Gun shop ethics. Where to draw the line?


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csbassplayer2003
March 13, 2011, 12:52 PM
Ok I my neck of the woods, we have all of 2 places to shop for guns. One is a mom and pop type gun stores with limited hours, but generally friendly folks and so so pricing. The other is a shop has a range attached to it. Other than those two, its an hour to the nearest Cabelas and also involves crossing state lines (so no direct handgun purchases). One of the two stores me and my friends are about fed up with (the one that has the range). Not only are the people rude, and arrogant, but downright unethical.

Example 1.

Whatever you have bought already isn't good enough. In this case, My Safariland holster wasn't near as good as his nylon Bianchi (which was obviously overpriced). The WWB ammo I usually shoot is crap compared to this Aguilla target ammo that is 10 buck more A BOX of 50.

Example 2.

Taking advantage of customers.

Was there buying a mag holder for my P220 and one of the counters was right behind me. Guy there looking at revolvers. I overhead that his house had been broken into, and he was asking about a Ruger GP100. The said "those are very rare and hard to find" (later come to find out, ANY gun is hard to find for them, so they can use it as a means to increase the price). Pure BS, but what happened next floored me even more. The clerk reached into the case and pulled out a used SW 686, obviously costing a lot more. Rural king down the road had 2 GPs so they couldn't have been that hard to find (they just recently opened a firearms department). But guess what? They guy fell for it. I wanted so bad to tell the guy the clerk was BS, but that is a private business, and obviously I would have gotten in trouble.

Example 3.

Putting customers in danger.

My buddy was there one afternoon looking at Glocks. Their prices were somewhat competitive. He overheard a younger lady asking about 9mm defense ammo. What did the clerk hand her? Remington FMJ ammo. Why? "because it has less recoil". I don't even want to speculate on the implications of this, but needless to say, this directly puts her in danger. My friend at that point walked out and vowed never to come back.

At what point do you say "it is not worth it" due to a businesses ethic and how they treat the customers or lie to them? Again, one of 2 local shops, the other being smaller and having limited hours. What would you do?

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SharpsDressedMan
March 13, 2011, 01:00 PM
Either plan on trips to the big towns several hours away for gun purchases (I'm sure there are ones that are professional and will appreciate your business), and then limit ALL your small purchases, accessories, ammo, etc, anything that can be shipped direct, to online or mail order. etc. Half of your complaints against the little shops is crap over accessories (mine is better than yours, etc). If you don't speak of the little stuff, just keep it business, and limit your interest and POSSIBLE purchases to the big items that you MAY order from them, and only if the price is right, they will either respect you or let you know you are not welcome at all, (which doesn't seem like that much of a loss to lose THEM).

Bubba613
March 13, 2011, 01:08 PM
You don't like it? Don't go there.
Pretty simple.

ColtPythonElite
March 13, 2011, 01:49 PM
What Bubba said...

BassHunter
March 13, 2011, 01:52 PM
What part of IL?

B yond
March 13, 2011, 03:29 PM
Guns are one of those topics where a lot of people who know a little think they know it all...nobody actually does. There's also a lot of opinion and subjectivity involved in firearms topics.

I can't stand some of the BS I hear in gun shops, and I've heard it in most of the ones around here. I hear a lot at the range too.

I avoid the gun shops with questionable ethics and poor safety measures. You'll never get away from the know-it-alls though, that's just the nature of the beast.

ShroomFish
March 13, 2011, 03:45 PM
About every gun shop where I live has lazy employees, not to mention grouchy and sexist.. There is only one that I will deal with anymore and they treat you like family as soon as you walk though the door:)

The one shop AKA the "Sexist Shop" in my book, I had went in there one day with my 62 year old grandmother whom wanted a reliable semi-auto hand gun that she could keep on her nightstand (I live with her but I works nights, and all my handguns suck(ed))... We asked to see a Glock in 40 S&W (recoil does not bother this woman lol) and he was very hesitant and then let her see it, with-in 30 seconds RIPPED it out of her hands and gave her a lecture on Trigger Discipline (Her finger never touched the trigger....).. Last time she ever went there.... A month later I stopped by to check a set of rims the owner of the shop had for sale, and ended up looking at 2 pistols and 3 AR's with no problem what so ever...

50 cal
March 13, 2011, 03:50 PM
I'm in south cental illinois. This sounds like the same crap I have to deal with. Usually,I just save my money for Knob Creek.

alsaqr
March 13, 2011, 03:53 PM
Lawton, OK is the third largest city in the state. Lawton does not have one gun shop. There is a plethora of rip off pawnshops with FFLs. Duncan, OK is 35 miles away and they have one gun shop. The guys prices are sky high and i won't buy from him.

My guns are ordered through a pawnshop in another town.

SwampWolf
March 13, 2011, 03:58 PM
Another plus for what Bubba advised. I'd add that, when it comes to transactions being conducted beween the shop and their customers, minding your own business can save you a lot of unnecessary angst.

THE DARK KNIGHT
March 13, 2011, 04:01 PM
Normally, markets operate on supply/demand.

It seems that gun markets typically operate on BS/demand.

Also, to those saying "don't go there" - that advice doesn't work very well for someone like the OP with nowhere else to go.

