WWI Gun Sale...HELP! 1917, Mauser,Mosin Nagant, Enfield


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skipbo32
March 11, 2011, 12:26 PM
i just need some quick and rough advise. here is a pic on some WWI guns that are being held in a silent auction (the shotgun is not WWI, yes). i was wanting advise on what amount to bid on them. they are all in good to very good condition. yes i know the pics arent much, but any general help would be great. i guess i would like a ball park figure for what these guns go for.

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/skipbo32/viewer.png

starting with the 2nd from the top down im guess what i have listed here is:

1917 enfield

mosin nagant

mkIII smle

mauser 98 (spanish?)

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skipbo32
March 11, 2011, 12:27 PM
O and ps....i believe the picture has a misprint....being that the mosin nagant and the mauser are mis listed, in that they need to be name- swopped.

KodiakBeer
March 11, 2011, 12:40 PM
I don't think you're going to get a clear answer because there are so many variations within those individual rifles.

The Mosin Nagant, less than $100.

The 1917 Enfield (if all original, not refinished and with a good bore) might go $500.

The others will depend heavily on condition. Are they refinished? Where were they made? K98's were made by the Spanish, Czechs, Yugo's, etc. The SMLE might be made in India, GB or some commonwealth country.

skipbo32
March 11, 2011, 12:44 PM
here is the info i was given on them........






#2. 1891 Mosin-Nagant 7.92X54 (nominally called an 8mm). It fires ‘rimmed’ ammunition. This is a numbers matching piece, with Russian proof marks that was manufactured in 1909; Then re-worked in the Czech Republic in the late 20’s. It shows some combat wear, and was possibly used in the battle of Stalingrad in WWII. The bore and action are still in ‘good’ to ‘very good’ condition. It also has a very good numbers matching


#3. 98 Mauser (1898) MFG in early 1900’s (possibly for Spain) and most likely used in WWI.
This is an 7.92 - 8mm piece in very good condition, showing less than expected wear & tear for it’s age. Bore & action are in ‘good’ to ‘very good’ condition. (Cosmoline is still evident in the breech & magazine).



#4. U.S. Model 17 or also known as the P-17 MFG approximately 1917 by Enfield of England from a U.S. design. This rifle is in 30-06 cal, has matching #’s and is in very good visual condition, the barrel is very good, and the action is tight. This weapon is the ‘next generation’ following the “Springfield 1903-A3”



#5. 1918 MKIII SMLE (Short Magazine Lee Enfield) British .303; this piece has an unusual rear sight, with protective ‘wings’ on the sides. Bore & action in ‘good’ to ‘very good’ condition.

KodiakBeer
March 11, 2011, 01:23 PM
Well, much of his information is wrong, so I'd be leery of trusting his appraisal. The 1917 was not the "next generation" following the 1903. The 762X54 has never been "nominally called an 8mm". Spain did not participate in WWI.

They may be good rifles, but since this guy knows nothing about rifles I'd want to examine them myself.

You can pick up a good Mosin anywhere for about $79. The others... I'd pass unless they were dirt cheap.

skipbo32
March 11, 2011, 01:30 PM
well.....what's dirt cheap? should i just put a $100 bid on everything? i was thinking of maybe putting a $350 bid on the 1917. the Mauser looks nice. those bayonets are cheap right?

this is an estate sale, so naturally the guy isnt going to know about his guns. i think they were his dad's who died. and his dad was a gun collector.

cleardiddion
March 11, 2011, 01:31 PM
I don't think the Mauser is a WW1 rifle.
To me it looks like a Yugoslavian 24/47 because of the upper wood there and the bayonet.
I wouldn't bit more than 250 on that.

http://espolson.com/wp-content//yugo24-47.JPG

KodiakBeer
March 11, 2011, 01:43 PM
Yeah, I think you'd be safe at $350 with the P17 as long as it's all original and really has a good bore.

I'd bid $50 on the Mosin since you can pick them up anywhere for not much more.

