[REL1203]

So over the last week or so, i have made various loads for my new 300WM R700 XCR. I have 300 or so new Remington brass but I havent broken into them yet as I wanted to go through some of my used or cheaper brass while learning about the round and what my rifle likes. I load up 25 or so using H1000, 25 or so using RE22 all using 50rounds of WW Super brass I had (all once fired). 99% of them shot fine, 2 of them after shooting them and lifting the bolt to the highest part, i had to give a very hard pull to get the bolt back. The brass looked fine, no problem there, no over pressure or anything. I guess I should add I for resizing, for the new brass or the brass that wasnt shot in my bolt rifle first, I am using a Lee Full length sizer, and a very slight crimp from a lee FCD. I move on to some other load, it was IMR4831, but I had no more of that same brass, and use some Once First 300WM brass I bought at a gun show (it was around 50 rounds or so for $15 from Georgia Arms reloaders if any of you know them). Most of it was FC or WCC. I seperate the brads, and this load was all WCC. I put them through the full length resizer and fully prep them, trim, ect... I got to load the first round and bam, I cant even get the bolt closed. I get to the point where you do the last hard push forward (where I think the extractor locks on the bottom of the case) and you start pushing the bolt towards the ground but the damn thing wont budge at all in either direction at this point. I cant extract it, I can lock the bolt, nothing. Needless to say, after 5min of trying at the range, I pack up (with the loaded round in the gun sadly) but the bolt not fully closed (rifle still on safety) and head home. I get the bolt handle wrapped in a few towles and start lighting tapping it with a rubber mallet and finally get the bolt down and round extracted, but I am really perplexed, I tried a few other rounds from the same group and none of them load, so its definitly something with all this brass, but I am trying to figure out what.

could this be bulge related because of the Belted case? I have a Redding Body die that I use for the rounds I neck size. I tried running a few of these rounds through the body die now, but they still wont load into the gun...

Someone help me please, what am I missing?

Thanks

[blarby]

Well, you could have a couple of issues.

By any chance, can you post a decent pic of the round you finally managed to get out of the rifle ?

And of these rounds :

What bullets are you using ? ( Manufacturer, Weight, Type)

What is the Combined Overall Length of the rounds you are producing ?

Maybe its late for me, but its a little hard to decipher : The round you chambered that got stuck- was the brass full length resized and trimmed before reloading, or did you take another piece of fired brass ( either fired from this weapon or another) and just reload it ?

[Walkalong]

I do not load that caliber, and have not looked at charge weights, but difficulty in opening the bolt is generally from high pressure. Subsequent difficulty in sizing with the sizer still set the same makes me think high pressure as well. Without measuring case heads before and after you don't really know if they have expanded too much.

If you size to headspace on the shoulder the belt is just along for the ride, but if you screwed the sizer down to meet the shell holder it is probably headspacing on the belt, and may even have excessive headspace.

I would start with some different used brass, size to headspace on the shoulder, eliminating the belt in the equation, and start again with a little lower powder charge.

[243winxb]

Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die for brass fired in different rifles. http://www.larrywillis.com/

[NCsmitty]

It's likely the ill fitting brass was fired in a larger chamber, and their shoulder needs to be set back a bit to fit in your tighter chamber.
Some layout blue or just coloring the shoulder and neck with a marker and safely running the shells into the chamber, will show if the shoulder is touching first and preventing the action from being closed. It should shine the area contacting the chamber.
You'll need to break down the ammo that doesn't fit, to correct the problem. Basically, lower the FL sizer down until the brass fits the chamber.



NCsmitty

[Walkalong]

The way I read it they only got tight after firing. Maybe I missed something.

[gamestalker]

I don't load for this cartridge, but I do load belted magnums. But I recently learned some new and interesting facts about this cartrdige. It's apparently of epic importance to trim the brass to SAMMI spec..
And since I couldn't really understand from your post if you had FL sized this brass, I would deffinitely do so. It's not at all uncommon for brass fired from a different firearm to have difficulties chambering, if not FL sized first.
And check your seating depth to see if the bullet is jamming into the lands. If this is the cause of your problem, it should very easy to detect, considering the amount of force you decribed necessary to get the action opened. Those bullets should have some very noticable markings, or even some damage around the olgive. But in all honesty, I would bet your poblem is in the resizing process.
Make sure your FL die is adjusted so the shell holder is making light contact with the resizing die. If it isn't, your not resetting the shoulder, and that would also cause the type issues your experiencing.

