CT resident buying guns in MA? (gun show)


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kirklandkie
March 7, 2011, 04:09 PM
so this coming weekend there's a big gunshow up in springfield mass, i'm a ct resident and have attended in the past. despite my attendence i have yet to purchase a gun there. It occured to me today, i might not even be able to buy a gun at a MA gun show. I have a Military ID and a CT pistol permit, can i buy a gun in MA?
thanks

-kirk

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NavyLCDR
March 7, 2011, 04:12 PM
You can buy anything you want to in MA. Long guns can be transferred to you by an FFL in just about any state. Handguns will have to be shipped to an FFL in CT for transfer to you. Any private party sales with no FFL involved is illegal by Federal law, unless both the buyer and seller are residents of the same state. If you plan on buying a handgun, it would be best to have a receiving FFL in Connecticut set up in advance, and know what they are going to require to be included with the shipment (Driver's License, FFL, nothing at all, etc.)

o Unforgiven o
March 7, 2011, 07:41 PM
You can buy anything you want to in MA. Long guns can be transferred to you by an FFL in just about any state.

So you can buy a long gun at a gun show from an FFL without it having to be sent to an FFL in your home state?

NavyLCDR
March 7, 2011, 07:44 PM
So you can buy a long gun at a gun show from an FFL without it having to be sent to an FFL in your home state?

Yes. See 18 USC 922(b)(3):
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—
(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee’s place of business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee’s place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

kirklandkie
March 7, 2011, 08:11 PM
so in summary i can buy whatever they have?
this pleases me...
:D

-kirk

NavyLCDR
March 7, 2011, 08:15 PM
so in summary i can buy whatever they have?
this pleases me...

As long as it is transferred to you via an FFL.

Ignition Override
March 8, 2011, 03:00 AM
NavyLT:

About a sale not being legal unless both buyer and seller are residents of the same state:

How about in a gun show parking lot?

Many people have bought/sold not just Inside shows in other southern states, but even outside the building, whether waiting in line, or further out.

If the "Gun Show Loophole" begins at the building's entrance, or maybe at the outer edge of the parking lot, I've never seen the description of the physical boundaries discussed on the Internet or by anybody in person.

Frankly, other than plinking with a .22 several times when young, my interest in guns began late in life, at age 52 in '07. First gun show attended in summer '08.

skipjack
March 8, 2011, 05:44 AM
There is no gun show loophole. That is a term that was
created by the anti crowd to turn the public against gun
shows.

Illegal transactions are still illegal, even at a gun show.

Davek1977
March 8, 2011, 06:44 AM
Ignition Override, there IS no gun show loophole. That term was coined SPECIFICALLY to refer to sales between non-ffls, regardless of location. Those in favor of stricter gun control laws want EVERY sale to be thru an FFL, ELIMINATING private sales. Therefore, any transaction that would be legal in the building would likely be legal outisd of it, but any sale that would be ILLEGAL in the show would remain illegal regardless if done in the parking lot

NavyLCDR
March 8, 2011, 07:14 AM
NavyLT:

About a sale not being legal unless both buyer and seller are residents of the same state:

How about in a gun show parking lot?

Many people have bought/sold not just Inside shows in other southern states, but even outside the building, whether waiting in line, or further out.

If the "Gun Show Loophole" begins at the building's entrance, or maybe at the outer edge of the parking lot, I've never seen the description of the physical boundaries discussed on the Internet or by anybody in person.

Frankly, other than plinking with a .22 several times when young, my interest in guns began late in life, at age 52 in '07. First gun show attended in summer '08.

When two private parties (non-FFLS), transfer a firearm between them without using an FFL, and they are not residents of the same state, both parties commit Federal felonies. It doesn't matter where they are or what state they are in. It doesn't matter if they are related or not. If you have a gun, and are a resident of state A, and you give that gun as a gift to your son, who is a resident of state B, it is a Federal crime unless an FFL transfers it to him.

The seller violates 18 USC 922 (a)(5). The buyer or recipient violates 18 USC 922 (a)(3).