Sam1911
March 13, 2011, 04:08 PM
My personal take is the same at a gun shop as any other retail establishment. If you see something you really don't like, speak to a manager or the owner (not the counter flunky) and tell them professionally and politely what you saw and what you feel was wrong with it. Don't push a confrontation. Don't make the manager take sides in the presence of his employee. Just state your case and observe his/her reaction. If the manager is receptive and acknowledge your concern, great. If not, you can explain (again, politely and calmly) how serious you feel the problem was, and even tell them you cannot continue to patronize the business if that's really how you feel.

Then, follow up with a letter to the owner. Don't threaten ("Im going to tell everyone I know never to go to your shop and report you to Eddie Eagle, the BBB, and Ted Nugent, and call your mother, and your minister, and ...") as that's going to antagonize him/her. Just explain the facts and what you personally will do about it.

If you care enough to want things to change, follow through. You might be surprised at the results. Telling a shop owner that you really like his place, and are a regular customer, and that you really want to keep spending your money with him ... but there's this one pretty serious problem... -- that will strike a chord with most folks. They might not realize there was a problem. They might not realize how their help is representing them. They might have never understood the issue themselves. And they don't want to lose business.

SharpsDressedMan
March 13, 2011, 04:18 PM
By the way, it takes about $200-$300 for the FFL, a background check, compliance with local zonning and vending ordinances, and possibly a few other hoops and you can start your own gun store business. Not that hard. If things are that bad, you may need a new gunstore in your neighborhood, whether you or someone else works up the moxy to go for the license.

dcdub
March 13, 2011, 04:38 PM
I make it to my local range usually once a week, maybe every 2 weeks, at all different times. Sometimes on the weekend in the afternoon, sometimes midweek in the morning hours, sometimes in the evening, you get my point. That said, I have ever only seen the owner there ONCE in the past year+ that I've been going. If there was an issue there, he most likely would never notice. So do what Sam1911 said, sit down with him and let him know your concerns. If he shrugs it off don't give him your business, and let him know about it.

Or... You could always apply for a job there and try to turn things around yourself

csbassplayer2003
March 13, 2011, 04:43 PM
Not all of us can plan for multi hour treks to buy guns. The other problem is while obviously ordering is a good way to save money, you dont get to pre view it at all. I support the mom and pop shop as much as I can (they had the cheapest price on a set of grips even over midway) but it does me no good when im going on a suprise range trip with friends and wally world is out of .45 ammo and this store is closed sunday/monday and closes by 4 on saturday.

Other problem is the owner. Hes part of the problem, his attitude is attrocious. I asked out of curiosity what kind of SKS he had hanging on the back wall (being a fellow SKS owner) and got a dirty look and a "im not selling it unless you buy the other 3 guns in the collection". That wasnt my question.... I also got him on the phone one day asking how much for a sights install and what the turn around time was. Rude rude rude. Sigh. He screwed up thing is that it isnt ONE employee, so far every person Ive delt with has been this way. Its very much a "we know were the only game in town" mentality.

Gouranga
March 13, 2011, 05:12 PM
Short answer suck it up or walk away.

Long answer: You are not going to change the owners way of doing things. We have a few nearby stores here. 1, fairly priced, mediocre staff who you should NEVER ask for advice. the second, has a range, great staff, great knowledge, great selection,horrible prices. The third 40 min drive, great staff, great prices, will have a range in march, 4th and 5th well are Bass pro and Gander. There are a couple more i have not been to yet.

Each has strengths, each weaknesses. I still go to all because each fits a specific niche for me and I just ignore or tolerate the downsides for the purposes of being there.

buck460XVR
March 13, 2011, 05:31 PM
You don't like it? Don't go there.
Pretty simple.

yep....don't get no simpler.

You are lucky....you at least have two options close to home. I live in a town of 10,000 that has no gun shop other than the local Wally-World. The only other option we have is a small bait shop that has no firearms, very limited hunting supplies and a limited selection of over priced ammo. The other option I have is a 45 minute ride in any of three directions to get to a legitimate shop that has a good selection of firearms, ammo, reloading components and hunting supplies. I don't buy much factory ammo any more, but I always make sure I have enough or extra reloading supplies to get me by in case of that sudden, spur of the moment range day. Especially if it's something the local Wal-mart doesn't carry. If you local shop is that high priced on their ammo and other stock, it would only make sense to me for you to buy extra cheaply when you can, other than rely on them at the last moment. Continuing to patronize them because they are the only one's in town, only perpetuates the problem.....not only for you, but other locals as well.




Example 3.

Putting customers in danger.

My buddy was there one afternoon looking at Glocks. Their prices were somewhat competitive. He overheard a younger lady asking about 9mm defense ammo. What did the clerk hand her? Remington FMJ ammo. Why? "because it has less recoil". I don't even want to speculate on the implications of this, but needless to say, this directly puts her in danger. My friend at that point walked out and vowed never to come back.