[243winxb]

I guess I should add I for resizing, for the new brass or the brass that wasnt shot in my bolt rifle first, but I had no more of that same brass, and use some Once First 300WM brass I bought at a gun show Hard to tell.

[243winxb]

I got to load the first round and bam, I cant even get the bolt closed. This is the "gun show" brass, fired in a different rifle. I think??

[REL1203]

By any chance, can you post a decent pic of the round you finally managed to get out of the rifle ?

And of these rounds :

What bullets are you using ? ( Manufacturer, Weight, Type)

What is the Combined Overall Length of the rounds you are producing ?

Maybe its late for me, but its a little hard to decipher : The round you chambered that got stuck- was the brass full length resized and trimmed before reloading, or did you take another piece of fired brass ( either fired from this weapon or another) and just reload it ?

I will try to get a picture.

I was using Hornady 208g AMAX.

COAL was 3.62" and Case OAL was 2.615

The brass was once fired before me. I cleaned it, deprimed, full Length resized it, cleaned primer pocket, trimmed (if it needed it), loaded it. It was fully preppered properly.

[REL1203]

I do not load that caliber, and have not looked at charge weights, but difficulty in opening the bolt is generally from high pressure. Subsequent difficulty in sizing with the sizer still set the same makes me think high pressure as well. Without measuring case heads before and after you don't really know if they have expanded too much.

I never found a round of this, so it is not pressure related right now, it wouldnt chamber whats so ever on the initial load of the round.

[REL1203]

It's likely the ill fitting brass was fired in a larger chamber, and their shoulder needs to be set back a bit to fit in your tighter chamber.

This is my thoughts as well at this point.

Some layout blue or just coloring the shoulder and neck with a marker and safely running the shells into the chamber, will show if the shoulder is touching first and preventing the action from being closed. It should shine the area contacting the chamber.
You'll need to break down the ammo that doesn't fit, to correct the problem. Basically, lower the FL sizer down until the brass fits the chamber.

Good idea, i can try it now with a sharpie and see what I can find...

[REL1203]

The way I read it they only got tight after firing. Maybe I missed something.

Sorry if I was confusing in my post, these rounds never loaded. I shot 50 or so rounds before this one, but they were different brass and a completely different load recipe... As soon as I got to this brass and recipe is where I ran into problems.

[REL1203]

I don't load for this cartridge, but I do load belted magnums. But I recently learned some new and interesting facts about this cartrdige. It's apparently of epic importance to trim the brass to SAMMI spec..
And since I couldn't really understand from your post if you had FL sized this brass, I would deffinitely do so. It's not at all uncommon for brass fired from a different firearm to have difficulties chambering, if not FL sized first.

I can assure you these were all either below 2.62" either naturally or trimmed by me.

And check your seating depth to see if the bullet is jamming into the lands. If this is the cause of your problem, it should very easy to detect, considering the amount of force you decribed necessary to get the action opened. Those bullets should have some very noticable markings, or even some damage around the olgive. But in all honesty, I would bet your poblem is in the resizing process.
Make sure your FL die is adjusted so the shell holder is making light contact with the resizing die. If it isn't, your not resetting the shoulder, and that would also cause the type issues your experiencing.

This is my best guess as well, but right now. I have full resized these all. I have my Lee Full Size resized tightened down when the shell holder hits the resizer, and then 1/6turn more and tight.

[blarby]

"COAL was 3.62" and Case OAL was 2.615"

Saami max length for the brass is 2.620" so you are good there.

However, Saami max length for the finished cartridge is 3.340.

I would suspect this is where your problem is. If your case is of the correct length as demonstrated, this error is more than likely a result of seating the bullet too shallow in the case.

Try resetting your seating die to allow a finished round of no longer than 3.340 and see if this corrects your issue.

Small side note : You should never have need excessive force to close even the tightest of bolt actions. I'm glad you were able to remedy your issue at home, but what a scary ride, eh ?

[REL1203]

I got to load the first round and bam, I cant even get the bolt closed.
This is the "gun show" brass, fired in a different rifle. I think??

Correct, I shot some other 300WM brass I bought of a memeber on here just fine after doing the same process. As soon as I got to this new reciple test, i started using the WCC brass I got from the gun show. These loads were all WCC brass put through the same process of Full Length resize, trimmed, ect....

