Does a gun take 600 rounds to break in?


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the_skunk
March 13, 2011, 03:17 PM
I bought a new Sig P232 and when I called the Sig service center about jamming, I was told that 600 rounds will 'Break the gun in'.

I don't get it? If the tollerances are correct, why any break in at all. Maybe the springs need a break-in period?

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bargainshop@coxinet.net
March 13, 2011, 03:33 PM
When i got my first sig i thought the mag all the way in , then i discoverd by pushing up on the bottom of the mag it went click no more problems.
after market mag can be a real promlem.

SlamFire1
March 13, 2011, 03:41 PM
Break in is a philosophical/psychological phenomena. Just how many rounds do you need to go down range before you trust the thing?

As for your jamming, could be your ammo, could be your magazines, don’t know what you are using on either. Don’t know what type of jam you are having. Your post is sort of like “I am having car problems, what should I do?”. There are a million and one car problems to pick from so you are not going to get a specific answer.

If you are using factory magazines and using factory ammunition then the Customer Service representative you talked to is stupider than bag of hammers. No factory new gun should be jamming, whatever your jams are, with factory magazines and quality ammunition.

Old military surplus, reloads, and AMERC ammunition are not valid ammunition types to evaluate reliability.

buck460XVR
March 13, 2011, 05:50 PM
I bought a new Sig P232 and when I called the Sig service center about jamming, I was told that 600 rounds will 'Break the gun in'.

I don't get it? If the tollerances are correct, why any break in at all. Maybe the springs need a break-in period?


About three years ago, a good friend of mine asked for suggestions for a HD handgun. I took him to the range with several of my revolvers and my 5''Colt Government. He took a shining to the 1911 and within a month bought one of his own. It was not a Colt, but a well known $1200 clone. First time out, it jammed on every mag. I rode with him the 40 miles to take it back to the dealer he bought it from. First thing the dealer asked was whether or not he had put 500 rounds thru it. Said the factory would not accept it back til then. Three years later he still hasn't put 500 rounds thru it cause it frustrates him so every time he takes it to the range. I sometimes wonder if this is the reason some manufacturers require this, knowing full well most owners will trade it off before or never will fire 500 rounds thru them. I suggested to my friend he take it to a good smith to have it looked at knowing that it would be cheaper for a good smith to make it reliable than to put $175-$200 worth of ammo thru it, and find out it still don't work.

gym
March 13, 2011, 06:24 PM
The dealer is blowing smoke you know where. All firing 300 or whatever the number is, is polishing the internals, and seating all of the parts. On a pistol over $1000.00, that should already be done by the manufacturer before releasing the firearm.
If the gun doesn't fire, you have evrery right to ask for either a refund or a new gun. I don't know what state you live in, but most states like mine give you 3 days to return anything for any reason. I know this because I owned health club.
They don't even have to give you a reason, it's the law. you never listen to salesmen on issues like this. You go right to the state.
Also if you post a complaint on the better business bureau's website in the locale, he is in. You will be surprised how quicklly his attitude will change. I have used it myself twice, with a tv and on a plumber who re -did my kitchen, and refused to come back to instal an allen screw that held on the faucet. Basically he told me to f off, after 8 grand in plumbing work.
Don't allow people to bully you, if I wanted to spend another few hundred dollars before being able to fire this gun, I would not have Purchased it, that's your stance. I hate bullies, when I got through with brandsmart, I became best friends with the VP. She fired a whole bunch of people and told me they spent 4 thousand dollars repairing a 1,500 dollar tv. People can be very stubborn and stupid. I ended up with a Gift certificate for a new TV after it broke a second time with 8 trips and 6 months without my TV.
Don't let people push you around, explain your intentions and offer him the oppertunity to make amends. Let him know that once it starts, it's on. And you will put your experience with him all over the internet, facebook etc, you have weapons you aren't using in this fight.
As a few guys mentioned the firing process can be set aside by using the proper polishing compound on the rails and the feed ramp, also the firing mechanism where the top round hits the slide from the mag. I would be happy to help you any time if you PM me, after hundreds of pistols, I can pretty much tell you where to look and how far yo go. That is all that firing thr rounds is doing, just removing high spots burs etc.

EddieNFL
March 13, 2011, 07:10 PM
Only Kimbers (well, 500 rounds is there magic number).

ColtPythonElite
March 13, 2011, 07:16 PM
I've acquired several new pistols for both personal and professional use and never had one that needed hundreds of rounds ran thru it to "break it in" in order to make it reliable. If I ever get a new gun that is a jam-o-matic, the manufacturer better make it right on their dime. If not, that will be the last one of that brand for me and I'll spend plenty of time telling others of my experience with said brand.

trex1310
March 13, 2011, 08:10 PM
I bought a new Sig P229 Equinox that would not fire a complete magazine without jamming. I got the "pistol needs to be fired x rounds to break it in" story. My reply was why can you buy a $500 Beretta or Springfield XD that doesn't jam at all from the get go. If it needs to be fired 500 rounds, let Sig fire (and buy) 500 rounds of ammo before they sell the (8&^% gun to the public. I did the only logical thing, I traded it in and will never buy another one. When my life depends on something, I want it to work out of the box,no excuses.

JerryM
March 13, 2011, 08:26 PM
If I were considering a gun, and was told it would take 500 rounds to break it in I would not buy it.
Some maintain that you should use at least 200 rounds or your carry ammo to be sure the gun is reliable with that load.

If you consider the cost of ammo, and especially premium ammo you could be talking about several hundred dollars just to make sure the gun works. When I have purchased a new gun, if it malfunctions within the fi9rst 100 rounds of range ammo I send it back.

I have not noticed Glocks require that sort of break in. The 1911 seems to be the most likely to need such a break in, but that is not acceptable to me. I send it back with the factory paying the tab for shipping.