Sorry, but to say the shop undeniably put her at risk for selling her FMJ ammo is grasping at straws. Unlike the hype most ammo manufacturers want you to believe, especially in 9mm, accuracy is more important than bullet type.......everytime. If the young lady is less prone to anticipate recoil and can fire follow up shots quicker and more accurately than with big bucks defense ammo, I think the clerk may have saved her life. If it's winter in Illinois and the perp is wearing a heavy wool coat, it may be the increased penetration from the FMJs that put him down. Ammo choice for SD is very subjective and everyone needs to use what they have confidence in and are most accurate with. I know you dislike this place and are frustrated, but to say their choice of ammo for another shooter directly puts her in danger is not fact, but a very biased opinion.

There are many places that have pizzed me off enough times that I no longer go back. This seems to be the case for you and this shop. I suggest you and your friends avoid this place until either the attitude or the owner changes.

CZguy
March 13, 2011, 06:21 PM
Each has strengths, each weaknesses. I still go to all because each fits a specific niche for me and I just ignore or tolerate the downsides for the purposes of being there.

This sums it up well for me.

We all have different personalities, and as I go through life I hear all kids of advice that I don't agree with. I just don't feel obligated to set people straight. To each his own.

SwampWolf
March 13, 2011, 06:53 PM
but to say their choice of ammo for another shooter directly puts her in danger is not fact, but a very biased opinion.


I agree completely. Add to the equation that, not only is hardball ammunition cheaper to practice with (something the "younger lady" should be doing a lot of) and probably recoils less than some of the "premium" self-defense offerings (again, something the new shooter will benefit from, at least initially), nothing is more reliable in most semi-auto pistols than FMJ bullets. And extreme reliability is on the same level as accuracy when it comes to the prerequisites desired when using a pistol for self-defense.

And, yes, I acknowledge the argument that any pistol being relied on for self-defense should be compatible with bullet profiles commonly employed for effective "stoppage" outcomes but hardball ammunition should work reliably in any pistol that works at all.

Ohio Gun Guy
March 13, 2011, 07:17 PM
my .02.....

I've been around just long enough to hold on to some of my experience over certain advice I get from others. I have no doubt that in their experience the ammo, pistol, rifle, etc, etc. is the best choice, but there are opinions and experiences that influence those decisions.

Vyacheslav
March 13, 2011, 07:37 PM
i shop at gun stores because i enjoy looking at all the merchandise instead of just ordering it online, i draw the line when i lose the enjoyment of going to the gun store because of the behavior of employees.

BlkHawk73
March 13, 2011, 07:43 PM
The shop closest to me is maybe 8 miles away. Got lied to once maybe 13 years or so ago and have gone in just once since. All over a lie that netted him $25 more than what I was advertised (transfer fee). The arrogance of this owner was the final straw. Then again, if one isn't one of the counter crowd that hangs out there and chats high-dollar O/U's they're a number. I'll go elsewhere and gladly pay more than deal with this liar again.

hey_poolboy
March 13, 2011, 08:11 PM
Just drive up to Pekin gun. No range, but LOTS of guns, and generally pretty friendly. They are VERY busy, so sometimes the staff gets a little short, but I usually give them the benefit of the doubt. Dealing with the public all day is a pain.

sturmruger
March 13, 2011, 08:52 PM
It is very simple start buying online. I had a gun store like that down in Iowa and finally got sick of their BS. I buy most everyone online or wait for a good gun show to come around.

For online sales check out CDNN or IMpact Guns.

NW

gamestalker
March 13, 2011, 08:56 PM
It must be a gun shop thing, because I regularly experience high minded arrogant help, that just seem to know a lot more than the customer's walking in the door. Don't get me wrong, a well informed clerk is a good thing in any retail setting, but the clerk who is trying to lift their own self esteem by trying make everyone else appear stupid, is just plain anoying.
My Son has spent several years refusing to do business with a gun shop I've been with for some 30 yrs.. He finally let his grudge go about a month ago, and got a great deal on a new handgun. I've learned to just let it go in one ear, and out the other, it's the nature of the business, and hobby for that matter.
If you go in there knowing what you are wanting, and focus 100% of your attention on that, you'll be less effected or distracted by the arrogant clerks. Just remember, you are repsonsible for your own level of happieness and satisfaction. As soon as you let some yahoo effect your mood by nothing more than words, they have won, and you've just made their day! Killing with kindness, always works for me.

crossrhodes
March 13, 2011, 09:21 PM
Yep. Had the same problem here too. Also most clerks don't know squat except for what they read on Internet forums, only interested in making a sale. I cured the problem and opened my own home business and do special orders and repairs in a converted garage. But not everyone can do that. I would take SAM1911's advice. Just remember, you get better results if you have the gift of gab and the ability to to someone to go to hell and have them look forward to doing it.

Caliper_RWVA
March 13, 2011, 09:42 PM
Gunshop threads like this always make me glad that I live fairly close to Williams Gunsight. Yes, that Williams. They run a really great gunshop and shooting range in addition to the gunsmith stuff. Good prices, great customer service and knowledgeable salespeople.

