13 yr old poses ethics question...


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Cranky CJ
March 8, 2011, 01:09 AM
My 13 yr old is taking Hunter Safety this week. Tonight was ethics and the question posed to the adults was; "If your child shot the wrong animal, doe for a buck or some such, would you turn them in?"

I haven't answered him yet. I already know my answer, yes I would- with a lengthy explaination about the difference between a mistake, the dishonesty of purposefully shooting the wrong animal, and trying to cover up a mistake- along with the consequences of each.

What say ye of The High Road? Would you turn your own kid in for shooting the wrong animal. this is just an academic discussion.

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WTBguns10kOK
March 8, 2011, 01:19 AM
this is why I hunt alone...we all make mistakes and too many DNR agents are anal beyond belief...this outta be a greeeeat thread

shiftyer1
March 8, 2011, 01:36 AM
No I don't think I would, i'd raise hell about it because I think it would do more good at a young age then a police record. I'm assuming game violations show up just like other things.

Police (game wardens) aren't like they used to be. They see too much BS from all ages. In my youth they'd read you the riot act and send you home, I don't think it's like that today.

Besides I can come up with a whole lot of punishments that are alot worse than a fine to pay. Which I would have to pay because my son's allowance just wouldn't cut it.

jhngardner367
March 8, 2011, 02:30 AM
I would,and I have.Three years ago,my son shot a doe.He had fallen asleep in his ground blind,and five or six deer wandered within range,just as he awoke.He raised and fired,but ,instead of a buck,the doe dropped.I've always tried to teach him good ethics,but I was still nervous when the DNR offficer got there.I told him about it,and he talked to my son,then he pulled a pad out of his pocket,and started writing.By the way---my son was 21 at the time!He handed my son the paper,and asked him why we called the DNR.My son simply said"It was the way I was taught." The paper? It was a simple release-of-game form!He even helped drag it to the truck Most DNR officers I've met,can tell the difference between truth/lies,so just be honest about it.

Gromky
March 8, 2011, 03:32 AM
Police (game wardens) aren't like they used to be. They see too much BS from all ages. In my youth they'd read you the riot act and send you home, I don't think it's like that today.

I hope they're different, I was stabbed in the knee by a F&G officer as a boy scout decades ago! Of course, it was an accident, and he missed the soft spots. I apologized more for being too close than he did for nearly crippling me.

My dealings with game service have always been positive, other than being behind a skinning knife. When I decided to start hunting a few years ago, there were no records of me passing hunter's safety decades ago. A simple call, and they fixed it. I've talked to them a couple times in the field, and they were often the best source of advice possible. Last year I watched a moron ride up on a F&G station on a four wheeler. Holding a a loaded rifle with one hand. They let him by with a warning.

Yes, there are officers just out to nail you, but most I've seen really care. My honest response is that I would walk into the local office and ask to speak to an officer. If he seemed understanding, I would broach the subject. With the end goal that he talk to the child about being careful, and how much trouble it could cause. It may not be the textbook answer, but that is reality.

Almost every F&G officer, or Forest Service ranger, or what have you...is concerned with education and really cares about protecting the forest. As long as you're not a dick to them. They often deal with being shot at and lied to. Everyone they approach in the field is defensive. So yes, they may be mistrustful, but they also have a lot of leeway if you approach it in the right way.

Gromky
March 8, 2011, 03:44 AM
jhngardner367 I'm very glad that worked out for you, and that's how things should work. If someone reports a mistake, especially for a child or young adult, it makes no sense to prosecute. It just encourages people to lie and ignore the rules. I think every member of F&G I've met would have done something similar. Scaring the crap out of them might be good, but that just makes the relief more powerful.

I have a friend from New Mexico, when she was there they had exceptions to game laws for extreme hardship. She had a friend who was in the Forest Service. He was often shot at, and actually armed himself in a way that would make your average suburban family very nervous. Yet he might meet a destitute poacher who was honest, drive the game back to home to determine truth, and might even help butcher it.

shiftyer1
March 8, 2011, 03:45 AM
Jgardener, that is a good story. I wish I had the same experience. But in my experience I was straight up and not defensive at all when stopped in my boat because I hadn't done anything wrong, all my ducks in a row. I got a ticket because my bass was 1/2 to short for the lake standards. Seriously? 1/2 inch!!! I'd be really panicked if it was a deer because the fish wasn't cheap!

Friendly, Don't Fire!
March 8, 2011, 05:42 AM
I mistakenly shot a fox out of season back about 25 years ago, I thought it was a coyote (don't laugh).

Anyway, I ended up calling the game warden who said he would meet me where it happened.

When we met (the next day as I recall), he asked the time of day and it was near dusk. He said he would write a report, but that my name would not be in it and he thanked me for telling him. He said, with the sun just right, he could understand my mistaking a fox for a coyote.

It was an uneasy 24 hours or so until I finally met up with him.

I guess it reinforced the fact of making sure I know what it is I am shooting. I don't have children, but if I did, I would most likely have answered that I would report it.

buck460XVR
March 8, 2011, 07:27 AM
Good question.

How as a parent you handle this could affect the way you child hunts and the ethics he has for hunting the rest of his life. In most cases honest mistakes, especially by youths, are accepted as that by game wardens. Most would rather have you report the mistake so they can retrieve the game instead of it rotting in the woods. Accepting the fact that it's okay to make a mistake and walk away from it is not the image that we as hunters want to represent. As in everything in life there are consequences for the actions we take. Young people need to realize this early on, not only in hunting, but in all aspects of life. Bein' easy on them when they screw up generally just adds to the problem.

chas08
March 8, 2011, 08:23 AM
"If your child shot the wrong animal, doe for a buck or some such, would you turn them in?"
A resounding NO. Admonish? Yes. Forbid to hunt alone on my property? Most probably. Trusting any law enforcement agency to do the right thing toward family? Never.

FTG-05
March 8, 2011, 08:36 AM
A friend of mine and I went about 10 years ago on my hunting club lease. While on the way in, we discussed the various changes to the hunting season over the last few years (he was deployed overseas for several years); one of which was the more liberal doe season here in north Alabama. While I never said that it was doe season, by implication it was clear that he thought they were.

So he shot a doe.

We took it into the deer processing place, they said "Oh well." Later that night I called the hunting club president and told him what happened. Basically, it was miscommunication on my part.

Never involved the Game Warden or Wildlife people, mostly because they wouldn't have cared. They've been trying to kill more does in our area anyway.

yyz
March 8, 2011, 05:01 PM
once again this depends on the area. were i live i would call and explain what happened. an honest mistake is an honest mistake, at least to the local game warden. this has not always been true. 10 years ago i would have to say no way!

