Going to London for a week...

...and I'm wondering if you guys have any good ideas about SD if the need arises. I realize there have been a few threads about this over the years, but most seem to pertain to residents, not tourists.

I've got a 180 lumen light that I reckon I could blind and bludgeon an attacker with. I'm really bummed that I can't even carry my pocketknife or pepper spray. The more I read about the laws over there, the less I want to go. I was also considering a tactical pen. I think I would look a little odd walking around with a cane (maybe some of you older gents can pull it off) or a cricket bat. I'm thinking more of something that can be kept in my pocket or messenger bag and not arouse suspicion.

Any ideas? Thanks

You're going to London... carry an umbrella.

Wear a taqiyah and hope they leave you alone?

The law says that you can't carry any item that has the purpose of self defense. So I don't know how a 'tactical pen' might look to the police.

You're going to London... carry an umbrella.
That was my thought as well. The flashlight sounds like a good idea too, especially if it has a strobe setting.

I have one of the Unbreakable Umbrellas (http://www.real-self-defense.com/unbreakable-umbrella.html). (Watch the video as he beats the heck out of a heavy bag, and the umbrella still works.)

http://www.real-self-defense.com/images/unbreakable-umbrella-105_lg.jpg http://www.real-self-defense.com/images/handle5.jpg

Wife got it for me last Xmas.

Not cheap. Best part of $200.

Sturdy little sucker, though.
Of course, if you want to wait until you touch
down, there's always J. Smith & Sons of London. -->
James Smith & Sons Ltd
Hazelwood House
53 New Oxford Street
London
WC1A 1BL

They have an impressive line of brollies, including a selection of gentleman's Solid Stick Umbrellas (http://www.james-smith.co.uk/productcategory.cfm?SectionID=21).
138355 138358 138356 138357

Of course, at over £225.00 (yes, that's Pounds Sterling, not dollars), they are substantially more expensive than the Unbreakable above, and I would imagine they're not actually designed to take that kind of beating.

If you have time to order one, I'd go with the Unbreakable.

I spent a bit of time in London. I found out quick about knives, not so much from just the legal standpoint but also from the the viewpoint of the average bloke. The folks I worked with were horrified by my little CRKT KISS folder. I started carrying my Leatherman tool, which I had an excuse for (worked with an IT department around computers).

The umbrella idea is specifically mentioned as being sanctioned by the authorities in a self defense document I read at the time, I can't seem to find the reference but I will keep looking. The high intensity pocket light seems to be a good idea as well.

Hang out with crowds, maintain situational awareness if you need to take the Tube late at night. Try to learn a little about the neighborhoods before you go.

Cabs- the black cabs are expensive but safe. You might look with a wary eye upon the independent cabs.

You can have a lot of fun in London and come home in one piece, I assure you.

(I had the same question the first time I went to London. A certain individual recommended I find somone to sell me a Russian PSM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSM_pistol :) while I was there or better yet, just refuse to go. Your Mileage May Vary.)

All depends where in London you are going and what sort of activities you are planning.
I routinely carry a SAK but like others have said, it is a multitool and that is the primary purpose of having it, if I am stopped and asked about it.
That umbrella is a good idea, also.

carry your wallet in a shoulder holster ;)

No fixed blades of any length. You can carry a knife IF the blade is less than 3" AND it is folding. However, in a classic case of legislating from the bench, a judge ruled that "folding knife" does not include lock blade folding knives. So an ordinary Swiss Army knife is OK, but a 2.5" lock blade is not.

http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?975-Summary-of-British-Knife-Law

Marbles,been playing since I was a kid officer, keep'em in a sock 'cause ya never know when you can get up a game.
Cheerio
robert

what about a letter opener? A roll of coins too.

dcdub,

Legal isn't the forum for your question since you're asking about what to take and not whether you legally can take a firearm/knife.

If you spend a little time here in NFW you'll see that canes and sticks in their various forms are encouraged, but that some training with them is needed to put them to best defensive use, but that's the same regardless of what you carry. There are non-locking folding knives made just for the UK so you may want to find one of those and keep it well concealed in a pocket.

