public range stupidity


PDA






Pacsd
March 10, 2011, 02:22 PM
I can only hope this might be read by those idiots I saw at a public range in the grasslands. There are 3 established distances, 100-200-300 yards with an excellent backdrop. It's 1st come 1st served. So if you want to shoot at 200 but someone is on the 100 you wait til they are done. And if someone is on the 200 or 300 and you want to shoot 100, you wait. Pretty simple. However, I was out there one day and here are 5-6 guys set up on the 300 with targets set between the 300 & 200, targets at the 200, 100 & against the backdrop. Not to mention 8-10- 12 year old kids milling around. Several times after shots you could hear them zingin off the ground (as the lay of the land is slightly downward) and going "who knows where". I knew we were in for a long wait and that was OK. After awhile one of the guys who were obviously a "flap" from a near by US airbase comes over and asks me if I wanted to shoot along with them and we would be welcome to set up anywhere between the 300 and the backdrop. I told him no, thanks, I'll wait til I can set up at the backdrop the way it is suppose to be and I don't want my rounds "rich-o-in" all over the place like the ones I've heard from your group and asked him what his base safety officer would have to say about violating some of the 10 rules of gun safety. He just kinda smirked and went back to his buddies. I knew he was telling his buds so I took out a note pad and wrote down a couple of thier license numbers. One guy was watching me do this. Meanwhile, two other guys pulled up, sat around for a few minutes then came over by me and in a voice loud enough asked me "what the heck is goin on here"? I just said, "pretty stupid, huh"? It didn't take much longer that they packed up and left. I did call the base safety office and related this to one of the officers. He assured me there would be action taken once he ID-ed them thru the plate numbers. Haven't seen them back since. Just how dumb can some people be?

If you enjoyed reading about "public range stupidity" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
kingpin008
March 10, 2011, 02:30 PM
Unsafe or not, sounds like you handled it pretty poorly.

Ever hear the saying "you get more flies with honey than you do vinegar"? In this case, you were vinegar. They offered to let you start shooting, and even though it wasn't a safe way to go about it, you could have just said "no thanks" and politely pointed out that they were causing an unsafe situation. Instead, you decided to go on the offensive, and basically start insulting them right off the bat.

Also, you might want to curb your use of "idiots" and the like from now on - we don't do insults here. Attack the problem, not the person.

Claude Clay
March 10, 2011, 02:32 PM
I can only hope this might be read by those idiots I saw at a public range in the grasslands.i must be reading it wrong--you are hopeful that 'those idiots' are members of our forum:eek:.

leaving that idea alone, i am not surprised by the errors in safety and/or even the inability to read posted range rules anywhere. public or private.
sometimes knowing when to just walk away to shoot again another day is playing a bad hand the best you can.

inclinebench
March 10, 2011, 03:19 PM
I am confused...were these guys shooting on the base? If so, how come no range officer? If it was not on the base, can the safety officer you called really do anything? Is it something he should be bothered with? Might be a jurisdictional issue so to speak.

Walkalong
March 10, 2011, 03:29 PM
"Public" & "stupidity" are redundant. :)

medalguy
March 10, 2011, 03:37 PM
Might have been better to go up to the group and let them know there are some established safety regulations at that range and they aren't keeping within those rules and maybe ask if they would like you to help them set up in a safe manner. If not, I agree, I'd leave them to their own means.

villageidiot357
March 10, 2011, 03:49 PM
10 rules of gun safety? I always thought two about covered it.

Robert
March 10, 2011, 03:54 PM
I too am confused. They had targets set up at 200 on the 300 range? So? The range I shoot has target stands every 50 or 100 yards from 25 out to whatever the end of the range is. 425y on the long range. I use close in targets on the long range all the time to check zero at different ranges without having to pull everything and move.

They had some ricochets? Ok. And? This happens all the time in shooting. Wait till you are down range checking targets at a match and a 12ga slug goes zipping over head from the range next door. Sounds like an angry humming bird.

They brought the kids and that is an issue? Maybe the kids had been shooting before you arrived. Where they running around being dangerous? Or where they just there? Milling around does not seem to impose a threat to me.

Where there blatant violations of the 4 rules of safe firearm handling? If so I could see getting upset, but things could have been handled better on all sides.

When approached you could have politely pointed out their safety issues and explained that the range tends to operate in a certain manner.