Ala Dan
March 13, 2011, 09:57 PM
Simmons Sporting Goods
2001-2nd Ave North
Bessemer, AL 35020
PX: (205) 425-4720 or (205) 426-0490
Clay & Peter Simmons = co-owners

Friendly and knowledgeable employees, taking care of business one
customer at a time. No sale is too large, or too small for us to handle~!
Out of town orders accepted, and welcomed~! Serving fisherman and
hunters since 1945~! :cool:

Located 16 miles SSW of "The Magic City" [Birmingham, Alabama];
with a sales tax rate of 9%~! ;) :) :D

csbassplayer2003
March 13, 2011, 09:59 PM
Two problems with online. Unless you have experience with the model beforehand, thats a lot of money you are forking out over an unknown. To handle said unknown, requires a store. Gunshows are hit and miss. A lot of the shows I've been to have inflated pricing (I understand making a living, but come on...) and limited selection. You can't order a gun directly over the internet without having an FFL transfer. Transfers cost money, and again, unless you know the model already, you are guessing. Not a good policy.

As for the "FMJ is ok crowd" I call bollocks. This isn't FMJ out of a rifle in a military setting meant to act as a force multiplier. This isn't military grade FMJ. This was Remington UMC FMJ. TARGET AMMO. This person was obviously not a "gun person". If I had to guess, shooting target ammo at a badguy while better than NOTHING is NOT the way to go. This person is probably going to be panicked, scared, and high on adrenaline. Punching clean holes in and out unless they are LUCKY and hit vitals or some sort of sleeper crack shot, isn't going to cut it, especially with a 9mm. Recoil or not.

I'm curious, how many of you use FMJ target ammo in your HD handguns? I'm pretty sure I know the answer to that.

General Geoff
March 13, 2011, 10:14 PM
As for the "FMJ is ok crowd" I call bollocks. This isn't FMJ out of a rifle in a military setting meant to act as a force multiplier. This isn't military grade FMJ. This was Remington UMC FMJ. TARGET AMMO. This person was obviously not a "gun person". If I had to guess, shooting target ammo at a badguy while better than NOTHING is NOT the way to go. This person is probably going to be panicked, scared, and high on adrenaline. Punching clean holes in and out unless they are LUCKY and hit vitals or some sort of sleeper crack shot, isn't going to cut it, especially with a 9mm. Recoil or not.
1. handguns are exactly that: Force multipliers.
2. Military grade in terms of ammo usually means lowest bidder.
3. Target ammo? Is an assailant not a target?
4. JHP defense ammo does not possess magical properties that somehow make it the only viable choice for carry ammo. Yes, they expand. Are they marginally better at putting a slightly larger hole in the target? Sure. Does that mean they're the only ammo a responsible person should use in their carry gun? No.
5. Countless more people have died from 9mm ball ammo than premium JHP. It's not a pellet gun.

A lot can be said for practicing the way you fight, and using the same ammo you practice with has many benefits, including guaranteed feed reliability and known recoil.


I'm curious, how many of you use FMJ target ammo in your HD handguns? I'm pretty sure I know the answer to that.
Until I'm confident of feeding reliability with a particular type of expanding ammunition, I would not hesitate to stoke a home defense pistol with FMJ.

JTHunter
March 13, 2011, 11:51 PM
csbassplayer2003 - you wouldn't by chance be referring to a shop in Belleville on North Illinois, would you (wink - wink)? When you mentioned RK having just opened its gunshop, I suspected as much. RK's prices aren't quite as good as WallyWorld, but they beat "C.S." and even "R & J's" in O'Fallon.

CZguy
March 14, 2011, 12:07 AM
General Geoff,

You beat me to it with post #30. Well said.

Dulvarian
March 14, 2011, 01:44 AM
To address the issue of FMJ for home defense/self defense. At home, I load the top four with the 'anti-penetration rounds'. There are four other people in the house. Under that goes +P JHP. The second mag is all +P JHP. Not at home, the second mag is in, and the extra mag is 4 +P JHP, followed by the rest FMJ.

I would feel perfectly fine carrying nothing but FMJ all the time. It's that old 'over penetration' concern. Heavy clothing often turns those fancy Hydrashocks or JHP into wound channels that look just like FMJ. (That's a guess on the would channel, but there are numerous reports of JHP not expanding for a variety of reasons.

But as to the young lady practicing with FMJ ammo, and having very little experience with increased recoil with SD ammo that she never/rarely practices with due to cost concerns... There isn't anything wrong with FMJ. It isn't the best tool for all jobs, but it is a sufficient tool to get the job done.

Also, from everything I have ever read, many encounters end with the presentation of the weapon or at the first shot being fired.

She went to the LGS, is looking to buy a handgun for SD. That, along with practice, will has a lot more to do with her ability to defend herself than before. And, as was stated earlier, FMJ is pretty much the most reliable ammo to feed any semi-automatic pistol I know of. She's off to a good start.

If you were truly upset and concerned, you could have made small talk with her about taking a class or asking whether she was planning to carry. It wouldn't have really stepped on anyone's toes. I carefully offer questions that an obvious new shooter should be asking while they are looking if the guy behind the counter is just pushing for a sale. I do the same thing at the hardware store. Carefully and tactfully asking a question is nothing more than simple human interaction.

I've made honest recommendations from handgun selection to power tool selection. Yeah, it takes a bit of my time. But I know all the times I didn't have someone offer some advice and learned the hard way that I didn't know as much as I thought. I also have no problem asking for advice from store employees (or directions, though I navigate quite well). Sometimes people surprise you with the true wealth of knowledge they are willing to share to help you. And if you have done some homework and know what questions to ask, you can determine if the person answering you knows what they are actually talking about. I have been given some fine advice, and some terrible advice. In both cases, I thank them for their time and make my own decision.

