Has anyone been stopped by a leo before


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klutchless
March 15, 2011, 06:25 PM
I was carrying open in my local grocery and there aparently was some type of situation in the front were police were called and I didnt notice it at first no lights and sirens or anything I beleive it was someone stealing a candybar or somthing and when i waiked to the front to pay for my stuff the officer noticed my weapon and proceeded to batter me with questions as to why I had a gun and he was very pushy and rude. I have never dealt with this issue with a officer and what anyone elses experiances were. He might have simply been doing his job but with the questions it seemed to be a attack of sorts on me personally.:mad:

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Robert
March 15, 2011, 06:28 PM
Nope, I have carried a rifle in the grocery store before and no one took notice.

cleardiddion
March 15, 2011, 06:34 PM
I've been pretty good with officer interactions so far when OCing (at least in CO).
1st time was when I got pulled over on the north side of Longmont and the sheriff didn't even bat an eye at it.
The second time I was up in Lyons for Good Ol' Days and ran into a couple. The only question that they had was what I was carrying and how it shot and all that jazz.

A negative interaction (whether real or as percieved by the person) is bound to happen to everyone but like I said I've been lucky so far.

klutchless
March 15, 2011, 07:06 PM
I have been stopped by state troopers and local sheriffs before and they never mentioned anything more than can i see your permit. But this officer asked for my id my permit what vehical was mine why i thought i needed a gun who my friend was in the car if i had any speeding tickets how many rounds my gun carried did i know the diference between open carry and conceled carry whether or not i knew that by practicing open carry I could insight public panic who was my instructor for my permit just alot of uncalled for questioning that for the majority i refused to answer which seemed to draw more.He backed off when I started asking badge number and to see his id which i have the right to in OHIO.

NavyLCDR
March 15, 2011, 07:16 PM
3 times.

Once in a shopping mall. Two real police officers mentioned to me the mall was private property and that firearms were prohibited there by the property owners, but if I concealed my gun there would be no problems, so I concealed it and thanked them for the information.

Second time was in preparation for being in a parade for children with disabilities with my wife and daughter (daughter has an amputation.) It was in the middle of Seattle. Cop approached me in the park and asked if I knew about the controversy about guns in Seattle parks. I told him I did (the mayor had enacted an illegal gun ban against state law that was later struck down by the Washington courts). He asked if I would conceal it, I did because I wasn't so sure about carrying a gun IN a parade anyway.

Third time I was eating dinner in a restaurant. Cop asks me to go outside. Being young and foolish I obliged. For 10 minutes he lectured me about open carrying. He threatened to have my Concealed Pistol License revoked, which (1) he had no authority to revoke and (2) had absolutely nothing to do with the situation because I was open carrying which does not require a permit. Finally I told him to either write me a citation for breaking whatever law he thought I was breaking, or I was going back into the restaurant to finish eating.

He handed my ID and CPL back to me and followed me back in the restaurant. Then he shows up at my table with an 18 year old waitress in tow behind him and tells me I have to leave. So I paid for my meal and left...still open carrying the whole time.

I hand delivered a letter to the restaurant the next day. In response to my letter, before I even got home, the owner had called and profusely apologized. She said the restaurant had not called the police. She said it was not their desire that the police remove me. They had no problems at all with people carrying firearms for self-protection and invited me, my friends and my family, and our firearms to come back. A customer had called 911 about a man with a gun and the cop acted on his own accord.

I wrote an email to the Chief of Police expressing my outrage that his officers were interfering with a business's law abiding customers, against the business owner's wishes. We arranged for an open carry luncheon at the restaurant the next weekend, the Chief of Police and his officers were invited to join us socially, and were also warned that we would be lawfully present on private property in violation of no laws and that any action on any of his officer's part to remove us from the private property would result in court action.

The restaurant got about 14 of us for lunch, +family and friends, and the cops never showed up and have never bothered an open carrier again in our small town.

After my experiences and talking with others, the best thing you can do when approached by a police officer is to first ask if you are being detained. If the answer is no, then kindly tell the officer you do not desire to have an interaction with him and either leave, or ask that he leave you alone. Never "step aside" with the officer - make him do his business in public, with witnesses. If you are being detained, then he must have reasonable and articulable suspicion of a crime being committed and by forcing him to tell you that you are being detained, you have put the burden of proof on him to prove his RAS in court. If you don't ask, and you simply comply with the officer, and you want to go to court later, then the burden of proof is on you to prove that you were actually detained rather than just voluntarily cooperating with the officer.

NavyLCDR
March 15, 2011, 07:21 PM
Oh.. and #4.... I was stopped for speeding. After the officer checked my driver's license he asked me to exit the vehicle. I did, with my openly carried PT-145 clearly visible on my belt. I walked back to between our vehicles where he was waiting. He explained he was going to let me go with a warning, but didn't want to lecture me in front of my wife and the kids in the car. I thanked him, and returned to my vehicle. I am sure he had to see my gun, but never mentioned it. My Washington CPL is not tied to my Wyoming driver's license, so he had no way of knowing if I had a license to carry or not. (And neither did the two cops in the mall either, for that matter).

klutchless
March 15, 2011, 07:23 PM
I know leos are individuals . I was just curious of what other peoples experiances were in the bad experiance with a leo .

klutchless
March 15, 2011, 07:28 PM
Thanks for the great input Navy LT I let the officer have control when he had no reason to detain me lesson learned.

hermannr
March 15, 2011, 07:36 PM
I mostly open carry (or at least that is what I call it) in a fully enclosed hunting holster. (I have been told that it could be considered concealed carry because you cannot see the weapon, just the holster).

The only thing that has ever been said to me was I need to be carefull not to incite at "man with a gun" call to 911 from someone that does not know the law. Yes, the empty holster did that one day.

General Geoff
March 15, 2011, 07:38 PM
The hardest part about a hostile LEO encounter while open carrying is to remain confident of your knowledge and actions. As law abiding citizens, we've been conditioned all our lives to cooperate with the police, and it takes a lot of willpower to verbally disagree with an officer in public, let alone defying a request.

That is the most important thing to remember: You've done nothing wrong. As long as you remain confident of your stance, the rest of the encounter is cake.

Dr_B
March 15, 2011, 07:52 PM
I've never had an LEO encounter that included any discussion about my firearm. On the few occasions when I have done ride-alongs with the local PD and Sheriff, I was unarmed. However, a friend of mine was stopped for speeding in southern Idaho and all the highway patrolman did was talk guns with him and let him go. There have been MWAG calls around town in response to people open carrying. The cops are not cool with open carrying here, but the generally seem to be cool with concealed carry. Many of them are "gun guys" too.

HorseSoldier
March 15, 2011, 08:02 PM
It would tend towards the irresponsible for an officer to not contact someone they observed to be armed in the vicinity of some sort of disturbance or incident. Between bad/incomplete info from people who called in and then that being garbled when passing through Dispatch (despite all attempts on the part of Dispatchers) it's very common to roll up on a call thinking it's one thing and then finding out it's very different once you get there.

That said, there's no associated requirement for the officer who contacted you to be unpleasant about it. Don't know if he thought the OP was involved, or was trying to discourage open carry in accordance with some personal beliefs, or was just having a crappy day -- not saying all of the above are legitimate reasons for an officer to be less than pleasant to a citizen, but any of those, or any number of other things, could have been involved.

Deltaboy
March 15, 2011, 08:16 PM
We have CCW in TX and I have been stopped 1 time by DPS for speeding on a trip to Ark to see my parents. He made me get out of the SUV and we had a nice visit after he ran my DL and found out I was a Vol Sheriffs Dept Pastor.

Sorry you got hasselled. Glad the Resturant stood up for you and are pro-gun.

Sam1911
March 15, 2011, 08:16 PM
[Hey, here's a novel idea: Let's have a discussion of the question at hand without turning it into 'OC -vs. - CCW" thread number 1,190,847,37. -- Many thanks.]

General Geoff
March 15, 2011, 08:16 PM
Anyway, to try to get back on topic, I've only ever been confronted by the police once in regards to open carry, and that was a few years ago. They didn't disarm me or hold me at gunpoint. They did annoy me since I wasn't breaking any laws, and in Pennsylvania, simply carrying a gun does not constitute reasonable articulable suspicion of a crime being committed.

SharpsDressedMan
March 15, 2011, 08:20 PM
London, Ohio? Go to the police department and suggest that they send that officer for a refresher course at the Peace Officer's Training Academy, London, Ohio, on current Ohio law regarding LEGITIMATE concealed carry for citizens. Apparently, he didn't get that memo/information.

klutchless
March 15, 2011, 08:22 PM
Just found out the leo involved is the town's chief of police and that explains why no cruizers and why he wasn't in uniform as for the attitude i beleive they called him in from home so that might have somthin to do with it.

NavyLCDR
March 15, 2011, 08:32 PM
The only thing that has ever been said to me was I need to be careful not to incite at "man with a gun" call to 911 from someone that does not know the law. Yes, the empty holster did that one day.

So, let me make sure I am understanding this. You were told that it was your responsibility to be careful not to incite a 911 call while you are engaging in perfectly legal activity?!? And exactly what if there was a 911 call made in regards to your perfectly legal activity? Is that your fault?

What exactly are the police going to do to you if they receive a 911 call regarding your perfectly legal activity?

klutchless
March 15, 2011, 08:33 PM
Couldn't agree more general geoff no one robs a store with a sherriff standing at the counter. I think someone might have been dumb enough to try it hehe.

klutchless
March 15, 2011, 08:38 PM
In response to Navt Lt I was informed I can be charged for creating a public panic for my oc

Dean1818
March 15, 2011, 08:42 PM
I was pulled over at night on the way back from Colorado to Texas (In west Texas)

I was speeding a bit and changed lanes without a signal


I was very professional and polite, and showed my CCW permit along with my DL. I also kept both hands on the wheel when he walked up.

The patrolman was equally nice and showed almost no interest nor did he even ask about the CCW weapon.

I told him I would be more careful in the future and he let me off with a warning

My thoughts are that WE need to approach this type of situation in a positive light as much as possible and to not try to "stir" the pot.... or provoke an incident. I truly believe that if you are looking for a fight..... you will get it.

If we do get hasseled, we do need to report the cop. (the next day)

I think that we should remember that the cops sometimes (many times) deal with Jerks all day...... we dont need to be one as well.

I sure as heck am not seeking to get into a heated arguement with a cop in the middle of the night......... My lawyer can be a jerk better than me in a courtroom if neccessary

I sometimes see an attitude out of some folks that is confrontational with our LEOs.......They are people just like us......... We have bad days and good days.... just like them.


Always best to not get angry......

Hypnogator
March 15, 2011, 08:53 PM
I was informed I can be charged for creating a public panic for my oc

You probably can be. And until some people are, and the arresting officers/departments get their heads handed to them in civil court as a 1983 violation, that can be used to "discourage" open carry.:banghead::banghead::banghead:

no one robs a store with a sherriff standing at the counter.

Oh, I don't know. They just had a news report about a bank robber that handed the teller a note saying he had a bomb in a bag, then handed the teller a check and showed the teller two forms of ID so she would be sure to cash the check! :what::eek::D:D:D

NavyLCDR
March 15, 2011, 09:15 PM
In response to Navt Lt I was informed I can be charged for creating a public panic for my oc

You were lied to.

You probably can be.

Well, actually, I suppose there is a difference between being charged and convicted.... the state law in Washington is:

RCW 9.41.270:

(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

Notice a few things about the statute. First is the word "warrants". The statute does NOT say causes. It says "warrants". The Washington Supreme Court has ruled that the mere carrying of a firearm in a manner not prohibited by state law does not warrant alarm. Alarm is not warranted unless the gun is pointed at someone, or other behavior besides carrying the firearm warrants alarm.

Also, ALL of the elements of .270 must be met... "in a manner" - a holstered handgun is not "in a manner" that warrants alarm; "under circumstances" - if you are in a circumstance that are a part of normal, everyday life than "under circumstances" is not met; "at a time and place" - if you are in a location where it is normal to be at for that time of day, then "at a time and place" is not met.