The thickest part I can find is down by the belt part of the case, and its 0.5135 at its thickest part

[blarby]

If this does not correct your issue, we're going to have to get some photos of this brass you are using.... it might be suspect as well ! But lets get the easy stuff first !

[blarby]

Thats def. within spec. I wonder if its shouldered down wrong. Sometimes a picture truly is worth a thousand words :) then again, sometimes pis are useless :)

For a great measure of what your brass should look like/ measure out too... do you have the insert that came with your lee dies ?

[blarby]

If not, here's a good one :

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/300WinchesterMagnum02.png/550px-300WinchesterMagnum02.png

[243winxb]

Check the SAAMI drawing, you might be a hair large in the belt area? :scrutiny: http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/300%20Winchester%20Magnum.pdfMr. Lee Said > Can't close bolt on rifle

First make sure the the sizing die is adjusted so that the shell holder contacts the base of the die when the ram is at the top of its stroke when resizing a case. This ensures that the sizing die is bumping the shoulder back as well as reducing the diameter of the case. If the shell holder does not contact the base of the die, the diameter of the case is squeezed down, making the case (and distance to the shoulder) longer.

If this does not solve the problem, return the sizing die with a couple of fired cases, and we can modify the die to suit. Our address is:

Lee Precision Inc,
4275 Hwy. U
Hartford, WI 53027.

[REL1203]

Check the SAAMI drawing, you might be a hair large in the belt area? http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC...r%20Magnum.pdfMr. Lee Said >
Quote:
Can't close bolt on rifle

First make sure the the sizing die is adjusted so that the shell holder contacts the base of the die when the ram is at the top of its stroke when resizing a case. This ensures that the sizing die is bumping the shoulder back as well as reducing the diameter of the case. If the shell holder does not contact the base of the die, the diameter of the case is squeezed down, making the case (and distance to the shoulder) longer.

If this does not solve the problem, return the sizing die with a couple of fired cases, and we can modify the die to suit. Our address is:

Lee Precision Inc,
4275 Hwy. U
Hartford, WI 53027.

Now thats a good idea, i am gonna guess thats whats happening.

Here are a few pics of the case.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_Ep01MeuwgNA/TX12qrJCYNI/AAAAAAAAKnI/xo2SCBjLaSw/s912/IMG_5525.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_Ep01MeuwgNA/TX12tMBBvKI/AAAAAAAAKnY/vCu58uL0ZrI/s912/IMG_5527.JPG

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_Ep01MeuwgNA/TX12voBlM5I/AAAAAAAAKnc/o0ZGX9yQQWc/s912/IMG_5528.JPG

I had already seated the bullet deaper in these pics but alas it still did nothing...

[NCsmitty]

How does the brass that was fired initially, compare dimensionally to the brass that would not fit the chamber?
Are the bullets being crimped in with the seating die?

Have you dropped the sizing die and resized any of the brass that would not chamber?

OK, I see the pics and no problem with the crimp.



NCsmitty

[Walkalong]

Well, I missed the fact that they never would go in the chamber.

That is a case not fully sized or so expanded from the previous owner firing an overload in them that the sizer can't size them properly.

[bloominonion]

I had to check, I noticed in one of your posts you said you trimmed, then re-sized. I am hoping this is a typo, because the re-sizing process is what makes them need a trimming. Just wanted to check. Coulda been a simple error.

I had the same thing with my 30-06 cases. I had to trim the cases down, as every case (after a single firing) had rifling marks on it. I was basically cramming the brass into the rifling.

[blarby]

The shell you are holding, its length is within saami spec ?

If it is, I suspect your brass is malformed.

The reason I say this, is I got the best zoom I can on the case head, and it looks like its polished right at the the shoulder.... possibly indicating a shoulder rub.

Normally I polish my brass super shiny, and I can see imperfections right away... in yours, the brass is a little darker, but helps to outline the shoulder rub.

I would full length resize and trim one of these pieces of brass, seat a bullet to the proper depth without charging it- and compare it to a functioning round.

If the one you full length resize then chambers- you have your problem/solution.

[REL1203]

I had to check, I noticed in one of your posts you said you trimmed, then re-sized. I am hoping this is a typo, because the re-sizing process is what makes them need a trimming. Just wanted to check. Coulda been a simple error.

You are correct, I resized then trimmed, i just typed wrong.. Thanks for letting me know, will update post

[REL1203]

The shell you are holding, its length is within saami spec ?
Yes, it seems everything I measured, including case length is all within spec.