Carlos Cabeza
March 10, 2011, 04:05 PM
What ? Is the Airbase right behind the range stop ? I'm not sure what your grievance is here. Probably no harm unless a major housing edition is in the immediate range behind the stop. I shoot at 300+ yd cattle rangeland in OKLAHOMA !!!!:eek: Nothing but FLAT as far as the eye can see. There is a remote possibility I may hit a Bovine ruminant but the chances are very low. (and the landowner knows where to send the bill :) ) The are no human dwellings, shopping malls, interstate highways etc. behind the intended target area for at least ten miles.

A richochet, AFTER hitting dirt, how far are we talking here ??????

I am going with Gus' final statement about a polite intervention or packing up and finding a new place more suitable to my level of safety requirements.

pinstripe
March 10, 2011, 05:36 PM
You lost me doc. I can't understand your post.

Toforo
March 10, 2011, 06:01 PM
You could always join a private range and then start a forum thread entitled.....

"private range stupidity"

Justin
March 10, 2011, 07:56 PM
You could always join a private range and then start a forum thread entitled.....

"private range stupidity"

In my experience, private ranges tend to have a much lower idiot quotient than public ones.

EddieNFL
March 10, 2011, 08:38 PM
In my experience, private ranges tend to have a much lower idiot quotient than public ones.
Indeed.

oneounceload
March 10, 2011, 09:05 PM
In my experience, private ranges tend to have a much lower idiot quotient than public ones.

Only when they have responsible folks marshalling the activities

Toforo
March 10, 2011, 09:19 PM
In my experience, private ranges tend to have a much lower idiot quotient than public ones

YUP - but it would still lead to a thread topic, lol


:)

jbr
March 10, 2011, 09:35 PM
i can't exactly picture the situation. but a little free advice - worth at least what you're paying for it. When a "group" of guys are screwing up it is not always wise to belittle one of them. Any man deserves the respect of being spoken to like a man. "Thanks for the offer but you guys are scaring me a little bit- the way you are setup may leave you open to catch a ricochet etc... The range ask that you shoot only from "insert range rule here" You guys might want to do that so you don't "whatever whatever" I'm guessing that they were pretty good guys or they would have given you a bunch of mouth after you rubbed their noses in whatever it was. Give a man a chance to save face or think about what he's doing until he proves he doesn't deserve that chance. Just common courtesy. IT could always turn out that the guy is a butt head and kicks yours. To quote a famous civil rights leader of our times "Why can't we all just get along." (Rodney King (look it up)for those of you who are young/lucky enough not to know)
(clack)
Off the soap box now.

lizziedog1
March 10, 2011, 09:47 PM
These threads make me happy that I now live here.

EddieNFL
March 10, 2011, 09:50 PM
I did call the base safety office and related this to one of the officers. He assured me there would be action taken once he ID-ed them thru the plate numbers.

Nothing happened. A "safety officer" has no authority downtown. He could pass the info along to the individual's commander, but unless he admits to wrong doing, it's a dead end.

altitude_19
March 10, 2011, 10:24 PM
I did call the base safety office and related this to one of the officers. He assured me there would be action taken once he ID-ed them thru the plate numbers.
Your complaint has merit, but your technique requires tweaking. I can already tell you're not active duty, so at best you're (I doubt it) retired military, and even if you are retired mil, that doesn't put you very far ahead of pure blooded civilians. Nothing wrong with civilians, but simply put, it is not their place to call the base and try to put the screws to a GI just because it's easy. If you're looking for a simple rule: GI's should not try to flex their status off-base in their favor, and you should not try to leverage it against them. Of course the safety office assured you action would be taken, but I suspect that is a side-effect of our "something must be done" culture. It doesn't really matter if you're blowing smoke up his afterburner...he'll always assure you action will be taken because it's how we're conditioned and he doesn't want to appear dismissive. We have enough crap to deal with as military already...don't try to make life any harder for me.

orionengnr
March 11, 2011, 01:00 AM
I don't want my rounds "rich-o-in" all over the place
Did you mean ricocheting? If you speak English, you will be more understandable.

like the ones I've heard from your group and asked him what his base safety officer would have to say about violating some of the 10 rules of gun safety.
I am only aware of Four Rules. A search will turn them up.

Before you accuse someone else of stupidity, you should look in a mirror and critically apprise your own actions...

Vyacheslav
March 11, 2011, 01:16 AM
took down there license plate numbers? that's pretty creepy, i'd like to know what you planned to do with them.

liammtierney
March 11, 2011, 01:20 AM
It sounds like you believe you are a little more important than you really are, sir.

By the way, whats a "flap"?

Ignition Override
March 11, 2011, 01:43 AM
liammtierney:
"Flap": the only version I've heard means "funny little airplane pilot".

Some (not all) military pilots use the word "flap" to look down on civilian pilots who starved a bit as they scraped money together for their very expensive civilian flight training. And no, my initial training was Not civilian.