Several times, I have waited for the customer to step away and then engaged them in small talk. Usually, if they are unsure, I tell them to do some research, find out some more facts if they aren't comfortable making a decision.

Supporting new shooters is something that a lot of people take lightly. Friendly support and honest questions can go a lot farther to keep them interested than a quick sale with the wrong setup and no direction.

That being said, firearms, for some reason, are about the most over-opinionated and wrong-facted topics that can be found. No one on the planet can know enough to answer every question possible about firearms. And many of us have misconceptions, even among experienced shooters (who can sometimes lean to opinion over fact on their favorite gun related topic). If I offer advice, I make it clear it is my opinion and where it comes from, and then direct them to a source for more information. They can do with it as they please, or tell me to shove off. I get a lot more thank you's than I do go away's.

And even after all of that, should you hear someone tell someone else something completely false and even deadly, the cases where your legal obligation to step into a conversation would be hard to prove in a court of law. It is only a moral obligation and completely up to you. YMMV.

csbassplayer2003
March 14, 2011, 02:17 AM
@JT. Yep. I don't know what CS refers to, but you got all the others correct. I dunno about RK though, so far I haven't seen anything to write home about. The selection is small, and the best .45 ammo Ive seen is 20 bucks a box so far. Well see though.

Yes handguns are force multipliers, but I wasn't referring to it in that sense. I was referring to the military concept of "a wounded soldier takes 2 more to carry off the field." 2nd, target ammo is hardly defense worthy unless it is a last resort, it is usually the cheapest, lowest quality stuff you can get, why bet your life on cheap? 3rd, yes FMJ/ ball ammo has killed more people, but that is a bit of an easy thing to say when you can't shoot hollow points in warfare and I'd wager that more shots are fired in a war than domestically in self defense (provided you follow the Hague convention). And again it is easy to speak in platitudes "a presentation of a gun can deter a threat" Really? Ya don't say! But how many criminals take women seriously when they are hell bent on doing harm? Ive read several instances where the BG was told to stop and he more or less said "you don't have the balls to stop me". If the threat doesn't care, you'd better be shooting the nastiest stuff you can get your hands on, because short of incapacitation, such fiends care little for human life. A grenade launcher is too kind for such people.

788Ham
March 14, 2011, 02:19 AM
Deleted

General Geoff
March 14, 2011, 03:52 AM
Yes handguns are force multipliers, but I wasn't referring to it in that sense. I was referring to the military concept of "a wounded soldier takes 2 more to carry off the field." 2nd, target ammo is hardly defense worthy unless it is a last resort, it is usually the cheapest, lowest quality stuff you can get, why bet your life on cheap?
Cheap does not equal unreliable. There's nothing wrong with using what you can afford to practice with. Over many thousands of rounds I've put through centerfire pistols, I've never once had a "cheap practice" round fail to fire. I had a few failures to extract with Wolf ammo a few years ago, but that's the benefit of testing ammo before relying on it: You know what to expect. And I wouldn't use Wolf ammo for carry.

Using FMJ isn't about betting your life on cheap. It's about betting your life on what you know and practice with.

FYI, the U.S. Military doesn't use expanding ammo because it's too expensive, not because it's banned by the Hague Convention (the U.S. never signed) or because of the "wounded soldiers take more resources than dead soldiers" theory.

General Geoff
March 14, 2011, 04:07 AM
Furthermore: There are plenty of folks who carry FMJ simply because it's more consistent in terms of penetration than expanding ammo. They'd rather the bullet go through the body entirely than stop short of a vital area. Consider that a 9mm FMJ round after going through 12+ inches of tissue and at least two layers of clothing is going to cause, at best, a flesh wound. Overpenetration is not an overriding issue. And there's nothing to guarantee that an expanding bullet won't also overpenetrate. Knowing what's behind your target is paramount no matter what kind of ammo you're using.


See also, the FBI's notes on 10mm (http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf). From the pdf:

The fear of over-penetration is a misconception, which was created back when law enforcement was trying to overcome misinformed public resistance to the use of hollowpoint ammunition. In the process, we began to believe it ourselves. First, our lawyers are unaware of any sucessful legal action resulting from the injury of a bystander due to a round over-penetrating the subject. We are aware of numerous incidents of Agents/officers being killed because their round did not penetrate enough (Grogan and Dove, for example). Further, if you examine shooting statistics you will see that officers hit the subject somewhere around 20-30% of the time. Thus 70-80% of shots fired never hit their intended target, and nobody ever worries about them – only the ones that might “over-penetrate” the bad guy. Third, as our testing shows, even the most frangible bullets designed specifically for shallow penetration will plug up when striking wood or wallboard and then penetrate like full metal jacket ammunition. We are aware of successful legal actions where an innocent party has been struck by a shot passing through a wall, but as we have proven, ALL of them will do that.

makarovnik
March 14, 2011, 06:32 AM
It's always nice to rate these businesses online. I say poo to keeping my mouth shut; I tried it and it can't be done.

csbassplayer2003
March 14, 2011, 10:21 AM
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I have on many occasions seen WWB, UMC, etc... anything "target" grade fail to feed, fail to eject, stovepipes etc... If it is going to happen, it will happen with the cheap ammo.That is the reason it is cheap to begin with. That in no way means premium ammo is infalible, but id rather have a 1% chance than a 5% chance when my life is on the line.

