pics of ACOG + side mounted aimpoint


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Motega
March 15, 2011, 10:50 PM
I'd like to see pics of how an aimpoint rides on one of the LaRue or similar side mounts. I'm thinking about putting one on the setup I'm doing with the FAL. The Aimpoint would be great for messing around with up-close shots- I think even the TA-11 ACOG would be hard to grab close up shots quickly.
If you have this setup on a FAL all the better but I'd like to get an idea of how it rides on any setup. Thanks!!!

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henschman
March 15, 2011, 11:22 PM
I tend to think this is a little redundant with an ACOG, since the ACOG is designed to simulate a non-magnified red dot when used with both eyes open. It's what they call the "bindon aiming concept," and is aka "occluded eye aiming." It's one of the reasons the ACOG has a big fat bright aiming point. I would think that method is as good as holding your rifle sideways "homeboy style" with no cheek weld and using offset sights. It works fine for me with my 5.5x ACOG, so it should work even better with a 3.5x.

For a magnified optic that you can't do occluded eye aiming with, I can see how the offset red dot might be a good idea though, for emergency close quarters shooting where precision doesn't matter so much. A lot of guys who play the 3-gun game really like that setup, either with irons or a red dot offset.

HorseSoldier
March 16, 2011, 01:32 AM
Yeah -- you should probably try running the TA11 and seeing how fast that handles unless you just want to spend money for the tacticool effect. With the TA31 I was running before I got off active duty I could match or beat guys running AimPoints on speed with some practice.

It's what they call the "bindon aiming concept," and is aka "occluded eye aiming."

BAC is two eyes open. Occluded Eye sights mean one eye is staring into a covered/closed optic, seeing a red dot and superimposing it in your perception over what the un-occluded eye is seeing. You can shoot an ACOG as an OEG, but it's not necessary and putting a cap over the ACOG undermines your ability to transition to distant targets rapidly, which is kind of the point of the ACOG in the first place.

Motega
March 16, 2011, 09:47 AM
The ACOG I'm putting on this FAL is the TA11J-308- the .308 calibrated crosshair version- and it has 3.5X vs. 3X but has a much wider FOV. Would this change your opinion? Tacticool holds no importance for me, in fact I'd like to draw as little attention as possible at the range because I'd rather be shooting than socializing. But I would also like to shoot targets quickly on my little range at our hunting camp at 30 yards.
The difference is like $700 when considering the mount which would be a reallllly cool little 10/22 upgraded with lots of stuff or get me 1/3rd of the way to that F-Class savage on my radar. BUT I like to do things right and this FAL is being put together as my go-to rifle.
If anyone knows where there are pics of this setup I'd like to see it just to get a mental picture of what I'd be dealing with.

marksman13
March 16, 2011, 10:52 AM
No need for both. By the time your brain processed that the target was close enough to use the Aimpoint and you adjust, you could have just taken the shot with the ACOG. Short range rapid fire with the ACOG is a breeze. That said, it's your gun. Do what you want with it.

Dionysusigma
March 16, 2011, 04:35 PM
My personal experience with the A4 and TA31RCO matches the following links almost perfectly; that is to say, the opposite of what has been said in this thread so far.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binocular_vision#Singleness_of_vision

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34549

ny32182
March 16, 2011, 04:46 PM
I tried using a TA11 as a "red dot" up close recently, and didn't feel like it worked well at all for me. I did not have a cover on it.

henschman
March 16, 2011, 05:18 PM
There is a minority of the population whose eyes will not work that way, and for whom the BAC/occluded eye shooting method won't work for. It works fine for me. POI is off somewhat from my normal zero, but it is close enough for hits on man-sized targets at close range.

Bartholomew Roberts
March 16, 2011, 07:04 PM
I know we've talked about this before; but here is the link again to a TA11/offset T1 setup on an AR15:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=385824

I tend to think this is a little redundant with an ACOG, since the ACOG is designed to simulate a non-magnified red dot when used with both eyes open. It's what they call the "bindon aiming concept," and is aka "occluded eye aiming."

What you describe are two slightly different methods of shooting that both rely on how our brains process binocular vision. The Bindon Aiming Concept provides a high contrast reticle in a magnified scope. The idea is you shoot with both eyes open and your weak eye sees the unmagnified image clearly while your dominant eye sees a blurry magnified image and a bright dot. Trying to make sense of it, your brain superimposes the bright dot over the unmagnified view until you stop moving the scope and the image becomes clearer.

An Occluded Eye Gunsight uses the same concept, except instead of a magnified scope. There is just a reticle - you can't actually see through it with your dominant eye. Sometimes people whose eyes can't do to BAC will use a flip cover on their ACOG and use the sight as an OEG with the cover closed.