Regards,
Jerrry

ridgerunner1965
March 13, 2011, 08:34 PM
honestly, ive had guns like that and they went down the road.if a gun aint working from the factory it gets fixed or goes down the road.these are high dollar guns yu guys are talkin about.id expect them to operate correctly.if i put 500 rnds thru a gun and it still wasnt workin it would be down the road. i can buy 200$ norinco 9mm that will function every time

rfwobbly
March 13, 2011, 08:42 PM
Both my all-metal 9's ran better after a couple of hundred rounds. That's all I know.

armoredman
March 13, 2011, 08:47 PM
When I got my CZ P-01, I took it straight to the range, with the factory goop still on it. It worked perfectly, and ever since then, too. I can't remember anyone bringing back a SiG for "break in" issues when I worked at a gunshop 10 years ago, it would have been un heard of.

the_skunk
March 13, 2011, 09:30 PM
Break in is a philosophical/psychological phenomena. Just how many rounds do you need to go down range before you trust the thing?


Ain't that the truth

As for your jamming, could be your ammo, could be your magazines, don’t know what you are using on either.


The gun is brand new, it jammed out of the box, and the ammo was Federal ball nose. I sent the gun back, and the said everything was 'Okie Dokie' .... it jammed again, and now the claim is 'limp wristing'.

the_skunk
March 13, 2011, 09:34 PM
I sometimes wonder if this is the reason some manufacturers require this, knowing full well most owners will trade it off before or never will fire 500 rounds thru them.

My exact thoughts. You take a Colt 45 and it gets expensive for ammo.

EddieNFL
March 13, 2011, 09:35 PM
The 1911 seems to be the most likely to need such a break in, but that is not acceptable to me.

All firearms "break-in" as they are fired. Kimber is the only 1911 manufacturer I am aware of that suggests a break-in to "fix" problems.

the_skunk
March 13, 2011, 10:06 PM
When I got my CZ P-01, I took it straight to the range, with the factory goop still on it. It worked perfectly

I spent $700 on the Sig P232, and was told this is what SWAT and police use as a back-up. The basic design is a 1929 Walther PPK, then Makarov, CZ-83, Bersa, etc. All told there have been 10 million of this exact design.

What really happened was today's Sig Sauer pistols are made in a CNC machining center with 100 tools. The breech face of this gun was probably breaking 'Tool # 64' and the Sig factory decided to let the extractor just flip the empty shell out.

You can pick up a CZ-83 surplus for $220, and it's 3 times the gun that the Sig is. My jams are a double feed and the Sig P232 has no slide lock, now unjamming that is a three handed job.

Joe Demko
March 13, 2011, 10:16 PM
When I get a new autopistol, I tear it down, lube it, and then hand cycle it a few hundred times. I then tear it down again, clean it, and re-lube. Never had any break-in issues.

Larry E
March 13, 2011, 10:39 PM
I've got two Kimbers a 5" and 4 ", and they both worked fine out of the box, with my handloads since I only shoot them. The short model became balky after about 500 or 600 rounds due to a sacked recoil spring (common with short barrel 1911's I've heard). Replaced the recoil spring with one from IMSI, and it works fine now, but only likes 230 gr loads. Fine with me.

Got a Ruger P345 that had a problem, got sent back and repaired, shipping paid both ways, and that was after I told them that it had been fired with handloads. There was something wrong in the machining of the firing pin tunnel in the slide I think, but they didn't exactly say.

A service weapon should not need 500 or 600 rounds to "break in".

Balrog
March 14, 2011, 01:20 AM
There is always a lot of confusion at THR regarding gun break-in.

First, gun break in is not the same as function testing to make sure your gun is reliable enough to carry. Everyone should shoot a new gun thoroughly to make sure it works properly. This applies to new and used guns.

Function testing and gun break in may overlap, however.

The purpose though of gun break in is to smooth out the operation of a gun. Break in will not cause a gun that is a total jam-o-matic to become functional. If the gun is choking every round, or every few rounds, when new, then you have a problem with the gun that will likely require more than simply shooting it a few hundred rounds. Break in will smooth up gun function, but won't fix fundamental errors with parts or assembly. Metal surfaces mate, slick up, and the gun runs smoother after it is broken in. Certain brands seem to require this more than others, but that would be another thread.

Then we come to the concept of "break in" as defined by some gun manufacturers, most prominently Kimber. If you get a new Kimber, and it jams every few rounds, call Kimber's Customer Service Department (an oxymoron by the way), and they will tell you to shoot the gun 500 times (which at today's ammo prices will burn up about $200 bucks of ammo). They will try to convince you that will fix the problem, but of course it likely won't.

Weevil
March 14, 2011, 01:59 AM
About the only problem I've ever seen get better by shooting is failure to go fully into battery.

I've had a few, mostly 1911 types, that would hang up just short of going into battery especially after getting warmed up. Shooting them and keeping them lubed up always cured this.

Failure to feed or eject problems never seem to cure themselves no matter how many rounds you shoot. Something is out of spec or incorrect and just shooting it isn't going to change that.


I got a Glock 26 yesterday morning and I put a little over 250 rounds through it yesterday and today. No problems at all straight from the box.

That's what I want to see out of a gun I'm going to use for carry purposes, boringly reliable.


It's tough to have confidence in a gun that chokes and stumbles right out of the gate.

FC
March 14, 2011, 02:58 AM
My jams are a double feed and the Sig P232 has no slide lock, now unjamming that is a three handed job.

Double feeding is a magazine problem, try a new magazine.

AK103K
March 14, 2011, 11:12 AM
The gun is brand new, it jammed out of the box, and the ammo was Federal ball nose. I sent the gun back, and the said everything was 'Okie Dokie' .... it jammed again, and now the claim is 'limp wristing'.
Have you let other people shoot the gun to make sure its not you?