The other thing you'll see is that researching your destination, identifying the specific high crime areas/times and avoiding them, maintaining awareness and not being hesitant to get yourself out of an uncomfortable situation before it confirms itself to be dangerous is your best course of action.

Our London members point out that London is pretty safe as long as you stick to the better/tourist areas.

The idea of carrying an umbrella is a good one, but not every umbrella is a good defensive weapon. A hickory cane, OTOH is. The problem with any larger stick is that unless you carry it all the time you're constantly fumbling with it and cussing it.

Next size up is a good flashlight. The crenelated cap versions are not needed.

Defensive pens should be as innocent looking as possible. I carry a Timberline LCP in my travels and the authorities in Kuwait have taken 2 of them as I was headed out of their country on the United flight. I learned to quit keeping them clipped to the placket of my shirt and to put them in with other pens and cables and "stuff" in my carryon.

I would take my zebra 701 SS Ink pen and a good Hickory Stock Cane. Plus a Metal Sharpie marker.

http://images.discountofficeitems.com/size/400/55d/ab5/8a7ef83bcbfcf675cc3ee0d0ade4d0d344.jpg


http://www.tacomaworld.com/gallery/data/500/medium/liveJyrW5w.jpg

http://www.duboisdistributors.com/product_images/catalog19848/CANE.jpg

Oh, and BTW, when I was actually living in London, I got used to carrying an umbrella simply as an article of clothing.

Seriously.

Sun shining? That's okay, give it an hour or two.

The weather in England is patterned such that you will never attract attention with an umbrella.

Of course, if you have a nice umbrella, you will not want to lay it down anywhere and turn your back on it. That's how I lost mine. Horn-tipped hardwood handle. Had it rebuilt when I was in Denmark. Been with me for nearly ten years. Laid it down, walked outside, came back. No more brolly.

So, if you do carry one, keep it close. A good bumbershoot is worth coveting.

Dc, you're going to have a great time, and more than weapons, you need to have a really comfy pair of shoes with gell inserts. Lots of walking around, and sights to see.

As far as self defense weapons go, we were there just a year and a half ago, and for the tourist, it's as safe as anywhere else. I left my cutlery home, and just took a Victorinox classic for use as a pen knife in case of cutting open a package or sharpening a pencil. You will need an umbrella, it rained about 3 days out of 5 there. Not real heavy rain, but a constant drizzle with periods of real rain. On a rainy day, the sidewalks of London become a sea of bobbing black umbrella's.

For a flashlight, I carried a AA LED minimag. Plain little light, no fancy crenelated bezel. You want to look innocent, and the bobbies were not born yesterday. They know all about tactical flashlights and tactical pens. The Minimag will ruin somebodys day if used right. I had my old Cross pen clipped in my pocket for standby. The only thing it got used for was writing on post cards to send home.

You have to go to Hyde Park on Sunday morning for Speakers Corner. This is when anyone can bring a soap box and preach, rant, or whatever. It gets amusing. And you can spend three days in the British Museum, and not see it all. The tubes run on time, and is a great way to get around London. Don't bother to rent a car, the traffic is plain nuts.

A good umbrella, sturdy pen, and a minimag flashlight is all you'll need, and you won't really need them, exept for their intended use.

Have a great time!

Carl.

Thanks for that up-beat slant on my capital city Carl, if I'd of said it people might have thought I was biased :)

I've been to England several times, and London for at least 5 weeks over say 3 visits. I also have friends that live there.

I have never read the laws, but anectdotally, self-defense is frowned upon and self defense weapons are an absolute ticket to jail. No knives or anything that we would commonly associate with self defense.

Now you *might* get away with a cricket bat if you are in the appropriate setting (like a park, or something). An umbrella is a good suggestion. As is the cane, walking stick, or flashlight. Keep in mind there are surveillance cameras nearly everywhere in populated areas. And you still may go to jail for awhile.

Your best defense when traveling around the globe is using your brain and situational awareness. Stay out of potentially dangerous or dumb sitautions. Stay with a buddy, don't wander down dark alleys, don't take rides from strangers (there are a lot of off-license cabs at night - only take legit cabs), don't argue with the locals in pubs, etc.