Arkansas Paul
March 8, 2011, 06:01 PM
No, I would not.
If someone was out killing illegal animals left and right with no reguard for the law, I would turn them in. But an honest mistake? Nope. I live and let live. It wouldn't even have to be my child. I wouldn't turn anyone in for that. A lecture on responsibility and the law would be in order. If I thought it was intentional disreguard for the law, well that's a whole different animal altogether.

jhngardner367
March 9, 2011, 01:55 AM
I wasn't turning him in,I was teaching him honesty and responsibility.True,we could have walked away,and pretended it wasn't us that did it,but my hunting ethics won't permit it.I don't hunt what I don't eat,or use.I don't use anything but a bp to huntbecause I truly believe in "1 shot-1 kill". If I don't for some reason drop the animal and it runs off,you can bet that I'll follow a blood trail on my hands&knees,in darkness,to determine the animal's condition( I've done so , by the way !).I t is my responsibility,as a parent,and a sportsman,to teach my son good ethics---in ALL things. I honestly believe that it was the honest,open way that we ex plained the situation, that kept us out of a citation.

exbiologist
March 9, 2011, 10:23 AM
We have turned in the kids that have hunted with us. Twice, teenagers have shot spike elk on cow elk permits in my group. Usually the fine is pretty minor($75), but it's a matter of principle. They need to understand what they did wrong, they need to identify the animal more clearly, and they need to know they can't get away with an accident like that. And if it's truly an accident, the punishment isn't severe.

But you NEVER cover up an accident like that for them. Asking for trouble in the long run.

H&Hhunter
March 9, 2011, 11:16 AM
My daughter shot a small buck by accident on a her doe tag this year. I called the game and fish, the officer thanked me and her for our honesty. He told her that he was happy to see young people involved in hunting we kept the deer and were on our way. No ticket just a 15 minute educational talk.

In Colorado I've seen several cases where guys screwed up shooting the wrong animal. In every case the guys that turned themselves in were given a small fine they were either allowed to keep the animal or were issued another tag and allowed to continue to hunt.

Now say you shoot a spike during bull season and try to sneak it out or walk off and leave and get caught. Now you are talking $3,500 fine plus a 3 to 5 year suspension. But that is Colorado they tend to have a very good attitude towards guys that turn themselves in and they really try to promote youth hunters. They know people make mistakes especially kids.

Now I also know that there are some states where you need to avoid the DOW at all costs as they have an entirely different attitude.

Robert
March 9, 2011, 11:29 AM
Honesty is the best policy. The CDOW even goes so far as to say they understand that mistakes happen, they just want to know about it. And as H&H said if you are honest with them you may even get to keep the animal.

leadcounsel
March 9, 2011, 11:45 AM
I won't comment on whether I would or would not. I am an honest law-abiding person and would like to believe I would. However, there is so little trust in Government authority, abuse of same, and ability of the Government to take away rights or impose harsh fines or criminal liability that it discourages honest dealings. I can understand why one would consider NOT confessing or reporting. You'd have to balance the factors at the time. I think no two situations are the same.

While not directly on point - last year my two dogs got in a fight over a popular dog bone. In the process of breaking it up, I was bitten by one. I did the right thing by going to the hospital to get it cleaned. The doctor was more interested in the dog than cleaning my wound. The questions were almost accusatory in nature. Next day, animal control left a note on my house door saying that I had two options - self quarantine my dog for 10 days or they would take my dog and destroy it to test for rabies! I was furious!!!!! Absolutely furious!!!! I love those dogs and was just out of my mind with anger at the system. You can make all the arguments about why that's a good policy, but that to me was just a violation of my trust and taught me to NOT report stuff ...

This ain't the 'good old days' of human interaction. It's beuracracy that seems intent on crushing the little guy with either civil or criminal sanctions.

As an attorney, I would give you the following advice: ALWAYS take the 5th Amendment and never fess up to anything unless it's in your best interest. This isn't a lesson in eithics or right vs. wrong. This is a lesson on survival, frankly. Your child should understand that he's supposed to follow the law and shoot only what's on his tag; but it's a foolish lesson to teach him to go out and tell the law that he commited a crime. You have to counterbalance that by teaching him that he must always be honest in his dealings with family and people in general; but with the Government take the 5th.

CoRoMo
March 9, 2011, 12:02 PM
+1 leadcounsel

I'm aware of an individual here in Colorado who had a cow tag and thought he was 100% sure that the animal in his cross-hairs was a cow, so he pulled the trigger. It turned out to be a spike bull whose spikes were just a little too long to be allowed under the cow tag. He called the DoW and they came, issued him a fine, and took away his animal. That was the first elk he ever shot, maybe the last one too. He was fairly soured after the response of the officer.

pat86323
March 9, 2011, 12:13 PM
Its tough, if there was a set and specific way of dealing with that problem my position would change. A few years ago a friend of mines wife killed a button bull elk (antlers about an inch long) on a cow tag. He called G&F and they were really nice to him and his wife. I cant remember if he allowed them to keep the button bull or issued them another tag but it was favorable and all was forgiven.

I also heard of a kid accidently shooting a doe during the juniors buck hunt. They nailed him to the wall. Fined him and his dad, took the rifle, and likely turned that kid off of hunting for life.

This inconsistancy makes me sincerely hope that i NEVER have to deal with them at all. I am however an ethical person and do my best to do what is right/legal. Im not real sure what id do in that situation. Hopefully i never find out.

Nuke8401
March 9, 2011, 12:21 PM
No, I would make him turn himself in, with me there of course. It’s what my dad did when I made any mistake I needed to own up to. I see this as no different than breaking a window with a baseball, or BB in my own specific case.

David E.

jbkebert
March 9, 2011, 07:33 PM
My dad turned me in twice in my life. On my first pheasant hunt I shot a hen when several birds got up at once. The 2nd time when duck hunting was a point system I think I had a Mallard and a Woody then shot a canvasback. I both cases the game warden set me down and gave me a stern talking to but no fines. Granted I was around 10-11 years old when this happened.

I like to think my father brought me up well and tought myself and my brothers to respect wildlife in general. Now that I am a father of 4 children two who are hunters now and two little girls that show a genuine interest in becoming hunters. I like to think that I will follow in my fathers footsteps and lead by example for my own children. We do hunt with others but I am very very picky about who I will hunt with and even more so when it comes to my own children. So in truth yes I will turn my kid in for breaking game laws.

I also am a hunter education instructor so I think I should hold myself to a higher standard and practice what I preach. I know most of the game wardens in the state of Kansas or have at least met with them. I can honestly say they are a pretty down to earth group. A couple are a little more hard ass than the others but hey that's life.

I watched a game warden who check a dad and son who were fishing for a license. The dad did not have one and was fishing illegally. Instead of writing tickets and coming unglued. The NRO words were to the father sir go put your fishing pole in the truck and come back down here and watch your son fish. The NRO followed by saying I want to see you guys back here fishing as much and possible and next time you need to show me that you have a license. No yelling no problems he gave the guy a break and show the son that sometimes police are not the bad guys. I have hears similar stories for several other NRO's. On the other side if you cop a attitude with them the game wardens around here will be more than happy to make your life miserable and your wallet empty.

H&Hhunter
March 9, 2011, 07:44 PM
I'm aware of an individual here in Colorado who had a cow tag and thought he was 100% sure that the animal in his cross-hairs was a cow, so he pulled the trigger. It turned out to be a spike bull whose spikes were just a little too long to be allowed under the cow tag. He called the DoW and the came, issued him a fine, and took away his animal. That was the first elk he ever shot, maybe the last one too. He was fairly soured after the response of the officer.