What really happened was today's Sig Sauer pistols are made in a CNC machining center with 100 tools. The breech face of this gun was probably breaking 'Tool # 64' and the Sig factory decided to let the extractor just flip the empty shell out.
What? :rolleyes:

My jams are a double feed and the Sig P232 has no slide lock, now unjamming that is a three handed job.
Actually, it does. Its internal and you can reach in the ejection port with your pinky while holding the slide open, and lock it if needed, even with a double feed.

Have you tried another mag? Are they still coming with two? If so, does it do it with both mags?

Cop Bob
March 14, 2011, 11:20 AM
When setting up new build match 1911's I put them together fairly tight, also used the same method to fix snug factory slide to frame rail fits.

Disassemble the gun, small paintbrush with a dab of fine valve grinding compound inside the frame rails, and work it back n forth, till it begins to act right. Clean the compound off the rails and reassemble. You may have to do this several times, a little bit at a time. even the fine compounds will cut pretty quick if the alloys are soft, and they vary from Mfg to Mfg.

Only takes a few minutes and it will duplicate the actions of a few hundred rounds in a hurry.. careful not to OVERDO it..

A side note, for duty weapons, where sub MOA is not the goal, dependability is, Mine all rattle a little bit when you shake em, its the sound of dependability.. and with the right barrel bushing and rear lug lock up, they will still drill pretty tight. and they will feed empties.

RimfireChris
March 14, 2011, 11:37 AM
I've heard both sides over the years, and from what I've experienced, it depends on the gun. I've noticed that blowback pistols and some .22 rifles do seem to run better after a couple hundred rounds, but even still they weren't having major problems to begin with.

bruzer
March 14, 2011, 12:08 PM
I don't have the answer but this makes me think. I do believe a gun should work flawlessly from day one. But a gun is also like a tool or piece of machinery. A car's engine requires a "break in" period. My adjustable wrench was not very smooth when new, now works perfectly. There are many other examples but we do look at guns much differently because our life may depend on them.
Good luck and if you need help "breaking in" your gun, I'll help. I'll even bring my own ammo.
Mike

Jeff F
March 14, 2011, 12:22 PM
Well, I have a No4 Mk2 Enfield that I got new in the wrap and unfired. It's just passing 450 rounds downrange and is just now settling down and getting very accurate.

I have a SS Colt Series 80 government model that was accurate out of the box but needed a hundred round or so of ball ran through it before it was 100% reliable.

Hal Carter
March 14, 2011, 12:35 PM
I've been told to break guns by Kimber, HK, and SW, but never Sig. I used to own a 232, and it was 100% reliable out of the box, although very tight. Send it back. I think Sig's quality is slipping in the last couple of years.

B yond
March 14, 2011, 01:07 PM
I had a ruger auto that came from the factory with a sharp burr where the feed ramp meets the chamber. Cases would catch there causing jams. 600 rounds may have smoothed it down enough, but a dremel was a lot faster and cheaper.

the_skunk
March 14, 2011, 01:17 PM
Disassemble the gun, small paintbrush with a dab of fine valve grinding compound inside the frame rails, and work it back n forth, till it begins to act right. Clean the compound off the rails and reassemble.

My problem is the breech face doesn't have a recess to hold the spent cartridge until it hits the ejector. The earlier Sigs, Makarovs, CZ=82s, PPKs are identical designs, and the all have this recess.

Apparently they are depending on the extractor to flip the shell out.


http://www.hallowellco.com/Steyr-375-bolt-face.jpg

the_skunk
March 14, 2011, 01:25 PM
Thanks Mr Jeff

I always do a through testing on any carry gun .... Most problems are in the magazines. My Browning HP had a weak spring on the slide lock, but it was an easy fix.

This Sig P232 is a major malfunction problem. I am near the $1000 mark on this gun, and to think I could have had a Kimber Solo, or a Rorhbaugh, instead of this Sig Saur toy.

Sky
March 14, 2011, 01:43 PM
I have always broke the rifle or pistol down for inspection and cleaning as most of us do. I have never gone out of my way to do anything special other than check the weapon and lube with Breakfree CLP. I have never had a problem with a so called break in period. Have had a problem with wrong ammo and chamber for an match grade AR. Changed ammo fixed problem. Mags can and sometime do make a difference with a certain firearm but ( knock on wood ) I have not had the joy of those type problems. I think a pistol or rifle should shoot out of the box...will it get smoother and more reliable after a few hundred rounds; hope so but I do not expect it to be a jam-o-matic unless the mag, ammo, or gun is something I do not want to own.

AK103K
March 14, 2011, 03:58 PM
My problem is the breech face doesn't have a recess to hold the spent cartridge until it hits the ejector.
Im not sure I understand what youre trying to say here. The P232 doesnt have a button ejector like the one in your pic. The ejector is on the slide stop, or at least it is on my P230's.

What does the rifle bolt face have to do with this?

Hal Carter
March 15, 2011, 11:10 AM
Even though not what the op asked, there are so many small 9mm on the market now a 9 would be a better cc choice, IMO. Still there is something wrong with that gun. Sig might be resting on their reputation, and some of the highest quality handguns I've owned over the last 20 or so years have been sigs. About 3 years ago I got 1 of the sig 1911's soon after they came out. I had many jamming issues with it. Tried everything, including Wilson mags. Still malfs. My ffl guy complained to sig and they finally reembursed the full amount I paid minus taxes.

These days "breaking in" a gun can cost a good deal of money. Then if it still does not work, you are just out that much more. You would think companies would be glad to make their product good from the factory but if not at least want you to send it back.

Bad publicity on a forum like this goes a long way towards a companies reputation.

Fleet
March 15, 2011, 11:24 AM
"But a gun is also like a tool or piece of machinery. A car's engine requires a "break in" period."

The problem with this line of thought is that if your car's engine didn't do what it was supposed to do first time, every time, you'd take it back and expect the dealer to make it right...the first time, without question.