LibShooter
March 14, 2011, 10:23 AM
Put me down as a guy who uses FMJ in his self defense and home defense semi-auto firearms. It works every time. Hollow points don't work every time in my old autos. If I ever REALLY need my SD weapon, small real holes in the bad would be better than larger theoretical holes. YMMV. The revolver does get JHP.

As to the original question, like Bubba says, if you don't like the place, don't go. Following that advice you won't hear the clerks misinform other customers and hand out "dangerous" advice. Your blood pressure will improve.

I don't feel too sorry for folks who believe everything salespeople tell them. Anybody who can spell "Google" can get a second or a thousand other opinions. Caveat emptor.

If you really must say something, follow Sam's advice and discreetly speak to the manager.

I say trade with the mom and pop store and consider the little extra money spent an investment in your community. And I'll bet if you really want to buy a gun on a particular day, they might stay open a bit late to make the sale.

merlinfire
March 14, 2011, 10:31 AM
It seems that gun markets typically operate on BS/demand.

Haha, that's good. It's funny because its true.

I'm in SW ohio, and blessed to have at least a dozen LGS within an hour driving distance, not counting walmarts and bass pro. Of those dozen, I have basically 3 that are run by people who are generally no-BS, and have the best prices too. They tend to tolerate my stupid questions, and don't lie to me.

If you're wondering, the best in this area are Shooter's Supply in Loveland, Gun Runners in Monroe, and Thompson's Guns in Middletown.

Kingofthehill
March 14, 2011, 08:57 PM
You know what I did at a place that sounds very similar to this?

I got a job there. I shared a lot of info with new buyers and even a lot of the staff who didn't have a whole lot of first hand experience and I took them shooting to get them more familiar with product.

It worked out well for everyone involved. Im not saying i know it all but i LOVE soaking up information and take several training classes and have quite a collection. I always suggest doing something about it before you just turn your back.

JOe

Sentry71
March 14, 2011, 08:58 PM
@JT. Yep. I don't know what CS refers to, but you got all the others correct. I dunno about RK though, so far I haven't seen anything to write home about. The selection is small, and the best .45 ammo Ive seen is 20 bucks a box so far. Well see though.

CS would be Curt Smith Outdoors, on Church Street in downtown Belleville. I personally purchased my first gun (Winchester SXP 12ga) there, and found the staff to be pretty friendly, as well as prices below MSRP, though I don't have a lot of experience to compare with other stores in the area.

When I dip into the handgun market, I'll start there as well, if for no other reason than they have treated me well.

SwampWolf
March 14, 2011, 09:39 PM
I'm curious, how many of you use FMJ target ammo in your HD handguns? I'm pretty sure I know the answer to that.

Do you? I think you might be surprised as to the answer to your question.

SwampWolf
March 14, 2011, 09:54 PM
I have on many occasions seen WWB, UMC, etc... anything "target" grade fail to feed, fail to eject, stovepipes etc... If it is going to happen, it will happen with the cheap ammo.

I have to disagree with this premise, at least based on my experience. If your pistol is malfunctioning with "WWB, UMC, etc.", it is likely that your pistol has problems, not the ammunition. If your pistol is malfunctioning with "cheap" hardball ammunition, it's time for your gunsmith to take a look at the pistol. I may or may not get the best accuracy from the "white box" stuff but, after literally thousands of rounds expended down-range, I have never seen an instance where the malfunctioning of a pistol could be attributed to inexpensive FMJ ammunition. "Cheap", imo, has absolutely nothing to do with reliability.

SwampWolf
March 14, 2011, 10:01 PM
Gunshop threads like this always make me glad that I live fairly close to Williams Gunsight.

So true. Decades ago, I was stationed at the long defunct Wurtsmith SAC USAF base in Oscoda, Michigan and several times have had the pleasure of patronizing the Williams Gunsight company in Davidson. Even though I have not lived in Michigan since the late sixties, I still find myself back in Davidson whenever possible. Very nice people indeed run this shop.

Smaug
March 14, 2011, 11:28 PM
Spend a bit more to support the good place where they don't lie.

Where I live, there are two local shops. One is snotty and through-the-roof expensive. The other one is still kind of snotty, but generally friendly, and has decent deals on used guns. (but high prices on new guns)

So I bought one used gun from them, a beautiful S&W 29 w/ 8-3/8" barrel.

I bought two guns from Bass Pro, because they're friendly and helpful. I bought two guns from GAT Guns; same reasons.

Bottom line: vote with your wallet, and let your friends know.

mr.trooper
March 14, 2011, 11:50 PM
I have the same problem.

The only gun shop in our tiny town of 400 people is in the basement of a grumpy cantankerous old man who keeps no stock. I don't buy from him.