Overall I've never met an unfriendly Brit and never been in a bad situation there, but maintain your bearings and have fun.

Thanks for the tips guys. Sounds like a nice sturdy umbrella is probably my best bet. A few of you have said that a crenelated bezel is not needed, but do you think its a BAD idea because it could be viewed as a weapon. Probably, they're pretty tough over there.
I definitely intend to keep my wits about me, but sometimes the highest level of situational awareness is not enough, and I want to be prepared for that just in case.

By the way, that umbrella is awesome Arfin. I would probably carry it here too if I had one!

do you think its a BAD idea because it could be viewed as a weapon

Yes, and pretty pointless.

Pointless, really? I think it would hurt like a b...ee sting!

the Police here are answerable to no one,will arbitarily decide whether the
coins in your pocket

Carrying any kind of pocket knife in London, under current laws, is just asking to be thrown in jail. The unbrella is the best idea so far, as a heavy cane or walking stick, unless you can prove you need it for mobility, and get you busted if you say it's for defense, or actually use it that way. In any case, don't carry more cash in your pocket that you've budgeted for the day, or more than one credit card in your pocket, and keep your passport, extra cash, ID, and backup credit/ATM cards in a secure moneybelt under your clothes. I got pickpocketed getting on a train when I was over there a couple of years ago by someone brushing against me as I was getting off. He got about 50 Euros in currency and one credit card, but everything else was safe under my pants.

Always carry enough cash with you so a thug won't be too disappointed... I am serious.

Believe me, giving a few quid to an addict is far, far cheaper than hitting him with a weapon in self defense, even if it is a makeshift one. In Europe, you will be treated as the criminal, not as the victim in such cases.

The legal bills will pile up high.

If you get robbed and the robber gets what he wants (enough money for his next dose), then chances are you will walk out unharmed and enjoy the rest of your vacation. Which you won't otherwise.

@GCBurner: Good ideas, particularly about the pickpocket stuff, but once I started carrying a Leatherman, there was really no issue, even with my co-workers there. Note that I carry my wallet in a front pocket whether I was in London, Paris, Rio De Janeiro, Calgary, Chicago, Denver, Dallas or NYC. I'm a little hinky about big cities, no matter where.

Regarding the knife warning, can you document that assertion that carrying a pocket blade of any kind will get you in deep doo-doo?

@JoergS: again, some good ideas. But also again, can you come up with some documentation as to the assertions "...In Europe, you will be treated as the criminal, not as the victim in such cases. The legal bills will pile up high..."

I had fun in London, staying out late at the pubs, going to some great restaurants, experiencing some wonderful theater, etc. I was there for 4 weeks one time, 5 weeks another, and a week another time. Guess I must lead a charmed life. Or maybe they just didn't want to mess with a fat ugly Texan :D .

Kurt, how about this, from here: http://www.allsafedefense.com/news/International/BritCrimeMyth.htm

"Three cases illustrate the results of these measures:

In 1987, two men assaulted Eric Butler, a 56-year-old British Petroleum executive, in a London subway car, trying to strangle him and smashing his head against the door. No one came to his aid. He later testified, ''My air supply was being cut off, my eyes became blurred, and I feared for my life.'' In desperation he unsheathed an ornamental sword blade in his walking stick and slashed at one of his attackers, stabbing the man in the stomach. The assailants were charged with wounding. Butler was tried and convicted of carrying an offensive weapon.

In August 1999, Tony Martin, a 55-year-old Norfolk farmer living alone in a shabby farmhouse, awakened to the sound of breaking glass as two professional burglars burst into his home. He had been robbed six times before but, like 70 percent of rural English villages, his had no police presence. He sneaked downstairs with a shotgun and shot at the intruders. Martin received life in prison for killing one burglar, 10 years for wounding the second, and 12 months for having an illegal shotgun.

In 1994, an English homeowner, armed with a toy gun, managed to detain two burglars who had broken into his house, while he called the police. When the officers arrived they arrested the homeowner for using an imitation gun to put someone in fear. Parliament is now considering making imitation guns illegal."

