011, 10:06 AM
YES.

HOOfan_1
March 7, 2011, 10:09 AM
Something on the History channel showed them hand loading for .300 WM...at least for the guys shooting matches. They were using a Hornady single stage press.

Water-Man
March 7, 2011, 10:10 AM
In answer to your question regarding the Tikka T3 - 6.5X55 SE

vaupet
March 7, 2011, 10:11 AM
I particularly love 6.5*55.
used in sweden for heavy game, better at distance than 308, less power then 300wm.
I'm going with Jim Watson though: for paper: heavy gun, heavy optics (heavy barrel)
for hunting: everything light
So you could go in one caliber but best two guns

Greetings
Peter

CowboyTim
March 7, 2011, 10:27 AM
Have you ever considered the .270 Win? Flat shooting round in 130gr should do a number on hogs(I know it'll sure thump a whitetail;)). If you reload you can get 110gr match bullets now. Less recoil than either the .308 0r the .300. Ammo selection, availability, and price is great. I could go on for a lot longer...oh well. If you decide to try one, and you reload, Try a 130gr. Interlock on top of 60gr. IMR 7828ssc(winchester brass, CCI250 primer)

peyton
March 7, 2011, 10:35 AM
270 winchester or 30.06 will cover long range and not wop the snot out of you shooting it. Plus the ammo price is not terrible.

brnmuenchow
March 7, 2011, 11:44 AM
I agree, the .270Win. is a superb, and good alter. to a .308Win. for hunting. As for the .300Win.Mag. it is a great choice for long distance target shooting, it does have a good kick though.

BoilerUP
March 7, 2011, 12:01 PM
For hunting deer <400yd and paper punching to 1000, REALLY hard to beat a 6.5mm load (260, Swede, Creedmoor, x284, etc).

If you absolutely have to have magnum, 7mmRM.

GuysModel94
March 7, 2011, 12:26 PM
Take a look at the 7mm-08, recoils like a .243, hits like .308 and shoots flat like a 270. Will actually overtake a .308 at about 250yrds, so i'm told.

longdayjake
March 7, 2011, 12:45 PM
The .300 Win Mag has become the new extremely popular round for long range work, but I want to know where everyone is shooting 1000 yards. I laugh about it when I read it now because of that guy on youtube that hso posted it's a riot.


Well, you may find it funny because you are in the east where it is near impossible to shoot 1000 yards without aiming over 10 houses or so. Well, out here in the west we often find legitimate reasons to practice 1000 yard shots. Though I will never shoot at an animal from 1000 yards, it is still fun to try my hand at hitting targets that far away.

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee232/longdayjake/NewHome012.jpg

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee232/longdayjake/NewHome003.jpg

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee232/longdayjake/NewHome005.jpg

essayons21
March 7, 2011, 02:59 PM
While certainly not comparing to the wide open spaces in Idaho, there certainly are plenty of places to take 1000yd shots on the east coast.

http://www.virginia1000.com/frame_main.htm

brnmuenchow
March 7, 2011, 04:53 PM
West Texas, wide open spaces out there for long distance shooting, although I agree I wouldn't take an animal at 1,000yd's unless it was a big as T-Rex.

Jim Watson
March 7, 2011, 04:55 PM
Nothing new about a .300 magnum for long range unless it has been rediscovered since I shot last.
Most LR shooters had dropped it in favor of 6.5s that kicked them around less over a long course of fire. Some are sneaking back up to 7mm for very high BC bullets.

UnTainted
March 7, 2011, 05:48 PM
Those pics of the Idaho palouse are awesome!!!

longdayjake
March 7, 2011, 06:18 PM
I know that there are longer ranges back east. My point was simply to say that someone shouldn't make fun of people that dare to conceive shooting out to 1000 yards. I know a few times out here I settled my rifle on a flock of pheasants about 1200 yards out (I think -my range finder barely reaches 1000). It was good practice for me to do my best to hold the crosshairs as still as possible and attempt to track their movement. IT IS HARD. My heartbeat would make the gun move as far as several feet off the bird. Don't worry, I didn't try to shoot them.

