Your expertise requested; Please classify this assortment


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Chisel Head
March 11, 2011, 08:48 AM
Police here just stumbled onto an armament find, in Germany where law-abiding citizens are disarmed. Here, it's nearly impossible to stash something somewhere without someone stumbling onto it or bilding a house upon where you burried your bug-out bag.
These weapons don't look Modern. But, some nevertheless don't look old enough to have been produced during WW2.
Can you identify these in this 7 photo series?

Graphic source:

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/mediacenter/fotostrecken/berlin/waffenfund-in-suedbrandenburg/3929144.html

I: ?
T: ?
X: ?

http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/4714/wafffund.jpg

A close-up:

http://img862.imageshack.us/img862/1278/wafffund2.jpg

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/images/waffen6_dapd/3929142/2.jpg?format=format10

Assuming this is vintage WW2, are these American grenades (or copies thereof?) still produced?

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/images/waffen5_dapd/3929138/2.jpg?format=format10

Perhaps, new and old ammo unsorted?:

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/images/waffen3_dpa/3929132/3.jpg?format=format15

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SDC
March 11, 2011, 10:49 AM
All reasonably modern (WW2 or later), including the dummy hand grenade; from top to bottom I see an MG-42 (WW2-issue German MG in 8mm Mauser), an MP-44 (WW2-issue German "assault rifle" in 8mm Kurz), a new Steyr SSG sniper rifle (from Austria, likely in 308 Win), a box of ammo, three rifles (L-R are a Czech VZ-52 in 7.62x45, what looks to be a Mannlicher carbine (produced in several calibres for several countries) and what I think is a Romanian-produced semi-auto copy of the AKM, done up as a short-range "sniping rifle", and a dummy hand grenade and more ammo at the bottom.

Jim Watson
March 11, 2011, 10:52 AM
First picture, I is an MG42 and X is an StGw44, both WW II weapons.
T is a Steyr SSG69 not older than 1969.

Second picture, the ammo can is labeled for 5.56, current US and NATO.

Third picture, I can't identify the leftmost rifle, the Carcano in the middle is WW II Italian, the Dragunov on the right is probably newer, likely much newer.

I don't think the US still uses the "pineapple" grenade, but somebody might still be making the simple old design.

The ammunition is a mix of old and recent, a lot of .22 rimfire along with some old tarnished military surplus.

Mp7
March 11, 2011, 11:17 AM
The article says it´s in an eastern german region where 1945 heavy battles took place. He had a metal detector when he was younger it says.

Half of the stuff looks found and refurbished, the rest bought
on the black-market .....

I´ve heard it wasn´t too uncommon in the countryside east of berlin to sometimes find a K98 leaning on a tree in the 50´s and 60´s ... protected from rain .... just like the soldier put it there before fate got him.

Chisel Head
March 12, 2011, 06:39 AM
My exwife found a rifle about 25 Kilometers northwest of Warsaw, in the early seventies, behind where her grandparents lived, where there was a major front. Her grandfather stumbled into a Cowboy Indians game she was playing with her little brother. More than likely, the rifle was discharged, before gramps took it away.
I'm sure that if someone goes there through those woods with a metal detector, he'll be bound to find something. German memorabilia, of course, bring higher prices. The only problem would be to get firearms out of the country. Knives and bayonettes are no problem, though.
Getting back to that stash they found, the article says that this person was some kind of firearms Messy and (as the photos confirm) was collecting these without having a political motive (which is what I was trying to find out, as I started the thread). Pictures tell the story, while other details are withheld. Interesting to note, though, is the expressions on these policemens' faces. I never seen one giving such dirty looks to pulled over drivers of vehicles stopped for superceeding the speed limit double in front of a grade school. Even though, a manifold amount of victims die, get maimed or seriously get injured from illegal motorvehicle use, here in Germany, than the combined tally resulting from both legal and illegal firearm use

JT-AR-MG42
March 12, 2011, 07:50 AM
Looks like that guy had not had a lot of time with the 42, or maybe 42/59.

Grip and metal finish just has a post war look to it. At least to me. The bipod is on backwards, the tabs for hanging it into the barrel jacket are facing forward rather than back toward the receiver. It is a converted '34 bipod though. The cutouts on the sides of it were for the '34 spring tabs (removed or never installed) that pushed in to lock it onto the 'button' on the barrel jacket.

See if you can get a photo of the receiver info on the left rear panel. because that belt really has me curious as to what that rig is chambered in. It ain't 8x57 or 7.62 Nato with that belt. The belt looks like it is a Soviet design.

With that belt -even loaded- in there, the gun is pretty safe. A '42 pushs the cartridge forward to chamber. Not possible with the belt pictured given the closed, circular links.