Did they issue him another hunting permit? Which is SOP in Colorado. If so I am not getting the down side what you described is exactly what you'd expect the DOW officer to do. They confiscate the illegal animal, they issue a ticket usually it costs about $50.00 or $75.00 and they reissues a tag for the species. What's the big deal did he expect to get off Scott free.

If he would have not reported it and killed a spike and tried to transport it home or left it to rot they would have SMOKED his butt if they'd have caught him.

SPW1
March 9, 2011, 11:35 PM
No, I would not. As I see it if it was an honest mistake there is little to be gained by calling a warden, they are stretched pretty thin anyway, and if you do call one and he happens to show up with an attitude it has the potential to be a real hassle too. I would give the kid a serious lecture about the need to know if the game is legal or not before they shoot and let it go at that.

41 Mag
March 10, 2011, 06:13 AM
I owuld make the call. I have been around several GW's in all of my outdoors related activities, and they have all been the same, be upfront about an accident and they are understanding, try and cover it up and face the fiddler.

I have been fishing while they checked everyone around us and not even said hi to us, as well as been in deer camp while they went through several others coolers and trucks and such, with a similar response. Every time when asked about our stuff, they replied with something like, "I know the difference in someone who is only here for the weekend, over someone who does this all season long, and don't want to ruin that opportunity".

While every one of them is different, they all have a job to do and leniency can be dealt out as well and easily as the max fines. For most of them they would much rather have an honest mistake reported, especially something as simple as a short spike buck mistaken for a doe. Now take that same situation, and not call them, have them roll into camp while your skinning it out or already have it in a cooler and your looking at what ever minimum they want to hand you, and any discretion they might have had, probably just went out the window.

lizziedog1
March 10, 2011, 07:13 AM
I knew this guys back in California that was an avid duck hunter. One day he was sitting next to a pond when a warden approached. The officer wanted to see his shells to make sure they were nontoxic. As he stood up, several shells fell into the water and sank.

He was issued a fine for having illegal ammo. This is a very serious offense, it is a Federal Crime, he was at Federal Refuge. The warden believed he dumped the ammo into the water to hide it from him. He did get a lawyer and had to go to Fedeeral Court.

I am sorry, but I moved out of the area before learning of the outcome of his case.

H&Hhunter
March 10, 2011, 10:10 AM
California Law Enforcement...

Do we need say more?

hogshead
March 10, 2011, 10:20 AM
No I would not .For the rest who said they would, do you call a state trooper when you are riding with you wife and she speeds?

Loyalist Dave
March 10, 2011, 10:38 AM
Some of the answers I think so far are not what folks would do, but what they believe they would do. When confronted by the actual circumstances, they might not. Not all, just some. :)

I was taught a poacher was a person who deliberately violated game laws. The person knew it was wrong according to law, and did it anyway. Not the same as the person knew the law, thought they were complying with law, and later discovered they had made an error.

I think it's my job to teach my child ethics and to follow the laws. I don't think I would call in a mistake by my 13 year old if he/she accidentally shot the wrong sex deer for the tag that they could fill. He's not poaching, and if I know my child well enough to go hunting, I should be able to judge if it was truly a misidentification. I don't think I need an official member of the government to appear, for me to make my point and teach the lesson. It's partially MY FAULT if the child incorrectly identified the target. IF I need a stranger with authority to make my point..., I haven't taught my child, and shouldn't be hunting with my child in the first place.

I would take the child's firearm, and they would be done for that hunting season. I would still go out hunting, without them, to prove the point. Kids hate to be left behind when there is fun involved. The kid would have to "earn" that firearm back in the off season, to go out the following year with me.

When your juvenile child gets into the liquor cabinet or into the beer or wine, will you be calling the police for underage drinking? :D

In the poaching question, it was a mistake, but in the liquor question the kid didn't mistake the tequila or Miller for lemonade; the kid knew what was up.

When your 16 year old drives over the speed limit, though is keeping pace with surrounding traffic, do you call the cops? Do you even notice? :D

IF you see your kid racing down the street in the car you gave permission to drive, will you take the keys and the kid's driver's license, or will you also call the cops so they get a ticket? :D

So does ethics only apply to the full extent of the laws when hunting, but outside of hunting, different ethics apply? :scrutiny:

Ethics in this thread refers to "the moral fitness of a course of action", which is different than the dogmatic adherence to the wording of a law.

Therefore in-and-of-itself, it would not be a violation of ethics for a person to omit reporting an accidental violation of hunting regulations by a child.

LD

Art Eatman
March 10, 2011, 11:04 AM
Sticking to "my kid": I'm not about to call any outsider in if he accidentally messes up. The key word is "accidental". I'll deal with all the moral and ethical issues involved. That's a parent's job.

If he were to wilfully do wrong, then that right there is a sign that I've been failing in how I've been teaching him. If I thought that such an event were likely, odds are that he wouldn't have been along on a hunting trip, anyway. I only hunt with people whom I can trust.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
March 10, 2011, 11:57 AM
My younger brother was hunting legally with a friend of his, hunting doves at about 16 or whatever age was legal at the time in PA to hunt on the State Game Lands without parental assistance.

He shot what he thought was a dove and they proceeded to put it in his friend's game bag (part of the hunting vest, in the huge back pocket).

A PA game warden must have heard the shots as suddenly my brother and his friend were confronted by this guy. He asked what they were hunting, had they gotten anything and my brother admitted he had shot a dove -- the very reason for being there! The game warden asked to see it and told him it was not a dove but instead was some kind of rare migratory species with a fancy name like a yellow-billed-brown-gray-miniature cookoo (something no one but the game warden had ever heard of -- except for possibly the Audibon Society)!

Anyway, long story short, he was going to make an example of my brother and gave him some kind of ridiculous fine (back in the early 70's) which I recall to be around two hundred and some dollars! In the 70's, at that time, gas was about 30 cents a gallon. Multiply today how much a gallon of gas is and you would multiply by 10. So, multiply his $200+ fine by ten to get some kind of picture of how much this game warden was fining him!

I remember he worked it off and paid the fine. Fortunately, he had no other punishment or penalty beyond that (he could still hunt and still obtain licenses).

So, those here who state they would NOT report it, I can understand why! I suppose if I asked that brother this question his response would be something like "are you crazy? Forget it, cover the thing over and it never happened!"

So, in a way, it goes to show just how we can easily look at those over us as being authoritative and wanting to SHOW THAT AUTHORITY at all costs!

youngda9
March 10, 2011, 11:58 AM
In Colorado I've seen several cases where guys screwed up shooting the wrong animal. In every case the guys that turned themselves in were given a small fine they were either allowed to keep the animal or were issued another tag and allowed to continue to hunt.....But that is Colorado they tend to have a very good attitude towards guys that turn themselves in.
Not the case for me. I shot an illegal bull a couple years ago in CO. I had a bull license($525), and saw a legal bull. I got the scope on him and accidentaly shot a different one, a spike, the head was hidden behind a pine tree. I couldn't believe it when I got up to the animal. They must have moved while I grabbed my rifle and got on target...it was in the exact same position of the legal bull.

We discussed what to do, and decided to do the right thing and report it. The warden took my $525 license, gave me a ticket($75 if I remember correct), and took the meat. Told me I could go purchase another license if I'd like, YEAH RIGHT. I asked him if this policy of taking the meat, giving a ticket, and voiding the license would encourage people to do the right thing by the law...he wasn't sure.