SpeedAKL
March 7, 2011, 07:36 PM
It's tough to reconcile a portable hunting rifle designed to take game at 0-400 yards with an accurized rifle that will be competitive at 1,000 yards. The closest you will get is likely a tactical-style rifle with a high-quality barrel. Customer builds for these types of guns are popular - GA Precision, Surgeon, and APA are all quite well-known for their work. You can also get a factory long-range rig designed to balance hunting and precision needs from McMillan, Weatherby, Remington's Custom Shop, Lazzeroni and a few others. Either way, it won't be cheap. The Remington 700 Sendero is probably the best value option for what you are looking for; I've considered one myself in the past. It's a blisteringly accurate gun and won't cost you much more than a grand. Don't skimp on optics though....

Check out www.longrangehunting.com or www.snipershide.com for some in-depth information.

Mark-Smith
March 7, 2011, 08:12 PM
If you have a rifle that will be accurate at 1,000 yards, what is difficult in taking game with the same rifle at less than half that grange?

USSR
March 7, 2011, 08:34 PM
If you have a rifle that will be accurate at 1,000 yards, what is difficult in taking game with the same rifle at less than half that grange?

In one word: weight. I have several 1,000 yard competition rifles, and the idea of carrying a 14 -16 lb. rifle in the field simply does not appeal to me. I have a separate rifle for hunting purposes.

Don

Mark-Smith
March 7, 2011, 08:44 PM
You raise a good point, though in my outdoors experience, the lighter your gear gets, the more the price skyrockets. If the budget for the rifle is $800-$900 not counting optics, and weight is a secondary consideration for the most part (if the rifle hits 35 lbs, I might reconsider heh), other than the Tikka T3 and Remington 700 variants, what else is out there that's accurate at 1,000 yards in that price range?

USSR
March 7, 2011, 09:39 PM
If the budget for the rifle is $800-$900 not counting optics, and weight is a secondary consideration for the most part (if the rifle hits 35 lbs, I might reconsider heh), other than the Tikka T3 and Remington 700 variants, what else is out there that's accurate at 1,000 yards in that price range?

Individual rifles are accurate or not accurate, not a particular make or model. You may get an accurate Tikka or Remington, or you may not. The FN SPR's are good LR rifles, although they are a bit more expensive. The primary determinate of accuracy is the barrel. There is a reason why most LR shooters go with custom barrels as opposed to factory barrels.

Don

Mark-Smith
March 7, 2011, 10:26 PM
What's the combined cost of an action, stock, trigger and custom barrel? Can such a thing be made well for $800-$900?

USSR
March 7, 2011, 10:51 PM
What's the combined cost of an action, stock, trigger and custom barrel? Can such a thing be made well for $800-$900?

Short answer: No. Barrel alone is $300 - $350. Then you need to have the barrel threaded and chambered, and installed. And, IMHO, installing a custom barrel without having the action trued is penny wise and pound foolish. So, you are talking about $800 just for installing a custom barrel properly. Then, you need the action, and I have always done this by buying a used rifle and selling off all the unwanted parts. This can bring the cost down to about $200 - $250 for the action. A good McMillan or Manners stock can cost you big $$$, and then you really should have it pillar bedded. Good triggers are not exactly cheap; I paid about $200 for my Jewell. Figure on $1500 - $2000, and that doesn't include the scope, rings, or 20MOA base. It gets expensive REAL quick.

Don

Mark-Smith
March 7, 2011, 11:35 PM
Well, in that case I suppose I'll try and get the most accurate rifle $800-$900 will buy then, and if it can punch paper with any level of accuracy out at 1,000 yards, I will be a happy man.

I've been a bit leery of the Remington 700 variants, between the cost to make a stock one accurate to the fact there was any issue at all with the safety. A friend has a Savage rifle that I've really enjoyed shooting, and the Tikka T3 line seems to be nice as well. Any other recommendations?

USSR
March 8, 2011, 08:21 AM
Consider buying a used rifle. Very few used commercial rifles have a lot of rounds down them, and you can perhaps pick something up that has a good scope on it farely cheap.

Don

Tirod
March 8, 2011, 09:45 AM
Snipers in the field don't keep a reloading station set up back in the wire. They shoot boxed commercial made rounds provided on contract to specifications. When a new lot number comes out, they go through a complete resighting to assure they know the actual ballistics, not the old numbers from the last lot.

What happens on a competition range is like Vegas, it stays on the range.