LKB3rd
March 15, 2011, 11:24 AM
I rode with him the 40 miles to take it back to the dealer he bought it from. First thing the dealer asked was whether or not he had put 500 rounds thru it. Said the factory would not accept it back til then. Three years later he still hasn't put 500 rounds thru it cause it frustrates him so every time he takes it to the range. I sometimes wonder if this is the reason some manufacturers require this, knowing full well most owners will trade it off before or never will fire 500 rou
He should go in there, and tell them he just hit 700 rounds and it is still doing it. They have no way of knowing how many rounds it has through it except from what he tells them. If it is truly what it needs, let them shoot more rounds through it on their dime.

the_skunk
March 15, 2011, 01:48 PM
Im not sure I understand what youre trying to say here. The P232 doesnt have a button ejector like the one in your pic. The ejector is on the slide stop, or at least it is on my P230's.

What does the rifle bolt face have to do with this?

The sig 232 ejector is an extention of the slide stop, and the bolt picture just shows a typical recess. This breech area is universal to all guns

the_skunk
March 15, 2011, 01:54 PM
Yes sir Mr Carter

Bad publicity on a gun is a real 'no no'. You need to be one dis-satified customer.

I have spent up to 200 rounds tuning in a pistol. My Kimber only liked a certain ammo, and mags were crap .. but the basic gun was well built.

This Sig Sauer p232 has a major problem in the slide. I have written the executives at Sig that I want a refund.

robmkivseries70
March 15, 2011, 02:35 PM
I too have seen a lot of posts on this subject. In the past I would have said 'NO' , no break in period needed. I have since had some more modern manufactured pistols that were so well fitted (tight) that I do believe they needed some break in rounds. Any thoughts on the newer manufacturing processes yielding tighter pistols and then the "need to be broken in"?
Thanks,
Rob

AK103K
March 15, 2011, 04:15 PM
This breech area is universal to all guns
Umm, no, its not.

Most handgun breach faces look nothing like your rifle bolt pic, and more like the P230/232's.


You still havent ever said if someone else has shot the gun to eliminate you as the problem. As unlikely as it seems, sometimes it is user error, and you do need to confirm this.


I understand what youre going through, I recently had a lot of problems with a P238, and a lot of fiddling and about 700 rounds, things were never resolved. I traded it off and moved on.

That alone is a lot better for the blood pressure. :)

I will say youre doing yourself a disservice to assume that all SIG's are bad since your one gun was. Ive owned a number of them over the years, and all but the P238 were reliable and functional guns. Interestingly enough, my P238 worked like my last Kimber. Must be a "genetics" thing. :)

kludge
March 15, 2011, 04:54 PM
I always laugh at the people who buy a brand new "insert expensive brand of gun here" (Kimber is the biggest offender from the posts I've read), have problems, and then the MFR says... you need to shoot 500 rounds (or whatever) for the gun to break in.

So 500 rounds is what... $20/box of .45ACP, so that's $200 for ammo. And people are OK with this???

To stay competitive on price manufacturers have eliminated all the hand fitting that they can, some of them don't even touch the tooling marks that inhibit normal function, which in a mass production facility might cost what, $100 extra at retail?

Or the customer sends it back to the factory for $300 worth of "fitting" charges.

What would happen if a SA XD-40 out of the box didn't run though 500 flawless round right out of the box?

The gun snobs would say what a POS it is, that it can't be relied upon for carry, etc.

People sure do go through a bunch of nonsense to have a pretty gun.

raz-0
March 15, 2011, 06:16 PM
Should a gun need to break in to function? No.

Will a gun break in from the initial factory fit? Yes, even if it worked without function.

Will "breaking in" a gun make it work if it was malfunctioning? In my experience, unless the problem is a tight slide to frame fit, no. In the case of a tight slide to frame fit, you are probably better off cycling it by hand to break it in than burning up ammo.

Will "breaking in" a gun make it shoot better? In my experience, only bolt action rifles with less than stellar finishing to the rifling and pistols with overly tight slide to frame fit. In both cases, what youa re really getting is smoother more consistent behavior of the whole bullet/gun system when they interact during a shot being fired.

That's my experience anyway. I once had a pistol that took 750 rounds till it ran right, but that was a matter of troubleshooting and shooting ammo to determine it actually worked reliably. In reality, I could have shot thousands of rounds if I hadn't found what was the real cause, and the only reason I went that far is at the time a case of 9mm cost only slightly more than overnight shipping to have the manufacturer look at it.

gym
March 15, 2011, 06:52 PM
Get a glock you can load it right out of the box and it will shoot just as well as if it had a thousand rounds through it, . but if you are uninformed about guns in general, you should buy one that works out of the box like M&P, GLOCK,Ruger Sr9, Keltek-pf9, p11,lcp,lcr any bluddy revolver of decent heritage, or an h&k ,"p7", if you like classics, no guarantees other than a new taurus 44 mag, ruger 22, colt defender , an old colt 38 in detective special or lawman a s&w model 60 any Smith police auto,or cs series, a colt 45 series 70, most 80's a pocket light pony ,mustang. Or a taurus revolver in most any caliber along with a s&w model 19 ,29, s&w 60 chiefs special "many others". exactlly what was the question. what are you looking for? There are hundreds if not thousands of great guns out there. Why do you have to shoot all those bulletts again. Kimber is a pretty gun although he new ones are about 50% Crap. That's what happens when a comapny gets popular and can't keep up their QC standards. Sell the kimber and buy a gun that you can bet your life on. I would get an agent or a defender before one of those overpriced onaments. No direspect to you, they are very pretty. But I don't want the guy that shot me giving it to his mom for her birthday. Lovelly pistol son, thaks mom only the best for you, got a good deal on it. some fellow didn't have any use for it anymore. He just got finished breaking it in for you mom.
And yes I am kidding,

goon
March 15, 2011, 07:20 PM
I've never had a gun "break in" over time and just start working right if it malfunctioned straight from the box.
I do like to shoot several hundred problem free rounds for my own peace of mind before trusting a gun, but factory mandated break-in periods (at least for reliability) are BS.