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

As others have stated, "gun show loophole" is a phrase that is completely made up by the anti-gun crowd.

Sam1911
March 8, 2011, 07:21 AM
About a sale not being legal unless both buyer and seller are residents of the same state:

How about in a gun show parking lot?

Many people have bought/sold not just Inside shows in other southern states, but even outside the building, whether waiting in line, or further out.


As NavyLT has said, if both the buyer and seller aren't residents of the same state, then both parties commit federal felonies. Doesn't matter if it's in the parking lot, in the gun show building itself, or in their living room at home. That's completely against the law.

A resident of one state CAN purchase a long-gun in a gun show in another state from a DEALER because a gun show is one of the two plcaes that an FFL dealer is allowed to make transfers. (The other being his official place of business.)

skipjack
March 8, 2011, 07:43 AM
All of this is subject to state laws, of course.

For example, as a Maryland dealer, I may only transfer
long guns to Maryland, Delaware, Virginia and West
Virginia residents. Handguns and other regulated firearms
(as defined by Maryland law) may only be transferred
to Maryland residents.

Different states will have different laws, in most cases.

I only bring this up because I had a resident of Kansas
insist that I sell him a gun some time back. This was
not legal, but someone at a gun show told him that it
could be done. He was not a happy camper!

Sam1911
March 8, 2011, 07:57 AM
For example, as a Maryland dealer, I may only transfer long guns to Maryland, Delaware, Virginia and West Virginia residents. Handguns and other regulated firearms (as defined by Maryland law) may only be transferred to Maryland residents.

Can you help me find the MD statutes on this. The MD laws are not easy to search.

NavyLCDR
March 8, 2011, 11:31 AM
For example, as a Maryland dealer, I may only transfer
long guns to Maryland, Delaware, Virginia and West
Virginia residents.

skipjack, please post for us a Maryland law that PROHIBITS you from transferring a rifle or a shotgun to a resident, of say, Montana.

The law skipjack is referring to is Maryland Code, Public Safety Section 5-204:

5-204. Purchasers of rifles or shotguns.

(a) "Adjacent state" defined.- In this section, "adjacent state" means Delaware, Pennsylvania, Virginia, or West Virginia.

(b) Resident of this State in adjacent state.- If a resident of this State is eligible to purchase a rifle or shotgun under the laws of an adjacent state, the resident may purchase a rifle or shotgun from a federally licensed gun dealer in the adjacent state.

(c) Resident of adjacent state in this State.- If a resident of an adjacent state is eligible to purchase a rifle or shotgun under the laws of this State, the resident may purchase a rifle or shotgun from a federally licensed gun dealer in this State.

Notice, however, the statute is PERMISSIVE only. The Maryland statute prohibits NOTHING. Isn't that odd? That's because prior to a 1986 amendment to the GCA of 1968, such statutes were required in order to ALLOW adjacent state sales of rifles and shotguns. In the 1986 amendment to the GCA of 1968, two requirements were removed: 1. The requirement for states to be adjacent to each other for rifle and shotgun sales by FFLs, and 2. the requirement for there to be a state law allowing such sales.

If skipjack would kindly read the ATF Newsletter to FFLs from August, 2004, he would see that Maryland's law is now interpreted as allowing a shotgun/rifle sale from a MD FFL to any other state resident, if the sale is not prohibited by the buyer's state law.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2004-08.pdf

CONTIGUOUS STATE – PART 2

In an article that appeared in the December 2002 edition of the FFL Newsletter, we advised FFLs that the “contiguous state” provisions of the Gun Control Act were amended in 1986, and that the GCA allows dealers to sell or dispose of a long gun to a resident of another state provided, (1) the purchaser was not otherwise prohibited from receiving or possessing a firearm under the GCA, and ( 2) the sale, delivery and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in the buyer’s and seller’s States.

The condition of sale relating to compliance with the applicable laws of both States cited above continues to cause confusion among dealers, particularly among those dealers who conduct business in a State whose laws presently contain language that allows “contiguous state” sales.