MtnCreek
March 8, 2011, 10:15 AM
Mr. Smith,
When I started shooting LR, I started with a Savage tac 20" in .308. The rifle was not and still is not a true 1000m shooter, but it shot much better than I did at that range. Since then, my skills have grown greatly and I've added some real shooters to my collection. If I had started out with a $2k+ rifle, I don't think I would have seen the difference on paper. There are a lot of things going on between the rifle and target that impact accuracy more than the difference between a 1moa and 0.3moa rifle. If I were to start over and needed a rifle, I would get a used 700 police chambered in a rd that does not have too much bite on the back end; then I'ld mount a quality (+/- $400) scope, one piece 20moa rail and a good set of rings. A good (mid $ range) set up should outshoot you for a pretty long while. Also, that 20" Savage that I've had for 10+ yrs is my 'go to' rifle for deer, crows, yotes and just about anything else that needs shooting out to about 500 yds.
IMVHO, after you put a couple thousand rds down range, you'll probably be shooting as good as the mid price setup.

Mark-Smith
March 8, 2011, 10:36 AM
If I were to start over and needed a rifle, I would get a used 700 police chambered in a rd that does not have too much bite on the back end;

Any particular round you'd suggest? What is the 700 police usually chambered in? What does a used one run?

suzukisam
March 8, 2011, 10:46 AM
mark consider this. buy you a good savage, or howa or something that all the bells and whistles(barrel, stock, trigger) are available for. start shooting your factory 500.00+/- rifle. as you get better add a trigger, and then try to out shoot the gun. as your skills progress and so does the distance upgrade your rifle. I think the best advice I can give is to look up John Burns dvd set called "how to shoot beyond belief". most everything you need to know about caliber and rifle are covered in there. he will show you how to pillar and bed the stock float the barrel and do the proper trigger work to shoot 1000yrds. It's a very technical dvd. it's not for entertainment purposes. It's alike a school lesson. you'll walk away from it much more educated in rifles. in the end he takes the rifle that they worked on which is a out of the box 700 in 243, and has a 14 year old kid shoot 100 yrds. They replaced no parts on the rifle only tuned it. the kids had never shot taht far before and did surprisingly well

MtnCreek
March 8, 2011, 12:00 PM
Any particular round you'd suggest? What is the 700 police usually chambered in? What does a used one run?

As far as cal selection, some of the other guys here could give better info. I shoot all 30 cal stuff like .308 and 300wm. I think most of the LR comp shooters are more into the 6mm and 6.5mm stuff.

The last 700 police I bought was around $750 new. A used rifle will be just as good, provided the previous owner took care of it and didn't clean it with a uncoated rod (or from the wrong end). Savage is a good choice also. It should shoot as good or better than the 700, but trigger choices are more limited if you decide to swap it out.

Most out of the box heavy barrel Remingtons and Savages will shoot around 1moa and that's plenty good enough to learn LR shooting. You don't have to buy the most expensive base, scope and rings, but you'll be wasting your money to buy the cheepest. A quality (not most expensive) setup will give you the needed platform to learn on.

bailer
March 8, 2011, 01:54 PM
"The Tikka T3 I've been looking at comes chambered in the following - any particular ones that would be suitable for both long range accuracy and larger game hunting at closer ranges?

260 Rem 8
7mm-08 Rem 9,5
308 Win 11"
270 WSM 10
T3 300 WSM 11

6.5 x 55 SE 8
270 Win 10
30-06 Sprg 11"

300 Win Mag 11""

Any of those would meet your hog/deer and long range target options reasonably well. As was said above, a rifle light enough to hunt with isn't the best choice for target shooting. My Tikka SL in 30-06 shoots fantastic, but at <7lb scoped it's not the most pleasant to shoot off the bench for long periods.

Fullboar1
March 8, 2011, 01:56 PM
If you buy a Tikka T3 Varmint or Sako85 Varmint you dont need to upgrade the Barrel or Trigger as they are as good or even better then alot of match grade triggers and barrels.
I like the "You may get a accurate Tikka you may not"
The "Truth" is the Tikka has a 3 shot sub MOA guarantee with "any factory ammo" and the Sako has a 5 shot sub MOA guarantee with "any factory ammo" when you start using match grade ammo or handloads that accuracy will be a truck load better. Sako makes Tikka and they take that Accuracy Guarantee very serious as there biggest selling point is there accuracy. If you get a Sako or Tikka all you should need is a stock for it and a scope.
Also IMHO the 260rem is superior to the 300wm and 308win for long range shooting, here is a good article that explains why.
http://demigodllc.com/articles/the-case-for-260-remington/
Good Luck with it all