The mere fact that someone DOES panic at the sight of your holstered firearm carried in a business during normal business hours does not violate RCW 9.41.270. Police (and others) who threaten you with a 9.41.270 violation just because someone calls 911 are either blowing smoke or ignorant of the law.

See State v. Spencer:
http://forum.nwcdl.org/index.php?action=downloads;sa=downfile&id=25

and State v. Casad:
http://forum.nwcdl.org/index.php?action=downloads;sa=downfile&id=9

FC
March 15, 2011, 09:38 PM
NavyLT, you realize you are quoting Wa state law to a guy who lives in Ohio...Right?

SharpsDressedMan
March 15, 2011, 09:41 PM
Prior to Ohio getting CCW permits available, as prescribed by law, Ohio was an open carry state. It still is for non-ccw permit holders. This cop seems to be badge heavy and brain-lite.

HOOfan_1
March 15, 2011, 09:55 PM
The only time I have really had any dealings with Law Enforcement other than talking to them person to person, I.E. where they were talking to me in their capacity as a law enforcement office, have been those times when I was checked by Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries Game wardens. Considering I was hunting those times, of course I had a gun...and they should expect nothing different. Not a single one of those times were they rude, nor did they demand I unload or place my gun on the ground.

I've caught a few episodes of "Wild Justice" about California Game Wardens and they seem to be nothing but rude and willing to declare guilt until proven innocent. Of course, this is California, where pretty much anyone who is armed is considered close to an outlaw. When going to check people, they always seem to disarm them and even draw their weapons, even when approaching people who give them no probable cause to be suspicious, other than they are hunting with weapons...

Not to mention the many times, they have gone investigated dead animals, gone to the person who admits they were probably the one who killed it, who tell them the story, whose story is completely within the legal methods of taking game in California, people who with hold no information...and they they give them the "if you are lying to me, you are going to be in trouble"

IMO that kind of talk is completely disrespectful. This nation was not founded to be a police state, and law enforcement should not be allowed to act in such a manner. You were breaking no laws.

My answer to his question of why I was carrying a gun would be "for protection"

If he continued to hound me I would say "would you please state which law I am breaking?"

Having no answer to that other than blustering, I would simply say "have a nice day and continue on with my business" Police who are harassing people are breaking the law, not you who are peaceably carrying in accordance with your state's laws.

rooter
March 15, 2011, 09:58 PM
Actually sharpsdressedman, prior to ccw permits, Ohio law was confusing at best. Open carry a loaded gun and you could be looking at a charge of inducing panic, conceal carry one and you were looking at a carrying a concealed weapon charge unless you were a LEO. There was no concrete definition of how you could legally carry a loaded gun on your person in the ORC.

I've caught a few episodes of "Wild Justice" about California Game Wardens and they seem to be nothing but rude and willing to declare guilt until proven innocent. Of course, this is California, where pretty much anyone who is armed is considered close to an outlaw. When going to check people, they always seem to disarm them and even draw their weapons, even when approaching people who give them no probable cause to be suspicious, other than they are hunting with weapons...

Hey, Hoofan, as a stranger I'm going to walk into your backyard carrying a gun. You stroll on out, leave your gun concealed on your person, and confront me in a polite fashion. Remember, you're not allowed to treat me like I could be a criminal and you're not allowed to take any precautions to safeguard yourself, it might hurt my feelings and I will go online and tell people you were rude to me. I could be a criminal intent on harming you. Think you can perceive me as a threat, react, draw, and take care of me before I can harm you. I didn't think so. Well, when your are out and about, you are in a LEO's backyard. When he checks you out to see what you are doing, he has every right to do whatever he has to do to insure his safety, no matter how bad it hurts your feelings or how unfair you think it is.


Klutchless, it seems to me the only reason to open carry in a CCW state is to bring attention upon yourself. Why are you surprised you received extra attention? Open carry is for the woods, trails, and private property. I see no real reason to be open carrying in a grocery store.

Ala Dan
March 15, 2011, 10:00 PM
My local grocer knows that I am a former LEO; but still the little ole' women
working as cashier's at the check-out counter get spooked when I approach
their line with a visible weapon showing; and call for security to "scan my
actions" on CCTV. It does not bother me one bit, cuz as the owner says "it
keeps them of their toes"~! ;) :)

Oyeboten
March 15, 2011, 10:02 PM
Have I ever been stopped by a LEO?


Yes, as well as by Aries, Virgo, Sagittarious, Scoprio, Pisces, Libra...

Although now a days, hardly anyone bothers asking anyone else's sign anymore...so, harder to tell.

( Sorry, couldn't resist...)

NavyLCDR
March 15, 2011, 10:15 PM
NavyLT, you realize you are quoting Wa state law to a guy who lives in Ohio...Right?

Dammit.

I was originally responding to hermannr. Never mind... :cool:

FC
March 15, 2011, 10:19 PM
Dammit.


My bad..

thunder173
March 15, 2011, 10:29 PM
I was pulled over a few weeks ago by a State Trooper. He was not a rookie. I didn't use my turn signal making a turn. I did the duty to inform thing, as required in Michigan,...and asked him how he would like to proceed. He asked where the gun was,..I told him,... and and at his request, I proceeded to provided my proof of insurance, vehicle registration, DL, and my CPL. He then asked me for the Safety Inspection Certificate for my revlover. I informed him I didn't have it on me, but that I understood it wasn't required to be carried.

He said it wasn't,..but because I didn't have it on me, he would have to secure my revolver, and run it to see if if I was the legal owner. I cooperated,..and stood sideways to him while he attempted to remove my revolver from it's holster. After fumbling with the thumb break,..he finally managed to remove the revolver from the holster,..took it to his vehicle and "made the check".

After a few moments, he brought the revolver back,..and gave me an odd look. He said,.."Did you know the serial number was covered by the custom grips?" To that I responded,..."Yes I did,......but you didn't ask."

He handed me back my revolver, with my documents,..suggested I clean my revolver,..and told me to have a good day.

klutchless
March 15, 2011, 10:30 PM
I did not intend on making a incident out of the situation but the leo seemed to be intent on making it one and when I refused to respond he was not happy and I was no threat to anyone I had a 20lb bag of dog food on one shoulder and a carrying cart of groceryies in my right hand and my wallet in my left when the officer saw my weapon and asked me outside. In all honesty unless i was being shot at I dont think I could have moved fast enough to get to my gun to be a threat to anyone but myself.

NavyLCDR
March 15, 2011, 10:31 PM
My bad..

Actually, you were exactly correct, I did end up quoting WA law to an Ohio resident!

MedWheeler
March 15, 2011, 10:37 PM
Did you at least report to him the theft of all of your periods..?

I have been stopped by state troopers and local sheriffs before and they never mentioned anything more than can i see your permit. But this officer asked for my id my permit what vehical was mine why i thought i needed a gun who my friend was in the car if i had any speeding tickets how many rounds my gun carried did i know the diference between open carry and conceled carry whether or not i knew that by practicing open carry I could insight public panic who was my instructor for my permit just alot of uncalled for questioning that for the majority i refused to answer which seemed to draw more.He backed off when I started asking badge number and to see his id which i have the right to in OHIO.

SharpsDressedMan
March 15, 2011, 10:38 PM
Actually, open carry in Ohio was the only way to BEAR ARMS under the state and US constitutions, and law enforcemnent and prosecutors in Ohio have come to abuse the scopes of their authority by trying to use the "inducing Panic", disorderly, trespassing, and any other law they could twist and manipulate to "handle" the presence of an armed person in their jurisdictions that were not able to be charged with real crimes, like agg. menacing, assault, etc. These "suspects", in many cases, were just walking down the street. The arrogance and abuses by these agencies, etc, were a result of Ohio long being "civilized", too many years of citizens NOT exercising a right to carry that certainly was there 150 years ago. As we forwent the bearing of arms, police and prosecutors determined that we no longer had the need or the RIGHT to do so. You decide what is right or is wrong with that. I speak from over 16 years in Ohio law enforcement, and I know how Ohio police think and act. I will also note that the way prosecutors and police treat this issue varies heavily from the big cities to the more rural areas. The law is the same; the bureaucracies in the cities is where the problem is. They ride roughshod over the citizen to keep the rest in line, mostly because they are not that good at what they do. Fortunately, I never worked for agencies or with prosecutors and court officials that had such low respect for citizens rights. I would have definitely been down another cops throat if he started hassling an otherwise innocent person for open carry. That is WHY I became a cop.

klutchless
March 15, 2011, 10:41 PM
In response to rooter I carry both conceled and open I live and work on a farm so I am usually on private property and i didnt bother going to the house to change my rig because I had to run to town .

klutchless
March 15, 2011, 10:43 PM
Correction it is not a town it is a village.

klutchless
March 15, 2011, 10:45 PM
In response to medWheeler sorry about the poor puncuation I was trying to remember everything he asked me for.

c1ogden
March 15, 2011, 11:20 PM
Cop are just like doctors, teachers, carpenters, plumbers, or any other group of people - some suck, some are great, and most are just average people.

The officer you dealt with was obviously an elitist who thinks that only cops should have guns. I've been a cop for 29 years and, unfortunately, this viewpoint is very common in my area and I'm frequently harassed for my pro-gun activism. Fortunately, I understand that its rather rare in most other parts of the USA.

Next time a cop asks you why you're carrying a gun tell him the truth - "For the same reason that you are!".

ATBackPackin
March 15, 2011, 11:25 PM
I live in PA, but meet my ex-wife in DE to pick up my daughter. While waiting one time for them to arrive I struck up a conversation with a local LEO. I was not armed at the time, but I asked him about carrying in DE because I was going to get a VA non-resident permit so I could carry there. He told me that was fine, but I could also open carry without a permit in DE.................


But if someone called the police about a man with a gun that I could be arrested for disturbing the peace, so he didn't recommend it.:confused::eek::banghead::cuss:

Shawn

Tom488
March 15, 2011, 11:33 PM
He told me that was fine, but I could also open carry without a permit in DE.................
But if someone called the police about a man with a gun that I could be arrested for disturbing the peace, so he didn't recommend it.
Sounds like you had a conversation with Buford T. Justice.... "Oh, you can THINK about it.... but doooonnnn't do it" :D

merlinfire
March 15, 2011, 11:36 PM
All this talk about inciting a panic by the merely OC'ing in a way that doesn't break any laws seems strange to me. How can a law's application be based on someone else's perception of your actions, rather than your actual actions? Seems like that could not routinely hold up in court.

HOOfan_1
March 15, 2011, 11:38 PM
Well, when your are out and about, you are in a LEO's backyard. When he checks you out to see what you are doing, he has every right to do whatever he has to do to insure his safety, no matter how bad it hurts your feelings or how unfair you think it is.


then we are living in a police state.

LEOs do not OWN their jurisdiction.

jbr
March 16, 2011, 12:09 AM
Last traffic stop (9 year old daughter in toe -driving a 67 ragtop camaro rs) i did my duty to inform and the leo asked me where my weapon was. It was in a shoulder bag i keep my check book, office keys etc... in, so when i switch vehicles i can grab it and go. He asked for it - i gave it to him - he asked if i had any other weapons - i replied no - he went to his car with my bag. i understand he wants to secure the weapon (although i was secure with it where it was) and i don't know if opened the bag but i'm not sure i liked him taking it to his car. Anyway, he brought it back with an extra pink decoration that i could have done without.

J_McLeod
March 16, 2011, 12:17 AM
Back in 2001 when I lived in the people's republic of California I was stopped by an officer in while driving back from the range. He asked where I was coming from and I told him, then he asked to see my guns. So I went back and opened the trunk for him. He looked, the let me go. He was very professional and non chalant about it.

Not sure about the legality of me having to open the trunk for search, but I probably would have lost that fight.

