Red Jacket Gator Kill Stick


PDA






Lou McGopher
March 16, 2011, 10:35 PM
Those who have seen the episode:
Any thoughts on this thing?
At first I was a bit skeptical on .410 birdshot for the caliber, but it seemed to do the trick.
Does that qualify as a SBS, or do ya think they put some rifling in there?
That trigger mechanism doesn't look terribly safe to me. Seems like a good way to have a ND.

If you enjoyed reading about "Red Jacket Gator Kill Stick" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Dr.Rob
March 16, 2011, 10:46 PM
Suspect it would be an NFA AOW. Registered, transferred as a shot barreled shotgun.

Zundfolge
March 16, 2011, 10:49 PM
I suspect either its an AOW ($5 tax stamp not $200 SBS) or they rifled the barrel a bit so its just a handgun (like the Judge).

deadeye1
March 16, 2011, 11:00 PM
I have a bang stick that shoots a .44 Mag round. You dont have to have any permit or register it. Look up Bud's bang sticks. A lot better than that Red Jacket thing.

daorhgih
March 16, 2011, 11:05 PM
We used a contraption the SeaBees worked up for us, using .45 ACP and a center-punch in a tube with a sturdy handle. Sure worked. Dao.

J_McLeod
March 16, 2011, 11:10 PM
I only saw the previews, but wouldn't a .44 mag revolver be cheaper and more effective?

LHRGunslinger
March 16, 2011, 11:14 PM
I only saw the previews, but wouldn't a .44 mag revolver be cheaper and more effective?

The .44 mag would be cheaper yes, but with the alligators you're worried about damaging the belly side of the hide and the .44 mag would punch through that like a hot knife through butter.

When I saw this contraption all I could think of was "Zip Gun".

J_McLeod
March 16, 2011, 11:18 PM
The .44 mag would be cheaper yes, but with the alligators you're worried about damaging the belly side of the hide and the .44 mag would punch through that like a hot knife through butter.

When I saw this contraption all I could think of was "Zip Gun".
I hadn't considered that, and didn't watch the show, but there are lots of options. .357, .38 spl, Taurus Judge, custom loaded ammo, etc. I just don't understand the need for a kill stick.

crossrhodes
March 16, 2011, 11:21 PM
I'd just by a Judge or go the cheaper route and use a good old fashion bang stick with the push button safety.

jerkface11
March 16, 2011, 11:23 PM
I just don't understand the need for a kill stick.

It allows you some stand off distance from a rather dangerous animal while allowing the gun to contact the critter so you don't miss.

J_McLeod
March 16, 2011, 11:26 PM
It allows you some stand off distance from a rather dangerous animal while allowing the gun to contact the critter so you don't miss.
How about a rifle? Lot's of caliber options

Lou McGopher
March 16, 2011, 11:31 PM
The angle at which you have to hold your wrist for that thing.... just seems like it would be better to have a regular pistol grip on something like the Judge (it is good for something, after all). It's about the same length, and can't be any heavier. But more than anything, that trigger doesn't seem very smart.

Lou McGopher
March 16, 2011, 11:33 PM
How about a rifle? Lot's of caliber optionsI think the hunters wanted something short for up-close work. They often use .22 rifles, like the 10/22, but the hunter on the show said sometimes the gator thrashes around a while even after being hit with that. Seems like a .410 to the skull doesn't leave anything untouched inside.

J_McLeod
March 16, 2011, 11:36 PM
I think the hunters wanted something short for up-close work. They often use .22 rifles, like the 10/22, but the hunter on the show said sometimes the gator thrashes around a while even after being hit with that. Seems like a .410 to the skull doesn't leave anything untouched inside.
Jerkface11 said a kill stick would allow stand off distance but a rifle would be too long? Not trying to be rude, I just still don't see the need for it with all of the options one can buy off the rack.

russ69
March 16, 2011, 11:40 PM
Yeah, I'm with the rest of you guys, a Judge sounds like the safer option.

GRIZ22
March 16, 2011, 11:40 PM
I just don't understand the need for a kill stick.

I can't either, at least for the purposes they designed it for.