Fullboar1
March 8, 2011, 02:17 PM
We have a pretty big F-Class club where I live and a lot of the guys have the full blown custom built F-Class guns and the Sako 85's and Tikka T3's that have just been put in a custom stock and nothing else always mix it up with the best shooters and we have some of the best shooters around. You don't need all this match grade stuff like barrels and triggers if you get a Sako or Tikka as like I said IMHO it is as good as any match grade stuff.

bailer
March 8, 2011, 02:26 PM
I can believe that out of the higher end Tikkas. Mine is their Superlight in 30-06. I'm not typically a very good group shooter off the bench, and managed two groups right at 1/2" with the new Barnes 180grn load. The other factory ammo on hand it shot to .8". That was with my below average bench skills off cheap sandbags. I suspect there's more potential there. It's already more than I need from a 7lb 06, so I'll be focused on shooting from field positions here on out.

USSR
March 8, 2011, 02:47 PM
If you buy a Tikka T3 Varmint or Sako85 Varmint you dont need to upgrade the Barrel or Trigger as they are as good or even better then alot of match grade triggers and barrels.

A bit of hyperbole, don't you think, mate?:rolleyes:

Don

Fullboar1
March 8, 2011, 08:13 PM
A bit of hyperbole, don't you think, mate?

Don

Well Don mate the Sako's and Tikka's are not your Rugers, Remingtons and Howa's
How many Sako and Tikka barrels have you looked down with a bore scope and who makes a better trigger? Timney LOL

The Sako uses a hammer forged barrel and it is pretty dam good they also use that "same" barrel on the Tikka and the Sako trigger is as good as any match grade trigger unless you want to go super light. The Tikka's trigger is just a little different then the Sako but it is a real goer. How many people buy a Sako or Tikka and change out the trigger because it no good? None

There's an old guy at our club that wins most of the F-Class comps and he is one of the best shooters in Australia, He has the custom guns for F-Class but only gets them out for the big comps most of the time he just uses a Sako. He also kicks butt in the Bench Rest comps and he's got the 6mmBR's and 22PPC's custom guns that he shots at big comps but most of the time he uses a Sako 222 and except for the stock its standard and he wins alot of comps with them. I asked him why he doesn't use his custom guns all the time and he even said these are just as good as the custom guns and he's scores are about the same with the Sako's but he likes the Sako's because he said they are a little more of a challange to shoot.

USSR
March 8, 2011, 10:07 PM
How many Sako and Tikka barrels have you looked down with a bore scope...

Had a Sako, the key word here is HAD! Never could get it to shoot good. Finally took a muzzle gage to it and found out why - the muzzle on it was .003" over what a .30-06 should be. Didn't like it to begin with (the action was the hardest opening bolt action I have ever seen), so I promptly sold it and got a real rifle.

Don

1stmarine
March 8, 2011, 10:54 PM
for that purpose the .308 win will do just fine. Just get a good barrel and good bullets and work up a good load. the Magnum would be overkill, more expensive and will wear barrels, powders and your shoulder much faster.

TexasPatriot.308
March 9, 2011, 12:19 AM
apples and oranges...depends if you are a good shot, the .308 is time proven, less recoil, what woud Carlos Hathcock say???:evil:

HOOfan_1
March 9, 2011, 12:39 AM
Didn't Carlos use a .30-06?

Mark-Smith
March 9, 2011, 12:40 AM
what woud Carlos Hathcock say

If the good man were alive today, he'd probably say something about going with a 338 Lapua or something in .50 BMG. I seem to recall one of his more famous shots being made with a gun in .50 BMG.

There's a great 3 part interview with Mr. Hathcock on Youtube - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVJONj95so4. Until I heard him talk, I never realized what a good 'ol boy he was heh.

HorseSoldier
March 9, 2011, 01:10 AM
The Army considered the difference significant enough that all the .308 sniper guns are being rebuilt as .300 Win Mag. Apparently the long range benefits are there.

They do NOT shoot handloads, factory production only.