He claimed that every dead animal had to have a tag associated with it...fine, but don't take the meat and fine me on top of it.

I would have been perfectly happy if he said well that's what you got with your license and left me with the meat and had to pay a fine. But I got screwed on all three fronts, license, meat, fine....for doing the right thing by my honest mistake.

If something like that happens again...I guess the cyotes will get fatter and the warden will be none the wiser.

+1 Leadcouncil....take the 5th when it comes to the government. There is NO upside.

CoRoMo
March 10, 2011, 01:55 PM
Did they issue him another hunting permit? Which is SOP in Colorado.
I don't recall that being part of the story. Could have though. I do recall him being fined the $75, so I totally agree, that's basically a slap on the wrist, even if he wasn't issued another permit. I'm not necessarily on his side, I hope to make clear. This was just one of about four total stories that I could tell in this thread. You can refer to a post I made in a very good thread of your own... HERE (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=6992317&highlight=violating+hunting+ethics#post6992317). It makes me crawl out of my skin when someone has no qualms about violating ethics, regs, and especially laws. Now, I'm no angel, but I just don't want to have any part of it if I can help it, and I can.

But when it comes to accidents and family, I suppose the very best thing I could do FOR my child is to turn him in. With the slap on the wrist that he'd likely receive in our state, that decision would be a little easier. What I would not want to risk is giving my child a criminal record or having his rifle confiscated, over an accident. Not likely, but not impossible, I have to assume.

Arkansas Paul
March 10, 2011, 04:17 PM
Nice post Loyalist Dave. I agree with everything.

FTG-05
March 10, 2011, 06:15 PM
quote:

"Ethics in this thread refers to "the moral fitness of a course of action", which is different than the dogmatic adherence to the wording of a law.

Therefore in-and-of-itself, it would not be a violation of ethics for a person to omit reporting an accidental violation of hunting regulations by a child.

LD"

Excellent. This is very good point: Ethics <=> the law. We've seen several examples in this thread alone on top of the examples in the excellent post quoted above.

Good thread.

Thanks,

41magsnub
March 10, 2011, 07:11 PM
I don't trust them. My hunting partner had a really bad experience with a game warden. He had just moved to MT. He went out hunting and shot a nice whitetail buck. He tagged it and threw it in the trunk of his Buick. He did the right thing and stopped at the game check station and opened up his trunk. While waiting he helped the game warden haul an improperly taken animal off the roof of a truck.

Then the warden got to his car, took one look at the tag, and yanked it out of the car. Then he started writing a ticket. The offense? He had slit the date on the tag instead of notched it. Clearly my buddy was trying to do the right thing and he could have driven right past the check station and gotten away with it. He took the ticket to court and the judge threw it out, but he still lost his deer and the court fees.

SPW1
March 10, 2011, 08:48 PM
Then the warden got to his car, took one look at the tag, and yanked it out of the car. Then he started writing a ticket. The offense? He had slit the date on the tag instead of notched it. Clearly my buddy was trying to do the right thing and he could have driven right past the check station and gotten away with it. He took the ticket to court and the judge threw it out, but he still lost his deer and the court fees.

I have seen pretty much that same sort of thing too here in texas. A lot of wardens write tickets for improperly filled out tags or no entry in the "log book". If the right tag is on the animal but the guy forgot to cut the date out or make an entry in his license log I think that is a pretty lame reason to write a ticket. In fairness they sometimes let people off without a ticket too depending on their mood. No I have never personally got a ticket from a warden, I am careful enough that they never have got me on anything. Even so I have had them check me out extremely throughly, and once I even had one make me stand around while he called in my rifles serial number because in his own words "it looked pretty fancy" and "I don't see many like that". He seem to think I might have stolen it or something just because he had never seen one like it. The ironic thing was it was a completely stock remington 673 and I have many far fancier guns. The rib on a rifle threw him I guess. Game wardens in my humble opinion are pretty much like cops. About two thirds are reasonable people, but about one third are big time jerks on a power trip that enjoy pushing people around for no reason and treat everyone like criminals just because they can get away with it as long as they don't cross any legal lines. The fear of getting one of the jerks is why I would be extremely reluctant to involve a warden unless the situation was quite serious.

grubbylabs
March 10, 2011, 09:01 PM
Well I have thought about this for a day or so after having read some of your responses.

Here is what I think.

One, why is your child hunting alone? If your child is under age and very young a parent or close family member who is an experienced hunter should be with them, helping them make good choices. This is a big responsibility for a child and they should not go it alone. Imagine your child making a mistake and shooting a person? How would you live with yourself. It happens every year so don't say it isn't likely.

Second I don't care who you are, you have no business shooting something unless you know for sure what you are shooting. Again this is how people get shot. You deserve to loose the meat and pay a fine. There is a reason they make the fine painful in most area. Besides as said above you should be with your child, and you are responsible for what they do. If you have a antlered only tag of any kind or a antler less tag of any kind you have no business shooting an animal unless you can see its head.

I don't get why parents don't take responsibility for their children, If you take a young child hunting, you need to be there for them to hunt not for you to hunt. regardless of who had the tag, it should be first and foremost about the child.

So if you put your child in a position to shoot the wrong animal then yes they need to face the consequences.

This is a prime example of what is wrong with society, no one is taught to be accountable any more. If you do it wrong own up to it.

SPW1
March 10, 2011, 09:15 PM
This is a prime example of what is wrong with society, no one is taught to be accountable any more. If you do it wrong own up to it.

I think the issue here is a difference in perspective on what is right and wrong and what is deserving of punishment and what is not even if the law is violated. I doubt anyone would call the cops on themselves if they accidentally ran a red light or a stop sign. If it was an accident and you realized the light or stop sign was there just as you were rolling through and yet no one got hurt I bet you would just be glad that nothing serious came of it and that no police officer was sitting right there to ticket you. Hopefully it would also be a reminder to be more careful in the future since it could easily result in something more serious. A lot of us view accidental game violations the same way. Not desirable, something to be corrected, but not exactly the sort of thing to turn someone over to the law for unless they have a really bad and decidedly unsorry attitude about it.

ilbob
March 10, 2011, 10:19 PM
I think the bigger question is can a 13 YO understand there are many gray areas in life that do not have an absolute answer.

Maybe the real answer is you tell the kid you would rat him out, knowing full well that what might actually happen could be different.

I see this kind of thing, especially if unintentional as similar to speeding. People do it all the time. It does not harm anyone. Why involve law enforcement? No good will come of it other than as an attempt at a life lesson. And the lesson learned may be totally different than the one you hoped for.

Some of the answer is going to be dependent on one's knowledge of the way these kind of things are usually handled in the area the incident happened in. If the state treats it like the minor incident that it actually is, then there is more incentive to be forthcoming.

There is also a more practical answer. if the chance of getting caught is pretty high, or the kid is likely to brag about it, rat him out.

jbkebert
March 10, 2011, 10:33 PM
Not desirable, something to be corrected, but not exactly the sort of thing to turn someone over to the law for unless they have a really bad and decidedly unsorry attitude about it.