In early 2009 I went on a ride along with the Lakewood, WA PD. While out we got a call about someone in the mall parking lot sitting in their car with a gun. LEO was not overly concerned about it, since OC was legal. If someone complained he'd have to tell them to put it away, but nothing more. He did express an antipathy toward civilian ownership of semi auto rifles though.

NavyLCDR
March 16, 2011, 12:31 AM
If someone complained he'd have to tell them to put it away

Not unless the person who complained was the property owner.

klutchless
March 16, 2011, 12:41 AM
In response to MerlinFire that is a common threat to scare people into not open carrying . It does not typically hold up in court but I can waste 48hrs by myself without the cell and lose of property and the lovely paperwork to claim what was already yours.So it is a hassle all the way around but most officers wont actually go to that extent thankfully because of the lawsuits that would insue.My case was a rare unexplained situation and I know is not common with the majority of officers out there and for that I am thankfull.

Toforo
March 16, 2011, 12:49 AM
I was carrying open in my local grocery and there aparently was some type of situation in the front were police were called and I didnt notice it at first no lights and sirens or anything I beleive it was someone stealing a candybar or somthing and when i waiked to the front to pay for my stuff the officer noticed my weapon and proceeded to batter me with questions as to why I had a gun and he was very pushy and rude. I have never dealt with this issue with a officer and what anyone elses experiances were. He might have simply been doing his job but with the questions it seemed to be a attack of sorts on me personally.:mad:
I think that if you walk (unaware) into an "officer on a call scene" while you're "open-carry" - you'd have to think that the officer "on the call" would have be a little extra wary and cautious....

....Personally, I'd AT LEAST give him that "courtesy" with an understanding politeness.

hermannr
March 16, 2011, 01:00 AM
NavyLT. I actually wasn't hasseled by the LEO, he was very polite. Yes, I was in the grocery store, we were out of food at our hunting camp. I had left all my weapons in camp with the camp sitter just so I wouldn't cause a problem...I guess I did anyway. Someone had called 911 with a man with a gun complaint. The LEO that responded, after he talked to me, then went to the person that called 911 and explained the law to her. Happened in Manson, where a lot of city people have vacation condos on Lake Chelan.

Sommerled
March 16, 2011, 01:02 AM
Stopped by a South Dakota LEO on a gravel road while hunting with my son and buddy. We were on ATV's with rifles in scabbards and OC our handguns. ( for those close up prairie dogs!). The Leo was very professional and was just doing his job by checking our hunting licenses. We were all legal. He was very enamored of our firearms and asked to see them. He acted like a fellow enthusiast as he grinned while handling the uber-expensive 22-250 with the swarovski glass that my buddy had. We gave him a cold coke, and as he left he hollered, "if you see a coyote, shoot it!

Toforo
March 16, 2011, 01:05 AM
and then.....

....Just last week, I was headed to the range with a wide variety of freshly reloaded "test/load" ammo - and the variety of guns that go with it (1911, XD45, XD9) and of course, wearing my ccw - a Colt Defender.

I accelerated on the onramp to I-70 and cruised towards the third exit not paying attention to my speed and bada'BING - saw the MO State Trooper sitting there with the radar - I saw the lights flash and (sighed) - just pulled over.

Busy day on I-70, the trooper walked up to the PASSENGER side of my vehicle - I rolled the window down and he was laughing a bit. I asked him how fast I was going - told him I wasn't paying attention, appologized, told him I'd never had a ticket before - he was laughing even more now...

He looked at me and said "I've never seen an "NRA" sticker on a SUBARU before and It's cracking me up"
(yes, I have a REPUBLICAN Subaru) - the NRA "DISTINGUISHED LIFE MEMBER" sticker dead center of the back window.

I laughed a little too - he told me that as long as my record was clear, he SINCERELY doubted I would get a ticket that day either...
He asked for my registration, license, insurance proof - I popped open the glove box (yup, there's a .38 snubbie in there) - told him I forgot about my glove compartment gun and he was welcome to remove it before I retrieved my registration from the glove box.

He asked "What else do you have" - I told him I was on my way to the range, pointed to my range bag on the floor of the front seat - he opened it and started laughing even harder.
He told me - Have a GREAT Day Mr. Xxxx and walked away laughing.

Dang - I LOVE living in MO, lol

:neener:

NavyLCDR
March 16, 2011, 01:07 AM
NavyLT. I actually wasn't hasseled by the LEO, he was very polite. Yes, I was in the grocery store, we were out of food at our hunting camp. I had left all my weapons in camp with the camp sitter just so I wouldn't cause a problem...I guess I did anyway. Someone had called 911 with a man with a gun complaint. The LEO that responded, after he talked to me, then went to the person that called 911 and explained the law to her. Happened in Manson, where a lot of city people have vacation condos on Lake Chelan.

The only thing that has ever been said to me was I need to be carefull not to incite at "man with a gun" call to 911 from someone that does not know the law.

Still, why would it be your responsibility not to incite a 911 MWAG call?

klutchless
March 16, 2011, 01:18 AM
To Toforo I was polite to the officer and agreed to go to the side leave my products on the counter and talk to him. I did not think I was going to be prosicuted for my life story for doing that.That is where the line was drawn he was not activly engaged in the investigation the casher described the perp as a 14 year old wearing a hoody and im 22 wearing a carhart and bibs and a S&W 40 cal.I understand the diffaculty of being a police officer .But him taking me aside to question me about what I was doing with a gun seemed a bit out of line and very unexpected on my part.

klutchless
March 16, 2011, 01:22 AM
It is not your responsibility but if you make a scene of it you can be charged with inducing panic at least in Ohio.

klutchless
March 16, 2011, 01:25 AM
Unfortionatly Navy Lt peoples poor judgement affects us all expecialy gun owners and people who carry.

hermannr
March 16, 2011, 01:34 AM
NavyLT!

It wasn't my responsibility, the LEO never said it was, he just wanted to try figure out why the woman called. His warning was about displaying the weapon.

To the guy that asked why open carry? Answer, if you have a large, long barreled, hunting pistol, it is rather difficult to conceal. In WA state .44 mag + is legal for hunting. .357 mag is too small. The only thing you can legally shoot with a pistol smaller than .44 mag is grouse.

General Geoff
March 16, 2011, 01:35 AM
To the guy that asked why open carry? Answer, if you have a large, long barreled, hunting pistol, it is rather difficult to conceal. In WA state .44 mag + is legal for hunting. .357 mag is too small. The only thing you can legally shoot with a pistol smaller than .44 mag is grouse.

Do they measure by bullet diameter or energy? disallowing .357 mag while allowing, say, .45acp seems somewhat backwards.

NavyLCDR
March 16, 2011, 01:38 AM
NavyLT!

It wasn't my responsibility, the LEO never said it was, he just wanted to try figure out why the woman called. His warning was about displaying the weapon.

Gotcha...

klutchless
March 16, 2011, 01:40 AM
I have had another experiance with a state highway patrol and not 'flashing' my gun.I had a flat tire on 71 north and got out to change it I retrieved my gun from its lock box and someone saw it and must have thought I was intent on shooting at passing cars so they called the cops. When he arrived he pulled up asked if I had a gun I said yes and turned to show him. He asked what it was I told him a tauras 357mag. He laughed and asked why not a glock I told him my fingers are to fat for the trigger safty and it pinches me .He laughed and helped me lower my truck back on the ground and invited me to come shoot with him at his club sometime overall a very pleasant experiance and still shoot with him at the local range every chance I get.

NavyLCDR
March 16, 2011, 01:49 AM
To the guy that asked why open carry? Answer, if you have a large, long barreled, hunting pistol, it is rather difficult to conceal. In WA state .44 mag + is legal for hunting. .357 mag is too small. The only thing you can legally shoot with a pistol smaller than .44 mag is grouse.

Are you sure?

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=232-12-047

WAC 232-12-047
Unlawful methods for hunting.

(1) It is unlawful to hunt any big game with:

(a) A fully automatic firearm.

(b) A centerfire cartridge less than 22 caliber for cougar.

(c) A centerfire cartridge less than 24 caliber for any other big game.

(d) A shotgun, provided that a 20 gauge, or larger shotgun, using shells loaded with slugs or buckshot size #1 or larger, may be used to hunt deer, bear, and cougar.

(e) A shotgun for any other big game, except that a 12 gauge or 10 gauge shotgun using slugs may be used.

(f) A handgun during a modern firearm season that does not meet the following criteria: Have a minimum barrel length of four inches, per manufacturer's specification, and fire a centerfire cartridge.

(g) Any rimfire cartridge.

(7) It is unlawful to hunt game birds with a rifle or handgun, with the exception of blue grouse, spruce grouse and ruffed grouse.

klutchless
March 16, 2011, 02:03 AM
So I could shoot a bear with my 32 S&W in WA

doc2rn
March 16, 2011, 03:38 AM
I had one interaction while OCing as an armed guard for an armorred car company. Officer drew down on me, had me place firearm on trunk and then ordered me to the front of my vehicle. He then proceeded to unload each and every round from my weapon. I then asked him what I was being accused of/detained for and he said he was looking for a burglar, it was 4 am. I let him run my creds then he threw my rounds in the grass and said have a nice day. He froze when I grabbed my gun and inserted a fresh mag. Evidently he wasnt as funny as he thought. I got his unit and tag # and called the sgt of the day. Never saw him again.

RevolvingGarbage
March 16, 2011, 03:41 AM
I don't want to copy/paste the whole thing, so here's a link to where I recounted a recent run-in I had with OPD.

http://floridaconcealedcarry.com/Forum/showthread.php?18975-Pulled-Over-gt-\

kyletx1911
March 16, 2011, 08:53 AM
i get pulled over all the time by TX DPS i drive a big truck hand over cdl chl, they make
me remove from holster place in seat, walk around truck,cdl chl gets handed back , on
my way, the only thing ever said is nice 1911

Gouranga
March 16, 2011, 09:06 AM
Really most cops are not going to give you a second thought unless you are acting suspicious. There are the rare ones though that will. Your best bet is to follow up the chain of command and report their behavior. If it is the chief, that chain of command is to the mayor and/or council. The fact is, harassment by a city employee (be it an LEO or other) can lead to serious financial repercussions for the city itself and/or political repercussions for the elected officials. They do NOT want to deal with you and the chief is making them have to deal with you for no reason but his pride.

Last time I chatted with an LEO on my gun was actually a pretty nice conversation. I carry a M&P 40FS he carried a M&P 45 FS. So we chatted at length about our impressions of the guns and other models. Was a pretty pleasant exchange.

HOOfan_1
March 16, 2011, 09:28 AM
I don't want to copy/paste the whole thing, so here's a link to where I recounted a recent run-in I had with OPD.

http://floridaconcealedcarry.com/Forum/showthread.php?18975-Pulled-Over-gt-\

When he asked me to hand it to him, I would have asked. "would you like me to clear it?"

If he wasn't threatening to arrest me, I would have just listened to his rant and nodded and been on my way. If he said he was arresting me, then I would say, you are not following our state's laws. Other than that, I would still keep my mouth shut (they aren't changing their minds once they decide to arrest and mouthing off will more likely get you treated a little more roughly). After I told it to the judge I would then start filing formal complaints.

The Constitution of course gave you full rights to voice your dissent of his opinions. Hindsight is of course always 20/20

AWorthyOpponent
March 16, 2011, 09:40 AM
Although we can't OC here in Fl, I've had two run-ins while CC. Both times I was disarmed. One tried to lecture me on gun safety, and couldn't name the 3 rules of gun safety. I gave him the book you get with your NRA FIRST STEPS class.

robhof
March 16, 2011, 09:43 AM
Many years ago, I open carried my B/p revolver when I fished in South Miami. Was harassed on many occasions by Marine partol, they always stated that I was asking for trouble, my reply was that I was advertizing against trouble. Had one encounter night fishing on a bridge, where a group of roudy youths were running down the pier, throwing poles and gear in the water, a cop came by before they got to me, but after that I carried and never had a problem, saw the roudies a year later and they stopped as soon as they saw my rig and ran the other way, never saw them again at that pier.