300WM has a much better trajectory and bucks wind much better, but at the expense of increased recoil and decreased barrel life. Neither of those may be a huge issue for combat use, but both are considerations for pre-deployment train ups and such. (When we started running the numbers on converting over to 300WM circa 2006 or 07 one of the issues that popped up was sending a team guy through our Group's SOTIC course with his issue sniper rifle in 300WM meant -- without a reduction in rounds fired in the course -- would mean the rifle would be going back to the factory for a new barrel at the conclusion of training.)

o Unforgiven o
March 9, 2011, 01:17 AM
West Texas, wide open spaces out there for long distance shooting, although I agree I wouldn't take an animal at 1,000yd's unless it was a big as T-Rex.
If it was as big as a T-Rex and you shot him with your .50 BMG he would still be the one taking you. ;)

1stmarine
March 9, 2011, 01:35 AM
The fellow member wants to punch paper at 1000 yards not to kill a T-rex.
and most times not "mo powa is mo betta", Accuracy is "mo betta"., specially if it is also easier on the wallet.

Cannot beat the big magnums though but then we are drifting away from his parameters.

Mark-Smith
March 9, 2011, 02:05 AM
Yeah, honestly, if I clamped it in a bench rest and pointed it at a target 1,000 yards off and it hit it every time I triggered a remote release connected to the rifle, that would be the caliber for me. If it can't hit the same spot within a foot or two at 1,000 yards locked into a bench rest, then I'd want to look for something else...

Something that has enough energy to make it that far - and it's all flat land anywhere you have 1,000 feet for shooting around here, but the end velocity, as long as it's 'enough', eh, it's just paper.

MtnCreek
March 9, 2011, 08:25 AM
a target 1,000 yards off and it hit it every time I triggered a remote release connected to the rifle, that would be the caliber for me. If it can't hit the same spot within a foot or two

In theory, a quality 'out of the box' rifle will shoot that and better; doesn't matter if it's .308, 30-06, 300wm......... The trick is you (or me) properly holding the rifle still enough to hit the same spot (within a ft) every time; then add the wind (probably not going to be a constant full value 10mph from rifle to target), spin drift, alt, temp, humidity, and several other smaller things that I don't understand.

It's You; Not the Rifle !!!

When you can make a quality rifle / optics shoot 1.5 ft groups @ 1000m, then you should consider upgrading the rifle or purchasing a better rifle. Until then, save the $ difference that you would have spent on a high dollar setup and spend that money on a spotting scope and A Lot of Ammo!

Master Blaster
March 9, 2011, 08:58 AM
Long Range F class competition information page: http://demigodllc.com/articles/introduction-to-f-class-1000-yard-competition/

Quote:

you need a load that will stay at supersonic speed to the target. As a general rule, a bullet that has a ballistic coefficient (BC) of 0.50 or higher launched at 2600 fps or faster will make it to 1000 yards. Great long-range loads generally have a BC of 0.60 or higher and are shot at 2850 fps or faster. In .308 Winchester, the Federal or Black Hills 175-grain, or Lapua 155-grain loads will work. In .300 Winchester Magnum, the 190-grain loads from Federal and Black Hills are good choices. Rifles that are built specifically for F-Class often use the long, sleek, and high-BC bullets in 6.5 mm and 7 mm calibers such as .260 Remington, 6.5-284 Norma, 7 mm Remington Magnum or 7 mm Winchester Short Magnum.

The issue for us non Govt employees, is the extra cost of the .300 win mag ammo even if you handload, and the fact that the barrel will have to be replaced frequently for match grade accuracy to be maintained.

pwrstrkd
March 9, 2011, 11:28 AM
I believe carlos used a model 70 in 270 win

HorseSoldier
March 9, 2011, 02:57 PM
No, he didn't.

pwrstrkd
March 9, 2011, 07:52 PM
What did he use? I thought for sure it was a 270win

HOOfan_1
March 9, 2011, 08:59 PM
One of the guns he used was a Winchester 70 .30-06

http://www.texasbrigadearmory.com/m70.htm

I googled it and found multiple links stating that, that was about the most "reliable" I could find though.

Mark-Smith
March 9, 2011, 09:18 PM
Ok, this thread has been totally hijacked :P

MtnCreek
March 9, 2011, 09:26 PM
Ok, this thread has been totally hijacked :P

Nope; it's been picked off from somewhere out there in the distance.

Mark-Smith
March 9, 2011, 09:29 PM
Ba-dum ching!