The SMLE could be one of the Ishapore manufactured rifles, so I'd be very careful. It could be worth anywhere from $150 to $500 depending on model, manufacturer and condition.

The Mauser could be a Spanish made 98, or German 98 made for the Spanish. Or it could be a Spanish small ring (93) - I can't tell from the photo. I wouldn't bid more than $100 unless I could get more information.

carbine85
March 11, 2011, 03:13 PM
Last year I sold a 1917 Eddystone, properly marked and a horrible barrle for $350.00. I never would have paid that myself. I recently saw some very nice German Mausers for $250-300.00. My brother recently bought a Nagant that looks like new for $100.00.

iamkris
March 11, 2011, 04:46 PM
Man, those descriptions remind me of a bunch of guns I bought from an older gentleman's estate. Sometimes it is frightening how little people know...or more properly, how much stuff they get wrong. He gets ID wrong, calibers are wrong, the lineage of the M1917 is wrong. Pathetic.

As stated, wrong ID on the Mosin and the Mauser. The Mauser sure looks like a 24/47 and is likely worth right around $325.

The M1917 is worth a lot more than the $350 people are throwing around here. When the CMP still had them, they went for $500 and the CMP is usually "below market".

henschman
March 11, 2011, 04:53 PM
1917s in good condition can go for $700 or more... especially now that the CMP doesn't have them anymore.

skipbo32
March 11, 2011, 05:58 PM
thanks for the help guys. the guy who is selling the guns sent me some better detailed pics. the 1917 looks flawless and has all matching numbers. the mauser looks pretty good too and has matching numbers.

the MKIII enfield looks good, not great and the mosin nagant looks excellent.

anyone have any ideas what i should bid on each one?

skipbo32
March 11, 2011, 06:20 PM
im thinking this:

$100 on the mosin

$200 on the MkIII

$250 on the mauser

$375 on the 1917


what do yall think? should i submitt that and see what happens? or should i raise my bid on one of these? any help would be great. the auction ends at midnight tonight.

thanks.

Dr.Rob
March 11, 2011, 06:20 PM
The 1917 is the stand out. The Moisin you could pass on, not that rare. Ditto for the Mauser, Spanish Mausers aren't that rare.

The Enfield is a toss-up. Unless you REALLY want it, I might pass on one in better shape.

Keep the $$ you'd bid on the Mauser and Moisin, to bid on the 1917. I'd start bidding at $350, stop at 700-800. (Most for sale at Simpson's are less than $1000).

skipbo32
March 11, 2011, 06:23 PM
thanks dr. rob........the mauser is standing at $115 right now. should i at least put a $200 bid on it?

also....if i win the 1917....what kind of 30-06 can i shoot out of it? 150grain?

Cosmoline
March 11, 2011, 06:36 PM
The Mosin could be worth more depending on arsenal and year. But without more info it's not worth risking more than $150 on it. From the tiny pic it almost seems to have a high sight on the front. That would make it a Finn or Finn capture. Those are also pretty easy to get though. Just not enough info on it.

The 1917 is the obvious target for any acquisition though. It appears intact. Those are getting harder and harder to find. I can't tell from the pics if its parkerized (WWII rearsenal) or not. Keep an eye out for inspector marks on the stock--none other than Elmer Keith used to do some of that work.

The 1917 is a very tough action--stronger than the 1903. It can fire pretty much any .30'06 made if the headspace is good and the rifle is in good condition. I've seen those actions used for very potent magnum rifles. But please do not alter this one. They're a piece of American history that's getting tougher to find.

The Czech Mauser looks interwar. They were very plentiful a few years ago, not quite as easy to find now. I would put $200 on it. $250 tops if you really want to shoot 8x57JS.

Pronghorn
March 11, 2011, 07:02 PM
thats a 24/47 yugo mauser. In that condition its worth only about $150-200. the reason that is has a "good" bore is because yugoslavia never lined their bores with anything, and they shoot corrosive ammunition. I'd watch out with that one.

