[Cob]

Which caliber would be the better rifle for an elk, if limited to the two calibers?

the .270 Winchester shoots well, has excellent optics, in a Win. Model 70 featherweight. It's proven excellent on deer & antelope. The maximum bullet weight is 150 grains.

The 7.62x54 is a Mosin Nagant 91/30. Bullet Weight optionsare 180 - 208 grains. It's unproven except on paper, but have a bit of time for practice, and some extra ammunition.

Any thoughts on this comparison?
(this hunt is going to cost enough already, and can't afford a new gun... also have a 30-30, didn't throw that into the equation)

[nathan]

Isnt it the Russian hunters use the 54 R to hunt big game, grizzlies , SIberian tigers and caribous in their area of responsibility ? As long its within reasonable distance and it hits the vital areas, they are dead meat.

I dont have a .270 but have confidence in my Sako M 39 with 180 gr SP and 203 gr SP to make those kill shots. As long its within 100 -150 yds, i think they wont run far.

[saturno_v]

It's unproven except on paper, but have a bit of time for practice, and some extra ammunition.



Ask the Russian hunters if it is "unproven".....;):D

[nathan]

They said, its your confidence to make that kill shot .

[Cob]

The mosin has been a project that i have been working on, and have been impressed with the action... I know that i under estimated this rifle at first glance, mainly due to the low price tag...

The .270 hits well, but have had to shoot more than 3 times on the biggest 10 pt. that ever harvest, that would have dropped the 100 lb doe in her tracks. It also took 5 shot on a 400 lb hog. I like it but would like to throw a heavier bullet.

[H&Hhunter]

Cob,

That's a nice old PF M-70 you've got there in .270. My dad had one for years and killed, at the time the new world record Siberian Ibex with his.

I've killed a couple of elk with a .270. It's every bit as effective as anything else in it's class. I too like a bit heavier bullet for elk but the .270 does must fine if you do your part.

BTW most larger animals will run for some distance with a lung or heart shot no matter what you shoot them with. If you want stuff to just fall over you need to adjust your aiming point slightly. Move form a behind the shoulder shot to a in the shoulder shot. You will lose a bit more meat but your critters will fall over much quicker.

400 lb hogs....I've seen smaller ones take as many or more .375H&H bullets in the chest and not fall over immediately.

[rbernie]

AFAIK, a properly constructed 150gr .277 bullet is plenty of medicine for elk. I'd worry far more about picking a platform that I know will put the bullet were I want it than to sweat the terminal ballistic differences between 270 and 7.62x54R.

I dunno why you have had issues with the 270 in the past, but most every multiple-shot hunting experience that I've had has been attributable to either poor shot placement by me or a mismatch between the bullet and game (e.g. using too hard of a bullet on thin-skinned game or too frangible of a bullet on heavier game).

[fallout mike]

I've killed numerous white tails with a Browning A bolt .270. They were all one shot kills. Most dropped in their tracks. As mentioned, shot placement is the main thing.

[CoRoMo]

I've killed a number of elk, and I ONLY hunt with .270 Winchester.

[brnmuenchow]

I have both, and for Elk within 200 yds.(no scope) I would use the 7.62x54R it is a proven stopper, no problem. I would however go with some heavier grain SP's. The .270win. is also capable of taking an Elk with proper bullet selection and shot placement.

[pikid89]

go with the .270 and practice practice practice

[Smoovbiscuit]

I say 7.62 nagant for style points :D

jk. I just love nagant's. From what I have read 7.62x54r has similar ballistics to .308 win which I can imagine would do the job. I've never hunted elk though.

[hardluk1]

A nieghbor is a diehard 270 man and has taken 3 nice elk with his 270 and shoots a barne x bullet in it this year he shot some barnes house brand ttxs 130gr or something like that. He said all 3 had major shoulder damage and did not travel but a very short distance. But shoot the rifle that shoots the best for you at distance and on a cold barrel. One of his elk was hit at 320 yards and one at 25 yards.

[Cob]

The buck was tough & old. I shot thrice, and found 3 bullet holes, but he ran a little farther than i was comfortable with. (posted a pic of him here:)
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7004687&postcount=44

The hog was even tougher...and was twice the size of the biggest deer. I was happy to have been in a tree stand, I've seen bears smaller than that hog, and it took 4 guys to load him in the back of a truck, and a front end loader to remove hime. He smelled so bad, that i dug a hole and buried him.
The landowner wanted them removed, as nuisance species.
(both were killed with 130 grain bullets, BT,SP)
I figure an elk would be twice the size of the hog, and did not want to take any chances...