Percy
March 11, 2011, 04:39 AM
I'd stay at the .308 level and work up a load. I found my 700 really likes 45 grains of Varget in once fired brass with CCI primers and Sierra BTHP's in 168 gr. It likes them so much my wife - who didn't fire rifles until we started playing at the range with mine - assembles beautiful .375" groups at 100 yards. I haven't fired at 1000 yards yet, but it makes nice groups at 785, the longest I've shot it thus far.

I have humped my 14 lb. rifle around in the hills, and yes... it gets real heavy, real fast, but you just can't beat the stability of a heavier rifle. Although, if I were only going to pull the trigger once, I'd guess a 7 lb. rifle would be much nicer for a long walk. I personally won't know, I have a heavy one and I like it... A LOT!

BikerRN
March 11, 2011, 06:46 AM
My $0.02, for what it's worth:

Get a decent .308 caliber, it's a great round for deer, elk, and antelope, as well as smaller bear like those found in southern AZ and learn to shoot the bejesus out of it. When you can shoot 3" groups consistently at 500 Yards then look at moving up to the .300 Win Mag.

Right now my personal limit on long distance hunting shots is 300 Yards. I'm working on extending that by the next hunting season. I shoot a .308, and feel that for the distances I'm shooting and my ability, it's about right. When I get out to 800 yards consistantly, 5" group, then I'll look at moving up to a .300 Win Mag.

BikerRN

BigN
March 11, 2011, 07:44 PM
There is no comparing a 308 to a 300 win mag. That's like comparing a 22lr to a 22-250...

Mark-Smith
March 12, 2011, 03:49 AM
There is no comparing a 308 to a 300 win mag. That's like comparing a 22lr to a 22-250...

If you're talking raw joules, no. If you're talking about just putting lead on target at a fair distance, yes.

LoonWulf
March 12, 2011, 07:08 AM
I like the .300 more then the .308 (i think its ugly), but thats personal preference. The 308 will kill just as well as the 300mag untill ranges get beyond what most of us should be shooting at....and honestly farther then i think there is any reason to shoot. If your going to be shooting 100rds a day, or at 1k i think there are better cartridges then both.

Mark-Smith
March 12, 2011, 08:11 PM
If your going to be shooting 100rds a day, or at 1k i think there are better cartridges then both.

20 rounds in a day, maybe 40 in a blowout heh. For 1,000 yd ranges, what cartridge would you go for?

BoilerUP
March 12, 2011, 08:20 PM
For 1,000 yd ranges, what cartridge would you go for?

6.5x284 or 7mm Rem Mag...or any of their cousins (260 Rem, Swede, Creedmoor, 7-08, 280 Rem AI, or 284 Win).

Mark-Smith
March 12, 2011, 08:23 PM
I was looking at some .260 rem. cartridges in the store today and holding 'em up to a .308 round - is there any particular reason the .260 is better at long distances?

groundhog34
March 12, 2011, 08:35 PM
I shot a running rabbit at 1127 yards with my 300 Weatherby Mag. I aimed for the head but hit him in the heart so all I could eat were the rear legs. Next time I use a 308 and post the shot on you tube.

BoilerUP
March 12, 2011, 08:41 PM
Velocity & ballistic coefficent.

A 260 can drive a 139gr Scenar match bullet (BC 0.615) at 2800fps +/-, whereas a 308 pushes a 168gr Berger VLD (BC 0.473) around 2700fps +/-.

A lighter, faster, higher BC bullet has less drop and less wind drift...

Of course, a 300WM can drive a 208gr A-Max (BC 0.648) at 2900fps +/-...at the price of more powder, recoil, and muzzle blast.

snake284
March 12, 2011, 08:43 PM
Pigs don't require a cannon. I have shot them with a .223. Lots of people around here shoot em with a .223 or a 22-250. They ain't elephants. A 308 is a good caliber because of less recoil and that it fits a short action, making it more rigid and accurate. And it is plenty or more than plenty for pigs, deer and antelope providing you can get within reasonable range. But that goes for almost all guns.

However, there is a lot of hoopla about the superiority of a .308. It's a great round, but remember, a .308 is everything a 30-06 is and Less.It is not the miracle cartridge that it is put up to be. There has been a lot of accuracy development with the .308, but that's mainly because ammo's cheap and it was the military's chosen cartridge for several years. Remember, the 30-06 has more case capacity. like in a automotive engine, Cubic Inches makes Horsepower. The more cubig inches the more potential power. Well it's kinda the same thing with a .308 and a 30-06. And even more so with a 300 magnum. Yes, a .308 is used for long range target work, but partly because of the availabilty of guns and components. It is an accurate load, but the other 30s can be too. So for me, I would use a .308 for close work and the 300 Mag for long range shooting.