The mosin is going to be around $90-100 it appears to have a hex receiver, but if it doesn't that means it's just some re-worked factory frankenstein as was common for surplus rifles. And the battle of Stalingrad was just one of many fights going on at exactly the same time in a country that is larger than the U.S. I highly doubt that it was in the battle of Stalingrad unless it comes with proper documentation stating such. (these tall tales are common among suplus rifle collectors).

The enfield is a #1 Mk3 and those are a bit harder to come by now adays. The "unusual" rear sight is the exact opposite of unusual. All #1 Mk3's have it. The seller is confusing them with a #4 Mk1 which is the common WWII variant. I would bid no more than $300 for that rifle. Again, I would suggest looking at the bore and action of the rifle, and make sure it functions smoothly with no corrosion or damage to the mechanism. I have examined several and some had what appeared to be binding locking lugs.

The US model 17 is the nicest rifle out of all of them. I would go up to $600 for that one. However, I would check the butt stock and finish on the metal before buying it. If it matters to you (I don't know if your a serious collector or not). It appears to have been refinished. I believe that the finish on the metal for this pattern rifle during this era should be slightly green. Also, the wood should show basic wear and tear, but this one does not. It also appears that the buttplate was colored the same finish as the wood (A mistake that many make when re-finishing wood on surplus guns).

The model 1400 the "jam o matic" as my grandfather says. My experience and information all points to this gun negatively. However, It is in good condition and I would make a reasonable offer of $200-250.

Cosmoline
March 11, 2011, 07:05 PM
I must be getting rusty on Mauser ID. I thought the Yugo 24/47's were CZ made.

06
March 11, 2011, 07:18 PM
That "17" is a nice shooter. I have fired from 150 to 220 gn in mine and it handled them flawlessly. Smooth shooter.

rule303
March 11, 2011, 09:23 PM
The Mosin is an 1891 dragoon, not the usual refurbed 91/30's we are used to seeing on sale for $79. Depending on the manufactrer,date, condition, and any capture marks present it could be worth as much or more than the other rifles.

Ian
March 11, 2011, 09:30 PM
Yeah, that's not a 91/30, it's an M1891. Definitely something to snag if everyone else thinks it's just a run of the mill Mosin.

skipbo32
March 11, 2011, 11:23 PM
so how can you tell the Mosin is "special"....sorry im a noob at these guns. how much should i bid on the Mosin?

im gunna really make a push to get the P17 though. and i might put 150 on the mauser.

Sunray
March 11, 2011, 11:32 PM
"...protective ‘wings’ on the sides..." As mentioned that's the way No. 1 Mk III's came. Certainly not enough info for even a 'ball park' value. Wouldn't part with $200 for it in that condition.
Don't even think about buying it without getting proof of good headspace and the barrel's internal diameter either. Lee-Enfields are notorious for being assembled out of parts bins with zero QC. Not that one though. Too rough. Fixing bad headspace is easy, if you have a handful of bolt heads to try with proper guages(no bits of tape, paper, shim stock or anything else). Stripped bolt heads run $13.30 each from Gunparts.
The barrels can measure from .311" to .315" and still be considered ok. Over .315", the barrel is shot out.

Smoovbiscuit
March 11, 2011, 11:39 PM
as one of the previous posts said, not all mosin's are worth less than $100. The older ones are worth much more than the refurbished ww2 models.

Thats about the extent of my knowledge on them, but I do know than some can be rare and expensive.

Disparate
March 11, 2011, 11:46 PM
Kodiakbeer,

K98s were not made by the Spanish, Czechoslovakians or the Yugoslavioans....K98s were only made by the Germans.

The Spanish contracted for Mausers. The Czechs contracted for mausers as well (V24s, etc) and the Yugos made a different albeit similar 7.92 mm bolt action (M-48 and varients). The K-98 is a pure German rifle (actually carbine).