I am NOT saying Europe - which includes London - is an unsafe place. It is not. I have never been attacked and noone ever broke into my house. I am just saying that if you get robbed, it is a good idea to carry some cash with you, it makes no sense to risk the legal consequences of hurting the robber.

Just remember, no matter where you go in London, You're on Camera.

AFS

learn and memorize the address for the American Embassy as well. If bad stuff goes down you will want to get there post haste.

JoergS: Yes sir, I recall hearing about that Martin case but not the other ones.

BTW, my Brit friends were fascinated by the fact that I was licensed to carry a concealed weapon here, and that I had a nice little collection of handguns, rifles, and shotguns. They said it was not uncommon for a farmer there to own a shotgun or a "two-two", but that was about it.

Regarding the carrying of small amounts of cash to satisfy a robber, I was given that same advice when I was going to Rio by a "carioca". Seemed sensible enough and I followed it. I'd carry some American dollars, $20 or $30, and some Brazilian Reals, maybe a 100 or so (very favorable exchange rate at the time).

i'm leaving today (paddy's day 17th) going to heathrow then up north to yorkshire where i was born and lived the first half of my life.
i always ignore them "londoners" ,,, most are "too posh " for me and my time.
:evil::what::evil:
have a wonderfull thursday. adrians

My wife and I spent 3 days in London on our way back from a trip to Tunisia last November and it was nice but cold. I carried a SAK with me everywhere I went. I was only asked if I had a knife on me once when entering some museum. I lied and said no. They didn't bother checking. We didn't do a whole lot of going inside places, but the ones we did, I had no issues. We used the Tube for all travel, even some later at night and had no problems. My size takes care of most folks ideas of doing us/me harm most of the time.

As long as you'd being staying out of the limelight/avoiding trouble like normal, it may be somewhat unlawful but I don't see a problem with it. Perhaps laws have changed but I went tdy over there two years ago and carried my little 2.5in Case, didn't clip it to my pocket though. I mean who's going to frisk you for carrying on about your business?

Two of your cases would have had similar results in a lot of jusridictions (and I can't find much on the third)



In 1987, two men assaulted Eric Butler, a 56-year-old British Petroleum executive, in a London subway car, trying to strangle him and smashing his head against the door. No one came to his aid. He later testified, ''My air supply was being cut off, my eyes became blurred, and I feared for my life.'' In desperation he unsheathed an ornamental sword blade in his walking stick and slashed at one of his attackers, stabbing the man in the stomach. The assailants were charged with wounding. Butler was tried and convicted of carrying an offensive weapon.

Possession of a sword stick is illegal and will get you jail time all over the world (including much of the US), had he used a cane/stick to beat the attacker he would probably have been ok, though the London bobbies are big on "reasonable force", when the bad guy falls to the floor, stop hitting him.


In August 1999, Tony Martin, a 55-year-old Norfolk farmer living alone in a shabby farmhouse, awakened to the sound of breaking glass as two professional burglars burst into his home. He had been robbed six times before but, like 70 percent of rural English villages, his had no police presence. He sneaked downstairs with a shotgun and shot at the intruders. Martin received life in prison for killing one burglar, 10 years for wounding the second, and 12 months for having an illegal shotgun.


He hadn't been robbed, he had been burgled. His problem was that the prosecution showed he hid out and waited for the burglars with an illegal pump action shotgun (only single shot/double barrel shotguns can be licenced amd possessed in the UK). When the burglars arrived, he chased them and then fatally shot the 15 year old in the back and the other in the leg as they tried to run away. Hardly a self defence scenario.


In 1994, an English homeowner, armed with a toy gun, managed to detain two burglars who had broken into his house, while he called the police. When the officers arrived they arrested the homeowner for using an imitation gun to put someone in fear. Parliament is now considering making imitation guns illegal."

couldn't find any info on this one.