I've used bang sticks diving. My observations, and those of people with a lot more expertise than I, is that the gas expansion from the powder charge does more damage than the projectile in a bang stick.

jbr
March 16, 2011, 11:41 PM
Surely i can hit a gator with a pistol at 10 yards or more! i'm not planning on getting close enough to put anything on his head - but dirt after the fact.

roadchoad
March 16, 2011, 11:44 PM
Watch Swamp People sometime. They just use a .22wmr rifle to do the same thing. Not sure why they need this, other than ratings.

daorhgih
March 16, 2011, 11:47 PM
"Ratings" is the operative word. Just like "Best Shot" and "Man-tracker." Red Jacket is all fluffed up, with melodrama higher than Oprah, and jargon deeper than R.Lee Ermey. The only thing missing is "Cumley." It's made to attract by flash&bang, and to sell to advertisers who think it's in their niche. The last episode I watched ... and I do mean the LAST episode I watched, they were making a silenced 12-ga, sort of hush-hush (Melodrama, y'know), and it used the same technique many folks used to use in silencing SKS's for sniper use. Simple. Takes a carbide drill-bit, gas-pipe, brass grommets and aluminum spacers. Go figger it out. This was twenty years ago. Still works, wet or dry, so I hear. Dao.

Triphammer
March 16, 2011, 11:51 PM
Will the killstick work with the head submerged like a bangstick? If not, then a pistol gripped rifle or "cruiser" shotgun in 410 seems the right answer. In "Swamp People" nobady gets close enough for a contact shot.

J_McLeod
March 16, 2011, 11:51 PM
A week or two ago they had an episode about making a 'master key', and M16/saiga combination. Looked very unwieldy, and like they were reinventing the wheel. I'm sure it's been done before. I would not use a saiga for that.

Double Naught Spy
March 16, 2011, 11:55 PM
I just don't understand the need for a kill stick.
I can't either, at least for the purposes they designed it for.

The version on the show appears to be stupidly short. I predict somebody will be losing an arm due to being bitten while trying to deploy it.
http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/sons-of-guns-videos/

Not in the show, but customers somewhere down the line.

J_McLeod
March 17, 2011, 12:00 AM
The version on the show appears to be stupidly short. I predict somebody will be losing an arm due to being bitten while trying to deploy it.
http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/sons-of-guns-videos/

Not in the show, but customers somewhere down the line.
watched the video. That is stupidly short. Just get a Judge.

Shadow 7D
March 17, 2011, 12:26 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powerhead
I don't get it
why are they reinventing the wheel??

sub-moa
March 17, 2011, 12:35 AM
I'm shocked :what:...

An idiotic show featuring class A idiots :barf:...

KodiakBeer
March 17, 2011, 12:47 AM
An idiotic show featuring class A idiots ...

Wouldn't those be Class III idiots?

Lou McGopher
March 17, 2011, 01:08 AM
Jerkface11 said a kill stick would allow stand off distance but a rifle would be too long? I think it's a matter of getting the length just right. They're holding the gun one-handed most of the time, and they get close enough to make sure they don't shoot the gator in the wrong place. I do think for the length they made it that they'd be better off with a Judge. Any longer, or at further distances, stick with a short rifle, being that they are above water when they fire the thing.

An idiotic show featuring class A idiotsI think the show is a mix of good and dumb. The glorified rocket launcher that's supposed to scare off pirates is dumb. But when they stick to rifles and suppressors, I think it's pretty good.

Dan Forrester
March 17, 2011, 01:10 AM
I am pretty sure at least in Florida you “legally” have to use a “bang stick” when alligator hunting. A bang stick is basically just a pole with a powerhead on it. When you buy a powerhead it will have a rod welded onto it to bring it over 3 or 4 feet long (forgot the length). After screwing it onto a pole or spear of your choice and welding it on you can cut off the rod. A powerhead by its self with the rod cut off and not permanently affixed to another pole would be an AOW. I’ve seen these powerheads for sale from .22lr on up to .50 BMG. From what I’ve been told they are just as effective when loaded with blanks as they are with live ammo. The slug doesn’t do anything; it’s the expanding gas being injected into the animal which makes it so deadly. Anyone can buy one through the mail shipped directly to your house. Here’s a couple links.