Ian
March 12, 2011, 12:05 AM
Hard to know exactly what the Mosin is worth without having more detail on it. With all the less common old guns, the difference between common and exquisite is all in the details, and it takes a lot of time to learn it all. I'm no Mosin expert, but if it were me I'd go up to about $200 for that M1891. More, probably, if it were a Remington or Chatellerault manufacture, or Finnish marked.

skipbo32
March 12, 2011, 01:14 AM
Update:

The auction is over. I got 3 guns for these amounts

1917 for....... $375
mosin nagant 1891 for...... $125 (comes w/ 400 rds)
98 mauser for...... $235

Cosmoline
March 12, 2011, 01:45 AM
Wow, excellent job on the 1917!

skipbo32
March 12, 2011, 02:41 AM
thanks man.....i paid a little more than i wanted on the other two.

i got into a bidding war on the mauser 98 and i really wanted that one for a hunting rifle. maybe i can mount a scope to it.....if any one knows how.

the mosin nagant i put a little extra on that one just because of the advice on this thread. if anyone can fill me in on the difference in the 1891 mosin and the other models that would be great.

but yes, i felt like i got a steal on the 1917. i think i could have got it for a little less too.

Dr.Rob
March 12, 2011, 05:39 AM
Congrats, what you overpaid on the Mauser you made up for on the 1917. Big time. Even a mismatch 1917 is worth 500+.

KodiakBeer
March 12, 2011, 10:20 AM
The K-98 is a pure German rifle (actually carbine).

The problem is IDing this as a K98, and IDing the condition.

skipbo32
March 12, 2011, 12:26 PM
thanks for all your help and feedback guys. and yes, the mauser seems to be a 24-47 yugo model. i paid about $40 more than what i wanted, but the gun does come with a nice bayonet and 75rds in stripper clips.......so thats a bonus i guess.

when i recieve the guns, i will take better pics of them for an update, and maybe you guys can help me figure out all the "stamps" and such.

the Mosin came with a big bonus.......400rds of ammo.

what i would like to do with the Mauser, is figure out what mount and scope to put on it for a deer rifle.

BrocLuno
March 12, 2011, 02:01 PM
Very good :) Nice start to a mil-surp collection. Having some experience with the 1917, I'd sure like to see your photos. Lots of idiosyncrasies to how, where, and when they got issued or used. I'm sure it's the same for the others, I just don't know about them.

tlatoani
March 12, 2011, 07:59 PM
400rds is ~$80, right? Nice.

Vaarok
March 12, 2011, 08:31 PM
Late to the thread, but a 1909 dated M1891 Mosin is worth around $350. You did awright there. The M91/30s that were made in WW2 are $79, the WW1 rifles are quite a bit more desirable. If it's actually Czech marked, even moreso.

The other two rifles were low-market, but looked decent.

hirundo82
March 12, 2011, 09:06 PM
the mosin nagant i put a little extra on that one just because of the advice on this thread. if anyone can fill me in on the difference in the 1891 mosin and the other models that would be great.

The best place to look for Mosin information is 7.26x54r.net; you may want to start here (http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/Mosinprimer.htm) and here (http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinIDII.htm).

The most obvious difference between the M91 Mosins and the far more common M91/30 is the front sight; the M91 has a blade (http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/1005.jpg) sight (http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/1006.jpg), while the M91/30 usually has a globe (http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/1022.jpg) sight (http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/1023.jpg).

skipbo32
March 24, 2011, 02:23 AM
to those who still subscribe to this thread:

update:

i received the 1917 and the serial number begins with the letter "W"

i understand this stands for winchester but does this also mean that this rifle is indeed a 1914 .303 british enfield and not the US 30.06 1917?

rklessdriver
March 24, 2011, 11:10 AM
i received the 1917 and the serial number begins with the letter "W"

i understand this stands for winchester but does this also mean that this rifle is indeed a 1914 .303 british enfield and not the US 30.06 1917?

