Ruger Old Model Army/KIRST KONVERTER


PDA






ReloaderEd
March 17, 2011, 04:45 AM
:neener:I need some help here!!!
I just purchased a perfect Ruger blued Old Model Army Revolver, 71/2' barrel in excellent condition.

I have been looking at the Kirst Konverter in 45 ACP. They are quite expensive and I would appreciate some imput from someone in this wonderful group who has one to answer a few questions:
1. Does the new cylinder fit 45 Auto Rim and or half and full moon clips?

2. Does the cylinder hold 5 or 6 cartridges?

3. In your experience does the konverter work ok?

Availability of brass is one reason I like the 45 ACP. Kirst says 800 fps max verlocity which is fine with me.

I appreciate you guys help on this. Thankyou Be Safe

If you enjoyed reading about "Ruger Old Model Army/KIRST KONVERTER" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
rdstrain49
March 17, 2011, 11:51 AM
Personally I would go for a New Model Blackhawk in 45 Colt / 45 ACP. Got mine for about the same price as the converter. Just my opinion.

ClemBert
March 17, 2011, 01:03 PM
Sorry for the uselessness of my post....in advance. :neener:

I didn't even know they made a Kirst 45 ACP cylinder for the ROA. I went with 45 Colt for two reasons...its connection to the old time converted cap-n-ball revolvers of day gone by but more importantly I have another firearm that shoots 45 Colt.

With regards to the cylinder I went with R&D (Howell) for my ROA. I have a Kirst for my Walker. Both R&D and Kirst are high quality products. I went with R&D for the ROA because from what I could tell it was easier to install during a reload. With the R&D you just roll it into place. With the Kirst, my understanding is that you have to first align the flat side of the back plate (the ring) with the bottom of the frame to slide it into place. It just seemed like more fumbling than the R&D. I could be wrong. I'd love to be able to play with a Kirst ROA cylinder to compare the two.

Here's a short video on loading an R&D cylinder in a ROA.

Loading the R&D Conversion Cylinder in a Ruger Old Army (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5AwhP9yzKk)

Sorry I can't answer any of your real questions. :banghead:

ReloaderEd
March 17, 2011, 01:17 PM
I appreciatte your reply, The video explained a lot!!!! Thank you for your time. Be Safe

JNewell
March 17, 2011, 02:26 PM
FWIW, I'll echo ClemBert's post. I have used both Kirst and R&D converters. I still have two of the R&D and none of the Kirst...

andrewstorm
March 18, 2011, 12:37 AM
apples n oranges,aLTHOUGH WITH THE KIRST YOU CAN BUY BOTH CYLINDERS AND ONE BACKPLATE,ahd thus have your cake and eat it to 45 acp is plentiful but not nostalgic,load ur own 45 lc is the way to go,clemberts loads are looking a little stout :eek: all ruger aftermarket cylinders are six chamberd. If you find a good deal on a cylinder make sure the backplate is included as the cylinder only runs around 129.00 usd,and the backplate runs over 200.00 usd, ss is the way to go as it has a higher resale,some cylinders have to be fitted to thre revolver.kirst and r n d will perform this service for you............go to there web sites or taylors n co. and youll seee...........

ClemBert
March 18, 2011, 11:09 AM
clemberts loads are looking a little stout

LOL! I guess I should have mentioned that the loads I was shooting in the video were 40 grains FFFg....and the way I was shooting the ROA is not normally how I shoot but I was sitting at a table trying to make a video and that's how it came out. I prefer to shoot one handed.

ReloaderEd
March 18, 2011, 07:01 PM
The video was great!!! You did an excellent job. Are the cylinder pin and lock latch separate and where do you buy them? I gues I am sold on the R&D. Midway has them also. Thank YOu for your time. Be Safe

ClemBert
March 18, 2011, 07:30 PM
You don't need to purchase a new base pin to use a conversion cylinder (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=833798). I bought the Base Mountain base pin (http://www.beltmountain.com/ruger.htm) just to give my ROA a more refined look. You can use the original Ruger base pin from your ROA minus the lever and the plunger. The "ClemBert Pin" featured in the video was made by yours truly. If you want to make one for yourself you can buy an extra base pin retaining pin (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=950406) from MidwayUSA and with a little soldering and filing you can have your very own. BTW, the Belt Mountain pin is cheaper directly from Belt Mountain. Give them a call to see if they have a blued one in stock.

p.s. Buy yourself 500 pieces of 45 Colt brass (http://www.starlinebrass.com/index.php?cPath=1). It will last you a lifetime shooting with black powder.