http://www.budsbangsticks.com/

http://www.beco-products.com/beco_catalog.htm

Dan

Lou McGopher
March 17, 2011, 01:49 AM
Maybe they should use a captive bolt gun. :)

RevolvingGarbage
March 17, 2011, 01:51 AM
Just watched the episode. I think they did an O.k job of making what they were going for: a hand held bangstick. The "trigger" seemed a bit unsafe/unreliable for something an alligator trapper is supposed to use while dealing with a big rolling gator.

I agree, a .410 revolver would be much better suited to the job.

Dr.Rob
March 17, 2011, 02:11 AM
Looks to me like they made a .410 zip gun/pen gun which is an AOW by any stretch.

I was under the impression most bangsticks/powerheads can use ONLY blanks and there fire are not 'firearms'. Kind of like a Hiltie nail gun.

I agree it looked unwieldy, but it certainly worked.

Giterboosted
March 17, 2011, 03:35 AM
Theres actually a store near me w a .357 mag one, been there for quite a while as we aren't nest any swamps or oceans for diving, but it seems to be much better engineered than theirs.....

Sam1911
March 17, 2011, 08:45 AM
Wouldn't those be Class III idiots
Technically Class 02, not 03. Manufacturers (SOT 2), not dealers (SOT 3).

geekWithA.45
March 17, 2011, 09:53 AM
The correct answer of course, is Howdah pistol. ;)

Dewey 68
March 17, 2011, 10:31 AM
Watch Swamp People sometime. They just use a .22wmr rifle to do the same thing. Not sure why they need this, other than ratings.
Most of the time it's a .22 long rifle. One episode they got a .22WMR for "Godzilla" I think they called it, but most of them look like they use Marlin 60's.

Zundfolge
March 17, 2011, 12:18 PM
Looks to me like they made a .410 zip gun/pen gun which is an AOW by any stretch.
That's what I was thinking, unless there's a bit of rifling (which is what keeps the Judge from being an AOW). That or the kill stick falls into some obscure category of firearm since its actually an animal harvesting tool.

At any rate, Will seems to be a pretty savvy businessman and also well versed in NFA red tape BS so I'm guessing that either its NOT an NFA item or he knew in advance that the gater hunters don't mind paying the feds $5 and waiting several months for the paperwork to go through.

My limited experience with Cajun folk says the gun's not NFA because they wouldn't deal with the feds for any reason.

I also suspect that hunting gators with handguns is verboten or otherwise heavily regulated and that's why they'd want this kill stick over a Judge (or maybe these kill sticks are only going to cost $100 or so).

Kinda wish they had some sort of Q&A or forum on the Discovery site where one could ask such questions.

forgetitohio
March 17, 2011, 12:33 PM
There was a show on on last yr. about gator "fishing"
They shot gators with a .22.
They seemed to know where the kill shot was.

saltydog452
March 17, 2011, 01:05 PM
The Aussies used to have/use a bang stick for divers to use harvesting shark meat. No barrel, just a chamber.

Google 'bang stick' or 'power head'.

Its legal here. The gas does the work, not the solid bullet. I suspect there are some critters that live in the water that you'd want to make dang sure it was dead right there before you bring it onto the boat.

Its a contact weapon so no one is waving a side arm or shoulder arm around in the boat.

Laws change. What was OK then might not be OK today.

salty

KodiakBeer
March 17, 2011, 01:15 PM
How did you guys feel about them taking an extremely rare mint condition un-assembled original 1942 M2 and engraving "Red Jacket Firearms" on the side during the build? It made me vomit a little...

razorback2003
March 17, 2011, 01:27 PM
It looked like the M2 was a parts kit that lacked some finishing and could have been turned into a semi or auto. Since this Red Jacket is a Title II manufacturer, he was able to turn it into the real thing. Nice to turn the parts kit into a working model.