230therapy
March 15, 2011, 07:33 PM
It's a 1911 thing that's bled over into general gun culture (or maybe it came from several guns).

http://10-8performance.blogspot.com/2010_05_01_archive.html

http://www.10-8performance.com/Reliability_Round_Counts.html

"It just needs to be broken in."
No it doesn't. Most of the time, this really just means that the gun was not built correctly and you are completing some of the final fitting by firing. Break in does not fix all the issues, so don't hope for the break in fairy to make an improperly set up weapon suddenly become right. Overly tight slide/frame/barrel fit, improper chamber finish, rough breech faces, etc. are better addressed on the bench than wasting precious time and expensive ammunition at the range. The only really legit break in that I typically see is related to guns getting tightened up after they get refinished with a coating that adds surface thickness, such as the spray and bake paint finishes. Usually the refinished gun will work ok, but needs to be kept very clean and well lubed during this initial wear in period. This break in can also be addressed on the bench instead.

John Wayne
March 15, 2011, 08:58 PM
It's been my experience that if a gun doesn't work reliably out of the box, it won't do so after any magic number of rounds have been fired through it, either. I've had that experience with Kel-Tec and a few others.

A reliable gun may very well smooth out, however, and improve with use. Reliability does not increase, at least in my experience.

I have heard that Kahr pistols exhibit a few functional problems within the first xxx # of rounds and are reliable thereafter, but I have not fired one enough to know.

At any rate I would not trust any number higher than 100 rounds to break in a gun right out of the box...any more than that and something was wrong when it left the factory. The fact that it started working just means that you got lucky. YMMV.

the_skunk
March 15, 2011, 09:49 PM
The break-in period

That is total nonsense in today's CNC technology. I run 100 shells through a gun to check springs, magazines, and what ammo works best.

Today's normal buyer doesn't shoot 600 rounds in a year. A first class gun needs no break-in.

AK103K
March 15, 2011, 10:10 PM
Today's normal buyer doesn't shoot 600 rounds in a year.
I dont know what "normal" is, but I usually shoot 3-500 a week. :)


Hmmm.......

Drail
March 15, 2011, 10:28 PM
The most incredible thing about this whole policy "it needs to be broken in" has to be the huge number of people that believe it. And the car engine analogy is absurd.

TheCracker
March 15, 2011, 10:34 PM
I think there could be a some break in but that sounds like crap.

Today I raised the round count to 950 rounds out of my Ruger sr9c that I bought early February. 300 factory and the rest were my reloads if hollow points, fmj's and even 250 lead round nose.

ZERO MALFUNCTIONS, accurate and a pleasure to shoot!!!!

The Lone Haranguer
March 15, 2011, 11:13 PM
Under no circumstances should any gun need 600 rounds to "break it in." Twelve boxes of .380 ammo would buy many guns. :rolleyes: Ideally it should "run" out of the box, but a couple of sporadic stoppages in the first ~100 rounds can be forgiven, if it straightens out. In my experience, if a gun is suffering consistent stoppages in the first 100 rounds, no amount of shooting will make it any better.

bensdad
March 15, 2011, 11:16 PM
Break-in shmake-in. Kimber spends eleventy-bajillion dollars a year for full outside covers on how many gun rags? If they spent a fraction of that money on their finished product, they wouldn't get called out every time this subject comes up.

A division of Kimber fans will be along shortly to lecture us about the miracle of "tight tollerances." :rolleyes:

jbr
March 15, 2011, 11:31 PM
I'm going to shoot the rounds either way - but if i'm clearing jams every mag or 2 i'm sending it on a vacation to the factory. One failure to extract in a hundred rounds could easily be ammo but consistant failure of any kind buys it a trip.

Bob N. Weave
March 16, 2011, 12:03 AM
The Mfrs. claim that their gun requires an initial "break in period" of 600 rnds. before it will function reliably is BS. ANY competently designed and manufactured firearm should function reliably right "out of the box"!! "I CARRY A GUN BECAUSE COPS ARE TOO HEAVY"

Daemon688
March 16, 2011, 12:40 AM
Break in for any gun is stupid. If it isn't reliable out of the box then why the heck would I depend on it for my life? Bought a P239, functioned flawless out of the box and not one single FTF or FTE in well over 5000 rounds and eats everything I've thrown at it.

Sky
March 16, 2011, 10:39 AM
Now having read and studied many of the replies, I will say this. Some gas systems (rifles) need a few rounds through them to seal. Notice I said a few which to me means less than 100 to get everything smoothed out and sealed. Just depends on how the gas system is set up and attached to begin with.

I have never kept or owned a pistol that gave me problems. 50 years ago stuff worked when you bought it or you got a refund. Now it's like buyer beware or it's the buyer's fault. Maybe a little harsh but I agree if less was spent on hype and more on QC manythings would be better.

Guy de Loimbard
March 16, 2011, 04:31 PM
A gun that needs break-in is either covering for bad manufacturing or bad design. A new car that backfires and misfires isn't in need of a break-in period, it is in need of repair.

the_skunk
March 16, 2011, 06:47 PM
The gun manufactuers are run by Madison Ave types that spend more on advertising than on quality control.

Most guns are based off the 1911, Browning HP, or the PPK. Sigs new P238s are just a colt mustang.

Only the Seecamps and Rohrbaughs are doing anything original.

SharpsDressedMan
March 16, 2011, 10:14 PM
A machine needs to run for awhile to make sure it DOES run properly. I think its good that a manufacturer gives a consumer some idea of when they can begin to consider their item "broken in". 600 is not a lot of rounds, and it is probably NOT a good idea to ASSUME the gun will run just fine with 100--200 rounds, etc.