Huge numbers of these guys/gals then had no choice but to work for peanuts as instructors in order to acquire 'pilot in command' cross-country and even more valuable PIC or SIC multi-engine experience in light twins.

Many Air Force bases had flying clubs, at least many years ago, where active or reserve staff could rent a single engine (recip.) plane by the hour for a bit less money than what is charged by FBOs at civilian airports.
A roommate in '83 was still a Staff or Master Sgt. (Loadmaster) in the Texas ANG, NAS Dallas, and might have started with such a club.

Mags
March 11, 2011, 01:57 AM
Wow, the OP does not look good.

First off there are 4 rules of gun safety, the AF only teaches 3. Secondly the base safety office does not care what happens off base and has no authority off base. I am certain the guy you called just said what he said to pacify you.

You know how I know this. Because I an active duty "flap" as you put it, for 10+ years. Maybe you should not be so quick to judge. Maybe you could have taught these guys something. Hell in my 10+ years of service I only went through CATM with the M16 3 times. I learned most of my shooting from fellow civilian range goers who took the time to teach me the error of my ways.

(I'm not a pilot, I just don't care for civilians using what are normally terms of endearment between servicemembers in a derogatory manner)

makarovnik
March 11, 2011, 05:43 AM
I guess you had to be there.

fallout mike
March 11, 2011, 07:55 AM
Mama says stupid is as stupid does.

InkEd
March 11, 2011, 11:22 AM
Does anyone else want to tell an actual story?

The OP could have handled the situation differently. Point taken. Back on subject.....

The most recent thing I overheard, at the range, was two younger guys in the next lane talking to one another. They were using a pre-lock S&W revolver and having a good time. Then they ran out of ammo for it. The 1st guy said he didn't have anymore money for ammo. The 2nd guy says he'd buy a box OR they could just shoot his gun for awhile. (So far nothing unusual or anything.)

The 1st guy says 'Yeah, let's just shoot yours because it shoots better than my brother's
gun. (Referencing the S&W revolver.)" At this point , I look over to see what gun this 2nd guy owns that's better than .357 S&W stainless. The second guy pulls out (you know it's coming...) a Hi-Point 9mm pistol! The 2nd guy says something about 'being a broke college student or he'd have bought a Glock instead.'

And now for the finale...... The 1st guy says 'I don't know, 9mm is real powerful round. It might kick alot or crack the plastic. It's alot stronger than a .357'

I just had to shake my head.

InkEd
March 11, 2011, 11:23 AM
FWIW under normal circumstances I would have politely corrected them BUT my new Redhawk need to be fired for the first time.

Toaster
March 11, 2011, 01:26 PM
Being a USAF veteran, I can't help but get the frling that the real issue with Pacsd is not about range etiquete so much as it is about these individuals being military. I've been through it myself. I heard the derogatory remarks evry time I went into town - base ape, wingnut, Air force retard, POS, etc.
I'm not sure what people expect of military personel. Calling the base and "tattling" will do little or no good. You can't expect the base commander to hand out a LOC or worse to an Airman because of a townie calling with nothing more than hearsay.

Disparate
March 11, 2011, 10:58 PM
InkEd,

The purpose of this post was not to share stories; rather to share an observation and a reaction. Your post is unwarranted and, quite frankly, completely useless.

Be that as it may, the OP would have been better off approaching the purported offender in a sincere and open manner with his concerns. I've occasionally approached range goers who have poor muzzle discipline and finger <> their triggers and politely state that, while they might not know this, they pose an actual threat to others. My comments have always been well received and I have made "buddies" this way.

As a former Marine, the OP's "snitch" techniques really rankle me. Instead of surreptitiously jotting down license plate numbers and ratting them out, perhaps being a bit more upfront, manly and direct would have served the purpose better. Chances are the person on the AF base you spoke of deep sixed your complaint and laughed at you for being a thin-skinned complainer and the alleged dangerous shooter learned nothing about his transgressions.

Be a man. Speak directly to someone instead of ratting them out.

Bovice
March 11, 2011, 11:08 PM
i have NO IDEA what was going on in the original story. The shots were all headed downrange? If so, I don't see ANYTHING wrong with this.

Shadow 7D
March 12, 2011, 12:00 AM
RICK O Shays

Best to avoid it, most don't like them, and some are super ANAL about only putting lead into the soft dirt berm...