I am glad to see shows like this and Top Shot put firearms on mainstream TV. Yes, some of it is a little silly, but it does get our hobby, sport, and our rights out there and legitimate instead of being seen as something only criminals possess. It is also nice that even people are coming into the store and buying Title II firearms, like suppressors, showing to the public that these are legal with the proper paperwork.

I wouldn't stick my hand that close to a gator with that short bang stick! I'd want to be a ways back with a rifle. I can see how the short bang stick is helpful, but I like my hands!

KodiakBeer
March 17, 2011, 01:41 PM
It looked like the M2 was a parts kit that lacked some finishing and could have been turned into a semi or auto. Since this Red Jacket is a Title II manufacturer, he was able to turn it into the real thing. Nice to turn the parts kit into a working model.

Yeah, but to take that rare vintage firearm and put a Red Jacket billboard on the side shows lack of taste.

steven58
March 17, 2011, 02:03 PM
Back in the mid 70s we used to use powerheads to hunt giant grouper with spear guns in the waters between the Florida keys and Cuba.

we used .223 reloads filled with pistol powder that had plastic plugs instead of bullets and sealed the primers with nail polish.

The powerhead was maybe 1/2" to 1" longer than the OAL of a normal round and had a pull ring safety that blocked a fixed firing pin that was held away from the round by a spring. It screwed directly on to the shaft of the spring steel spear in the case of a spear gun. It can also be used on the end of a 6' to 8' hand spear made of fiberglass and the back end has a captive loop of thick surgical rubber tubing tied to it.

To use the hand spear you pull the safety pin out, place the rubber band loop in your firing hand, pull back the hand spear grabbing it short of the tip with the rubber band in the firing hand, point it at the target and let go.

It will "punch out to (underwater) the length of the spear. Normally it's used with a barbed tip for fish up to a certain size and powerheads for big fish / shark defense.

There was a hollow bungee corded 3 sectional one that you could carry in a thigh holster for shark defense. I saw one used that blew a 8' hammer head almost in half (same .223 load as above)

For gators I could see using a powerhead on a 2-3' hand spear in .22 hornet using hot handloaded blanks with a foam plug. That would be deadly on contact but relatively safe as you got more than a foot away and certainly would not puncture a boat or provide a ricochet.

instead of a trigger I'd stick with impact ignition as I think it's safer.

Lou McGopher
March 17, 2011, 04:24 PM
instead of a trigger I'd stick with impact ignition as I think it's safer.

From the previews, i got the impression that's what they were gonna do.

Kingofthehill
March 17, 2011, 05:31 PM
Id much rather have a captive bolt system with a 2-4 feet of barrel to keep my hand away from the gator.

Not to mention the angle of which it has to be fired looks very awkward. So bad that he didn't even use the plexiglass shield that he wasted time building.

Kingofthehill
March 17, 2011, 05:33 PM
Oh, and the Alligator looked dead or near dead by the time they approached him. No fight in him like the other show on Discovery channel "Swamp People"

Im also surprised that they blurred out the kill when the show swamp people they show it unedited.

JOe

boogity8k
March 17, 2011, 07:15 PM
Wouldn't a snake charmer work ?

Double Naught Spy
March 17, 2011, 08:58 PM
Yeah, but to take that rare vintage firearm and put a Red Jacket billboard on the side shows lack of taste.

Naw, it just shows that your tastes and their tastes are not the same. It could equally well be argued that to fire a rare, vintage, "virgin" (their use of the word) firearm such as the M2 is without taste as well. Depending on your perspective, shooting such an unfired gun is a huge negative. It just depends on whose tastes we are talking about.

Average Joe
March 17, 2011, 09:06 PM
How about a .410 shotgun, you wouldn't even have to bend over...

trickyasafox
March 17, 2011, 09:22 PM
I haven't seen this episode yet- but I really like the show. They do a good job of 'mainstreaming' full auto / suppressor gear. If I were down there, I'd buy stuff from em just because of that. They talk enough about the paperwork and the behind the scenes stuff that people in the general public know there is a legal way to own some really neat stuff- and I think that is a big win.