Weevil
March 16, 2011, 10:31 PM
Yeah 600 rounds is a good benchmark for trusting a weapon for carry purposes.


However I'd sure feel a lot better carrying a gun that's just ran flawlessly through those 600 rounds than one that has been a jam-o-matic for those 600 rounds.


It's probably not a good idea to think that once it hits that magic 600 number it's suddenly gonna turn into a reliable pistol you can trust your life to.

the_skunk
March 17, 2011, 12:12 AM
Break-in means tollerances are off and the two surfaces must wear away. Talk about absudity.

The only reason you shoot a gun is to check magazines, ammo, function, etc. But, if a gun is a piece of junk, than running a million rounds thru it won't matter.

My Kimber had 2 out of 3 mags bad - but the gun is basically reliable, My browning had a bad spring, but the basic gun was first class. On the other hand, the Sig p232 is third rate machining, and quality control is a joke. I would have to spend $800 to fix a $500 new gun.

TexasBill
March 17, 2011, 01:30 AM
The only pistol I have bought in recent years that had a problem was a SIG Mosquito. When I installed the correct spring and began using CCI MiniMags, as the factory recommended, the problem went away.

I will put at least 3-400 rounds though a new gun before it goes into rotation, but that's me getting used to the gun. I have an FNP-9 and a Beretta PX4 Storm and they were both reliable right out of the box. I also have a Walther PK380; the only time it had any problems I was using lousy ammo because it was all I could get during the great .380 famine. With better ammo, it performs like a champ.

It still blows me away that anyone would buy a Kimber or any M1911 clone that didn't work right out of the box. Sorry, but IMHO, $1,000 is a lot to pay for a paperweight.

SharpsDressedMan
March 17, 2011, 03:21 PM
I don't live in a place where all guns, new in the box, work 100% right after they exit the box. Apparently, we have some lucky folks here that can SPOT a 100% reliable, NEW gun, and that is why their's never needs adjustment. I'm going to let them do MY gunbuying from now on! Perhaps we coud set the bar at a given $$$ amount so that THAT will insure a perfect gun. :rolleyes:

the_skunk
March 17, 2011, 05:31 PM
I don't live in a place where all guns, new in the box, work 100% right after they exit the box.


Guns fall into two catagories

Good designs that may need function testing

Bad designs, or bad manufacturing, that ain't never going to work

Sig Sauer is basically a great gun, but quality control is very spotty

Onmilo
March 17, 2011, 05:46 PM
600 rounds to break a gun in!!??
Many guns on the market won't go 600 rounds before they out and out break!!

Weevil
March 17, 2011, 10:39 PM
I don't live in a place where all guns, new in the box, work 100% right after they exit the box. Apparently, we have some lucky folks here that can SPOT a 100% reliable, NEW gun, and that is why their's never needs adjustment. I'm going to let them do MY gunbuying from now on! Perhaps we coud set the bar at a given $$$ amount so that THAT will insure a perfect gun.




No need to do all that...........




.........just get a Glock.


:D

the_skunk
March 17, 2011, 10:52 PM
Everyone loves a glock ... if I can sell my undependable P232, then I am looking hard at a glock

EddieNFL
March 18, 2011, 07:38 PM
Everyone loves a glock ... if I can sell my undependable P232, then I am looking hard at a glock
He certainly does. Lots of others folks have different likes, though.

MarkDozier
March 19, 2011, 06:31 AM
Break in is a philosophical/psychological phenomena my bull chip meter is spinning.
The reason for break periods is to allow the mating surfaces in the gun to smooth each other. An example would be giving my American Classic II 1911 45 acp trigger 500 - 1000 to naturally smooth the tool marks and make the trigger action smoother.

Weevil
March 19, 2011, 01:31 PM
He certainly does. Lots of others folks have different likes, though.



Yeah I'll admit it I just "love" guns that actually work like their supposed to and don't need a break-in period, or an "adjustment" by a smith, or a good cussing at.


Yes sir the best way for a gun to endear itself to me is for it to be trouble free and perform flawlessly everytime I pull the trigger.


Now you may prefer other things like being pretty and stylish, or you maybe like that guy on the Burger King commercials with the tiny little hands that just don't fit right around a Glock grip.

I agree Glocks aren't the prettiest, don't have the best ergonomics, or the cleanest crispest trigger, but they do work right out the box. At least for me anyway, yeah I see the usual suspects on the internet putting them down but I've ownd three a G27, a G20, and now a G26 and all of them have worked perfectly straight from the box, and never gave me a problem of any sort.


Now you may have other priorities or things you "like" but I want a gun that's stone cold reliable right out of the gate.


Break-ins should be for smoothing out surfaces not hoping and praying that the darn thing will eventually work right.

david58
March 19, 2011, 01:38 PM
What I like about the break-in discussion is that some actually believe it is appropriate!

If I pay >$1K for a pistol, it should run out of the box if properly lubed. Tolerances can easily be held with today's machining equipment, shucks, it could be held by a good machinist many years ago.

Too tight doesn't mean "tight tolerances" (as brand K claims to be the reason break-in is required), it means poorly toleranced (read: poorly engineered). I buy precision machinery where I work, and "break-in" just doesn't happen, or the manufacturer gets to come fix it. To be told that I need to spend 20% of my original cost to break in a piece of equipment would be the death knell for that supplier.

If one pays for a premium gun, one should not be expected to run 500 rounds to get the gun to work. How Kimber arrived at this philosophy, I don't know, and how they keep selling under this condition is beyond me.

EddieNFL
March 19, 2011, 01:56 PM
Yeah I'll admit it I just "love" guns that actually work like their supposed to and don't need a break-in period, or an "adjustment" by a smith, or a good cussing at.


Yes sir the best way for a gun to endear itself to me is for it to be trouble free and perform flawlessly everytime I pull the trigger.


Now you may prefer other things like being pretty and stylish, or you maybe like that guy on the Burger King commercials with the tiny little hands that just don't fit right around a Glock grip.