This is one thing I am trying to teach my kids. If they screw up yes there will be a price to pay. Granted my children are still pretty young and I am right there with them while hunting. This year my son Caleb who is 10 was deer hunting with me in the stand right beside him. He was shooting a .45 cal muzzleloader in which he has practiced alot out to around 75-80 yards or so. I don't load this gun very hot at all given recoil and his smaller frame. A group of does came into and wandered into within 60-65 yards. He asked premission to shoot and I of course granted it. So there I am fixed on a lone fat doe with my bino's waiting the forever and a day (more like 5 seconds) for him to pull the trigger. Gun fires, smoke clears nothing???. How could he miss at that range I wondered. It turned out a lone buck had appeared at 200plus yards away that I did not see. Caleb seeing the buck and I guess thinking a frontstuffer shot the same as his .243 and took the shot.

While everything being legal he had a either sex any season tag. Caleb got his little rear end chewed big time. Now if he had alerted me to the presence of the buck we would of held off and waited for a better shot. The fact that he took it upon himself to make the choice got him in deep with me. He got to miss the rest of deer season. Kids can not possibly know all of the game laws. Heck I teach them and don't know them all. We as parents need to show our children that you follow instructions and the law in life. A simple would be harmless choice could in fact lead to big trouble.

I often describe ethics and morals in HE classes as the person we are when no one else is around. I think far to often people are faced with a choice while in the woods. That trophey buck or elk appears out of range. How many times have shot been taken with that little voice in the back of your saying I think I might be able to get him. If I miss well no ones around to give me any flak about it. Deny it all you want I have eaten tag sandwiches at a high cost. On those hunts I saw NICE animals well beyond my effective range and that thought popped into my head. I can honestly say that I have never given in to the thought mostly because of the values and lessons taught to me by my father.

Covering up for your buddy or your kid does nothing but hurt yourself, your kid, your buddy, your sport. A painful lesson is a lesson remembered.

jim357
March 10, 2011, 11:10 PM
I am not a hunter so maybe my opinion is worth less than the opinion of a hunter. However, there is no way in the world I would report this. My reason is exactly what has been said by leadcounsel. I do not trust the government or anyone who works for the government. I feel that I could handle the learning issue better than anyone else. I do not need anyone else to help. I even feel that I can explain it without telling him of my distrust for government which could backfire into something worse. There is another thread posted here about a child reporting to school that the child was afraid of the guns at home. Most felt that could lead to problems with police and child protective services. In this case one over the top warden could make more problems than would be solved. It is just not worth the chance.

grubbylabs
March 10, 2011, 11:29 PM
In our state a speeding ticket is not a felony neither is running a red light. However killing a big game animal out of season can wind up being a felony if not handled appropriately.

The situation that jbkebert described with his son is a failure to communicate on his part. He should have made sure that he and his son were on the same page. Somehow I think that mistake will not happen again. He seems like a quick learner from what he posted there.

But again we are talking about taking a life here, destroying something with a gun. No one has any business shooting any thing without knowing for sure what they are shooting. If it walked behind a tree wait till it comes out in view again. To many people get caught up in the killing part and don't realize there is more to hunting than killing an animal.

Mistakes like this are why people are shot every year. Who wants to set their child up to live with that for the rest of their lives? Not me.


I know mistakes happen even when you are doing it right, things happen, jbkebert story is a good example of a father who was doing it right and still wound up having a problem. But just because he did his best to prevent a mistake does not mean he should help his child potentially commit a felony.

SPW1
March 11, 2011, 12:04 AM
In our state a speeding ticket is not a felony neither is running a red light. However killing a big game animal out of season can wind up being a felony if not handled appropriately...... I know mistakes happen even when you are doing it right, things happen, jbkebert story is a good example of a father who was doing it right and still wound up having a problem. But just because he did his best to prevent a mistake does not mean he should help his child potentially commit a felony.

Apples to oranges. Nobody was talking about deliberately shooting game out of season. What was being talked about was a kid shooting a doe instead of a buck or visa versa. I don't think that is a "felony" in any state.

But again we are talking about taking a life here, destroying something with a gun. No one has any business shooting any thing without knowing for sure what they are shooting. If it walked behind a tree wait till it comes out in view again. To many people get caught up in the killing part and don't realize there is more to hunting than killing an animal.

Again, the discussion is about minor and accidental game infractions, killing a buck for a doe or the reverse. A dead deer is a dead deer. There is little moral difference between killing a buck or a doe, the only difference is regulatory one. In the past few years much of east texas has gone to a minimum antler spread required on bucks for them to be legal to shoot. Errors on judging that are exactly the same sort of deal, and believe me plenty of people make errors in judging spread while dealing with buck fever. Is that the end of the world? No. Am I or should I turn someone in for something like that if they are not all boasting about it and shooting technically illegal game on purpose? No. The point of government isn't to harass people for an occasional honest mistake, and good friends and neighbors don't take it upon themselves to call the law in over things that aren't that big of a deal anyway. Common sense must be applied, and it isn't common sense to drag the law into it every time someone violates a minor regulation accidentally.

lizziedog1
March 11, 2011, 11:22 AM
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

Ankeny
March 11, 2011, 11:35 AM
If something like that happens again...I guess the coyotes will get fatter and the warden will be none the wiser.

I suppose that is a pretty common attitude. Just be prepared to pay the consequences when you get caught. Abandonment of a big game animal is one thing the courts in Wyoming have shown no tolerance toward. Maximum penalties are the norm.

wankerjake
March 11, 2011, 11:36 AM
Errors on judging that are exactly the same sort of deal, and believe me plenty of people make errors in judging spread while dealing with buck fever. Is that the end of the world? No. Am I or should I turn someone in for something like that if they are not all boasting about it and shooting technically illegal game on purpose? No. The point of government isn't to harass people for an occasional honest mistake, and good friends and neighbors don't take it upon themselves to call the law in over things that aren't that big of a deal anyway. Common sense must be applied, and it isn't common sense to drag the law into it every time someone violates a minor regulation accidentally.

Exactly the way I feel.

Sticking to "my kid": I'm not about to call any outsider in if he accidentally messes up. The key word is "accidental". I'll deal with all the moral and ethical issues involved. That's a parent's job.

If he were to wilfully do wrong, then that right there is a sign that I've been failing in how I've been teaching him. If I thought that such an event were likely, odds are that he wouldn't have been along on a hunting trip, anyway. I only hunt with people whom I can trust.

Yep

Arkansas Paul
March 11, 2011, 11:41 AM
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.


I'm pretty sure we aren't talking about evil here. We're talking about an honest mistake. I think everyone here agrees that if someone is intentionally shooting illegal game with no reguard for the law, that they should be turned in. Making a mistake isn't evil. Intentionally doing wrong is. Big difference.

wankerjake
March 11, 2011, 11:47 AM
This is a prime example of what is wrong with society, no one is taught to be accountable any more. If you do it wrong own up to it.

I agree a lot with this statement, but in this situation I don't feel the law needs to be involved. Discipline should probably come from the parent in this situation. That doesn't mean you have to get G&F involved. Owning up to dad and the rest of the hunting party isn't any easier than owning up to a game warden.

