Automatic pistols


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La Pistoletta
January 6, 2004, 04:31 PM
My first post.
The automatic (3-round burst) pistols I know of are the Glock 18 and the Beretta 93R.
What others are there? Neither Glock nor Beretta sells them to anyone outside the government, as far as I know, but from a legal standpoint, would it be OK to own a 3-round burst pistol?

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Hkmp5sd
January 6, 2004, 05:27 PM
You can own any 3-round burst pistol you want, provided you want one that was manufactured and registered with ATF prior to 1986. A 3-round burst firearm is considered a full-auto machinegun by the government. There are very few of those types around. There are no Glock 18s to my knowledge and I believe there are only 2 Beretta 93Rs (both of which are full autos), which go for around $100,000 each.

About the closest you will find in the $10,000 and under category are the smaller submachineguns such as MAC 10/11s, MP5Ks and Mini-Uzis.

SDC
January 6, 2004, 05:32 PM
Some of the others include the Stechkin, the Skorpion, the Mexican Trejo, some versions of the C-96 Mauser, a few Stars, and there was even a FA version of the CZ-75 (usually seen with an extra upside-down magazine clipped onto the dust-cover to act as a forward grip). There are also some pre-86 conversions of Hi-Powers and 1911s available to private buyers.

Justin
January 6, 2004, 06:58 PM
HK VP70. A three-round burst option would be enabled by attaching a shoulder stock.

La Pistoletta
January 7, 2004, 02:57 PM
How can those things cycle the action so fast?
And is the VP70 available?

Sunray
January 7, 2004, 03:09 PM
La Pistoletta, you don't want a VP70. It's junk. It's the only firearm I've ever seen panned by a gun rag hack in 30 plus years. Cooper called it the Jam-a-matic. Trigger was crap. Sights were crap. Price was high. Only good as a paperweight.

Walt Sherrill
January 7, 2004, 03:15 PM
How can those things cycle the action so fast?

Most semi-auto pistols cycle very rapidly. You could fire them as rapidly as a submachine gun if your finger and reflexes were up to the task.

La Pistoletta
January 8, 2004, 10:24 AM
Is it easier for a gun to cycle faster if it's not using bottlenecked ammunition (for example, 9mm vs. 5.56 NATO, or with pistols only, 9mm vs. .357 Sig)?
I've read that the Glock 18 cycles 1200 RPM speed in burst-mode. What about the others?
Where I live, I've been told that you have to practice for 6 months before applying for a .22LR licence, and another 6 months for 9mm and above (Magnum not included) and you have to know your firearm, fire it well enough and be generally responsible. Safety cabinet is mandatory, and if you aren't active enough (practice or competition, I think) your licence may be withdrawn.

BeLikeTrey
January 10, 2004, 09:26 AM
vp70-z civilian and had not cutouts for the stock
vp70-m military/police had the stock option with 3 rd burst selector.
IIRC the "cam" for the burst was in the stock itself

La Pistoletta
January 10, 2004, 09:29 AM
A vz.61 would be easier then, I guess.

Walt Sherrill
January 10, 2004, 10:25 AM
Is it easier for a gun to cycle faster if it's not using bottlenecked ammunition (for example, 9mm vs. 5.56 NATO, or with pistols only, 9mm vs. .357 Sig)?I've always heard that bottlenecked ammo was EASIER to feed without problems. (Think about it -- a smaller nose to go into a bigger opening!) I don't know if that's true or not, but a lot of military guns use a bottlenecked cartridge, and they fire fine in burse or full-auto mode. (AK-47, M-14, the BIG machine guns...)

La Pistoletta
January 10, 2004, 10:30 AM
But it's a more asymmetric shape.

Walt Sherrill
January 10, 2004, 12:26 PM
Asymetric when viewed from the side, but just as symetrical as a regular (non-bottle neck) cartridge when viewed head on.

Think about the practical aspects of trying to force a cartridge into a chamber at high speed. Think in more basic terms: which do you think is easier to put in a hole, if you're trying to do it quickly? A flat-nosed or blunt-nosed dowel, or one with a long, tapered, pointed nose. (Or one with a nose much smaller than the rest of the body?)

The magazine will hold the cartridge in a way that the asymetrcial case is not an issue.

La Pistoletta
January 10, 2004, 12:34 PM
Yes, it should be easier. It'll slide in like a nail in a beercan. ;)

SDC
January 10, 2004, 01:02 PM
Cartridge shape is only one small part of the issue; as long as your round is positioned properly at the feed ramp for each shot in time for the bolt to pick it up, it should be irrelevant what the cartridge is shaped like. If having a sharply-tapered round was that much of a help in trouble-free feeding and functioning, the WW1 Chauchat in 8mm Lebel would be the world leader in ROF, no? ;)

Walt Sherrill
January 10, 2004, 01:07 PM
If RATE of FIRE were the point being discussed, I'd agree. But reliability/ease of loading, not speed, was the issue.

That said, I agree that more than bullet/cartridge shape is important for rapid feeding -- the points you made.

My point, simply, was that a bottle-necked cartridge/round did not make it more difficult to feed reliably.

Nero Steptoe
January 10, 2004, 04:04 PM
The G18 isn't a three-round burst; it's fully-automatic, with a selector.

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