Also, Boilerup has it pegged pretty well. While the .308 is a proven long range round, ther eare better ones out there.

Maverick223
March 13, 2011, 01:42 AM
The myth of the all purpose rifle.That. The cartridge is good for both, the rifle not so much. My precision rifle (a DT-SRS chambered for none other than the .300WM) is a lightweight at a mere 16lbs or so...i'd not venture to carry that beast in the field.

I was looking at some .260 rem. cartridges in the store today and holding 'em up to a .308 round - is there any particular reason the .260 is better at long distances?Yep, better BC and higher velocity equals better performance at long range. It gets pretty darn close to .300WM performance (until you pass 1k yds, where that big ole slug starts to prevail) and does so at much less cost. It is planned to be my next LR build. OTOH, it doesn't hit nearly as hard, but it doesn't take much to punch a hole in paper. ;)

snake284
March 14, 2011, 07:42 AM
Rate of Twist of the rifling in the barrel. 1:10 means 1 turn it 10 inches.

Master Blaster
March 14, 2011, 08:39 AM
Apparently British snipers are unaware that the .308 is to weak to make those long range shots, they routinely use the .308 L96 to make head shots at 900 yards in Afghanistan.

Read here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/8376808/Dead-Men-Risen-The-snipers-story.html#

MtnCreek
March 14, 2011, 09:43 AM
I shot a running rabbit at 1127 yards with my 300 Weatherby Mag. I aimed for the head but hit him in the heart so all I could eat were the rear legs. Next time I use a 308 and post the shot on you tube.

Let us know when you post that; that's something I'd like to see!

BoilerUP
March 14, 2011, 10:25 AM
Apparently British snipers are unaware that the .308 is to weak to make those long range shots

Its not that the 308 is "too weak" at long range...its just that other cartridges do long range "better" (ie. less drop/drift and in the case of magnums, more energy on target).

Onmilo
March 14, 2011, 11:24 AM
The British also use some rifles chambered in 8.6X70mm Lapua Magnum,,,
I'm thinking that not all those fabulous 900 meter shots are done with 7.62X51

As far as pig and boar killing, you can get that job done with a .45 Colt lever action rifle if you're good enough to get close.

USSR
March 14, 2011, 12:01 PM
I'm thinking that not all those fabulous 900 meter shots are done with 7.62X51

As am I. Wouldn't be the first time the main stream media got it wrong.

Don

Mark-Smith
March 14, 2011, 02:26 PM
As far as pig and boar killing, you can get that job done with a .45 Colt lever action rifle if you're good enough to get close.

What about something in .260? I understand that will work for deer - will it work for boar as well?

Maverick223
March 14, 2011, 03:12 PM
Apparently British snipers are unaware that the .308 is to weak to make those long range shots, they routinely use the .308 L96 to make head shots at 900 yards in Afghanistan.I don't believe that a 900yd. shot is routine for any sniper utilizing any cartridge. Furthermore, there are better choices for LR sniping than a 7.62x51mmNATO, hence the Army's recent decision to field the .300WM.

What about something in .260? I understand that will work for deer - will it work for boar as well?Yep, it is a great cartridge unless you plan to have close encounters with very large boar (e.g.: greater than about 400lbs). It doesn't retain energy like some of the larger cartridges (like a big .300Mag), but it'll be fine for hunting at any ethical range and do will effectively kill paper at 1k+.

:)

Mark-Smith
March 14, 2011, 03:14 PM
Yep, it is a great cartridge unless you plan to have close encounters with very large boar (e.g.: greater than about 400lbs). It doesn't retain energy like some of the larger cartridges (like a big .300Mag), but it'll be fine for hunting at any ethical range and do will effectively kill paper at 1k+.

At the moment, that is all I foresee using it for - paper, occasionally paper at obscene distances, reasonably sized boar and one of these days when time and money allow - pronghorn.

HOOfan_1
March 14, 2011, 03:16 PM
As am I. Wouldn't be the first time the main stream media got it wrong.

Don

Article says most kills made over 1200m. The longest confirmed kill with a 7.62x51 is 1250m.