On the other hand, I'm not saying I wouldn't under certain circumstances. Like what if this was a second offense? Still an accident but the lesson wasn't learned the first time. I may give G&F a call then to see if they can get the message across. But on a first offense, I doubt it. That's my job to teach it.

CoRoMo
March 11, 2011, 12:03 PM
I understand the idea, I even agree in large as to the principal you are presenting. I think we all are on the same page as far as deliberate violations of hunting laws, versus honest accidents and errors.

I would just like to know which crime you would then choose to commit AFTER the accident occurred. Would you leave the game animal to waste in the field or would you sneak it out and transport the contraband?

At least, both are crimes here, and it isn't too difficult to be caught in the act of either. As much as I agree with not involving the authorities in my personal parenting duties, I don't want to blatantly commit a crime in front of my children and have them think that it is okay.

Your thoughts... :)

wankerjake
March 11, 2011, 12:31 PM
I would just like to know which crime you would then choose to commit AFTER the accident occurred. Would you leave the game animal to waste in the field or would you sneak it out and transport the contraband?

At least, both are crimes here, and it isn't too difficult to be caught in the act of either. As much as I agree with not involving the authorities in my personal parenting duties, I don't want to blatantly commit a crime in front of my children and have them think that it is okay.

Your thoughts...
I hear you. It's a sticky situation for sure, and I'm not saying it's wrong to turn your kid in. That's you decision as a parent and I won't fault you for that. It's your kid, not mine. I'm think either decision can be correct. I just personally wouldn't do it. Either way the hunt would probably be over for my kid. A lesson needs to be learned that shooting the wrong animal is not to be tolerated and is not OK. It's a preventable accident. I just think that lesson can be taught by myself.

Regarding the meat...the attitude wouldn't be "we are commiting a crime." It would be more like "you screwed up and now we have to get the meat out." It would depend on the situation and how likely it would be to get it out without being caught. Sticky situation.

CoRoMo
March 11, 2011, 12:57 PM
I completely agree with your first paragraph.

The thing is, where/how I hunt, getting the meat out is a half day's job. There'll be plenty of time for the kid to ask, "Dad, what happens if the warden stops us with this deer/elk?". The time it takes to get an animal out, is enough time for him/her to realize that we are breaking the law. If we get it all back to the house and I punish him/her for their mistake, they still know that we then broke the law to cover it up.
...how likely it would be to get it out without being caught.
I don't want my kids to think it's okay to weigh those odds. That's my hangup. That's what makes me think that I might prefer to turn them in. I don't know. I would absolutely hate it and it would go against everything inside me. I would not want to turn them in at all.

cls12vg30
March 11, 2011, 01:56 PM
I'm not a hunter, and haven't fished since I was a teenager. But the idea of turning my child in to the authorities for a mistake like this makes my head spin. If I took my son hunting, you can bet he would be well versed in the relevant regulations, and the reasons for them. If he shot an illegal animal by mistake, he would deal with me for his mistake. If he did so on purpose, he would deal with me in a very different situation. But turn him in to government authorities? Inconceivable! (And it does mean what I think it means.)

buck460XVR
March 11, 2011, 02:53 PM
A lesson needs to be learned that shooting the wrong animal is not to be tolerated and is not OK. It's a preventable accident. I just think that lesson can be taught by myself.

If this situation arises it is because that lesson was NOT taught.....or the importance was not emphasized enough. Odds are, you HAVE taught the lesson correctly and the situation will not arise. I know as a kid I passes up opportunities many a time because I was not sure. I would have gladly faced a game warden and explained a mistaken identity long before I had to face my dad. It was the fear of my dad's repercussions that made me take the time and make sure. I got a feelin' my kids feel the same way. Sorry, but blowin' it off as an accident and walkin' away from it teaches another lesson. In this case I don't think it's a case of turnin' your kid in as a criminal. It's about makin' your kid fess up and take responsibility for his mistakes. I know many here have a big distrust of law enforcement people, but from my experience, this is not a situation that will result in a fine or a loss of license or guns.....especially when it's a youth that's involved. It's a case of letting the proper authorities know there was a mistake made and giving them the opportunity to retrieve the game or to give you legal possession.

Regarding the meat...the attitude wouldn't be "we are commiting a crime." It would be more like "you screwed up and now we have to get the meat out." It would depend on the situation and how likely it would be to get it out without being caught. Sticky situation.

Again...in most states, taking the meat or leaving it lay is a crime. Either way, you are compounding a simple mistake by committing a crime. In doing so in front of your child, you are telling him/her it is okay.


In the hunter safety class I help teach, we teach young and old alike that ethics is doing the right thing when no one else is around. We spend one class period with the local game warden in attendance. During the question and answer period with the warden, this question comes up often. The answer is always the same. As long as the warden decides it was an honest mistake, and it was a mistake of legal sex or age of a hunt able species, most times it's matter of a harsh warning and the retrieval of the game. Generally the wardens would rather know and have this chance to retrieve the carcass as to leave it to rot in the woods.

CoRoMo
March 11, 2011, 02:57 PM
Well... as thorough a teacher as I can be to my kids, they WILL make mistakes. Not because the teaching didn't occur, just because they are human.

Arkansas Paul
March 11, 2011, 03:11 PM
I would just like to know which crime you would then choose to commit AFTER the accident occurred. Would you leave the game animal to waste in the field or would you sneak it out and transport the contraband?


I'm not leaving a game animal in the woods to rot after it's shot. To me, that's a worse offense than making a mistake in the field. Wasting a game animal is abominable to me. If you kill it, you eat it. (With the obvious exception of predators and nusiance animals. I don't think anyone is gonna eat a yote).

suzukisam
March 11, 2011, 04:18 PM
since when does the state or federal government decide what is or isn't moral?
I'm an ethical hunter and the thought of wanton waste makes me mad....BUT Accidents do happen and to all of you who say you have to be sure of what your shooting your right.. partly. sometimes accidents do happen.. for example the duck regulations have gotten to the point you can't hardly tell what to shoot anymore. I can tell a species of duck by the sound it makes and the way it flies, half the time you don't even need to see the birds colors to tell. but what happens when there was one woody flying with 6 mallards, and you accidentally clip it? most of the time I can't identify every bird in the flock I just shoot the ones I do identify. The local game warden, and there is only one where I duck hunt is the biggest A hole you've ever met. he waits till about 5 minutes after legal shooting time and drives his four wheeler through our spread and spends 45 minutes going through every pocket of your vest and opening every box of ammo and reading each shell just hoping you got one in your box that wasn't steel. I've been through this several times... he ruins your morning hunt every time. Now I'm all about game laws, but when did the governments right to search you become higher than your right to hunt in peace! also would you report you shot one too many woody's to that guy? I won't and didn't! I hated it and would much rather have had it go to good use, but the guy is a control freak looking for an excuse to confiscate your guns and impound your truck! We watched him do it to a guy for forgetting his plug in his shotgun.