There is another one in the next town 'up', about 15 miles away... and the guy is completely unethical - the ONE time I almost purchased a gun from him, I left to get money out of the bank, and came back to find the pistol I wanted had jumped in price by $200 in the 1/2 hour I had been gone. :rolleyes:

There was another one in the town 20 miles over that had a range attached. It was a hole in the wall. The owner of that one had sky high prices, AND beat the hell out of his own merchandise - new PSL's with the dog ears bent over (because he drops them), new Sig stainless 232's that had been scratched to hell (because he dangles a pistol from each finger when putting them out or away, and they all slide against each other), and the one that takes the cake; a new unfired Remington 700 that he let RUST, AND had the bolt stolen out of it at a gun show - STILL on his wall a year later at full MSRP. :rolleyes:

There is another shop in a town about 30 miles away, and it is wonderful - large open floor plan, high ceiling, spotless housekeeping, taxidermy animals, professional uniformed staff, and huge selection of guns without looking 'cluttered'... their prices aren't that great either... but I buy from them exclusively. It pays to deal with a professional business, instead of the other clowns who 'play FFL'.

leadcounsel
March 15, 2011, 10:23 AM
Well, I'd say go elsewhere. Go to Mom and Pops or take a road trip and order your stuff online.

I have a similar experience. I was (key word, WAS) a regular patron of a local gun shop. I dropped several hundred dollars there in just a couple years on both in stock guns and online gun orders/FFL transfers.

I put up with some of their arrogance and curtness and some rudeness. The typical "I know more than you" attitude.

However, when I deployed I sent my girlfriend there for her to buy her first handgun for her home defense. They robbed her, charging her probably 10% more than I would have expected for the gun.

Then I called and said I wanted to order a few guns while I was deployed and asked if they'd hold them for me. The answer was "No - we no longer do FFL transfers for online guns."

I'm puzzled why a gun shop would not take FFL transfer cash, like $25 per transaction. That leads to a larger discussion -

The point is I am NO LONGER a customer of theirs. They don't want to conduct normal business as an FFL, I found someone else who is more than willing and they'll get my business.

RONSERESURPLUS
March 15, 2011, 10:46 AM
Hello all, RON here

I find myself in Full agreement with Sam1911! I would say that all shops have Strengths and weakness! Ive had a few bad expereinces i shops and a talk with the management either fixed it, or did not? If not, then my butt was never in that door again? You give the manager a chance to fix the problem, and it's on him to do it, or shop elsewhere? If they fix the Prob, good to go and rock on and see what happens, if not, you shop eleswhere and In my case, I take the time to drop that manager a Note, tell him what was wrong again, that you won't be shopping trhere again and again why and thats on him, enough folks do that and they will either change or go out of Business or Continue on and in each case your not harmed by it?

As far as ammo selecion FMJ, HP and such, I find it a persoanl option, not one that a Shop will well advise me, unles he's familuar with shat I do, how I do it, with what handgun and in what circumstances? I use FMJ in some of my handguns others not? I have been involved in Officer related shootings and I know what works for me! One of my shootings was witha 1 9MM (BHP Off Duty weapon) and the shooting was ruled justifable and the Perp will no longer be bothering anyne, if you catch my drift! That day, it was 115 GN FMJ and my center of mass shots did the job and he crumpled like a tin can and was out of the fight early on! Was witness to anther shooting of a fellow who had robbed a bank and took 4 well placed shots from a 40 cal (HP) to the chest and fough on, till was taken down with a Blast of a 12GA (00 Buchshot)! We even checked him for body armor as he acted like he was never even hit, despite 4 well placed center of mass shots once we cuffed him and checked him for injuries? No one has all the anwsers and life is not a Fixed sport or event! Use what ya know, how ya know it, when ya know it and be much better off than what Gun shop commando's or well meaning folks pass on to you as "THE FACT?

JTHunter
March 19, 2011, 01:15 AM
Sorry Sentry but the CS I was referring to is NOT Curt Smith's. Their prices are not very good either but they aren't a "discount store". I was talking about the shop on North Illinois with the gun range in the building. I just didn't want to say their name as some people might like the place. Some of the clerks in there seem to think we should be glad for them to help us when they get around to it.
And they aren't that good on ammo prices either - they just have a broader selection.

greginVa
March 19, 2011, 01:42 AM
Sounds like opportunity is knocking. Get your FFL and go to work.

fredthecat
March 19, 2011, 03:31 AM
By the way, it takes about $200-$300 for the FFL, a background check, compliance with local zonning and vending ordinances, and possibly a few other hoops and you can start your own gun store business. Not that hard. If things are that bad, you may need a new gunstore in your neighborhood, whether you or someone else works up the moxy to go for the license.

True, but buying guns from your own gunstore is frowned upon by the ATF, so you're still gonna have to buy your own guns elsewhere.

Killing with kindness, always works for me.

Does Midway stock some +p kindness? :p

Hobie
March 19, 2011, 01:52 PM
I find the comments about gun store clerks very interesting because I've been on both sides of the counter at the same store.

Just like the military, it is the commander (the owner) who sets the tone. An involved owner, who prioritizes service will hire folks who feel the same way and encourage that sort of behavior. Where one gets arrogant, condescending behavior from the clerks one can expect the same from the owner. I've been such places, once.

I like where I work because when I didn't work there I got service. Being polite IS customer service. Doing your best to get the customer what they want (even if they come in not knowing exactly what they want) IS customer service. I got such service and I'm allowed to take all the time I want to give such service. That service has paid off for the owner and he knows it.