CajunBass
March 16, 2011, 09:59 AM
I've never had an interaction with a police officer, where the subject of firearms, open, concealed, or otherwise, came up.

2WheelsGood
March 16, 2011, 10:04 AM
...proceeded to batter me with questions as to why I had a gun...You should have said: "for the exact same reason you do".

NavyLCDR
March 16, 2011, 11:42 AM
I don't want to copy/paste the whole thing, so here's a link to where I recounted a recent run-in I had with OPD.

http://floridaconcealedcarry.com/For...lled-Over-gt-\

That police officer violated the 4th Amendment and you would have a very good lawsuit against him. Supreme Court Case Law has established that during a Terry Stop and/or routine Traffic Stop the officer only has the right to disarm you for officer safety if he has reasonable suspicion to believe that you are armed and dangerous.

If you had told him about the gun (which you did) and then he immediately seized the gun temporarily for officer safety, his actions would have been legal. However, it is clear he did not have concern for his safety, because he did not seize the gun until the end of the traffic stop, even though he knew about it from the beginning. At that point in time, he would only be within his legal authority to seize the gun if he had reasonable and articulable suspicion that a crime was/had been committed with it.

Hardware
March 16, 2011, 01:11 PM
Pulled over for speeding while OC in Delaware. I had my pistol secured on the dashboard per Delaware state law. State police officer took my driver's license, registration and insurance card. Pistol was a non-issue. Written up for a 60 in a 55, which was a nice gesture on his part.

Other items of note; I was doing more than 60, I saw his cruiser move to the edge of the busy highway in preparation to pull me over. I started heading right and slowing down immediately. I was stopped in the breakdown lane before he was able to pull out in traffic. I had my engine off, flashers on, as far off the highway as possible. Driver's window down, tinted driver's rear window was down, my hands were on my knees, as far from the pistol as possible while still being visible.

Sometimes life is 10% what happens to you, 90% how you react to it.

tarosean
March 16, 2011, 01:26 PM
Once, but it was actually quite comical.


Back when I lived in New Mexico they used to conduct illegal roadblocks/DWI checkpoints. I rolled through one of them with my gun wedged between the drivers seat and center console of my car. While the officer was asking for my documents (License/insurance/etc.) a group of about 5-6 cadets/trainees were investigating from the passenger side. All of a sudden the trainees start screaming "gun gun gun". That sends the whole scene into an uproar I get asked to exit the vehicle and they secure my 645. The main officer asks me why I have a loaded weapon in the car. My simple answer was "because I can." The main officer tossed my gun on the passenger seat told me to be on my way.


I still get chuckles out of those cadets everytime I see one now-a-days....

hermannr
March 16, 2011, 01:33 PM
NavyLt. I don't know if the RCW you quoted is different than the hunting regs have always been, or not...I can't get the current hunting regs to load becasue they want a new version of Acrobat than I have installed, and for other reasons I do not want to upgrade my version of Acrobat. However, what the RCW allows, and what F&W allow is not always the same.

My wife and I have been hunting in WA state for over 30 years, and I do know the regs have changed as to the use of a cross bow, so they may have changed for handguns also, but they have always been, for as long as I can remember. Now I am talking from Fish and wildlife hunting regulations, not RCW's

You may not use .22 rimfire rifle for anything except grouse, and no centerfire less than .24 rifle for anything except couger or grouse. These are rifles now, not handguns.

There is (was?) a specific muzzle energy spec. for handguns used to hunt "big game", with a caviat that .357 mag was not recognized to meet this spec. (except for grouse). Basically .44 Mag, heavy Ruger 45LC loads and up are legal by the regs. (regs, not RCW)

The current regs are here: http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/regulations/ if you would be so kind as to compare to the RCW. As I said, I tried, but becasue of my version of acrobat I can't get them to load correctly.

FC
March 16, 2011, 03:56 PM
hermannr, you can go hunt bear legally under our current regs with a 4" barreled 25acp if you really think it wise. The current game reg is 24 cal or larger and 4" barrel or longer for handguns.

"Handguns:
Big game, except cougar, may be hunted with
handguns with a minimum barrel length of 4 inches
per manufacturers specification, and fire a minimum
24 caliber centerfire cartridge. Cougar may be
hunted with 22 caliber centerfire handgun. Rimfire
handguns are not legal for big game."

NavyLCDR
March 16, 2011, 03:57 PM
Thank you for posting the link. What I posted was not RCW (Revised Code of Washington). What I posted was the hunting regulations contained in the Washington Administrative Code.

On page 70 of "Washington’s 2010 Big Game
Hunting Seasons & Regulations
Effective April 1, 2010 - March 31, 2011"

http://wdfw.wa.gov/publications/00766/wdfw00766.pdf

is this:

Modern Firearm Regulations

Rifles:
Big game, except cougar, must be hunted with
a minimum of 24 caliber (6mm) centerfire rifle.
Cougar may be hunted with 22 caliber centerfire
rifle. Rimfire rifles are not legal for big game.

Handguns:
Big game, except cougar, may be hunted with
handguns with a minimum barrel length of 4 inches
per manufacturers specification, and fire a minimum
24 caliber centerfire cartridge. Cougar may be
hunted with 22 caliber centerfire handgun. Rimfire
handguns are not legal for big game.

Which seems to be consistent with the Washington Administrative Code I posted. Not sure when the rules changed, as I am actually not a hunter.

hermannr, you can go hunt bear legally under our current regs with a 4" barreled 25acp if you really think it wise. The current game reg is 24 cal or larger and 4" barrel or longer for handguns.

I think what you would end up hunting would be pissed-off bear!

SharpsDressedMan
March 16, 2011, 05:43 PM
Klutchless, you know that it is a good thing to go on record about the incident. I would go this route: Go to your local SHERIFF'S dept, tell them that you want to file a complaint of misconduct against the police chief that gave you the hassle. Explain that you believe he operated outside of the scope of his powers, abused the authority of his office, and that you'd like to get a report on file in the event that the sheriff's office, prosecutors office, or any other potential invetigating authority come to have OTHER complaints about the police chief in question. This will get a LOT of people to sit up quickly and take notice. It is generally deemed BAD JUJU to hassle a person who brings a complaint against a police officer, as then it blows up into a bigger matter, and could invite the state or the feds into a "conspiracy", if there is colusion by other agencies to stifle an investigation, or scare and harass a reporting person such as yourself. Let's not forget, these are PUBLIC SERVANTS, and even chiefs of police answer to someone (this one might answer to a mayor, town council, etc, but the sheriff's office thing is a safe place to start). On the other hand, if the offending officer is given a chance to think about it, and offers a formal apology, I would accept it. No charges wee brought, or unreasonable detention, but he needs to understand that a law abiding, CCW permit carrying, BYSTANDER does not deserve to be hassled.

LKB3rd
March 16, 2011, 05:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by klutchless
In response to Navt Lt I was informed I can be charged for creating a public panic for my oc
You were lied to.

It is true. They can arrest you for whatever they want. It may not stand up in court but the threat of "you can beat the rap but you can't beat the ride" comes into play. Breach of the peace, or disorderly conduct can be, and are, used in the same way.

hermannr
March 16, 2011, 06:04 PM
Thank you FC, and I appoligize to NavyLt...it appears the reg was changed in 2009?

I cannot say for sure, but from the revisions of the WAC it looks like 2009 (which, unfortunately is the last paper regs I still have, and they agree with 2010-2011).

Why they changed it? T/C Contendors? don't know. As I have always complied with the old reg, I have never had a problem there.

It may be that the F&W arrested someone for hunting with a 22 cal handgun (.223) that met the old FtLb energy requirement, but the F&W officer did not think it was a legal for hunting, and it went to court.

I do know that is why the crossbow part of the regs changed. Someone was arrested, and F&W was challanged in court. (and lost) (I know the incident involved with the crossbow, it happened 1/2 from where we used to live in Skagic county.)

cleardiddion
March 16, 2011, 06:46 PM
Although we can't OC here in Fl...

Open Carry is lawful while engaged in, or going directly to and from, lawful Target Shooting, Hunting, Fishing, and Camping expeditions. FL Statutes 790.25(3)(h), (j), and (k)

klutchless
March 16, 2011, 07:32 PM
I didn't file a complaint I figured maybe he was having a bad day or somthing.I have not had a issue with him since and he has seen me around town with my gun.I used to cc when I went to town if I could but any more I oc just to ensure we dont lose that right due to some LEO with with a grudge against it .I do not respond well to intemidation from anyone even the chief of police.

NavyLCDR
March 16, 2011, 07:40 PM
I appoligize to NavyLt...it appears the reg was changed in 2009?

No need to apologize at all. I just like looking things up, posting what I find and where I find it for the education of all involved, including myself!

I still haven't figured out what all the dates, symbols and abbreviations at the bottom of statutes/regulations mean....

Ken451
March 16, 2011, 08:09 PM
Some of Ohio law enforcement is poorly trained in the laws regarding open carry, inducing panic, etc. There is currently a project underway to send a packet to every police department in the state with proper citations.

Here are the Ohio codes regarding inducing panic and disorderly conduct. Obviously someone quietly minding his business while carrying a weapon is not guilty of either charge:

2917.31. Inducing panic


(A) No person shall cause the evacuation of any public place, or otherwise cause serious public inconvenience or alarm, by doing any of the following:

(1) Initiating or circulating a report or warning of an alleged or impending fire, explosion, crime, or other catastrophe, knowing that such report or warning is false;

(2) Threatening to commit any offense of violence;

(3) Committing any offense, with reckless disregard of the likelihood that its commission will cause serious public inconvenience or alarm.

(B) Division (A)(1) of this section does not apply to any person conducting an authorized fire or emergency drill.




2917.11. Disorderly conduct


(A) No person shall recklessly cause inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm to another by doing any of the following:

(1) Engaging in fighting, in threatening harm to persons or property, or in violent or turbulent behavior;

(2) Making unreasonable noise or an offensively coarse utterance, gesture, or display or communicating unwarranted and grossly abusive language to any person;

(3) Insulting, taunting, or challenging another, under circumstances in which that conduct is likely to provoke a violent response;

(4) Hindering or preventing the movement of persons on a public street, road, highway, or right-of-way, or to, from, within, or upon public or private property, so as to interfere with the rights of others, and by any act that serves no lawful and reasonable purpose of the offender;

(5) Creating a condition that is physically offensive to persons or that presents a risk of physical harm to persons or property, by any act that serves no lawful and reasonable purpose of the offender.

(B) No person, while voluntarily intoxicated, shall do either of the following:

(1) In a public place or in the presence of two or more persons, engage in conduct likely to be offensive or to cause inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm to persons of ordinary sensibilities, which conduct the offender, if the offender were not intoxicated, should know is likely to have that effect on others;

(2) Engage in conduct or create a condition that presents a risk of physical harm to the offender or another, or to the property of another.

(C) Violation of any statute or ordinance of which an element is operating a motor vehicle, locomotive, watercraft, aircraft, or other vehicle while under the influence of alcohol or any drug of abuse, is not a violation of division (B) of this section.

(D) If a person appears to an ordinary observer to be intoxicated, it is probable cause to believe that person is voluntarily intoxicated for purposes of division (B) of this section.

(E)(1) Whoever violates this section is guilty of disorderly conduct.

NMGonzo
March 16, 2011, 08:20 PM
I avoid open carry in stores because I know the cops will be called.

What they can't see does not make them paranoid.