So if the conservation department says that you can't shoot anymore 30 minutes before it gets dark is that automatically the moral shooting time? because they said so? I stop then because it's not worth the hassle for me, but I don't exactly think they should decide such things. I don't like the government as a general rule, and when GW has the power to search your person and vehicle without cause I think things have gone too far!

suzukisam
March 11, 2011, 04:44 PM
also I just wanted to point out that I think some people have their ethics twisted.. you can shoot a coyote, possum, skunk, or any other nuisance and there is no MORAL obligation to these animal. yet if someone walk away from a duck or deer or improper gender of quail or other bird. it is a MORAL travesty.. they are all animals....

leadcounsel
March 11, 2011, 07:51 PM
since when does the state or federal government decide what is or isn't moral?
Bingo!

It's too bad that the fat government agencies have created an "US vs. THEM" environment. How many times have you been unfairly fined, taxed, ticketed, towed, etc... ?? It just creates this survival environment that isn't a moral question at all... Nobody here, including me, is saying that you should intentionally violate the law or skirt the system, but taking the 5th Amendment (you know, the one that comes shortly after the 2nd) is your right. Why anyone would incriminate themselves, rat out their family, or teach your kid to incriminate himself is beyond me...

A parent should teach his kid the valuable lessons in life; including identifying the right animal to hunt with his tag and also including following the law, but also knowing when to shut his mouth!

suzukisam
March 11, 2011, 08:07 PM
It's too bad that the fat government agencies have created an "US vs. THEM" environment. How many times have you been unfairly fined, taxed, ticketed, towed, etc... ?? It just creates this survival environment that isn't a moral question at all.

agreed! also on a side note the immorality is only consequential based on the law.. you put enough laws on the books that break hunting seasons up into a couple day increments where you can shoot one of these this week, and one of those next week, anything the week after that, and on the last week of the season if you can bludgeon one with a stick you can keep it but otherwise you can't.. now if you act outside anyone of those rediculous parameters we enter a moral injustice? I'm all about game preservation, but a lot of conservation has gotten way out of bounds! like how many shells you can use to shoot rabbits with in your shotguns...really? deer season sucked this year you get 10 days to shoot a buck and yet for two or three months their splattered all over the highway? I don't get it! The conservation department puts a lot of uneeded pressure on hunters to make snap decisions in the field! I just don't like the bureaucracy of the system and then tell me I'm immoral because I freakin messed up trying not to lose out on my one weekend out of the year I can even shoot a nice deer!

grubbylabs
March 11, 2011, 08:46 PM
Apples to oranges. Nobody was talking about deliberately shooting game out of season. What was being talked about was a kid shooting a doe instead of a buck or visa versa. I don't think that is a "felony" in any state.

When you shoot an animal out of season and don't report it, it can become a felony depending on the animal and area you are hunting. So it is apples to apples.

And in the process of either leaving the animal or packing it out you are again committing another crime which both are equally bad in my opinion. You are either wasting game if you leave the animal there. Or if you pack it out you are poaching the animal- illegally taking it out of season. Great example for your kid.

Again, the discussion is about minor and accidental game infractions, killing a buck for a doe or the reverse. A dead deer is a dead deer. There is little moral difference between killing a buck or a doe, the only difference is regulatory one. In the past few years much of east texas has gone to a minimum antler spread required on bucks for them to be legal to shoot. Errors on judging that are exactly the same sort of deal, and believe me plenty of people make errors in judging spread while dealing with buck fever. Is that the end of the world? No. Am I or should I turn someone in for something like that if they are not all boasting about it and shooting technically illegal game on purpose? No. The point of government isn't to harass people for an occasional honest mistake, and good friends and neighbors don't take it upon themselves to call the law in over things that aren't that big of a deal anyway. Common sense must be applied, and it isn't common sense to drag the law into it every time someone violates a minor regulation accidentally.

While I did not grow up in a shooting family I was still taught to know what it is you are shooting. Once you pull the trigger its game over. So to me it is a big deal what someone is shooting at. The mistake is made for the same reason people shoot others while hunting they don't pay attention to what they are shooting. If you are that relaxed about people shooting at unidentified targets, I hope to never be on a range with you or out in the same woods you shoot at animals in while I am hunting.

TexasPatriot.308
March 11, 2011, 08:55 PM
with the price of gas etc. if you can afford the fine...turn him in..if not starve for a week..

suzukisam
March 11, 2011, 09:05 PM
Grubby- there is a big difference in shooting a person and not being able to count every tine on its head...in mo almost the whole state has a four point restriction, which means you have to basically look for an 8 pointer, and the points only count if they are a certain lenth! That is a way bigger determination to make than whether its a human or not you comment is exagerative and ignorant!

jbkebert
March 11, 2011, 09:21 PM
Grubby- there is a big difference in shooting a person and not being able to count every tine on its head...in mo almost the whole state has a four point restriction, which means you have to basically look for an 8 pointer, and the points only count if they are a certain lenth! That is a way bigger determination to make than whether its a human or not you comment is exagerative and ignorant!

Oh how I beg to differ with your last sentence. While hunting is one of the safest sports out there people do get hurt or dead. I get a shiney little report at the beginning of every year. This report list every reported hunting accident from the previous year. The determined cause and outcome from each incidents investiagtion.

The #1 cause of accidental shooting in the nation not just Kansas is swinging on game. Not staying in your zone of fire.

The #2 cause of accidental shooting in this country is mistaken idenity of game. This generally peaks during Turkey season but Deer season claims the lives of folks every year. People sitting in stands or in blinds for several hours thinking about deer start to see deer that are not there. That person lost in a daydream about a trophey buck sees movement and fires.

DO not even begin to tell me that people getting shot is not a problem. Granted it happens about 6 times a year in the US where someone is killed. The number of people injured is far more. So the above comment is far from out of line.

By the way if your wearing brown carharts during deer season how stupid are you?? That seems to be the #1 outfit of people who are shot during deer season.

suzukisam
March 11, 2011, 09:34 PM
DO not even begin to tell me that people getting shot is not a problem. Granted it happens about 6 times a year in the US where someone is killed. The number of people injured is far more. So the above comment is far from out of line.

never said people don't get shot, and I also never said that stupid people don't hunt. I never even said I don't know some people I wouldn't hunt with for this reason.

What I did say was that trying to say that accidentally shooting an 8 point buck that is "illegal", cause one tine was an eighth of an inch too short, is a far cry from saying your a people shooter. listen I shot a button buck this year, at 200 yrds I couldn't see the little nubs. Now technically my deer was legal, because one of our more sane laws understands that this is a very hard determination to make. but saying I might have shot a person, who should be wearing an orange vest AND hat (in MO) is insulting and stupid! the game laws get very picky and can be very tedious to abide by. And as much as I do not like a lot of the laws because I am an honest so I try my best to abide by them, but I'm not turning myself in if an honest mistake is made!

oh an just on a side note with as restrictive as game laws are now, I'm not sure how you could even shoot a person unless your just a completely reckless person or someone who wasn't supposed to be there got hit by some random ricochet, and that seems less likely than just complete negligence.. this thread is not about people being all willy nilly in the woods it's about honest mistakes by beginners, and even us seasoned hunters

jbkebert
March 11, 2011, 09:46 PM
This is a prime example of what is wrong with society, no one is taught to be accountable any more. If you do it wrong own up to it.

I agree with this statement 100%. Yes mistakes happen. But to break the law trying to cover up the mistake how the heck does this make anything better. Like in any profession there are A-hole F&G officers just like there are A-hole cashiers at the grocery store. Most of the F&G officers are pretty down to earth and wether or not to issue a citation is a discretionary choice made by them.