This can be very fast, especially up close; but it is dependent on a number of eyesight issues. Also because the angle between the reticle and the eye seeing the target is changed, you'll get changes in point of impact. At close range, not a big issue if you maintain a good cheek weld; but get sloppy in your cheek weld or open the distance and you'll see the problem.

Standing still, you can use an ACOG by itself very fast. Where it gets tricky is if you need to shoot while moving or shoot frrom non-traditional positions; because you still have to be able to see the dot and have a good cheek weld to use either BAC or OEG. In both of those cases, the Aimpoint is usually faster.

I would think that method is as good as holding your rifle sideways "homeboy style" with no cheek weld and using offset sights.

Actually, that is one of the nice things about the Larue mount and offset sights. You don't roll the rifle sideways to shoot. You just cant it a tiny bit and the Aimpoint is right there in your field of view with your cheek still on the stock. See the pictures in the link above and you'll have a better idea of what I am talking about.

And unlike BAC, the offset T1 still has utility past 15yds or so.

By the time your brain processed that the target was close enough to use the Aimpoint and you adjust, you could have just taken the shot with the ACOG.

Most people who get a "surprise shot" that requires a quick reaction will just use whatever optic they are on, regardless of the distance. However, where it makes a difference is if I step from a 300m firing line into a shoot house, I can just cant the rifle and start working.

The problems I having with the offset T1 right now are:

1. Sighting in an offset mount is a bit of a pain because you get elevation and windage changes no matter which knob you use.

2. I've got my T1 bottomed out and am still 4-5" high at 50yds, which is where I would like it zeroed. I could get the 50yd zero; but I have to move the LT-724 mount back on the receiver, which means relearning a new cheek weld for the ACOG after 8+ years (i.e. not likely). On the other hand, I'm pretty much dead on at 15-20yds, where I would mostly use the T1 anyway.

3. My eyes are getting older and I miss the magnification. The T1 is also slightly darker.

4. After having the ACOG with its automatic brightness adjustment via fiber optic for so long, it is a bit of a pain to always be adjusting brightness. When the T1 is too bright, it loses its dot shape for me, which makes aiming at anything not right there in front of me problematic for my eyes.

5. Shooting suppressed gets you a faceful of gas out of the ejection port vents in the BCG with the rifle canted to use the T1.

marksman13
March 16, 2011, 11:44 PM
I guess I was looking at it from a combat perspective, not from a competition perspective. I can see the merits of the system if you are going from one drill to another in a structured environment.

In a life or death situation I'd rather have one optic to worry about. Less thinking and less maintenance.

henschman
March 16, 2011, 11:46 PM
Bartholomew,

With occluded eye aiming, your eye doesn't necessarily have to be occluded by a scope cover... on an ACOG, your scope-side eye is occluded by the fact that its vision is magnified. Bindon is one specific way of doing occluded eye aiming. They just wanted to come up with a cool name for it.

That looks like a neat setup on the AR in your link... if it doesn't need to be canted that much and you can still get good cheek weld, I can see it working really well. OK, you changed my mind! Go ahead and try it OP, and let us know how it goes for you! :D

JDMorris
March 16, 2011, 11:50 PM
I shoot an AR-15 with an TA-11 on it weekly, and I like it, but I'm crossed dominant as far as eyesight, so I can't always shoot with two eyes open, but when I can I like it, but when I build an AR it'll be a 20" or 18" with a 1-4 optic.

ny32182
March 17, 2011, 12:49 AM
Two optics will put you into Open in 3gun, is that correct?

Justin
March 17, 2011, 02:47 AM
Yes, for the purposes of shooting 3 gun, two optics on the rifle will put you in Open Class.

For Tactical Class, there are a couple of different options. For people who run a fixed-magnification scope like an ACOG, you can use the Bindon concept, a flip down scope cover to shoot the scope as an OEG, or a set of offset iron sights like the ones made by Dueck Defense or JP Enterprises.

A lot of Tactical shooters are running variable-power scopes like the Schmidt und Bender Short Dot 1-4.

There has been some industry movement in the direction of creating scopes that are capable of 1-6x or 1-8x, and I suspect these scopes will become fairly popular for 3 gun in the next 2-3 years.

Sent from my Android smart phone using Tapatalk.

jotto
March 17, 2011, 05:08 AM
If this was mentioned already my mistake for not catching it. But if you have to have a magnified ACOG and a red dot there are ACOG's with a mini red dot mounted on top of it for your consideration.

Bartholomew Roberts
March 17, 2011, 11:19 AM
I guess I was looking at it from a combat perspective, not from a competition perspective.