Raphterman
March 21, 2011, 09:43 PM
In Tom Clancy's book "Without Remorse," the main character uses a home made bangstick to dispatch a bad guy. He used a 12ga birdshot round and a spring kept the round from touching the firing pin until the operator slammed the end into the target thus pushing the round back and hitting the firing pin. Like what was mentioned above. I read it years ago but it's still pretty cool. Might have to hit up the book stores and find it again.

DoubleTapDrew
March 22, 2011, 12:36 AM
The Red Jacket guys selling someone a judge or a .410 shotgun would not make for a very entertaining episode.
I hope they aren't out of ideas for shows already. Maybe we could suggest some we'd like to see.

Double Naught Spy
March 22, 2011, 10:09 AM
I don't get it
why are they reinventing the wheel??

You mean like every time a gun company comes out with a new variant gun? Of all the guns introduced to the commercial market in the last 20 years, how many have been a truly new invention?

daorhgih
March 22, 2011, 10:26 AM
... full-body armor, and not just the hat!! Already made my hat!! Dao.

rondog
March 22, 2011, 01:36 PM
Shoot, I bet my Grandma's old magazine-fed bolt-action .410 would do just fine.

RimfireChris
March 22, 2011, 03:30 PM
I am curious. We were talking on another forum about how the .22LR and Mag gets a lotta play on Swamp People, and someone from Florida wondered why they didn't just use a bang-stick, which is reqiured in Florida. From Swamp People I gather that isn't the case in Louisianna, so why build one, unless someone just got tired of missing the gator. I haven't seen the episode yet as it hasn't come up on On Demand yet.

For everyone who's saying "how hard could it be to hit a gator at close range?" watch Swamp People. On one episode they had a fellow who was an experienced hunter, and his first time out he missed the gator two or three times. They thrash about quite a bit, and at that close range a shotgun's load hasn't begun to spread out yet to help any.

788Ham
March 22, 2011, 09:42 PM
C'mon, its just a .410 shot gun shell, not a 50 caliber! No, the .44 mag cartridges aren't any cheaper, have you bought any lately? The .410 is powerful enough to kill a gator, if a .22 shot behind the head will do it, why not a shotgun shell? The device holds the shell, a trigger device sets it off, BOOM, gator dead.

Kingofthehill
March 22, 2011, 09:54 PM
BOOM, gator dead.

With your hand WAY to close for comfort and an awkward angle.

Its also a single shot, if the gator gets into a roll you could risk just grazing the top of the skull.

What really made me question the whole situation is that on another show "Swamp People", when they pull those gators in.... they are FIGHTING! the one they pulled up on this show as a little too lethargic and just stayed still.

I really wonder if the gator was already dead or very very weak/sick.

JOe

Diggers
March 23, 2011, 05:42 AM
My buddy went gator hunting a couple months ago in FL. He told me by LAW in FL he had to use a bang stick. They had one for .357.

I guess the idea is to make it more sporting because first you have to snag the gator and pull it in close to use the bang stick. Seems more sporting than just shooting them from a distance to me. :D

Kingofthehill
March 23, 2011, 10:54 AM
Seems more sporting than just shooting them from a distance to me.

From watching the swamp people show, they don't like to shoot from a distance since they willl air out and sink before they can pull them in the boat often.

They aren't taking long shots usually and they are using rifles more as kill sticks since they can still stand and hold the barrel against the head.

hardluk1
March 23, 2011, 11:28 AM
It's way easier to get up on a gator at night were a bang stick is used in some states as the required way to kill a gator. Also so it keeps some city boy or girls saker and keeps some dumdyfrom skipping a 22 or larger across open water hitting someone or something down range with a rifle in developed areas. Bangsticks have been around a long time,nothing new there. Many good ole boys use to grab smaller gators behind the head, 4' or smaller off airboats at night just for fun. This firearm show is just another crap tv show that fills a time slot like so many others. Real life could be interesting but after editing it looks like stupid tv at most people

daorhgih
March 23, 2011, 03:14 PM
Would a Large, Magnum primer do the trick, when properly applied? Dao.

If you enjoyed reading about "Red Jacket Gator Kill Stick" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!