I am troubled by the fact that alot of the post I am reading regaurd NRO's as the man with a shiney pair of boots that they can't wait to hold you down with. My lord give me a break. The man ain't trying to keep to poor foks down. I think a few to many zombie threads, conspiricy theroies, and Al Sharpton followers around.

SPW1
March 11, 2011, 10:37 PM
I think some are harping a bit to much on "know your target". It "sounds" good on the surface but some seem to have unrealistic expectations on the finer details of quick game identification, and act like anyone making a minor mistake in that area is a unsafe hunter and the moral equivalent to a hunter randomly firing at noises in the brush. It just seems to me that those that cannot understand such a mistake might not have hunted a whole lot yet. I bet a large % of the board that has deer hunted for very long has at one point in time or another shot a button buck thinking it was a doe, shot a buck that turned out to be bigger or smaller, have more points or less points than they thought and perhaps if hunting over a feeder or something they may have accidentally struck a second or different animal from the intended target due to bodies being perfectly aligned and the other animal not being seen, fading light, or sudden movements. Sometimes those minor mis-identifications and accidents make the game shot illegal and sometimes they don't, but any hunter who thinks something like that can never happen to him because he is "careful" probably doesn't do much game shooting. Claiming or implying something like that is akin to claiming that you never miss or never make a less than ideal hit. Are some people very skilled and very careful and end up missing or making a bad hit only very rarely? You bet, but those who "never" do it at all usually have only shot a fairly small number of game animals. You keep at it long enough and you will. It isn't necessarily incompetence or negligence, it is just life.

agree with this statement 100%. Yes mistakes happen. But to break the law trying to cover up the mistake how the heck does this make anything better.

Failure to report is not the same as "covering up". We are not all cops or game officers and it isn't our duty to report every little thing to them if it isn't a big deal in the first place. The idea that the citizen has a duty to report every little regulatory infraction anyone makes to the government is a nanny state big government concept in my humble opinion.

am troubled by the fact that alot of the post I am reading regaurd NRO's as the man with a shiney pair of boots that they can't wait to hold you down with. My lord give me a break. The man ain't trying to keep to poor foks down. I think a few to many zombie threads, conspiricy theroies, and Al Sharpton followers around.

No they aren't all bad, but enough of them are and enough people have been kicked around by them without just cause to where many people are understandably reluctant to involve a game warden they don't know personally.

Cranky CJ
March 11, 2011, 10:59 PM
The question poses ethical decisions at several levels; call DOW or not. Leave the bad shoot to rot in the woods or not. Pack it out and not call, and attemt to cover it up. All decisions will be watched closely by your child. Ah, decisions, decisions...and the explainations to your child for yours.

jbkebert
March 11, 2011, 11:12 PM
Failure to report is not the same as "covering up". We are not all cops or game officers and it isn't our duty to report every little thing to them if it isn't a big deal in the first place. The idea that the citizen has a duty to report every little regulatory infraction anyone makes to the government is a nanny state big government concept in my humble opinion.

I agree and disagree with you here. Now I am not saying that the slighest infraction is grounds for turning your kid or your buddy in. I don't think any of us are the hall monitors. What I am saying is if a animal was taken illegally by accident or not. How is it not legal not to report it. If you transsport the illegal game you have broken the law. If you leave it to feed the yotes you have broken the law. So your darned if you do and darned if you don't.

Lord knows I have made my share of mistakes in the field. i have misjudged yardage and put a poor shot on two deer. i have also sent a arrow right under a deer and right over a hog. A mistake does not make you a unsafe hunter or a people killer by anymeans. However honest mistakes no matter how trivial could have the potential to become much more than a honest mistake. The comments made by myself and grubbylabs may have been mistaken for more than what they were.

There is nothing i want to see more than young hunters in the field. That is why I donate 2 to 3 hundred hours a year volunteering as a He instructor. It is something that i care very much about. Only 8% of our population are hunters. 3% of the population are anti's so the remaining 89% decide our fate. If that 89% decides that hunters are not safe do not adhere to game laws. I can gosh darn assure you they can remove our rights to hunt.

langenc
March 11, 2011, 11:28 PM
We had one around here that would have written up his mother if his plate of beans was two short.

Another checked the fishing license of a friend, ice fishing, 4 out of 5 days??
He had to walk 1/2 mile onto the ice to do the check. My friend drove the same vehicle all days.

lizziedog1
March 12, 2011, 08:45 AM
since when does the state or federal government decide what is or isn't moral?


We are the government. Last I looked, we are not a dictatorship or a monarchy.

grubbylabs
March 12, 2011, 09:26 AM
What do you mean "since when has the government decided what is or isn't moral"? the Constitution gives them the police power and they have been deciding what is moral since the beginning. Why do you think they control or prohibit gambling, porn, hookers, booze, and tobacco?

Let alone what time of year, what sex, and time between dark we can shoot. Moral choices controlled by the state.

jbkebert
March 12, 2011, 10:30 AM
Laws, morals, and ethics are not the same thing. just because something is not ethical does not mean it is illegal.

A prime example is long range hunting. While this can be perfectly legal and perfectly ethical. A person taking a long range shot who is not a profiecent marksman at long ranges while not breaking any laws is certainly not making a ethical choice. Someone who takes the time to master the skill of longrange shooting doesn't just read the newest article in outdoor life or watch some video is doing absolutly nothing wrong.

Morals and ethics are guidlines for who we are and how we go through life. These guidlines vary depending on background and geographic regions as well as ethnic or religious diffrences.

Laws are established to govern the body as a whole. if something is deemed illegal regaurdless if you agree or not. An ethic is what you beleive to be right or wrong. My set of ethics is diffrent than someone elses and it is a very hard thing to say ones ethics are better than anothers. Bottom line is if something is wrong that little voice should be slapping the crap out of you to make it right. Failing to report or covering up how ever you want to say it does nothing to reinforce the morals and ethics we try to pass along to our children.

suzukisam
March 12, 2011, 10:31 AM
What do you mean "since when has the government decided what is or isn't moral"? the Constitution gives them the police power and they have been deciding what is moral since the beginning. Why do you think they control or prohibit gambling, porn, hookers, booze, and tobacco?

Let alone what time of year, what sex, and time between dark we can shoot. Moral choices controlled by the state.

so your okay with abortion, prostitution, gay marriage, and marijuana? it's all legal in some form or another somewhere in our country? NO I'm guessing your not. The government does not decide morality, they decide what is socially acceptable behavior!

As far as hunting goes they are only supposed to make decisions based on game preservation and hunting safety, and even those they have over stepped. They do not decide what is moral. if you take law as morality you have replaced the bible with the constitution, and or game laws. Or whatever book you govern your moral code with. shooting a doe during buck season is not immoral, it is illegal, and it is in bad taste if you do it intentionally.

We are the government. Last I looked, we are not a dictatorship or a monarchy. We should be, but you and i know better than that. If we are the government we wouldn't be constantly fighting ourselves for our god given right to protect ourselves

Art Eatman
March 12, 2011, 10:55 AM
And now we have abortion mentioned?

Way more than enough!

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