[blarby]

Then I'm going to assume its a shoulder problem- or a serious mechanical problem with your rifle.

Lets hope ya got some bad brass.

[REL1203]

ok, here are 2 more shots of the case head, one with flash, one without. This is not the round in question, but another one from the same pile, thats unloaded, been Full length resized, and wont chamber at all in my rifle and does the same thing where it slides the bolt in fine until the very last part.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_Ep01MeuwgNA/TX1-Zj1y80I/AAAAAAAAKn8/8fZIuXZRglE/s576/IMG_5529.JPG
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_Ep01MeuwgNA/TX1-Tmn-r1I/AAAAAAAAKn4/hW56cxqQ_iw/s576/IMG_5530.JPG

so I have taken a few of my once fired brass that I shot as factory new rounds, and right above the belt the thickness is .511, almost all of them. Now I took some of the brass i bought (which OK, i get now was a bad idea, just looking to see if I can salvage it or what other type of dies I need), and all there thickness right above the belt is .513-.514, that is after a full size resize and running it through the Body die... Doesnt seem my Lee FL die is making that any smaller right above the belt...

[blarby]

Ok, yup- thats your culprit right there.

Its not on the banding, which is why I was confused. Pictures are worth a thousand words sometimes.

Lee FL die wont go that far.

Pull what bullets ya can and save the components... pitch the brass.


Sometimes, the foundry gods are angry.... looks like thats what ya got. Short of lathing them down manually..... I'd say pitch em.

This can also occasionally happen when people load SUPER hot loads... It cant stretch on the belt ( thats what its there for) so it stretches at the next place it can.

[REL1203]

Then I'm going to assume its a shoulder problem- or a serious mechanical problem with your rifle.

Lets hope ya got some bad brass.

All the factory rounds I shoot in it, it shoots amazing. The 50 or so shots I shot before this, with the WW Super Win brass, recipes with both RE22 and H1000, shot great, including a load of 76g H1000 on my 208AMAX that all 3 shots were touching... I got to think this brass is just bad, but even so, with this being bad, i would think the full length resizer would have sized that properly... Would the Larry Willis die work better? an RCBS Small Base Die? I dont care about the money or the cases I bought at this point, but I want to keep the good brass I do have in good working order (especially the new brass I have).

[blarby]

I'll ask around, but I'm not sure of any dies that size that far down.

Look at it this way- If those are indeed pressure stretches... you were a hot load away from little pieces of rifle.:eek:

I'd be extra careful about buying second hand cases. At the very least I'd give them a serious once over with a set of digital calipers much like I do my range pickup brass before use.

[243winxb]

all there thickness right above the belt is .513-.514, I think you may have found your problem. Would the Larry Willis die work better? Yes, his collet die will size the belt area, where Normal FL sizing dies do not touch. I feel this area should never expand. An over pressure loading will expand it. This is not a good sign IMO. I have never seen this problem when loading 7mm & 300 mags, but then i start with brass only fired in my rifles. Maybe it is common when using brass from another rifle, i do not know. Ask Larry, he posts on here. send him a PM. User name is " Innovative "

[hancjamk]

I had the same problem with 300 Win Mag after 3 loadings. Larry Willis collet dies corrected that problem.

[Walkalong]

I feel this area should never expand. An over pressure loading will expand it. This is not a good sign IMO.
I agree.

[blarby]

Well there ya go, where there's a need- someone invents the tool !

I would be wary of using this brass if its been stretched that far out of spec in that area, and then cold formed back into spec.

Kinda like bangin dents out of an Oxy tank and filling it- not a super idea. You've basically just created the spot where the container will fail:eek:

Gonna be lookin in to those larry dies though- never knew that was out there !

[Walkalong]

By all accounts they work very well. Many folks have posted positive things about them.

[Innovative]

REL1203 .......

You can easily see the cause of your problem by just measuring case diameter (just above the belt) with the wide part of your calipers. New belted cases start out at .507" and when they become .513" they will not chamber in very many different rifles.

However, it's a common mistake for shooters to assume this only affects brass that has been fired in different rifles. Case bulges are especially common with belted magnum calibers, and the reason case bulge confuses so many shooters is that it doesn't happen to a case when it's in the chamber. It happens during the reloading process.