What bullet selection would be best for .270

[Cob]

H & H , What do you mean by initals PF?
I love the gun..it's been my favorite rifle for over 10 years now...

[pikid89]

as for bullets in .270?
i would go with the time proven Remington Core Lokt 130/150 grain, whichever your rifle shoots better

[Frozen North]

I would think that the model 70 is a fine sporting rifle with better accuracy, less weight, and better looks. The optics will make a longer shot much more accurate.

The Nagant is a war club, a fine war club, but still a war club. I know that I would not hesitate at taking a 200-300 yard shot with a model 70 .270 with good optics. That may be a bit of a stretch with crude military Nagant sites.

Either caliber has enough oomph to get the job done without a doubt.

I would set a target about the size of an elk's vitals out at 300 yards and let the two rifles tell you who gets the job.

The Nagant gets you style points for sure. I plan on hunting white tail deer with mine just to irritate a couple gun snobs in my camp this year ;)

[H&Hhunter]

Cob,

PF stands for Push Feed. Your Model 70 was produced during the time that Winchester was producing push feed action rifles. Anything pre 1964 would have been a CRF or controlled round feed. Just about anything post about 1991 (I believe) will be a Classic CRF action with the exception of an abortive attempt at CPF that was a complete flop in the last years of the New Haven guns.

While your rifle is very nice and the later PF action guns were very smooth they are not worth much on the used market. You can buy older PF model 70's dirt cheap.

The easy way to tell the difference is to look at the side of your bolt if it is round with no extractor arm attached it is a PF if it has an extractor arm the length of the bolt it is a CRF. The CRF offers more positive extraction and once the bolt picks the round up from the magazine it controls it while it places it into the chamber. IE if you were to fall or the gun was bumped there is no way the round can fall out or disengage the bolt face it also makes it nearly impossible to get a double feed.

A PF does not offer any of those advantages which is why the CRF action is the preferred action on a M-70 rifle.

[natman]

The Winchester, push feed or not, is a much better hunting rifle than a Moisin and you can get much better ammo for it. Get a premium bullet 150 grain load and go hunting.

[hardluk1]

The very best bullet you could shoot would be a Barne's X in any of there forms for the 270 or for the 7.62 would look to have some limits as to what is avalible.

[shaggy430]

Due to bullet selection, I would choose the .270 hands down. Also, I'm not sure where you are hunting, but believe me, if you have to climb up and down mountains you'll be much better off carrying the lighter M70 featherweight. After my first elk hunt of carrying a 10+ pound rifle I went out and bought a Tikka T3 Lite.

[Rancho Relaxo]

I love my mosins, but the accuracy and weight of my .270 make it a hands down better choice for hunting. Maybe you don't need benchrest accuracy for an elk, but I feel much more confident knowing my .270 loads group at .75 Moa rather than 2.5.

[CGOLIVER]

My father and I both managed to kill Colorado 5points last year with a old Model 70 Featherweight in .270Win. both were one shot kills, mine was DRT. We were using 130 grain Barnes TSX. Also, there is a pile of antlers in the shop from my Dad and his dad that testify to 130gr Winchester Power-Points working as well.

Enjoy your hunt, elk season is what gets me out of bed in the morning!

[Cob]

Thanks a bunch for the posts. I have some 150 grain hunting bullets that i'll use with the .270. It's really my favorite anyway, and it's the most accurate that i own. BTW it is PF, and i picked it up very reasonable about 10 years ago.

[brnmuenchow]

I agree go with what you are most comfortable with, and no not all mosin nagant M91/30's accuracy are the same, mine happens to be about as accurate as I could hope for in an old WW2 battle rifle (very accurate) and the .270Win. is a fantastic choice I have one and love it. I don't however have a featherweight model mine is a supergrade and it is pretty heavy as well. I inherited it from my grandfather, and he purchased it used back in the early '70's. So for me weight wise both the Mosin, and Model 70 with a scope feel about the same carry wise.

[CoastieShep]

5 shots for a 400 lb hog?
Last year an 8 year old kid took a 380 lb pig with a .410 slug, 1 shot. Seriously, no BS.