SharpsDressedMan
March 16, 2011, 08:34 PM
As in every state, if the police start abusing the interpretation of the law to effect "attitude" arrests, what quite often happens is that states' attorneys general come out with a revision, or list, to law enforcement agencies to "clarify" the matters. When complaints about complexities of laws (in Ohio, the CCW quickly got revamped after adoption due to poor wording and fuzzy and nonsensical concepts of HOW people should carry and display, etc....cudos to the AG and legislature on THAT one!) Bottom line, if cops too often abuse the way a law is enforced, sometimes they get reigned in. A walk-in talk WITH the chief about what you found offensive by the chief might result in him just acknowledging that he was having a bad day, and put you both on first name basis, with him respecting you opinion...........but then, maybe not.............

klutchless
March 16, 2011, 08:46 PM
I think he saw a dirty man in dirty clothes with a beat up truck and a perfectly clean S&W and figured somthin aint right.hehe

hermannr
March 17, 2011, 03:24 AM
NavyLt. I do know what those funny numbers are. They refernce the WAC revisions, dates of the revisions, and applicable RCW authorizing/causing the changes.

I am really very surprised at the muzzle energy change though. That must have been a real fight as that was a F&W biggy 20+ years ago. I do see that they still have the 45 cal handgun requirement for BP/

cleardiddion
March 17, 2011, 04:24 AM
Dang, hermannr beat me to it.

It really depends on how aware people are when it comes to whether you'll be the subject of AMWAG call to the local police or not.

For example, I OC'd quite regularly when I didn't have my CHP (wasn't old enough yet) in some of the most liberal gun hating places in CO (Boulder to be more exact).
I went to the stores, the movies, ate dinner, hiked on some pretty popular trails, and wandered all sorts of places. Heck, I went down Pearl St Mall midsummer (tourist season) that was just buzzing with more people than mosquitos in Florida.
But, people there wouldn't have noticed that I carried unless I either did OC with a long gun or got a podium and a loudspeaker.

Other places, they notice but I haven't really had too terrible interactions. More along the lines of curiosity.

2WheelsGood
March 17, 2011, 09:17 AM
I avoid open carry in stores because I know the cops will be called.

What they can't see does not make them paranoid.And what's so silly about it is that thugs don't open carry! When I see someone open carrying, the last thing I think is that they're up to no good. Thugs only carry concealed.

Ken451
March 17, 2011, 09:33 AM
Thugs only carry concealed.

"He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to fear..." (Pancho & Lefty, Willy Nelson & Merle Haggard)

While I agree with your logic, too many people feel otherwise.

LKB3rd
March 17, 2011, 01:47 PM
For example, I OC'd quite regularly when I didn't have my CHP (wasn't old enough yet) in some of the most liberal gun hating places in CO (Boulder to be more exact).
I went to the stores, the movies, ate dinner, hiked on some pretty popular trails, and wandered all sorts of places. Heck, I went down Pearl St Mall midsummer (tourist season) that was just buzzing with more people than mosquitos in Florida.
But, people there wouldn't have noticed that I carried unless I either did OC with a long gun or got a podium and a loudspeaker.

Other places, they notice but I haven't really had too terrible interactions. More along the lines of curiosity.

I had a similar experience in Hanover, New Hampshire. Dartmouth, college professors etc. I was there, and wanted a book. I went into the crowded Dartmouth book store, got my book. Got a cup of coffee and read my book, ocing the whole time. As far as I could tell, no one even noticed, and if they did, they didn't care because no one reacted at all to it. That was fine with me :)

wishin
March 17, 2011, 06:44 PM
Whenever I OC, I wonder if this will be the day that I'm stopped by an LEO and hassled. So far, so good.

LawScholar
March 17, 2011, 07:26 PM
I don't OC because it's not worth the hassle, even if it is fairly acceptable in Wyoming. I carry a firearm for personal defense. If I can carry a weapon without an assailant knowing about it, the upper hand tilts in my favor.

While police are sometimes confrontational and unpleasant in OC situations, too often the person doing OC exacerbates the situation by being equally or more unpleasant.

That said, I do believe in the right to OC and think it should be vigorously defended.

As for the rude behavior you received, I would certainly report it. There is no call for that.

Deltaboy
March 17, 2011, 07:41 PM
I long for OC in TX just because I want to be able too.

matty-vb
March 18, 2011, 07:23 AM
As an LEO, I am all for legal carry of firearms by responsible citizens. I cannot speak for all officers, but what do you think runs through my mind when I receive a call about a person with a gun? Granted, a person going about everyday business in a public place is a drastic difference from an active shooter, but we try the best we can. Typically, the only info we would get from dispatch is "We have a report of a man/woman with at gun at....."

Davek1977
March 18, 2011, 08:15 AM
what do you think runs through my mind when I receive a call about a person with a gun?

i'd hope it was something along the lines of " I'm going to deal with someone in possession of something that could potentially kill me or others. I should use a reasonable amount of caution.....like I would when approaching people in possession of other "potentially dangerous" items"..... like cars for example. Your average call of "man with a gun" that doesn't involve an active shooter is really no mopre dangerous than approaching any traffic stop, which has the potential for far more variables. You should always uise caution, but going into "hyper-vigilance" mode at the mention of a gun only serves to raise the tension levels for all parties involved, IMO. As an officer, due diligence and caution are cornerstones of your job, and of course most people expect you to approach it carefully. However, officer attitude can escalate an otherwise calm situaiton when responding with more force and/or authority than is called for under the circumstances

Sam1911
March 18, 2011, 09:19 AM
I got stopped last night on my way home from practice. (I'd forgotten it was St. Patrick's Day and hadn't counted on all three of my township's cars being staged at the turn-off to my neck of the woods.)

Young cop walks up and after telling me my headlight is out (doh!) asks for license & reg.

I tell him I'm going to reach for my wallet, in my left front pocket.

"What, are you armed?"
"W..."
"'Cause that's ok if you are I don't care it's just nobody ever bothers to tell me where' they're going to put their hands so I figured you probably were and that's cool, no problem I just have to do the license thing 'cause I already called the plate in but you aren't getting a ticket just a warning and you don't even have to really follow the directions on the sheet it's just get the headlight fixed sometime i'll be right back ... hey... wait, are you carring anything COOL?
"Uh, Smith and Wesson. 629. ..."
"Oh COOL! Hey do you know if there are any cool gun shops around? I moved out here from Philly a while back and I love it but where do you go for gun stuff? ...."

...And on, and on, with a very chatty and pleasant young cop who never did ask to see my LCTF and who told me that they were all out looking for drunks, and hadn't found one yet. :)


...15 minutes later...

"Well take care, you have my card call me if you ever need anything, see you at the next tractor show or the fireman's carival maybe, g'night!

(To myself:)"Uh, strange, he forgot to even write me the warning...!" :)

mdauben
March 18, 2011, 01:16 PM
"Well take care, you have my card call me if you ever need anything, see you at the next tractor show or the fireman's carival maybe, g'night!

(To myself"Uh, strange, he forgot to even write me the warning...!"

Why don't I ever meet these friendly cops? I have nothing but respect for people who risk their lives as LEOs, but all the ones that I meet are either surly or indifferent. :(

General Geoff
March 18, 2011, 01:21 PM
As an LEO, I am all for legal carry of firearms by responsible citizens. I cannot speak for all officers, but what do you think runs through my mind when I receive a call about a person with a gun?

I'd be way more concerned about people driving cars than people carrying guns, as an occupational hazard.


How ridiculous would it sound if you received a call about a person with a car?

gathert
March 18, 2011, 01:59 PM
I'll have to drive through a safety checkpoint tonight with guns in the car. Don't anticipate anything bad happening on a routine checkpoint like that, but I'll just have to find out.

KodiakBeer
March 18, 2011, 02:27 PM
I tend to get a lot of speeding tickets, or actually they usually just pull me over and tell me to slow the hell down. The troopers can be pretty lenient if you're outside of town. Anyway, twice I've been carrying when pulled over and under Alaska law you have to inform. Both times (AK Troopers), they just said something like "Oh yeah, Thanks!" and went on with their business with no further comment.

I sure like the troopers! City cops can be a pain in the rear, especially over in Anchorage, but the troopers always seem to be pleasant but businesslike. They're looking for drunks and criminals and if you aren't one, they're not going to spoil your day over something as frivolous as a gun.

NavyLCDR
March 18, 2011, 02:33 PM
Why don't I ever meet these friendly cops? I have nothing but respect for people who risk their lives as LEOs, but all the ones that I meet are either surly or indifferent.

In the past 3 years, I've had interactions with 8 or 9 police officers. I open carry and I used to be a chronic speeder. 2 out of the 8 or 9 were not pleasant or professional. So, around here (Oak Harbor, WA) I would say it runs 20% PITA's and 80% professional, hardworking people.

mdauben
March 18, 2011, 03:39 PM
I would say it runs 20% PITA's and 80% professional, hardworking people.

I guess the 80% is what I was referring to as 'indifferent'. Not indifferent to doing their jobs, just not interested in having a friendly conversation. Professional, but somewhat remote.

I don't have all that much contact with them, I suppose, but I just don't recall ever meeting a really friendly police officer. I hear people talk about them all the time, so I know they are there and I have some aquantences that are LEOs and they are all great people, but I've just never had a chat with one I didn't know.

Odd Job
March 18, 2011, 03:51 PM
I got pulled over by cops in South Africa whilst riding my bicycle one night. There had been a robbery at a fast food store nearby and shots had been fired. The cops had a witness in the back seat who could ID the shooter, and they wanted a good look at me.
They checked me out, asked what I knew, then let me go on my way. I wouldn't say they were friendly, but then again a South African policeman has a certain abrasive demeanor that comes naturally ;)

xfyrfiter
March 18, 2011, 04:05 PM
A LEO is not looking to strike up a conversation, be your friend etc. when he or she stops you. They have a thankless job to do, and if you, by being courteous and complying with their lawful requests, make the encounter go smoothly, they will usually reciprocate. LEO's usually are only " friends" with other LEO it just makes their job easier in many ways.

NavyLCDR
March 18, 2011, 04:41 PM
A LEO is not looking to strike up a conversation, be your friend etc. when he or she stops you. They have a thankless job to do, and if you, by being courteous and complying with their lawful requests, make the encounter go smoothly, they will usually reciprocate. LEO's usually are only " friends" with other LEO it just makes their job easier in many ways.

Probably one of the, let's say more pleasant, encounters I had:

I was on a well traveled county road. The speed limit was 50 and I had cruise control set at 52. Mazda Miata with the top down. There is a curve where the speed limit drops to 40 with a gas station right in the middle of the curve. I drive this road several times a week, so I know the speed limits. I just forgot to reset my cruise control, come around the curve and there is the sheriff at the gas station, obviously running radar.

I didn't even wait for him to pull out, I put on my hazard lights, took the dirt road on the right, opposite side of the road from the gas station, stopped and waited with my driver's license in hand. He pulled in behind me, and when he came up I handed him my driver's license and said, sorry, I forgot to reset my cruise control. He said, "I'll check this out and let you go." Came back, said thanks for stopping, have a nice day!

forgetitohio
March 18, 2011, 06:55 PM
I know leos are individuals . I was just curious of what other peoples experiances were in the bad experiance with a leo

My home alarm malfuntioned and sent in a silent to the LEO.
I came out of the bathroom and had 2 red dots on my chest.
Then I heard the Police IDing themselves.
Reason for painting me? When they know a homeowner has CCW permit they come in drawn.
Never once asked for my ID; I could have been B&E and know the homeowners name.
I guess I can own 100 guns and be OK but having a CC it makes me a threat.
I still wonder what would have happened if I was walking down my hallway with a gun in my hand for any reason.