JNewell
March 18, 2011, 09:33 PM
The Belt Mountain pin is sort of taster's choice. I bought one but personally I hate the way it looks. :) On the other hand, it does get a whole lot of metal, with a whole lot of leverage on you, off the gun...

andrewstorm
March 19, 2011, 12:58 AM
love to see the roa jump in the hands of a good shot,my roa ss takes about 42 grains 777 3f,behind a 255 gr hornady cowboy, heavy load to say the least,but i feel safe in bear country with that load with cci mag caps,goes bang every time even after being loaded 4 mo and hunting in the rain,but i buy a fresh can every year,and shoot it all up by fall of the next year,oh and for light shooting i use pyrodex pistol pellets,with a wad and ball my roa ,s are unbelievably accurate, even with one hand:D

DammitBoy
May 26, 2011, 09:08 PM
I've toyed with the idea of getting a ROA and a R&D conversion cylinder. The more I think about it though - is it possible to make a full honest conversion of an ROA?

What would be your caliber of choice if you actually made the full conversion to a regular brass eater? How strong could you safely go with a stainless steel ROA?

Up to a .454 casull maybe?

robhof
May 26, 2011, 10:54 PM
The 45 acp conversion for the ROA is for lead rounds only, the jacketed bullets will wear the barrel faster and are less accurate, neither use clips, the cartridge mouth rests against the throat of the cylinder, so shell length and crimp have to be very precise as with the Blackhawk also. DB, the ROA is built on the Blackhawk frame and of the same metal, but not to the tolerances of the BH and shouldn't be pushed beyond cowboy action loads for your own safety, besides, accuracy suffers even with max B/p or tripple 7 loads.

arcticap
May 27, 2011, 02:21 AM
The 45 acp conversion for the ROA is for lead rounds only, the jacketed bullets will wear the barrel faster and are less accurate...

I'm not sure how much extra wear would result from firing jacketed .45 ACP bullets compared to lead bullets during an average lifetime of shooting, or if it's anything to even be concerned about.
Clement's Custom Guns apparently doesn't think that it's anything to worry about.
Both factory jacketed .45 LC & .45 ACP rounds are okay to use with ROA conversion cylinders. TaurusBob has several converted ROA's in both calibers with both R&D and Kirst conversion cylinders installed. The frame work to install the Kirsts was performed by Clement's Custom Guns. TaurusBob exclusively fires his ROA .45 LC conversions with factory jacketed ammo and obtains very good accuracy. When he asked Clement's if loading factory jacketed ammo was safe in his ROA's, he was told that doing so would be harmless to them because they're made from the same stainless steel as the Blackhawk, and that the conversion cylinders are strong enough to handle the factory jacketed ammo. But Clement's did say that only the ROA was made from steel that was strong enough to safely fire those factory cartridges on a regular basis without being harmed.

This quote was from the thread about his newly converted ROA .45 ACP snubbie and includes photos:


I got my ROA back from Clements custom guns. He cut my 7 1/2'' to a 3 1/2'' He did a great job on it, plus the crown he put on is fantastic. My new ROA sheriff's model.

With a Kirst Konverter in 45 ACP shooting Winchester 230 gr. JHP at 10yds I had great groups. I put a taller front sight on. With the standard front sight that came with the ROA I was shooting 4 inchs high at 10yds good groups put high. I have not tried black powder yet

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=571337

Here's a photo of TAURUSBOB's other converted ROA's from page 7 of the ROA Club thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=131149&d=1290733236

ReloaderEd
May 27, 2011, 03:44 AM
I am surprised that Clem-Bert hasn't answered your questions. I have two ROA's and just got conversion cyliners for both revolvers in 45 Colt. These were NOT the KIRST cylinders. One they are more expensive and are not as easy to use in the ROA revolvers. However, the Old Army can shoot jacked ammo just fine and has the strength of Ruger Single Actions. I reload the 45 Long Colt cartridges down to around 800 ft/sec and the load is a delight to shoot.
I am sure however, the KIRST would work just fine.
I purchase my cylinders from Midway USA http://www.midwayusa.com/Search/#conversion%20cylinders____-_1-2-4_8-16-32

ClemBert
May 27, 2011, 10:53 AM
I've toyed with the idea of getting a ROA and a R&D conversion cylinder. The more I think about it though - is it possible to make a full honest conversion of an ROA?