This problem is made much worse if you bump the shoulder back too far, because it causes belted handloads to stretch too much when they are fired. This makes your brass paper thin, and the continued stretching eventually causes headspace separation. Read my website, and you'll see how over 4,700 shooters have solved this problem with 2 of my patented reloading tools.

- Larry

[Faret]

Don't know if this helps but a buddy of mine wanted some 7mm mag reloaded. Resized some with his redding die set and they would not chamber. I then resized them again with my rcbs dies and they chambered. Come to find out the redding die resized the belt to .513 and the rcbs sized them to .511.

[Innovative]

Conventional FL dies can't consistently resize belted cases to .511" without also plowing brass towards the head of the case. The reason is that a conventional die needs tight contact on the tapered body, then it needs to squeeze down another .100" farther just to reduce case diameter by .001" and the belt restricts that movement.

The patented Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die squeezes belted cases ONLY inward to .510" diameter. The top of this die also works as a case width gauge to show when this extra resizing is needed - and when the case is properly resized.

[General Lee]

Another option you have is a small base size die.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=139390

[gamestalker]

What happens when you try to chamber an empty resized case? This is a practice I use when getting ready to load for my 7 mag rifles since I neck my brass. If I have to bump the shoulder back a little they'll get too tight, or so tight they won't chamber.

[Innovative]

REL1203 ........

The small base die is a very logical solution. However, the diameter of a small base die (compared to your chamber) is way too tight. This causes brass to be plowed rearward against the edge of the belt. This build-up of brass is just above the web (solid part) of your case, and there's no way to compress it then. You can measure case diameter with calipers, and you'll see the whole story.

That's the reason I designed (and patented) the Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die.

[TheCracker]

I had a similar problem with some 308 loads once.

This was with brass that I had been neck sizing and needed to full size since the bolt was getting tight and I need full size to bump the shoulder back.

Basically I loaded about 90 rounds and then tested at home. They were WAY worse when closing the bolt and some would not even close.

So i pulled a couple and decided to full size the brass and test to see if just the case would close. It was still bad. So I started studying it and tried again. Then I noticed that the shell plate was not making contact with the die. Readjusted the die correctly and problem solved! I had to pull about 90 rounds!! That sucked. After resizing correctly there was absolutely no problem.

Long story short, make sure your brass is going all the way into the die and your shell plate is making FULL FIRM contact with the full sizing die.

[Innovative]

Hydrostatic Shock .....

Resizing is very simple with non-belted cases like the .308 Winchester. Your advice is logical, and it easily fixed your sizing problem with the .308 Win. However, it's a very different story when resizing belted calibers, and the worst thing he can do is to run the shellholder into a FL die.

Here's why:

Unlike the .308 Win., factory belted ammo always headspaces on the belt, and bumping the shoulder back too far causes serious cases to stretch (at the shoulder) when fired. That makes brass become paper thin, and every firing allows belted cases to thin (and bulge) even more.

That's why I recommend using the Digital Headspace Gauge. It measures the clearance that YOUR handloads have in YOUR particular chamber. Even though ALL rifle handloads must maintain the smallest clearance possible (at the shoulder), it's especially important with belted calibers.

Read about the Digital Headspace Gauge. It works on ALL different calibers, and it takes the guess work out of resizing handloads.

[TheCracker]

Hydrostatic Shock .....

Resizing is very simple with non-belted cases like the .308 Winchester. Your advice is logical, and it easily fixed your sizing problem with the .308 Win. However, it's a very different story when resizing belted calibers, and the worst thing he can do is to run the shellholder into a FL die.

Here's why:

Unlike the .308 Win., factory belted ammo always headspaces on the belt, and bumping the shoulder back too far causes serious cases to stretch (at the shoulder) when fired. That makes brass become paper thin, and every firing allows belted cases to thin (and bulge) even more.

That's why I recommend using the Digital Headspace Gauge. It measures the clearance that YOUR handloads have in YOUR particular chamber. Even though ALL rifle handloads must maintain the smallest clearance possible (at the shoulder), it's especially important with belted calibers.

Read about the Digital Headspace Gauge. It works on ALL different calibers, and it takes the guess work out of resizing handloads.

I have zero experience with belted magnums except pulling the trigger on my brothers 7mm mag a few times!

[Walkalong]

I have to agree with sizing belted ammo to headspace on the shoulder instead of the belt. You must have some way to measure this and Larry's tool is one good way to do it. Naturally there are others as well.