SharpsDressedMan
March 18, 2011, 07:28 PM
ForgetitOhio, my take on your incident is that the police probably figured it was you, and were probably "showing off" a bit with the lasers...they probably had no intention of shooting you, figured it was the homeowner, but wanted to let you know how deadly and efficient they were. When cops ARE trained, and well disciplined with gun handling, I can see this sort of police mentality or intent....kind of like flexing their muscles. They accept that citizens are armed, but always want to keep some kind of upper hand. Wonder how they would have reacted to the same being done to them ? (and yes, that does happen, when cops sometimes run into hightly trained security who protect high risk businesses, etc, and the cops aren't ID'd yet):D

sonick808
March 18, 2011, 07:50 PM
I've never been stopped on foot. I used to get stopped weekly for 1mph over when I drove a C5 coupe in 99-05. One local cop specifically hated my guts for no reason. Now that I drive a civic si, i never get pulled over. The times I did get pulled over in Illinois and AZ, I always mention that I have a handgun at the first available moment. I never had problems in Illinois, since it was always empty and in the hatchback compartment. In AZ, they don't even blink. I did have to call the police for an attempted break in of my storage unit, and they were pretty wide-eyed at the collection when they entered my place to reach the balcony. Made no issues about it though :)

gathert
March 19, 2011, 12:14 AM
Drove through the same checkpoint 4 times tonight with my gun in the car and didnt have a problem from any of the 4 cops I talked to each time. Good cops in my area I guess.

JTHunter
March 19, 2011, 03:01 AM
One officer in this particular department tells me to follow him out into the street from private property and to bring my .22 rifle with me. When we get to his cruiser, he informs me that I have broken the law. The lawyer I got failed to inform me that Illinois' draconian gun laws require the defendant first prove they are eligible to use the exemtions to certain "unlawful use of a weapon" charges before they can use those exemptions! :banghead:
Another officer pulled a similar tactic a couple of years later, but I had read up on the law by then. I quoted him "chapter & verse" that this would be a "false arrest" if he persisted. His reply was "I don't care about the law! I'm gonna book you anyway!" A complaint filed with the captain (second in cmd) resulted in them dropping the charges three days later. :evil: :neener:
Both of these LEO's are now off the force. The first was "retired" on a "medical problem" while the second had a nervous breakdown a few months after our interaction and lost his entire career, due to the "mental" designation.
The third officer in this department committed perjury in court and I won the case. Tha galling thing is that neither the SA, the Sheriff's Dept., nor his own department would charge/investigate/discipline this PoS in any way for the perjury, filing a false police report, etc. To this day, he is still on that department's payroll and has even been promoted! :eek:
Either this department needs to find better people or they need some serious retraining!:barf::cuss:

SharpsDressedMan
March 19, 2011, 07:10 PM
Regarding an officer who perjures himself on the stand. In any subsequent arrest that he makes, this can be brought up by the defendent to question/discredit the officer's truth on the stand IF THE DEFENSE KNOWS ABOUT IT. If he truly purjured himself under oath, you could easily post this in the newpaper for the benefit of any future defendent that that officer arrests. It would at least get the attention of his department, and they might fire or otherwise discipline him, even if it is too late to charge him criminally. I believe it is a felony in most states. In Ohio, just about any officer that goes on record with perjury on the stand is probably finished as a cop.

TheGewehrGuy
March 19, 2011, 09:04 PM
Both of my grandpa's and my dad were law enforcement officers. One grandpa would strike up a pleasant gun conversation with someone carrying ("Nice pistol"), my dad doesn't really care, and my other grandpa's actually had a loaded gun pointed at him by a burglar, the trigger was pulled but apparently the ammo was bad or something (An act of god).


I too live in Washington, and typically its hit and miss with cops. Either you get some control-freak, cop with an agenda (about 20%), or you get a guy who just wants to get his check at the end of the month and is more on the libertarian side.

kk0g
March 19, 2011, 10:13 PM
As an LEO, I am all for legal carry of firearms by responsible citizens. I cannot speak for all officers, but what do you think runs through my mind when I receive a call about a person with a gun? Granted, a person going about everyday business in a public place is a drastic difference from an active shooter, but we try the best we can. Typically, the only info we would get from dispatch is "We have a report of a man/woman with at gun at....."

There in lies the problem - you shouldn't be receiving a "report of a man/woman with a gun" in the first place because there is nothing illegal about it.

armoredman
March 19, 2011, 11:38 PM
Never had a bad interaction with AZ law enforcement, the few times I have had to professionally interact with them, it was by the numbers perfect and polite. I also have a fool proof method of not getting stopped while driving, and I'll even forgo the $19.95 fee I would normally charge for this secret - I obey the traffic laws. :) Sorry, couldn't help it. :D

wrs840
March 19, 2011, 11:47 PM
I have only been hassled by a cop over a gun one time, and it was a fat chick at a midnight license-check roadblock on July 4th. They probably had a long night with a lot of drunks to deal with, but I wasn't one of them. 30 minutes later, and one fresh scratch on the hood of my truck from Fatty-Patty slamming my Beretta down on it, I was on my way. It happens.

Steve Raacke
March 20, 2011, 12:10 AM
Some of Ohio law enforcement is poorly trained in the laws regarding open carry, inducing panic, etc. There is currently a project underway to send a packet to every police department in the state with proper citations.
A similar effort is already underway in Louisiana. The Louisiana Open Carry Awareness League (aka LOCAL) has already sent out informational letters/packets to more than a dozen television station news editors, every Sheriff in the 64 Parishes (counties) in La and more than 3 dozen municipal Police Chiefs. We are working on another mailings to a list of over 30 daily and weekly newspapers and more than 200 Police Chiefs, Constables, City Marshals and other law enforcement officials.
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m229/cellblock776/leard3.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m229/cellblock776/localmeet2211b.jpg
http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m229/cellblock776/lealetterb.jpg

NavyLCDR
March 20, 2011, 12:22 AM
A similar effort is already underway in Louisiana. The Louisiana Open Carry Awareness League (aka LOCAL) has already sent out informational letters/packets to more than a dozen television station news editors, every Sheriff in the 64 Parishes (counties) in La and more than 3 dozen municipal Police Chiefs. We are working on another mailings to a list of over 30 daily and weekly newspapers and more than 200 Police Chiefs, Constables, City Marshals and other law enforcement officials.

Don't forget to send one to Steven Seagal! :D

gathert
March 20, 2011, 12:28 AM
If you are not speeding, you are basically under the radar (no pun intended :)) to cops. I've been told that by several and they even said unless you are going 10 or more over you just arent worth their time to pull you over. Handy advice for never having to have cops bother you.

Far East Sig
March 20, 2011, 01:26 AM
I have had a few occasions to occasions to discuss things with LEO while CCW only one worth mentioning for the good. I had run out of gas on the highway (gas guage broken), he pulled up asked about my situation and if I was armed. I told him I was and would be happy to show him my ID and CCW. After asking me to put my hands on my head he removed my Sig from the SOB holster I was wearing, and we talked about how I was going to get some gas. He never even asked to see my CCW permit. He ended up putting my weapon in his trunk and took me to get gas. While I was putting gas in the car he said goodbye, I said thanks and I when I got back in the car, my sig was on the floormat.

Alls well that ends well.

LEO's are human beings just like the rest of us, some good, some bad.

rooter
March 20, 2011, 09:19 AM
One officer in this particular department tells me to follow him out into the street from private property and to bring my .22 rifle with me. When we get to his cruiser, he informs me that I have broken the law. The lawyer I got failed to inform me that Illinois' draconian gun laws require the defendant first prove they are eligible to use the exemtions to certain "unlawful use of a weapon" charges before they can use those exemptions!
Another officer pulled a similar tactic a couple of years later, but I had read up on the law by then. I quoted him "chapter & verse" that this would be a "false arrest" if he persisted. His reply was "I don't care about the law! I'm gonna book you anyway!" A complaint filed with the captain (second in cmd) resulted in them dropping the charges three days later.
Both of these LEO's are now off the force. The first was "retired" on a "medical problem" while the second had a nervous breakdown a few months after our interaction and lost his entire career, due to the "mental" designation.
The third officer in this department committed perjury in court and I won the case. Tha galling thing is that neither the SA, the Sheriff's Dept., nor his own department would charge/investigate/discipline this PoS in any way for the perjury, filing a false police report, etc. To this day, he is still on that department's payroll and has even been promoted!
Either this department needs to find better people or they need some serious retraining!

I find it interesting that this department is so corrupt and has targeted you illegally so many times. Please post or PM me the department info, court of jurisdiction, and case numbers for each instance so I can research this injustice.

It amuses me the number of people who think a contact with a leo should be pleasant, friendly, warm, and inviting. A traffic stop or field contact is not an attempt to make friends, it is business.......and the goal is not to create more business or to make you feel warm and fuzzy.

Many here have such a double standard when it pertains to leo's. When you call for service, they don't do enough and you gripe that they are incompetent and lazy. When they investigate an incident involving you, they do too much and you gripe that they are incompetent and overbearing.

Deanimator
March 20, 2011, 09:53 AM
In response to Navt Lt I was informed I can be charged for creating a public panic for my oc
You were LIED to, full stop.

Read the "inducing panic" statute. Lawful open carry (or in my case inadvertent exposure) doesn't come within a million miles.

In my case I didn't back down an inch. The cop didn't like it but he doesn't need to like the law, merely know and obey it. I wrote the Chief a letter informing him of his officer's ignorance and warning him that if he ever acted on his threats, bad things lay ahead.

You'd better know the law, because you CANNOT expect LEOs to. FAR too many either don't think they need to know it, or simply don't care if they do.

"Inducing panic" is a bunch of hooey which an astonishing number of Ohio LEOs try to foist on the ignorant. Any arrest for it, absent a real criminal act, is a FALSE arrest and actionable.

Oh, and if you're an LEO, bellowing "I know, I'm a cop!" doesn't make bad information good. It just makes you look and sound like a petulant child. That particular LEO lowered my opinion of the Rocky River PD several notches.

Deanimator
March 20, 2011, 10:01 AM
All this talk about inciting a panic by the merely OC'ing in a way that doesn't break any laws seems strange to me. How can a law's application be based on someone else's perception of your actions, rather than your actual actions? Seems like that could not routinely hold up in court.
In Ohio, it CAN'T. "Inducing panic" requires some ACTUAL criminal act.

Anyone who tells you that lawful open carry is a crime in Ohio is ignorant or a liar.

Deanimator
March 20, 2011, 10:11 AM
Well, when your are out and about, you are in a LEO's backyard. When he checks you out to see what you are doing, he has every right to do whatever he has to do to insure his safety, no matter how bad it hurts your feelings or how unfair you think it is.
You're mistaken.

Law, both black letter and precedent, determines what he can and cannot do.

If he has no reasonable, articulable suspicion of a crime which either has been committed, is being committed or is about to be committed, he has no authority to involuntarily "check you out" AT ALL. He can ASK to talk to you, and you have NO duty to engage him. In Ohio, if you're not driving or carrying concealed and he forcibly detains you, other than VERBALLY identifying yourself, you have no duty to speak to him AT ALL, NOR do you have to even HAVE ID.

Police CANNOT just do whatever makes them "feel safe". In fact, sometimes it can be a crime.

V1ROT8
March 20, 2011, 10:46 AM
NavyLT I fly thru Seattle often and would love to patronize the restaurant that you had dinner at that began this topic. This restaurant deserves support for doing what was right. If you could PM me the name and address I would enjoy giving them business. Thanks.

Deanimator
March 20, 2011, 04:19 PM
It is true. They can arrest you for whatever they want. It may not stand up in court but the threat of "you can beat the rap but you can't beat the ride" comes into play. Breach of the peace, or disorderly conduct can be, and are, used in the same way.
That gets expensive after a while, both for the city and for the individual LEO.

In Ohio and Chicago, to name two, cops are NOT indemnified for punitive damages.

I'll gladly take the "ride" to see a bad cop ride the "mare of steel" in civil court.

LEOs who have contempt for the law are worse than no LEOs at all.

RimfireChris
March 20, 2011, 05:04 PM
^^ Pretty much this.

When you are out and about, you are in the LEO's backyard...

Absolutely NOT. He's there to enforce the laws, nothing more.

Canazes9
March 20, 2011, 08:36 PM
"He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to fear..." (Pancho & Lefty, Willy Nelson & Merle Haggard)

While I agree with your logic, too many people feel otherwise.