Well, I would think that if you are patrolling and take fire from some buildings and go from open field to clearing those buildings, the same concept would apply. The Larue LT-724 mount was originally designed at the request of some outfit that needed an offset mount compatible with a gas mask. I'm guessing they weren't competition shooters; but since I am not in that outfit, I couldn't tell you what specific use they have for it or why. I can just tell you how it is working for me.

With occluded eye aiming, your eye doesn't necessarily have to be occluded by a scope cover...

Poor reading on my part. I saw the "Occluded Eye" part and immediately started thinking of the old Armson OEG that Trijicon still sells. So I thought you were confusing that sight with the ACOG; but yes - same concept for all of them.

But if you have to have a magnified ACOG and a red dot there are ACOG's with a mini red dot mounted on top of it for your consideration.

The issue there is that the red dot sits very high over the bore and in order to see it, you have to learn two different cheek welds. Not a big deal for the red dot, since it isn't as dependent on a solid cheekweld; but it is a big deal for the ACOG. Some people still do well with that system; but I like the offset mount because it uses the same cheekweld and it has the same height over bore as the ACOG and irons.

I find that simpler and less training intensive (and now that I have less time to spend learning more complex stuff, I am very big on simple, instinctive stuff).

Zerodefect
March 17, 2011, 01:16 PM
Just dont get a TA-11 ACOG.

Get a Trijicon 1-4x, or 1.25-4x Accupoint. Maybe mount a Tirjicon RMR on the side of the scope tube or in a 45 mount far down on your railed handguard.

Nightforce makes a great 1-4x as well.

Justin
March 17, 2011, 02:16 PM
If you get a 1-4x scope, there's really no need to have a separate offset non-magnified optic.

Also, so far as I'm aware, the Accupoint scopes aren't available with a BDC reticle, which is kind of a shame, since they're a great scope.

henschman
March 17, 2011, 02:38 PM
And then there's always the ELCAN Specter DR. It costs more than the TA-11 and the T-1 combined, but you can switch from a 4x magnified optic to an unmagnified red dot with the throw of a lever. It also has a the same type of BDC/rangefinding reticle as the ACOG, and also has a little Dragunov-style height-based ranging curve down in the corner of the reticle. They are rough and tough like the ACOG, too. However, they do rely on batteries for illumination and are on the heavy side. But I have played with one, and really liked it.

Justin
March 17, 2011, 04:57 PM
The ELCAN scopes are neat. I'd really like to get my hands on one for testing.

rugerdude
March 17, 2011, 10:41 PM
This is my M4A1 in Afghanistan. I'm a Recon Marine, and as far as I know we're the only Marine unit issued the Larue offset mount and the micro T-1. I guess that MARSOC might have them as well.

Anyway, I really like this system. In my mind it isn't so much for people who are mainly concerned with distance shots who also want to take close ones, as it is for those who intend to shoot close, but may have to shoot far.

I use the T-1 as my primary optic, so there's not really an "oh crap" optic switch for close range targets, and if the target is far then the shot is going to take a little longer anyway.

I find canting the rifle to use the aimpoint really natural and comfortable as well. I have mine mounted really far forward (any further forward and it interferes with my peq-16) to reduce the perceived size of the dot, but most guys mounted it just in front of the ACOG and at least one guy with a Horus Vision scope mounted it behind the scope.

Zeroing is pretty straight-forward as long as you're canting the gun properly on the rest. It doesn't mess with how you adjust at all.

I also use occluded eye aiming (didn't know it had a name) sometimes with the ACOG by putting the "honeycomb" on the end with tape over it, but past 15 to 20 yards, the POI/POA difference becomes severe, and it's not practical to be messing with the ACOG all the time in a real life situation.

marksman13
March 17, 2011, 11:00 PM
To each his own I suppose. I never found the ACOG very difficult to use while clearing buildings. I can see the merits of the system it's just not something I would want. I think I would just prefer a 1-4 power optic of some type.

Motega
March 17, 2011, 11:03 PM
Exactly what I needed to see. Thanks for taking the time to write and post the pic. I think just the ACOG is going to be fine for me. And thanks for your service - every day I'm grateful for the people in our armed forces... as a teacher we say the pledge and listen to the national anthem every morning and I make damn sure my students are quietly facing the flag and doing nothing else for those few minutes every day. Thanks again and God bless.

Zak Smith
March 19, 2011, 12:46 AM
Here's the closest I have for a picture
http://demigodllc.com/photo/CAV17/smaller/A100_0488_img.jpg (http://demigodllc.com/photo/CAV17/?small=A100_0488_img.jpg)

Motega
March 19, 2011, 10:53 AM
Wow, neat looking rifle! Is that a duracoat finish? Looks very reptilian.

Zak Smith
March 19, 2011, 08:58 PM
It's actually Aluma-Hyde II. I would recommend Duracoat or Cerakote for a more durable finish.

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