[frankenstein406]

A guy brought in a elk his son shoot at about 400 yards and had no problems.

[Cob]

It was a big boar, had thick shoulder plates. Maybe he would have went down after the first shot, but he sure kept walking as if un affected. I aimed and pulled the trigger a couple more times, just to be on the safe side. I'm sure he would have eaten a person if he could have found them asleep. It took a front end loader to move him. (the attached pic is not the same pig,friend from south FL sent him to me..., but close in size). As i said earlier, in FL the hogs make the bears look small. I suspect an elk would be a little bigger than a hog, and i would not want to taek any chances... I'm sure i could kill one with a .22 lr with good shot placement, maybe even a sling shot, or high power air rifle of right quality... But have limited it to the 2 choices listed.

[H&Hhunter]

Cob,

The hog in the above picture was shot in Australia I'm guessing? You just don't see to many Toyota Land Cruiser flat bed pick ups in the good old USA. If you shot a hog that size in Florida I'd sure like to see a picture of it.....

[Sav308tac]

The mosin was designed for 1,000meters, if u like your moa on paper u should try for blood. i have shot many whitetail with mine, its a nice change n weaponry, kill kill kill. google the mosin sniper history.....

[Cob]

I killed the big hog at a place called Bienville Plantation, in Hamilton Co. FL. An active mining operation owned mineral rights on land maintained for years with a high-fence operation in place that had a mixture of exotic game animals in it, including Axis Deer, Sitka Deer, Fallow Deer, Whitetail deer, and Russian Wild Boar...

The high fence had to be removed due to the PCS Phosphate active mining operations moving in, and FL FWC mandated that all exotics had to be gone by a specified date. I got an invitation to help "clean out the pen", about 30 days before it was scheduled to come down,(brother in law worked for mining company and informed me about it) and I took the hog at no charge. I have several pictures that were taken, but the pics are of poor quality due to no flash on the camera. I'll post them when i get back to office tomorrow. you can't tell much detail except it's bigger than i am.

As the fence was being taken down, the loader operator swears he saw a small sitka doe disappear onto the adjacent property. i always wondered just what might have escaped.

[Robert]

I suspect an elk would be a little bigger than a hog,
Unless hogs stand near horse height at the shoulder, Elk are much bigger in physical size than a hog.

Elk= Horse with antlers.

So wait, you buddy shot that hog or just sent you the picture?

[Cob]

Buddy sent me the picture... claims he was there when it was shot, but he's been known to exagerate... I liked it none the less, and saved it.
The pic of the hog i harvested is in the attached picture. I took over a dozen pix with a cheapo camera with no flash. The hog is suspended with a front end loader on a JD tractor, and was big. There are truck lights shining for light, and it came out terribly. I probably should not even have posted it, but best that i had - you are looking at him suspended by back legs, and fron shoulder with "pads" is what is lighter colored... his front feet are protruding away from me. never weighed him, but I'm 200 lbs, and he was easliy twice my weight. This is the about the only animal that ever made me question the .270 win, to date.

[brnmuenchow]

If I had a scope on my Mosin I wouldn't have any hesitation about using it beyond 300 yds. Like I said before mine is really accurate with just the iron sights the only thing holding back mine past 150-200 yds. is my eyes! I do love the .270win. caliber it's great because if I am with someone and they don't want to shoot the Mosin I hand them The .270win. and I don't have to worry about them missing their target. ( I think the fireballs coming out of the Mosin is what scares them or due to the fact it was built in the 1940's and they think it's going to blow apart when they fire it.)-- personally I think they have a better chance of spontaneously combusting than that rifle blowing up!

[H&Hhunter]

Buddy sent me the picture... claims he was there when it was shot, but he's been known to exagerate..

Was your buddy in Australia when the hog was shot?

[Cob]

Was your buddy in Australia when the hog was shot?

No, He was in Immokalee, FL. He sent it to me about three years ago... I have seen one almost as big as that since living in FL, but he was walking around a pen, not hanging. If i knew how, i could post a video of hog walking around a pic-nic area, hog was the the size of a small cow. A man drove up and shot the hog at 6' range with a 12 gauge with #7 bird shot (all he had), and the hog walked off virtually un-phased. It occurred on Twin Rivers State Forest, (part of the area i work), and a co-worker took the video as a bystander. The hog was more black, domesticated looking, and in this area, hybrid domestic/ hogs seem to be common, & seem to get bigger than the regular piney woods rooters.

i can't really say if it was shot in Australia or FL, but the point was I suspect an elk is bigger than Most HOGS, but there are HOGS IN FL BIGGER than the AVERAGE ELK :what:
http://snopes.com/photos/animals/bighog.asp

[H&Hhunter]

It's not the size of the hog rather the Toyota FJ 70 series truck that it's hanging from. They are not imported nor have they ever been imported into the USA. They don't meet EPA or DOT regulations and are almost impossible to legally import. If there were 50 of them in the US I'd be shocked.