"he wore is gun outside his pants for all the honest world to FEEL"

Sorry, it's a favorite song of mine....

David

SharpsDressedMan
March 20, 2011, 08:37 PM
The cops heavy with arrest threats and attitude have forgotten who they work for, and that they may not be cops forever. It is NOT a birthright.................

NavyLCDR
March 20, 2011, 09:08 PM
NavyLT I fly thru Seattle often and would love to patronize the restaurant that you had dinner at that began this topic. This restaurant deserves support for doing what was right. If you could PM me the name and address I would enjoy giving them business. Thanks.

The restaurant where my situation happened is in Oak Harbor, on Whidbey Island. About 2 hours from SeaTac. It was Island Cafe on Highway 20 in Oak Harbor.

A firearm friendly restaurant you might like, if you like Italian Food that is close to SEATAC, is Dino's Greek & Italian Restaurant, 17642 1st Ave S, Burien, WA 98148.

Dino's is featured in this youtube video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hh8KW40bjLw

The face with the glasses at the very left edge of the screen at 14 seconds is me.

I know you said to PM you, but positive publicity for these two places can't be a bad thing!

HOOfan_1
March 20, 2011, 09:54 PM
Police CANNOT just do whatever makes them "feel safe". In fact, sometimes it can be a crime.

If violating civil rights makes them feel safe...I bet they would be even safer just taking the badge off all together.


"...the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Don't see anything in that statement about "unless it makes law enforcement feel safe from law abiding citizens"

Don't police officers take an oath to defend the Constitution?

coyotehitman
March 21, 2011, 08:11 PM
If violating civil rights makes them feel safe...I bet they would be even safer just taking the badge off all together.

Wear the badge before you decide when the men and women who sacrifice to keep you safe should take it off. Your statement is ignorant.

"...the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Don't see anything in that statement about "unless it makes law enforcement feel safe from law abiding citizens"

Don't see anything in that statement saying "unless you are a convicted felon" either. Also, during a field contact, how can I instantly differentiate a "law abiding citizen" from a person who is a piece of excrement. What does a "law abiding citizen" look like? Every person is a law abiding citizen at one point in time, until they decide to break the law. I won't be your "first."

This isn't directed toward anyone in particular, it's just an observation. The uninformed and ignorant like to throw around terms like "civil rights violation" and quotes of the second amendment. Others like to pretend they have an army of attorneys on their payroll for the sole purpose of taking action against anyone who has a contact with them that is not favorable. The truth is, most couldn't afford to buy me a cup of coffee and it paints you as an imbecile. From my experience, it is most always the indigent who threaten to file suit. I'm pretty proud that I do not need attorneys to go about my daily life, but I imagine life is difficult living in a world where, in your mind, everyone constantly wrongs you and tramples your rights.

In case you haven't noticed, most of your "rights" can lawfully be infringed.

In Ohio, it CAN'T. "Inducing panic" requires some ACTUAL criminal act.

Here are two of the charges mentioned in this thread. These are the elements of the following crimes. I hope it helps everyone understand how it could/could not relate to open carry.

Here is what O.R.C 2917.31 Inducing Panic requires:

(A) No person shall cause the evacuation of any public place, or otherwise cause serious public inconvenience or alarm, by doing any of the following:

(1) Initiating or circulating a report or warning of an alleged or impending fire, explosion, crime, or other catastrophe, knowing that such report or warning is false;

(2) Threatening to commit any offense of violence;

(3) Committing any offense, with reckless disregard of the likelihood that its commission will cause serious public inconvenience or alarm.


Here is what 2917.11 Disorderly conduct requires (in part):

(A) No person shall recklessly cause inconvenience, annoyance, or alarm to another by doing any of the following:

(1) Engaging in fighting, in threatening harm to persons or property, or in violent or turbulent behavior;

(2) Making unreasonable noise or an offensively coarse utterance, gesture, or display or communicating unwarranted and grossly abusive language to any person;

(3) Insulting, taunting, or challenging another, under circumstances in which that conduct is likely to provoke a violent response;

(4) Hindering or preventing the movement of persons on a public street, road, highway, or right-of-way, or to, from, within, or upon public or private property, so as to interfere with the rights of others, and by any act that serves no lawful and reasonable purpose of the offender;

(5) Creating a condition that is physically offensive to persons or that presents a risk of physical harm to persons or property, by any act that serves no lawful and reasonable purpose of the offender.

HOOfan_1
March 21, 2011, 10:01 PM
Sorry, but wearing a badge doesn't give you the right to think about your protection before others.

So what is my protection against you if I am forced to disarm myself?

you could be this guy for all I know

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_James_Coppola

you could be this guy

http://www.yourhoustonnews.com/courier/news/article_2f61780d-9b80-596e-baab-36f122cb2bf1.html

you could be this guy

http://fedstv.com/Video/Police-Officer-Accused-Of-Robbing-A-Minnesota-Bank-.aspx?bcmediaid=027aef65-ab82-428c-b103-7d8a049f0aac

maybe you haven't read some of the discussion in this thread. We are talking about people who have otherwise been obeying the law, being harassed and or disarmed for no reason other than the police officer wasn't comfortable, with an armed citizen around them. The only counter arguments I have seen so far are by some people who apparently would be perfectly happy to turn our nation into a police state, and think that being a police officer apparently gives them some sort of cart blanche to act as they please. Walking around in a grocery store with a holstered gun is no reason for a cop to come up and just yank the gun out of your holster and threaten arrest, nor is it a reason to start harassing a guy who is obviously peaceably exercising the right to open carry. That is just ignorance of the law by the police.


We have arms to protect ourselves from people like the dirty cops above. We have arms to protect ourselves from government abuse. That is specifically why we have the Second Amendment. I'm pretty sure if some of our founding fathers got a glimpse of some of the "police procedure" discussed in this thread, or people referring to the outside world as a whole, as if it were the property of Law Enforcement to do as they please, just to help make themselves feel safe, well I bet we would have some more Amendments in there.

This entire "we'll arrest them and let the courts decide" tripe doesn't fly either.

Davek1977
March 22, 2011, 05:25 AM
And coyotehitman, how do we, as civilians, know that YOUR intentions are honorable when contacting us? Being victimized by someone with a uniform and a badge isn't exactly unheard of in this day and age. Why is it "OK" for a cop to immediately question someone's integrity and "trustworthiness" but because you wear a badge, we're supposed to "assume' you're "alright"? The fact is.... a very tiny percentage of cops are "dirty' or undeserving of our trust.....but that ALSO goes for the population at large. There is a VERY tiny percentage of the public at large that offers a true threat to the average LEO. So, why is your safety more important than my own? Why do you think wearing a badge makes you more worthy of protection than myself? Why should I, an a law-abiding citizen, be forced to give up my right to safety because you feel yours is somehow threatened by the mere presence of a gun in my possession?

As for making judgments about those who "make the sacrifice" to "keep us safe". I respect law enforcement. i respect firefighters. i respect EMT s, schoolteachers, lawyers, cooks, hotel clerks, janitors, store clerks, construction workers, whoever.....unless they demonstrate they are unworthy of respect, they have mine......but a cop doesn't get any MORE respect based on his or her career choice. There are a lot of thankless, dangerous jobs out there. Your career choice doesn't instantly earn you any more respect than any other man or woman I meet. One's actions, demeanor, and overall personality determine the amount of respect you recieve, not what unifoprm you decide to put on in the morning. I'm n ot saying cops are not generally worthy of respect.....but that worthiness comes from how you DO the job, not simply HAVING the job.


The truth is, most couldn't afford to buy me a cup of coffee Since when does being a cop give you access to bank accounts? You may not like threats of being sued coming your way, but this comment wasn't exactly "High Road" of you, IMO. THIS is why I respect the individual, and not the badge he or she wears. This comment was every bit as ignorant as the comment made suggesting a certain type of officer take off his badge. Why is it you find it perfectly reasonable to call out a certain type of individual, but when its done by someone else, suddenly they are insulting the honorable position of being a police officer? Once again, you seem to have no problem believing in and living by a double standard....

NavyLCDR
March 22, 2011, 11:02 AM
Absolutely +1 Davek1977!!!!

klutchless
March 24, 2011, 12:52 AM
Talked to another sherriff today not one comment about the gun he just asked to see how my dad was doing. I mentioned the incident and I guess the offending LEO is already under investigation but he couldnt tell me any more.

gym
March 26, 2011, 12:28 AM
There are good ad bad in everty line of work. One told me he couldn't shake hands because it was his gun hand, a few weeks ago, meanwhile I called him. Can't fix dumb. Excuse me mr earp.

Dulvarian
March 26, 2011, 04:01 AM
As I have related before, I lived downstairs from the 'courtesy cop apartment' at the complex I lived in for far too long in VA while I was stationed there.

One (a pair, actually) were jerks in the extreme, and I reported their kids for smoking pot on the balcony. Surprisingly, they were gone in a few weeks, and for the last two years that I lived there, the guy that replaced them was a great guy. We would frequently talk. He gave me pointers on better CC (printing). I helped him and his wife with some free upgrades to their computer and got free pizza's from Papa John's from his wife.

My uncle is a regular Barney Fife.

Cops are just people. And some of them are power tripping and more ignorant of the law than the average criminal. But I would dare to assume that at least half of the LEO's out there take their job seriously. They do a pretty thankless job, catch a lot of grief in doing it, day in and day out. I am in no way excusing poor behavior on the part of any LEO anywhere, but if you set the correct tone for the encounter, things will normally go well. Look at the anecdotes posted above. Most people that responded evenly, with civility, only had a problem if the LEO was being an ass. If he is, get his badge number and file a report.

And if you want to be really "High Road", bear that same approach to dealing with everyone. Everyone seems to think that they are immune to any hindrance to their policy of perfection with the universe, and it just ain't so. "Do unto others..." might have been some of the truest words ever spoken, though I am not trying to preach. It's just an observation.

When you do feel that you are harassed and go in to file a complaint, be polite, be civil, and just ask to speak to the highest ranking person there. If you go in screaming and shouting, you set everyone on the defensive (including a LEO making a [probably] justified stop). Be polite. It takes them off guard, and tends to make them more willing to listen.

But as for LEO's being vigilant, wasn't it just a month ago that about a dozen LEO's were gunned down in the span of a week? It is a concern, but one that I think that LE departments need to train better on. So, for all the current and former LEO's, take a look at your training regimen. Is there anything you could do better to help the rest of your brothers and sisters do their job better, safer, and with a little more respect for the people you swore to serve?

It's a two way street here. And I think that responsible gun owners and police should be trying to meet halfway here for the benefit of all. Really.

But, I do have a question for LEO's. I work in a training sensitive area, with a lot of grey area on some things. And I make it a point to let the new guys know where the pitfalls are, and mentor them. I would see this as one of those points that the older, more experienced cops should be talking to the rookies with.

kalash
March 26, 2011, 07:25 PM
I got pulled over once with a target 1911 that had a NM colt slide and barrel. They ran the drawing number on the barrel as the serial number and started hassleing me about having a stolen gun.

Try to explain what a drawing number is!

Grey_Mana
March 26, 2011, 08:41 PM
Google "Ronnie White" and "Prince George" (the county where it happened), to get a sense of how important choosing the right state is, for protecting your civil rights should the cops violate your rights. Note how quick the federal government has been.

By far, the best defense is to avoid the situation (ie pick a good state to live in).

HOOfan_1
March 26, 2011, 09:15 PM
Prince George's...a lot different than Prince George

HorseSoldier
March 26, 2011, 11:19 PM
There is a VERY tiny percentage of the public at large that offers a true threat to the average LEO. So, why is your safety more important than my own?

As a citizen you have the ability to run away when faced with bad people and -- let's be honest here -- the vast majority of people in this world, even people who are ultra pro CCW will do just that in the face of that tiny percentage who are a true threat to safety. That will probably get a lot of people up in arms in this thread, but it's true. Rational, sane people will almost to a man run away, call the police, and leave it to someone else to clean up the mess -- because they're not delusional and don't get paid to get shot at and -- just like LEOs -- want to go home to their families at the end of the day whatever else happens. There are obvious exceptions to that, and my hat is off to private citizens who step up in the face of shooting sprees and the like . . . but they're few and far between even if we limit our sample population to just CCW'ers.