Historically, prior to the 1986 amendments to the GCA, many States enacted provisions in their laws that allowed their residents to acquire a long gun in a contiguous State. For the most part, these State law provisions were modeled after the contiguous state provisions of the GCA. However, even though the GCA was amended in 1986 to allow the sale of long guns to residents of any State pursuant to the conditions cited above, many States have not yet amended their laws to reflect similar language. ATF takes the position that if the laws of a given State allow its residents to acquire a long gun in a contiguous State, those laws also allow its residents to acquire a long gun in any other State where the laws of that State permit such transactions, unless the language contained in that State’s law expressly prohibits it residents from acquiring a firearm outside that State. Questions regarding particular State law provisions should be referred to your local ATF office.

Notice that Maryland State Law expressly prohibits NOTHING.

skipjack
March 8, 2011, 06:39 PM
Very interesting reading. The situation I referred to above
involved an AR-15 receiver, which is a regulated "firearm"
under Maryland law. It is treated by the Maryland State
Police the same as a handgun. I may not sell it to anyone
who is not a resident of Maryland, unless it is transferred
to an ffl in the person's state of residence.

I am certainly no expert...nor do I wish to be the test case
for proving a case before the Maryland courts.
Perhaps you are right, NavyLT, but I will allow another
licensee to test the waters.

Sam1911
March 8, 2011, 06:59 PM
Maybe a less confrontational question might be, how did you come by that information skipjack? Is this something that MSP tells FFLs? Is there a guide they give you that covers these things?

(Police departments and agencies certainly have been known to go a step farther than the law specifically required.)

ontheroad
March 8, 2011, 08:19 PM
Massachusetts is still behind the Iron Curtain. One is not allowed to possess even a primer or empty cartridge case (components = ammunition) without a note from the State. My guess would be that just about every FFL at the show would (if they even complete the transaction) not allow the buyer to walk away with the gun and instead insist on having it shipped to a CT FFL for fear of violating one of the dozens of confusing State laws. Also, a CT resident taking possession of a gun in MA without having a state-issued nonresident license to carry may find himself in a bit of a spot.

Run your question by these folks, they are very knowledgeable about the intricacies of MA laws: http://www.northeastshooters.com

newfalguy101
March 8, 2011, 10:07 PM
For what its worth, when the ATF revised the 4473 this last time by adding "other" as an option, they essentially made any over-the-counter sales of receivers to NON-residents illegal. Or to phrase it more correctly, stripped receivers must now be handled as if they were handguns.

To the OP, as stated above baring a MA. state law, you are good to go if buying any longgun that is also legal to buy in CT

Jolly Rogers
March 9, 2011, 07:58 PM
Maryland State police are the guys that tried to retroactively charge a speeder for video taping the over the top arrest procedures employed by a plain clothes cop. Glad I moved out of Maryland decades ago.
Joe

LemmyCaution
March 10, 2011, 04:29 PM
Massachusetts is still behind the Iron Curtain. One is not allowed to possess even a primer or empty cartridge case (components = ammunition) without a note from the State. My guess would be that just about every FFL at the show would (if they even complete the transaction) not allow the buyer to walk away with the gun and instead insist on having it shipped to a CT FFL for fear of violating one of the dozens of confusing State laws. Also, a CT resident taking possession of a gun in MA without having a state-issued nonresident license to carry may find himself in a bit of a spot.

Sadly, ontheroad has the correct answer here.

MA law does not allow possession, by anyone, of anything firearm, ammunition or even reloading components without a Massachusetts FOID.

I've run up against this before in MA, as a resident of VT. I attempted to purchase .22lr ammunition in a MA border town and was turned away by the gun shop. The owner informed me that he could transfer arms to a VT FFL, but otherwise was unable to sell me anything without an FOID.

highlander 5
March 10, 2011, 04:48 PM
You can't buy ammo or components with a non resident LTC in Ma. Any firearm purchased would have to be transfer via an FFL Very strict penalties if caught here with fierarns,ammo high cap mags or components. No offense but you may be better off staying home

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