Yes, the W preceding the SN indicates you have a Winchester mfgr'd P14 Enfield... Like this:

http://www.enfieldrifles.ca/ri7a_files/image003.jpg

1917 US rifles have the manufacture clearly marked on the reciever ring and there are not any SN prefixes. Like this:

http://www.icollector.com/images/1618/18701/18701_1971_2_lg.jpg


If your P14 still has all matching parts you still did pretty good at $375.00
Will

skipbo32
March 24, 2011, 11:42 AM
which is worth more? the 1917 or p14?

Phaethon
March 24, 2011, 03:44 PM
That was actually a great deal on the Mosin-Nagant; it probably cost 150$ alone, and 440 rounds of Bulgarian ammo are at least 70$. It's original M1891 spec, as you can see from the old leaf style sight, which should be marked in Arshins. It's probably also an inch or two longer than your standard 91/30. What's the manufacturing date on it?

The Mauser was about an even deal, too. The inclusion of the bayonet and scabbard puts its "MSRP" at probably around 250$. Don't get fooled into thinking it's a K98, however; it's not. It's either a Yugoslavian 24/47 or a Czechoslovakian VZ-24 (some say CZ-24 for "Czech", but this isn't accurate). The easiest way to identify the Mauser is to just look at the stampings on the side or top of the receiver. If you see "Zbrojovka" or "Brno" anywhere on it, it's Czechoslovakian.

hiawatha
March 24, 2011, 04:15 PM
Which is worth more between the P14 and the M1917 depends largely on where you are. In the US, the 1917 will be worth more. Around here, they're going for ~$650 now. That's because we like .30-06 here. In the rest of the world, there are many places where people prefer the .303. Anyway, even if what you got is a P14, you did well. The Mosin-Nagant will have a slightly longer barrel than the later and more common 91/30, as well as having the blade front sight instead of the hooded post.

isc
March 24, 2011, 04:30 PM
I've been looking for an original condition 1917 for years. All I ever see are butchered sporterized rifles. I'd pay $500 for a very good -excellent original 1917 without having to think about it long.

I'd pay $300 for a U.S. Mosin and $400 for a french or Czech mosin in the same condition. If you decide you want to sell them and/or trade to make a quick buck let me know...

skipbo32
March 24, 2011, 05:20 PM
UPDATE:

to those who follow this thread......

here is the mosin nagant i bought with close ups of the stamps. anyone chime in if they know the meaning. i will post pics of the other guns soon.

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/skipbo32/DSC04167.jpg
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/skipbo32/DSC04168.jpg
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/skipbo32/DSC04166.jpg
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/skipbo32/DSC04170.jpg
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/skipbo32/DSC04169.jpg

skipbo32
March 24, 2011, 06:01 PM
here is an update of the "1917" i bought. and as you can see it is really a P14. the gun is in great condition however. stock is perfect, action is perfect, bore is a bit dirty but is cleaning out nicely. still.....not a bad gun for $375.

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/skipbo32/DSC04171.jpg

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/skipbo32/DSC04172.jpg

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/skipbo32/DSC04174.jpg

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/skipbo32/DSC04175.jpg

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/skipbo32/DSC04180.jpg

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/skipbo32/DSC04173.jpg

skipbo32
March 24, 2011, 06:19 PM
and last but not least....here is the update on the mauser.......which as you can see, most of you all were right, in that it is a yugo 24-47.

this gun came very clean. shiny bore, smooth action......all parts matching. the bayonet does not have matching numbers to the gun but it's sheath has matching numbers to the bayonet.

all in all.....this set up plus 75rds of 8mm in stripper clips is not a bad deal for $235.

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/skipbo32/DSC04182.jpg

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/skipbo32/DSC04183.jpg

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/skipbo32/DSC04184.jpg

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/skipbo32/DSC04185.jpg

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/skipbo32/DSC04186.jpg

ball3006
March 24, 2011, 07:56 PM
may be a Remington or New England Westinghouse. The dark wood, walnut, is the key. They go in the 300 dollar range today. It probably is a Finn rifle which is a premium.