Either that guy or the people who confiscated it come off looking pretty inept on this one.

My take from the photos, JT

Chisel Head
March 12, 2011, 07:58 AM
...The bipod is on backwards...It was likely the cops who attempted assembling it for their photo session :uhoh:

SDC
March 12, 2011, 08:07 AM
Good eyes on the MG belt; that's from a Russian design, the Goryunov SG-43 (later, the SGM).

Jim K
March 14, 2011, 09:17 PM
In MD several years ago, the governor was pushing a ban on "assault weapons". The state police, the governor's toadies in this state, displayed weapons they claimed had been seized from criminals and extremists. They were unhappy when it was proven they actually used state funds to buy the guns at gun shoips. (Would the police lie to us? Hell, yes!)

Jim

gyvel
March 15, 2011, 07:27 AM
Third picture, I can't identify the leftmost rifle,

Czech VZ 52.

Chisel Head
March 16, 2011, 06:51 AM
...They were unhappy when it was proven they actually used state funds to buy the guns at gun shops...Great find. If you can get a link to the story, I'll post the news in some news forums:cool:

...including the dummy hand grenade......Either that guy or the people who confiscated it come off looking pretty inept on this one...
That's got to be the icing on the cake, aside from mounting that bipod backwards. I guess, if they had any technical aptitude, they'd be building cars instead. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2xTwyPrxWw

A little off-topic, but not entirely unrelated, approx. 300 citizens (Lemmings, as far as I'm concerned) surrendered their firearms within an amnesty deadline, in that very region where that arsenal was found:

http://www.mi.brandenburg.de/cms/detail.php/bb1.c.190749.de

The authorities destroy these perfectly good firearms, instead of at least selling them on the international market where firearms are legal. The sale could pay the cost of this act. Instead, it becomes a total waste of taxpayers' money. Other cities, in Germany, have offered like amnesties.

Here, some of the victims: :(

http://www.mi.brandenburg.de/media_fast/4058/Waffen.JPG

RustHunter87
March 16, 2011, 10:37 PM
oh man im gonna cry The authorities destroy these perfectly good firearms, why:(

alsaqr
March 17, 2011, 07:45 AM
The grenade is a practice model. See the hole in the end?

Chisel Head
March 18, 2011, 08:14 AM
How can I delete this double post?

Chisel Head
March 18, 2011, 08:41 AM
...why? :( ...They do these things, in every branch of government here, all day long. You wouldn't believe how much waste there is here.
As far as gun ownership is concerned, if you owe the government here tax money, they will deny you gun ownership. As if these separate issues had even something to do with one another.
Here's an interesting link I stumbled onto, as I was researching the above issue:

http://www.linguee.de/deutsch-englisch/uebersetzung/waffengesetz.html

Found it. They could pull your right to gun ownership, if convicted for drunk driving, tax-evasion, verbal assault or jumping child support:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffenbesitzkarte_%28Deutschland%29

...Im Unterschied zu dem bis 31. März 2008 geltenden Recht, das den Waffenbesitzkartenentzug für den Fall nur ganz bestimmter Strafdelikte vorsah, knüpft das seit 1. April 2008 geltende Recht nun vor allem an das Strafmaß von mindestens 60 Tagessätzen an. Ist das Strafmaß Freiheitsstrafe oder Jugendstrafe, bedarf es keiner Mindesthöhe. Die Verurteilung muss nicht auf ein waffenspezifisches Fehlverhalten zurückgehen. Auch eine Trunkenheitsfahrt mit dem Auto, eine Steuerhinterziehung, eine Beleidigung oder die Verletzung der Unterhaltspflicht genügt...

justashooter in pa
March 22, 2011, 05:12 PM
I is an MG42 type. could be anywhen from 1942 till yesterday, as they are still made and in service in many countries in the "middle world". a german design, in either 8X57 or 7.62X51.

T is a Steyr SSG, a typical high dollar "sniper" rifle from sometime in the last 15 years. a german design, in 7.62X51.

X is an STG44, a german WW2 design shooting 8X33 ammo. they were made in germany during and after the war. last i heard they were being made in iran on old german stamping tooling.

next photo, L to R is a Czech VZ 52 in 7.62X41, a Steyr 1895 in 8X56R (not sure), and an FPK/PSL romanian in 7.62X54R, a semiauto designated marksman rifle.

the grenade has a blue handle. it is hollow (hole on bottom), was never active, and is for training purposes only. cannot readily be made active, just a novelty.

Chisel Head
March 29, 2011, 06:30 AM
Ha, ha! So the police knew it was a dummy and decided to picture it for effectiveness. Funny how they can do something so embarassing :o while keeping a straight face

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