Law enforcement officers give up the right to flee (in a lot of departments that would be both on and off duty). You not only give up the right to flee from such people, you are charged to actively seek them out and apprehend them so society can hold them accountable for their crimes. (And when those people get back out onto the street they may or may not remember their victims or blame them for their troubles, but they never forget who arrested them . . .)

As a private citizen legally carrying a concealed weapon I never, in years and years of carrying routinely every day, ever had occasion to need to draw my weapon on someone. Never had an encounter with a guy with felony warrants looking at me and maybe one other guy as the only reason he was going back into a cage for a long time and very visibly weighing the odds on whether he could kill or incapacitate us and live to party another day. Never had to go find a DV suspect whose wife said the last thing she heard as she was getting the kids out of the house (after he beat the crap out of them all) was her husband loading his M1A. And never had to, day in and day out, roll into situations that were only described as a "disturbance" where you had no idea if you were walking into a verbal argument or a deadly force encounter until you were in the middle of it. As a law enforcement officer that sort of stuff was just routine -- those "tiny percentage" members of the public were a significant chunk of the people I dealt with every day.

Why do you think wearing a badge makes you more worthy of protection than myself?

So, I don't know -- is it wrong that your doctor takes routine precautions against infectious disease, even though you're a perfectly healthy person who thinks it's kind of skeezy and insulting to have a guy examining you while wearing latex gloves? Only a tiny percentage of the population is sick, right? What's the doctor's damage that he treats you like you're a sick person just because you show up in his office for some completely legitimate, non-infectious health issues? Isn't it kind of messed up that a doctor would treat everybody like they might be sick? :rolleyes: I mean you see maybe a sick person every couple weeks or less at work, right? Your doctor's just a paranoid freak who overreacts and sees disease behind every corner -- kind of a wuss, really.

And I'm thinking we shouldn't even get you started on EMTs and paramedics -- when those hypochondriacs show up at accident scenes they act like everyone and their brother has ebola and AIDS. What a bunch of weak willed school girls :scrutiny:.

[Why should I, an a law-abiding citizen, be forced to give up my right to safety because you feel yours is somehow threatened by the mere presence of a gun in my possession?


Because you are? :rolleyes: Again, police wade through that "tiny percentage" of the public day in and day out. You may know you're a law abiding citizen, but when you're contacted by the police they sure don't and the only thing they do know is that you having a gun makes you a much bigger potential threat -- to them, to the public, and even to yourself --than you not having a gun if you are one of those "tiny percentage" folks (almost all of whom unfortunately will have the nerve to lie to your face and tell you they're law abiding citizens, too :rolleyes:). Particularly as the economy goes down the drain, today's suspect trying for suicide by cop was a perfectly law abiding citizen a day or a week ago. Guys who want to survive the job don't do so by giving everyone the benefit of the doubt.

Now there's a right way and a wrong way to approach the whole issue from the LEO side, and I do get it that lots of cops hurt peoples feelings during contacts of one sort or another for the basic reason that people who know they are the good guys feel like the cop(s) treated them like a potential bad guy. Maybe took their gun away. Maybe even put them in handcuffs until everything got sorted out.

But, it's the nature of the beast -- when you have police contact you are, by definition, dealing with people who live in an uglier, messier, and more dangerous world than your own, and even if you're the one who invited them out into your brighter, nicer world where everyone is a law-abiding citizen entitled to everything and a pony ride too, you get to abide by the customs and courtesies from the dark, ugly, messy world you don't have to live in while you're in their company. And it will stay that way until some magical time when society doesn't have to go look for select individuals who are willing to give up their right to run away from danger -- and from having to just live in that filthy world day in and day out -- and rely on its citizenry to somehow self-police themselves. (And I'm personally putting money on that whole communism thing panning out as an economic strategy way before that day rolls around, for better or for worse.)

Deanimator
March 27, 2011, 03:02 AM
So, I don't know -- is it wrong that your doctor takes routine precautions against infectious disease, even though you're a perfectly healthy person who thinks it's kind of skeezy and insulting to have a guy examining you while wearing latex gloves?
That doctor CANNOT take "routine precautions" which violate your legal rights, ESPECIALLY under HIPAA.

Likewise the cop. He can do whatever he wants WITHIN THE CONFINES OF THE LAW and department policy. And do not be mistaken, the law trumps policy, EVERY time.

I don't know that strange cop. For all I know he's the next Jerry Finnegan or Justin Volpe. Am I going to yell at or curse him? No. Am I going to be fawningly obsequious toward him, or worse waive a single legal right I have? Again, NO.

My rule is LETTER OF THE LAW. If the cop doesn't like that and acts out because of it, there are dark days ahead for him.

Davek1977
March 27, 2011, 03:43 AM
+! Deanimator

HorseSoldier
March 27, 2011, 02:56 PM
+2 Deanimator -- I never once said officers have the right to exceed the law. And the law, both broadly and very specifically, outlines various ways in which law enforcement is empowered to inconvenience, search, potentially disarm and potentially detain citizens when there is reasonable suspicion they may be involved in some situation. In the case of the OP, I have a hard time what iffing that scenario to the point where "man observed to be armed with a gun in the vicinity of where a crime had just been committed" would not be considered reasonable grounds to stop, disarm, and detain the citizen while sorting out whether or not he was involved.

HOOfan_1
March 27, 2011, 03:45 PM
Sorry, I don't see how the doctor wearing latex gloves and a mask is at all a relevant analogy in this situation. The doctor is not removing my methods of protection from me when he does that. He is actually heightening my protection.

Sure, anyone wearing a gun is a potential danger to the police. Guess what, the police wearing a gun are also a potential danger against citizens. I believe citizens should have just as much right for self protection against the police as they do against any other person in this country, or as much right to protect themselves from the police, as the police have of protecting themselves against citizens

HorseSoldier
March 27, 2011, 04:03 PM
Sorry, I don't see how the doctor wearing latex gloves and a mask is at all a relevant analogy in this situation. The doctor is not removing my methods of protection from me when he does that. He is actually heightening my protection.

It's completely relevant. Being disarmed by the police during a contact with officers greatly decreases the likelihood you'll be shot by police. Leaving you in possession of a weapon when a subsequent decision to arrest you might be made opens the door for all sorts of badness.

Sure, anyone wearing a gun is a potential danger to the police. Guess what, the police wearing a gun are also a potential danger against citizens. I believe citizens should have just as much right for self protection against the police as they do against any other person in this country, or as much right to protect themselves from the police, as the police have of protecting themselves against citizens

First of all, the police are not armed for self-defense from the public. They are armed because their authority for use of force to defend the public and maintain public order includes the use of deadly force when appropriate. That includes self-defense of officers but is in no way exclusively for that purpose. As such police officers are armed, and when being armed operate under a very different set of laws and guidelines, than a private citizen CCW'ing.

Second, good luck with that if it ever turns out to be your defense in a court of law.

HOOfan_1
March 27, 2011, 04:32 PM
Most of this thread has been talking about people breaking no laws being harassed. One post in this thread described a trooper sneaking up behind him and physically taking his gun out of the holster, while he was doing nothing no more harmful than walking around in a store. I described seeing California Game wardens disarming people while searching their camp for violations even though they had no reason to suspect they had broken the law. What you are describing is an officer with enough probable cause to do a search. That is a lot different than a cop sneaking up behind a guy in a store and taking his weapon, for no other reason than the cop is ignorant of the laws in his state.

I wish there would be a day we could trust everyone who wore a badge. That day isn't today, it won't be tomorrow either, it won't be ever. My opinion is that law enforcement is given way too much latitude and unilateral power.


What you are describing sounds nothing like the country our founding fathers intended this to be. Then again...what you are describing is the country that we have. Hey, Lincoln trampled all over John Merryman's Constitutional rights and Lincoln has a national holiday in his honor.

Also, the alternative to defending my actions in a court of law is lying on a slab in a morgue.

Hunter2678
March 27, 2011, 04:35 PM
Klutchless ...are you gettin all that hassle over there in London?...:confused:

HorseSoldier
March 27, 2011, 06:11 PM
What you are describing is an officer with enough probable cause to do a search.

Note that I'm not defending all the actions described in this thread. But also note that Reasonable Suspicion, the legal standard under which an officer can detain and disarm someone during a contact, and Probable Cause are two different things, and Reasonable Suspicion is a lower standard.

California Fish and Wildlife agents, for instance, operating in an area where poaching and drug activity was frequent would have Reasonable Suspicion that persons they contacted in that area might be involved in such activities and would be justified in detaining those persons, searching them for officer safety purposes, and disarming them during the contact -- even if there was no PC developed that justified charging them with a crime from that contact.

S.W.G.
March 27, 2011, 06:16 PM
I got pulled over once with a target 1911 that had a NM colt slide and barrel. They ran the drawing number on the barrel as the serial number and started hassleing me about having a stolen gun.

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

They ran (what they thought was) the serial number!?

What was their excuse for doing that? I would never consent to a police officer running one of my guns through a database.

Did they ask you? Or did they just run it through?

If they did the latter I would hire a lawyer the second the traffic stop is over.

mgregg85
March 27, 2011, 06:24 PM
I've only had good experiences with the LEO's, I guess I've been lucky so far. Even got into a discussion with one very nice officer about the SUB-2000 that was in the backseat of my car.

The only questionable encounter i've had was with a Michigan DNR officer. He was looking for some guys riding quads illegally, my friends and I were having a little fire and relaxing and I had my Mini-14(20 round mag, empty chamber) next to my chair and my XD-45 on my belt. He didn't notice the mini-14 at first while he was questioning us but when he did he almost jumped back and said angrily "Why do you have a rifle?!". I just said "because I can" and he let it go at that but he still seemed nervous about it.

howlnmad
March 28, 2011, 04:15 PM
In my line of work (transportation) I encounter LEOs of multiple levels, whether it be highway patrol, sheriff, local or motor vehicle inspectors. Any time I am approached I always show my permit and only once was I informed that it was policy to disarm me while performing the stop. I had no problem with it and he returned it, empty, along with my paperwork and ticket. Others have just asked the location of the weapon and went about their duty.

kalash
March 29, 2011, 03:00 AM
Whoa, whoa, whoa.

They ran (what they thought was) the serial number!?

What was their excuse for doing that? I would never consent to a police officer running one of my guns through a database.

Did they ask you? Or did they just run it through?

If they did the latter I would hire a lawyer the second the traffic stop is over.


I've never been asked for permission from a police officer. I've been pulled over 5-6 times for mostly speeding and 3/4 of the time they take the gun to "run the numbers" to "see if it was reported stolen" a couple times they did not even take the gun from me.

I did not know you could protest them from running a number, I always figured it was what they "always" do.

There was actually a bit more to that night, the woman that pulled me over did not know how to clear a 1911 and while trying to fiddle with it pointed a loaded 1911 in the general direction of me and the car, I said something about it and she then gave up and set the pistol on the hood of her car until backup arrived (10 minutes or so) to clear the pistol. I said something to the other police officer about it.

All in all it was 20-30 minutes all for a brake light that was out.

HOOfan_1
March 29, 2011, 01:33 PM
My 1911 clears like pretty much ever single other automatic handgun I have shot...even my Walther P38. Only difference is that the magazine release on the P38 is on the bottom of the grip. Was that police department still using revolvers?

MD_Willington
March 29, 2011, 02:13 PM
Once, he asked what I was carrying, replied S&W 5906, said he liked the S&W better than the Glock he had... No problems!

kalash
March 29, 2011, 03:24 PM
They use glocks.

Her problem was racking the slide, she did not know that the safety locked the slide. She was just tugging and tugging on the slide.

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