But, it didn't sound that unsafe (In the story, I though they were skipping bullets at the 200 mark with someone at a 200m firing line (a range design I would never shoot at) but on second reading that doesn't seem to be the case.

gdcpony
March 12, 2011, 04:55 AM
Well, I don't know about the USAF, but should I get a call about one of my Marines even if it is about an off base item, I take it seriously. Never was I called about a range thing. Usually it was drinking and/or driving issues or financial. Many times it ended with a guy one rank lower or losing his clearance.

At the same time, this kind of call would have gotten me to brief my platoon on range safety, advise them I got a call about "someone," and not much else.


The dumbest things I have seen at a public range?
1. A guy was shooting some surplus arms at a local 100yd range. Mostly an SKS and AK. I broke out my rifles and set up my bench while waiting on him to be done. Once he was done he came over and was asking about my choice and it was mostly polite, but something seemed "off" about him. Maybe it was the lack of knowledge, the SHTF talk or the surplus cammies he had on, but he seemed very ignorant yet paramilitary. I wrote it off as just me and him being a new shooter or something.
We went downrange and I was setting up my target when all of a sudden he pulled his handgun and started shooting from about 25yds back! As soon as he was done emptying his mag and was attempting (rather pathetically) to do speed reload, I tore into him verbally. By that time, I had sprinted back up to behind him yelling for him to stop and had been ignored. He left shortly after, and I never saw him again, but hope he learned better.

2. 1000yd range laid out much like I imagine the OP's is. I was at the 500yd line and was the only one at the range. I was done with a string and was about to check my targets when I heard a report from my right rear. Sure enough some guy had set up targets at the 800yd line and was shooting from the 1000yds line. I was sure since I was proned out for mine he must have missed me (despite my car being right behind him and my range gear being on the same bench his turned out to be on. So I started waving my hands and got a wave back then another shot rang out!
This guy was a piece of work. He assured me he was a sniper from the local base (there were none stationed there) and I was perfectly safe where I was. It was way too long of a walk to set targets on the target line so he was going to shoot where he was and I should just continue on. I just told him to hold off while I gathered my stuff up and left. I let him know that one more shot while I was downrange would result in me yanking his ID and returning it to his unit (turned out he was a mechanic). I gathered my stuff and left. Him I saw a few more times at that range area (Yuma, AZ), but never had another problem with him.

There my two worst idiots.

EddieNFL
March 12, 2011, 08:55 AM
Well, I don't know about the USAF, but should I get a call about one of my Marines even if it is about an off base item, I take it seriously.

So did I, but I would never drop the hammer on a guy based on a phone call from a civilian.

buck460XVR
March 12, 2011, 03:30 PM
I too see nuttin' unsafe as described by the OP. Most outdoor ranges are set up to accommodate the occasional ricochet from a low shot hitting the ground or a high shot over the berm. Kids milling around BEHIND the shooters and out of the line of fire, is not a safety issue unless they are actively distracting the shooter. No where in the OPs post did I read of any other safety issues, real or not. Seems to me the OP was irritated he had to wait and has a dislike for people wearing uniforms.


After awhile one of the guys comes over and asks me if I wanted to shoot along with them and we would be welcome to set up anywhere between the 300 and the backdrop.

This is the kind of camaraderie and attitude I always hope to see at my local public gun range. Not the take their license plate # and tattle on them for no legitimate reason just because I have to wait attitude. Focus on negativity long enough and you can generally perceive any thing you want.

orionengnr
March 13, 2011, 07:25 PM
To quote a famous civil rights leader of our times "Why can't we all just get along." (Rodney King (look it up)

Rodney King was a Civil Rights leader? In which parallel universe? In mine, he's a two-bit thug, repeat offender who had 15 minutes of fame.

Mainsail
March 14, 2011, 10:06 AM
After awhile one of the guys comes over and asks me if I wanted to shoot along with them and we would be welcome to set up anywhere between the 300 and the backdrop.
So if I'm reading this right, the AF guy noticed you waiting and tried to accommodate you, and you thanked him by being a jerk?

thezoltar
March 14, 2011, 10:44 AM
Quote:
To quote a famous civil rights leader of our times "Why can't we all just get along." (Rodney King (look it up)

Rodney King was a Civil Rights leader? In which parallel universe? In mine, he's a two-bit thug, repeat offender who had 15 minutes of fame.

I think someone missed the sarcasm.

Robert
March 14, 2011, 10:46 AM
Well I guess we can let this one go since it seems the OP has yet to come back and address some of the questions raised.

Sam1911
March 14, 2011, 10:55 AM
The OP's certainly got a lot to think about here, and it doesn't seem like he's coming back to clear up any misconceptions, so let's let this go. Lessons learned.

If you enjoyed reading about "public range stupidity" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!