The 1917 may be a Winchester, Remington, or Eddystone. It is stamped on the reciver. They were never made in the UK, only in the USA. Even the P14 was only made in the USA. They go for 6-700 bucks here.

The Mauser looks like a 24/47 which go for around 150 bucks around here. The front sight hood is the key here.

The Enfield may be a sleeper. It has the unit disk on the butt stock. Those go for around 300 around here.

All the rifles are only worth what the bore condition is.....dark bore, lower the bid. Bright bore, raise the bid.....I have many copies of the above rifles.....chris3

I should have read all the posts.......You got a good deal on the P14. Being a Winchester is a premium. It shoots British 303 ammo. The Mosin Nagant is an Izzy, I can't spell the real name. It is Finn stamped and is in a US made walnut stock. You done good with this one. You paid too much for the Mauser but it will be a good shooter for many years to come.......chris3

Phaethon
March 24, 2011, 10:48 PM
It's true that Mosins have flooded the market in the past few years and you can get a good one for peanuts, but I would have paid top dollar for that specimen you have there. In original 1891 configuration (very rare, considering that the Soviets updated their arsenal without mercy during and after WWII to standardized 91/30 specs), with very early 1909 stampings, and captured and stamped by the Finns to top it all off (SA stamped - it stands for the Finnish Civil Guard, I believe). How does the bolt work? Is it smooth or is it clicky?

If you're interested, the Russian script on there reads "Izhevskiy Oruzheyni Zavod", which just stands for "Izhevsk Armory". I can't read your 24/47's markings, as I don't think it's Russian. The word may refer to a Yugoslavian armory that I'm not familiar with.

All in all, considering the accessories and the ammunition you walked away from all of them with, I think these were great deals. Do you know what the condition of the barrel and bores are like on all of them?

Vaarok
March 27, 2011, 10:31 PM
ПРЕДУЗЕЋЕ 44 = Prezduce 44, "Enterprise #44", was a state arms factory in Yugoslavia that did both rework and production.

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?181201-Yugo-24-47-factory-codes

TheVision
March 28, 2011, 12:44 AM
I've been looking for an original condition 1917 for years. All I ever see are butchered sporterized rifles. I'd pay $500 for a very good -excellent original 1917 without having to think about it long.


You should have checked out Empire Arms a week ago. They had a Remington and an Eddystone.

Pictures forthcoming. :)

skipbo32
March 28, 2011, 02:02 AM
Phaethon....

the bores look good on all of them. i had to clean the mosin nagaint very good as it had a lot of "gunk" in the barrel......but now it is very shiny.

so why does the "Finn" stamp make it worth more? what is this rifle worth, about?

sorry, im a noob at this.

snake284
March 28, 2011, 03:07 AM
Well, other than getting the MN and the Mauser backwards this isn't a bad start. I would say the Mauser in good to very good condition would be worth between $200-$400. I know that leaves a lot of slack in the estimate there but I can't tell a whole lot about them in these pics. This is just ballpark here anyway. The SMLE I'd say should go for $300-$400. The 1917 U.S. Enfield I would say if it's in good condition with no rust or pitting I would say should be worth $400-$500 or even more if it's pristine. THe Mosin looks to be a 91-30 of which are still going around the country for under $100. And the model 1400 Win. Shotgun I'd give him $200-$300 tops. If it was a model 12 Win. you might get $500+. That's my guess or my opinion. Sorry I couldn't be more specific, but I don't want to lead you on. You may can get a little more for them, but I don't thing a whole lot more.

snake284
March 28, 2011, 03:13 AM
Well, I posted after the auction was over but as usual I didn't read up the page. I just took my guesses and then after I posted, I saw what you paid for them. I was well in the ball park with my guesses, but you never know what you'll end up paying in any auction. But I'd say you got some deals here. Now lock them away and treat em like gold.

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