UK law is simple, you can't be in public and carry an item for the purpose of self defence, you can, however, use anything to hand (with the reasonable test) if you are attacked. So a walking stick, umbrella etc is fine. In the woods, chances are even an knife would probably be ok. There was a recent case where a homeowner stabbed a burglar to death in his kitchen (so knife to hand) when the burglar attacked him and he was not prosecuted for the death.

As long as your actions are reasonable (to a normal MOP) odds are you won't have a problem.

For defence, (though NEVER admit to it being for defence) would be a good strong walking stick. Anyone can use one unless you look like the type to attract police attention (hint, gang banger or similar looking youth would probably get pulled).

The law says that you can't carry any item that has the purpose of self defense. So I don't know how a 'tactical pen' might look to the police.

Not very good. But an ordinary pen will do just as well, and be legally safer. See my article Tactical Pen vs. an Ordinary Pencil, or "Pay More for Less" (http://www.real-self-defense.com/self_defense_tip_58.html).

I've lived in London for about ten years, you will be fine if you just keep your wits about you. Pepper or CS sprays are considered firearms in the UK and if you're caught with one the police will charge you similarly. Don't bring them over, I've seen so many come through that the police have confiscated because they're freely available in places like France and Germany and really cheap too, so they get taken back to the UK in luggage and then people get in trouble if they're found with them. I work in forensics in armed criminality, we see this thing and other cool stuff come in the lab all the time. A stout umbrella might not be a bad idea, but London really doesn't rain as much as it's portrayed on the TV, but that being said carrying an umbrella won't draw any attention, Londoners are pretty much too busy to be that bothered :) Feel free to send me a message if you would like any other info on London (unless this post has expired).

Great post. I am off to San Francisco next month on a medical convention and have similar concerns.

See my thread about sticks vs. knives and get yourself a HEAVY walking stick.

The first time I went to London, I asked my local co-workers what areas of London were not safe.
They all scratched their heads, and said "none".
You'll be surprised how many Non-Brits are in London, (where did all the Brits go?)
but they have a different attitude there. They trust their government, the population is cosmopolitan, and they don't have "ghettos" (that I ever saw.)
Riding the "Tube" is clean and safe.
One caution........don't attempt to drive in London. It's insane.

It's a great city, except you could probably get plutonium easier than ice in your drink. Warm beer? Phut!

It's true London doesn't have any specific ghettos, but there are lots of government housing areas which tend to be a bit rowdy. I always joke that us foreigners run London, you'll see if you ever have to ask directions, don't be surprised if the person has a non-UK accent or possibly doesn't speak English at all. The subway systems are easy to ride, but cramped and have no AC, make sure you buy an "oyster" card, you can get a one week pass that covers however many areas you would like and is far cheaper than buying a new ticket everyday. Yeah driving here is nuts, the road systems are insane plus there is a congestion charge levied for merely driving in town! LOL, I've never had warm beer here, it's usually served around 50–57 °F. I usually go to a TGI Fridays and get a Sam Adams instead, much better ;)

http://www.myswimbaby.com/assets/images/kksling27oz.jpg

As has been pointed out to me by a member here, you can fill it halfway with water the night before and freeze it so that you'll always have access to some cold refreshing water in case you get thirsty!

Good call CWL, and if you need to, there are loads of small convenience stores with affordable bottled water. It's not Hawaii heat, but at the moment were getting 25C degree weather at the moment so London can still get a little warm - plan your hydration accordingly.

don't be surprised if the person has a non-UK accent or possibly doesn't speak English at all.
I was always shocked when I would ask a black person for directions, and they spoke exactly like everyone else, no jive. If you closed your eyes you absolutely can't tell the difference.
What would be PC? African-Brit? African-English?

It took us a few trips before we found the good food, usually in a pub.

Our hotel had the "American" breakfast. Eggs fried in 1" of oil, sauteed mushrooms, broiled tomatos, baked beans, and "rashers" (sort of country ham and divine!) Toast MUST be served cold, even to the extent of bringing it on these racks to separate the slices.
Potatoes? Never saw them for breakfast.

I do miss trips to the UK, the people are great. They do think we are a little crazy, but they forgive us.

All my black British friends just call themselves British, I've never heard any of them refer to anything else, you'll be fine just calling them British :)