Given that, there is a slim to zero chance that hog was shot in the USA. As far as the size of hogs goes. Yeah there might be a few truly wild hogs running around the state of Florida that weigh more than your average elk. A cow being 350 to 500 lbs and a bull being 700 to 900 lbs, 900 being an absolute whopper. But they are extremely few and far between. Now there are most likely a bunch of pen raised put and release hogs that will go 500 + lbs but wild hog don't tend to get that big as a rule.

I've killed hundreds and hundreds of Feral hogs in Texas and a big mature boar will weigh under 300 lbs generally speaking. Once you get over 300 lbs you are talking about a true monster as wild hogs don't carry extra meat and fat like a pen raised hog does. They are thin and athletic and carry very little body fat in comparison to a pen raised porker.

[JDMorris]

Use the Winchester, I will never own a Nagant unless they get cheaper, or I am given one..
I don't even like the .270 caliber, but use it..

[BikerRN]

As much of a 7.62 fan as I am I think I'd opt for the .270 unless the Mosin Nagant shoots so much better that it would be foolish not to use it. Put a scope on the Mosin and take both rifles out to the range multiple times.

One day start with the .270, cold, at 300 Yards. The next day start with the Mosin at 300 Yards. Keep doing things like this, and switching which gun you start with, not neglecting the 100 Yard and 400 Yard targets. Do this enough and you will know which gun you should take.

For me it's a choice between the .243 and the .308. Both work well for elk in my opinion. If I really want to play I'll get a .300 Win Mag out.

BikerRN

[gamestalker]

I spent many years hunting with the .270 and have no doubt about it's proficiency for big game. I've killed bear, elk, deer, and antelope with the same bullet. When I first began hunting with the .270 in the early 1980s I hand loaded using the Speer 130 grain Hot Core BT. My most memorable kill with this combination was a bull elk in which my only shot was from the rear, not a desired shot placement. The bullet followed the entire spinal colum from the butt, to just the base of the neck. When I recovered the bullet and had cleaned it up, I had a well mushroomed 117 grain bullet.
So my choice is clearly the .270 win. hands down. But if all I had was the 7.62x54r I would have complete confidence in it's ability to drop just about anything, especially if it is that rediculous long barreled Nagant. I think that is the M94/31 or something like that. Those are a high velocity long range shooter from what I've heard.

[Cob]

It's a 91/30 ... I glassbedded the 7.62 x 54 action with probed 2000 from midway, it was my first time, and turned out nice. I still don't have the confidence in it that i do the .270

[Ironclad]

The hog in the above picture was shot in Australia I'm guessing?

I thought it was a funky lookin little pickup too. Here's the pig.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,523821,00.html?test=latestnews

[Cob]

Thanks for posting that link. It's definitely a large pig... Sort of glad to know it didn't come from FL., I wasn't trying to mis-lead, but fell for the hoax, as i received it.
The biggest one that i have seen was at a place called Suwannee River Ranch, in Branford, FL - It's a 350 acre ranch where animals are brought in & raised, then sold to the local "hunting" market, generally from the big cities south of here.
http://www.suwanneeriverranch.com/

All of the guts, bones, and scrap meat left over from the "hunts" are discarded into a large tub on the back side of the property.(remains of buffalo, axis deer, other hogs, elk, goats, etc...) A huge gray hog was thriving on the mess, and weighed well over 1200 lbs. That animal was one of the most extreme, biggest , almost evil lookng creatures i have ever seen. Death seemed to just be a part of him, and he was huge. There is no doubt that he would have eaten me or you given the chance. I believe he would have devoured anything.
and was "as big" or bigger than the one previously posted from Australia... I know they exist, which is why the "hoax" was so easily and readily believable.

[Ironclad]

No problem. I wasn't trying to call you out or anything. Mainly just satisfying my own curiosity.