I agree Glocks aren't the prettiest, don't have the best ergonomics, or the cleanest crispest trigger, but they do work right out the box. At least for me anyway, yeah I see the usual suspects on the internet putting them down but I've ownd three a G27, a G20, and now a G26 and all of them have worked perfectly straight from the box, and never gave me a problem of any sort.


Now you may have other priorities or things you "like" but I want a gun that's stone cold reliable right out of the gate.


Break-ins should be for smoothing out surfaces not hoping and praying that the darn thing will eventually work right.


Are you always so sensitive? Post loaded statements and someone will call you on it.

In which post did I rag on Glocks? When my wife decided she needed a handgun, I bought her a Glock. Why, you ask? Reputation and personal experience. It's a simple design that novice shooters can easily master.

Nope, Glocks aren't my cup of tea. I carry a stone cold reliable right out of the gate .45...plus the ergonomics fit me and the trigger is superb...and it's good looking.

Nice try with the put downs, though.

the_skunk
March 19, 2011, 03:26 PM
my bull chip meter is spinning.
The reason for break periods is to allow the mating surfaces in the gun to smooth each other. An example would be giving my American Classic II 1911 45 acp trigger 500 - 1000 to naturally smooth the tool marks and make the trigger action smoother.



If a pin is going into a .250 hole, than the pin must be ..249. Slide wear is from bad machining.

If I needed to make a pin from a casting..... I do one pass at .250, and then a super fine cut to .249. When a machine cuts, the milling tool can wear, so a 2nd cut, or a tolerence check is necessary.

the_skunk
March 19, 2011, 03:33 PM
If one pays for a premium gun, one should not be expected to run 500 rounds to get the gun to work. How Kimber arrived at this philosophy, I don't know, and how they keep selling under this condition is beyond me.


Sig told me the P232 was legendary reliable .... now if they said 'You need to shoot 500 rds to break it in' before the sale, I wouldn't spent the money.

A pistol is a fairly simple thing .... build it right, and tell the owner the best ammo. Kimber now issues a ammo preference with it's owners manual.

Weevil
March 19, 2011, 05:36 PM
Are you always so sensitive? Post loaded statements and someone will call you on it.

In which post did I rag on Glocks? When my wife decided she needed a handgun, I bought her a Glock. Why, you ask? Reputation and personal experience. It's a simple design that novice shooters can easily master.

Nope, Glocks aren't my cup of tea. I carry a stone cold reliable right out of the gate .45...plus the ergonomics fit me and the trigger is superb...and it's good looking.

Nice try with the put downs, though.



And you're calling me sensitive???;)



I never meant you specifically I was actually refering to Glock-haters in general.


Sorry if you took it personally.


It's kinda hard to know just exactly what you meant from just two sentences.

CJS06
March 19, 2011, 05:45 PM
If a gun needs 600 rounds to break in I don't want anything to do with it, I don't care what name is on it. Every gun I have ever owned has worked right away, whether a 1911, Glock, M&P,AR, etc. Everything I own has more than 1k-1.5k rounds through it now other than my newest additions. You wouldn't but any other product that doesn't work when brand new, why settle for it with your guns. :confused:

the_skunk
March 19, 2011, 07:06 PM
You wouldn't but any other product that doesn't work when brand new, why settle for it with your guns.


Most guns are 1930 designs. My Sig p232 was based off a Walther ppk made in 1928 - since then the Makarov, the CZ, the FEG, Bersa Thunder, and countless ahve just copied it.

Just the PPK made 2 million, and the Makarov was 5 million ..... Sigs 232 is the most unreliable in the bunch

AK103K
March 19, 2011, 07:23 PM
My Sig p232 was based off a Walther ppk made in 1928 -
Maybe in very general fashion.

My P230's dont take down like my Walthers. They dont have the same safeties. They dont have the lousy, heavy DA triggers, They handle recoil much better. They dont draw blood every time you shoot them. And unlike my US assembled Walthers, they work reliably.


Sigs 232 is the most unreliable in the bunch
"Your" SIG maybe. Some of us, and probably more like, most of us that do have them, have had a totally different experience than you.

I could cry about how bad my US Walther was, and I had to send it back three times, and they never did get it right. Does that mean all US Walthers are junk? I kind of doubt it. I replaced my Walthers, German and US, with P230's, after I shot my first one. Ive never regretted the choice either.

Since you feel the SIG's are so horrible, maybe you should try the Walthers. That way you have an "original", and not an inferior "copy".

We'll wait for the "B" side. :D

the_skunk
March 20, 2011, 01:09 PM
Your right AK that safeties and such are different..... But the whole group is the general design ... the German makarov is the real dependable one of the bunch

withdrawn34
March 20, 2011, 03:23 PM
Agreed. Things should not require a break-in to become reliable. Break-in happens with pretty much all new machines, but should be reliable from the beginning (although it may get "smoother" as it breaks in).

Imagine a car engine that stalls and stutters occasionally, and fails to start at other times when new. Would that be acceptable? No, of course not.

What about if your brand new fridge stopped working once in a while, causing your prized steaks to spoil, and the manufacturer told you to wait at least several months before calling them again, causing you to lose thousands of dollars in food - not to mention having a hungry family? Unacceptable.

It seems that the more expensive, higher-end pistols tend to need this "break-in" to become so-called reliable. That makes no sense. Cheaper pistols skip a lot of the personal attention to reduce cost, yet unreliability in them, even three or four non-ammo related malfunctions when new, is considered to be quite unacceptable. I don't understand why we should accept such things in a four figure pistol that is almost completely hand-built and fitted. What exactly are they doing with all those labor hours? Plus, with modern computer-aided design and machining, what excuse do they have anymore? They should be able to fit it precisely the first time.