BoilerUP
March 14, 2011, 03:18 PM
I'd imagine a 140gr Partition from a .260 would work quite well for boars.

Maverick223
March 14, 2011, 03:18 PM
For that use I believe it is a perfect match. No need for a .300WM...unless of course you just want one, or have aspirations of reaching the 1mi. marker.

:)

Mark-Smith
March 14, 2011, 03:23 PM
unless of course you just want one, or have aspirations of reaching the 1mi. marker.

I do like things that go boom, and 1 mi with any accuracy at all is a lovely thought, but .300 WM is expensive, the barrel life isn't that long compared to other cartridges that work at that distance. I didn't know much about .260 previously, but the more I read about BC for various calibers, the more sense it made vs. .308 or .300 WM.

USSR
March 14, 2011, 03:41 PM
Article says most kills made over 1200m. The longest confirmed kill with a 7.62x51 is 1250m.

Yeh, that's what I really question. Using the current USGI sniper ammo (M118 LR), and assuming a velocity of 2750fps (my 26" barreled FN SPR gets 2718fps with this ammo), the 175SMK goes transonic at 1,250 yards, which is 1,143 meters. They make it sound like a "chip shot", when it is anything but that with the .308 at that distance.

Don

Maverick223
March 14, 2011, 03:53 PM
You are right that bbl life isn't fantastic with a .300WM, but honestly the .260Rem. doesn't do that much better. Replacing a barrel every 1500-2000 rnds is just one of those things you have to live with for a long range "flat shooter". The .260Rem. is, however, much cheaper to load for, so you can save quite a bit in the long run.

:)

6.5swede
March 19, 2011, 09:59 PM
Is shooting at 1000yds.......um......hunting?

Mark-Smith
March 19, 2011, 10:54 PM
Is shooting at 1000yds.......um......hunting?

Depends on what you're hunting and if it can shoot back at you, I suppose...

Honestly, for hunting game, as long as you're confident of getting a good hit from previous experience in those conditions, how much does the range matter?

6.5swede
March 19, 2011, 11:07 PM
Depends on what you're hunting and if it can shoot back at you, I suppose...

Honestly, for hunting game, as long as you're confident of getting a good hit from previous experience in those conditions, how much does the range matter?
Just a different perspective as I hunt primarily on the east coast.......Not that much open country here. If I'm consistently looking at 400-500yd shots on game here, my first thought is not taking a shot but I played the wind wrong, or scouted poorly, or at the very least...need to take a shower :D

Mark-Smith
March 20, 2011, 03:34 AM
Just a different perspective as I hunt primarily on the east coast.......Not that much open country here.

Up north, from what I've seen, I can barely imagine a clear shot of over 500 yards in most places that aren't farm land. Down here, well - if you had good enough glass, good enough of a gun, etc - you could probably shoot something five miles out. Now that gun might need to be an artillery piece, but hey ;)

BLB68
March 20, 2011, 06:52 AM
I'm certainly not as qualified as some of the folks in this thread to comment, but I'm going to put another gun out there:

T/C Icon or even Venture. They're both 1 MOA guns, with the Icon being offered now in 6.5mm Creedmor.

I've been toying with the idea of getting into more rifle shooting too, so any input on the T/C rifles and the 6.5mm Creedmor are welcome. Everything I've read on the 6.5mm Creedmor makes it seem like it's all that and a bag of chips. Is it?

Maverick223
March 20, 2011, 11:32 AM
I've been toying with the idea of getting into more rifle shooting too, so any input on the T/C rifles and the 6.5mm Creedmor are welcome. Everything I've read on the 6.5mm Creedmor makes it seem like it's all that and a bag of chips. Is it?While it affords near identical performance to the .260Rem., i'd skip the Creedmoor because it hasn't good brass available (Lapua now makes .260 brass) and it may become a forgotten cartridge before long. That said, you can probably trim and fireform brass from .260...but why not just start with it? On the other hand the new T/C Icon Precision Hunter looks like it would make a pretty decent precision rifle...personally I am hoping that they decide to come out with a .260Rem. in the near future (specifically in the Icon Classic with UltraWood).

:)

Zak Smith
March 21, 2011, 02:05 AM
Some thoughts on cartridge selection
http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-equipment/?p=2
http://demigodllc.com/articles/the-case-for-260-remington/

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