However, every once in a while a customer comes in who expects that they should get something for nothing at all or even more. On top of that, some are rude, arrogant and condescending to the staff. While most will try to put up with such shenanigans, sometimes such a customer will push the clerk too far. I think that as a customer, one still has a certain self-interest in being polite.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
March 19, 2011, 02:27 PM
We have a gun store that is run by a mom and pop operation, quite literally, the guy and his wife.
:)=guy; :neener:=wife

Whenever I have called them about anything it seems, whenever the woman would answer, her remark was always exactly the same remark:

"WE USED TO HAVE THOSE, WE DON'T CARRY THOSE ANY MORE!":confused:

Almost saying it in such an "uppity-way" so as to say "any gun store that still carries (name the item here) is running in the dark ages!":rolleyes:

I'm talking about things like:
Federal Bench Rest Primers (all sizes)
Uncle Mikes Holsters
Solid Brass Cleaning Rods
Leupold Single-Piece Scope Mounts
Leupold Rings
Quality Spotting Scopes or Quality Binoculars
Range Estimators (Finders)
Leather Military-Type Slings that are the two-piece with a number of holes for adjustment around the upper portion of forward supporting arm
MTM Case Guard Ammo Boxes
Many RCBS Reloading Supplies
Leather Holsters

And, the list goes on-and-on as I only put down things I remember calling them about and having her uppity-attitude shine right through. The person who I aways went there with noticed the EXACT same response, and it even happens when they happen to just be out of something you need in particular, like a certain Hornady bullet that you have been loading for 20 years! She then tries to sell something else, telling me that they are "all the same!" For my tack-driver rifle, I am sorry, but they are NOT all the same, in fact I bet the point of impact is even different! Sure, I am going to spend two weeks working up another accurate tack-driving load just because SHE DOESN'T CARRY THAT ANY MORE!:fire:

Heck, I will just order it all from Midway if I have to and not deal with her arrogant attitude.:mad: :neener:

Friendly, Don't Fire!
March 19, 2011, 02:35 PM
Actually, the same holds true to the very local Radio Shack!

The manager always pulls that one when they are all out of what it was you were looking for! It could be a 1/4" mono phone plug (for speakers). The guy gives you the impression that, since he does not have what I am looking for, it is obviously something that I do NOT NEED!

Excuse me?
Please EXPLAIN why it is that "the big box store" sells them if they are simply not necessary? :rolleyes:

the_skunk
March 19, 2011, 03:46 PM
Supply and demand

As the internet progresses and people can rate gun stores, the store owners are becoming more respondsible.

NMGonzo
March 19, 2011, 09:24 PM
I am so happy with my gun stores that I even started a thread about them.

Sentry71
March 19, 2011, 11:18 PM
Sorry Sentry but the CS I was referring to is NOT Curt Smith's. Their prices are not very good either but they aren't a "discount store". I was talking about the shop on North Illinois with the gun range in the building. I just didn't want to say their name as some people might like the place.

Thanks for the clarification. :)

I personally won't deal with the North Illinois store at all.

Bubbles
March 19, 2011, 11:20 PM
buying guns from your own gunstore is frowned upon by the ATF
No it's not. The ATF won't issue an FFL solely so that someone can enhance his own collection by purchasing guns from distributors at wholesale prices. OTOH there's no problem if an FFL transfers one to himself from time to time as long as the transfer is done lawfully (4473, etc).

Lex Luthier
March 20, 2011, 01:38 AM
Agreed. As a recovering customer service staff member, I can relate. Too many "customers" are under the false impression that a store is their living room, and that the dude at the counter is destined to be the graced beneficiary of their opinions and time wasting. It seems that I am always saving someone from a needless chat in an attempt to do some actual revenue generating business. Courtesy plays both ways and being cheap gets you cheap.

mgkdrgn
March 21, 2011, 09:29 PM
Gunshop Ethics .... isn't that a liittle bit like "Rules in a knifefight?"

(you sure you used enough dynamite there Butch?) :evil:

impartial
March 22, 2011, 05:15 PM
I absolutely hate going into gun shops. Just the other day I called and asked if one of my local shops had a saiga .308 in stock. He said no I don't have one right here I would have to order one.

To which I replied oh thats fine, about how much would that run me?

he said "Well I'm not going to just give you a price over the phone."

to which I replied
"Oh well I see now thats just a freakin brilliant business model you got there now isn't it? I tell you what I'm going to call across the street and see if they have one." which I did and they did indeed have one which I did Indeed purchase and I told them why they got the business and the jack ass across the street did not.

They laughed and said yeah we hear stuff like that all the time about him.

So you see its that beautiful little thing called the free market system. We have the freedom to pick and choose where we buy and what we buy. That is one of the major advantages of being an American.

No matter where I am or what I am buying, if I feel like I am not being treated with respect and gratitude. I will simply just go somewhere else. I am not afraid to tell the merchant exactly how I feel. Sometimes they will make good for you and keep your business, sometimes they don't care and I go across the street.

God Bless America. Not only do I have the freedom to choose who I buy from but they merchant has the freedom to choose who they sell to. Its a beautiful thing.

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