I'd love to get a nice, pretty custom pistol one day, but this sort of stuff always concerns me. I'd hate to have an unreliable pistol that I have to lie to myself to convince it is still a great pistol. I think several 1911 manufacturers, plus the "original" GI 1911 have shown that the 1911 doesn't have to be inherently unreliable. It is this strange obsession with super accuracy that has led to manufacturers to tighten everything up to the point where the darned thing doesn't even work anymore. Even then, it is implemented seemingly unevenly during manufacturing. Does not make sense.

JohnBiltz
March 20, 2011, 05:47 PM
Glock recently suggested firing 200 rounds of heavier ammo through the gen 4 9mms to break them in. It worked the springs. My Kel-Tec sub 2000 needed it also and probably for the same reason. Triggers also seem to benefit from rounds fired through them. I believe in a 200 round break in. Its been in the literature at least since the 70s when I first read it. Its not as prevalent today because I think they make guns better than they used to for the most part.

Ala Dan
March 20, 2011, 05:51 PM
If a firearm takes 600 rounds to break it in; then I DO NOT want it, especially
a handgun~! :eek: ;) :what:

EddieNFL
March 20, 2011, 08:17 PM
It seems that the more expensive, higher-end pistols tend to need this "break-in" to become so-called reliable.

What is your definition of higher-end? What do you mean by "so-called" reliable?

gathert
March 20, 2011, 10:46 PM
Nobody ever needed to break in a shotgun...

the_skunk
March 21, 2011, 12:22 AM
Agreed. Things should not require a break-in to become reliable. Break-in happens with pretty much all new machines, but should be reliable from the beginning .

Break-in is just an excuse. The Sig P232 has a design fault in the 'Breech face'. There is no recess to hold the empty casing during recoil .... so it all depends on the ejector claw to 'flip' the shell out.

I checked the Sig 230, the makarov, CZ-83, PPK, and they all had the shell recess. The deal is when you deal with CNC machine centers there can be a 100 tools .... I imagine the breech tool kept breaking ... which shuts dow the entire line


http://www.hallowellco.com/Steyr-375-bolt-face.jpg

Without this recess a shell flops and never hits the ejector

Ironclad
March 21, 2011, 12:52 AM
Nobody ever needed to break in a shotgun...

I did. My Remington 870 Express had a rough chamber that would stick cheap shell every once and awhile. The more I used it, the less it happened.

AK103K
March 21, 2011, 09:47 AM
Break-in is just an excuse. The Sig P232 has a design fault in the 'Breech face'. There is no recess to hold the empty casing during recoil .... so it all depends on the ejector claw to 'flip' the shell out.

I checked the Sig 230, the makarov, CZ-83, PPK, and they all had the shell recess. The deal is when you deal with CNC machine centers there can be a 100 tools .... I imagine the breech tool kept breaking ... which shuts dow the entire line




Without this recess a shell flops and never hits the ejector
Youre really starting to sound like a broken record now, and posting the same old pic of something else isnt helping make it better. If you would post a pic of "your" actual gun, and its problem and actually answered direct questions instead of evading them, you'd have a little more credibility, which at this point, between here and TFL, as well as a number of others, I think is wearing very thin.

As has already been explained to you, many handguns dont have the recess, and function fine. My P230's with the recess, will not hold the case on the breech face by the extractor alone either, so I think "your" assessment of the problem might be flawed.

And for the $64 question, for the umpteenth unanswered time, have you ever let someone else (who has some experience) shoot your gun, and did they have the same problems?

SSN Vet
March 21, 2011, 11:00 AM
And people are OK with this???

not I....

the_skunk
March 21, 2011, 11:08 AM
Youre really starting to sound like a broken record now, and posting the same old pic of something else isnt helping make it better. , I think is wearing very thin.

Just replying to other posters. If the posts bother you, than block them

AK103K
March 21, 2011, 11:31 AM
You left out the important parts in the quote. :) ;)

If the posts bother you, than block them
I would, but everywhere you go on the web (literally too), there you are, same exact thing, over and over.

Besides, with all the drama, there might be a new pic of another different gun.

gathert
March 21, 2011, 12:46 PM
Ironclad, I tried with the shotgun thing. I use mostly competition shotguns so they are of better quality. Though my 870 always rocks, and I Ieven used it in a national trap shooting competition one time to break 193/200 targets, beating many people with several thousand dollar guns :)

rajb123
March 21, 2011, 05:00 PM
...Bought a new CZ 22 rimfire and the bolt was VERY ruff to cycle out of the box. There were some tool marks around the bolt pieces and action. During the first 100 rounds a couple of rounds of quality Federal ammo would not load.

I have since dry cycled the rifle with some grease several hundred times and the action is a tad better.

With CNC machining, there really is no reason why this should ocurr IMO. Luckily, the gun is not used for home defense or it would be returned.

Ben86
March 21, 2011, 06:29 PM
bought a new Sig P232 and when I called the Sig service center about jamming, I was told that 600 rounds will 'Break the gun in'.

I don't get it? If the tollerances are correct, why any break in at all. Maybe the springs need a break-in period?

600 rounds is a bit excessive. To me 100-200 should break in any reliable gun. It varies according to make and model and sometimes even individual gun.

All "break in" means is that the parts learn to work with each other properly. Opposing surfaces adapt to one another and the springs relax a bit (as they usually come from the factory intentionally heavier than required).

the_skunk
March 22, 2011, 10:07 PM
With CNC machining, there really is no reason why this should ocurr IMO.

The problem with a CNC is the machinist is replaced by a button pusher. And a CNC has 100 tools, so a part is made, and there can be 500 slides, or frames, put out with a tiny defect.

What happens is a milling tool wears out, and a rail that is suppose to be .250 deep, is now .247 deep.

fatcat4620
March 22, 2011, 10:23 PM
Never bought a brand new handgun and never had anything other than primer issues with all four of them. I let someone else deal with the BS and buy the ones I know work for way less and after someone else spent all the money on ammo to find out.

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