What would be your caliber of choice if you actually made the full conversion to a regular brass eater? How strong could you safely go with a stainless steel ROA?

Up to a .454 casull maybe?

What is your idea of a "full honest conversion"? Would this entail a gated cylinder, modified recoil shield for breech loading, and an extractor? If you did all of this then you'd basically have a Ruger Blackhawk on your hands so I'm not sure what the point would be. I think .45 Colt is a fine cartridge for a black powder conversion. I would keep the loadings to less than +P rounds. Pretty much any reloading manual will give you plenty of non +P configurations. Attempting to modify a ROA for .454 Casull is a bad idea IMHO.

DammitBoy
May 27, 2011, 10:04 PM
What is your idea of a "full honest conversion"? Would this entail a gated cylinder, modified recoil shield for breech loading, and an extractor?

I'd just like to load brass without removing the cylinder and I like the look of the ROA over the Blackhawks, although I do own 7 blackhawks. :uhoh:

Do I need a gated cylinder to do that? How were the early conversions done back in the late 1800's?

How would you do it?

andrewstorm
May 27, 2011, 10:54 PM
GET a ruger old army and shoot percussion out of it,why bother with brass? a load yer own smoker is much more fun than a modern firearm,shoot,id take a percussion gun any day over a brass belch-er......if you want authenticity get a 1858 Remington and send it to Taylor's n co.or you can buy a factory conversion just like the fellas in the 1800 s did:D oh yeah go to the kirst website and see you some real 1858 konversions...

ClemBert
May 28, 2011, 12:13 AM
I'd just like to load brass without removing the cylinder and I like the look of the ROA over the Blackhawks, although I do own 7 blackhawks.

Do I need a gated cylinder to do that? How were the early conversions done back in the late 1800's?

How would you do it?

Yeah, you'd end up with basically a Blackhawk if you did all the normal conversion stuff. You'd have to have a channel cut in the recoil shield. Without the channel you would not be able to breech load. Then, you'd want a gated conversion cylinder. Again, to allow for breech loading. Then, an extractor to eject the spent brass. In the end it would be near a Blackhawk. I doubt if anyone even makes a conversion cylinder for the ROA with a loading gate so I guess my suggestion is mute.

For example, this is what it looks like on a Walker BEFORE and AFTER a conversion.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e212/SyberTiger/Firearms/Colt%20Walker/ColtWalker1.jpg

BEFORE


http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e212/SyberTiger/Firearms/Colt%20Walker/Walker45BPM-2.jpg

AFTER

DammitBoy
May 28, 2011, 12:50 PM
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e212/SyberTiger/Firearms/Colt%20Walker/Walker45BPM-2.jpg

AFTER

That looks great, who does that kind of conversion work?

ClemBert
May 28, 2011, 01:03 PM
That looks great, who does that kind of conversion work?

The conversion cylinder is a Kirst Konverter specifically made for a Walker. It comes with a breech gate as part of the rear ring. As far as channeling out the recoil shield, some folk grind it out themselves with a dremel tool while others will send it to a gunsmith to have it done. Note that this particular conversion does not have an ejector. I just use a short wooden dowel to pop out the empty casings.

DammitBoy
May 28, 2011, 03:23 PM
Thanks clem, appreciate the info!

RMc
June 3, 2011, 04:00 PM
...load performance data also.

Including .45 Colt loads that shoot to the sights with a fixed sight ROA.

http://dixieslugs.com/images/ROA_complete_.pdf

andrewstorm
June 23, 2011, 06:01 PM
very good indeed...........

Marlin 45 carbine
June 23, 2011, 06:20 PM
groove diameter of the ROA is .457 - the o.d. of .45acp is .451 (jacketed slug) and .452 for cast.
not a good match up.
.45 Colt o.d. is .454 - .455 or so with oversizes available.
I have a ROA but not a converter, it's something I've thought about but a max load in the ROA with a Lee mold conical is plenty potent.
there's a smith somewhere I've read that does reaming of ROA cylinders to allow more powder and a larger slug - .457 to be loaded which if what I read can be believed really is a step up.
interesting post.

SMPARKINSON
December 19, 2011, 08:44 PM
There's no reason I can think of that you couldn't do a "full honest conversion". I have a Kirst .22 Konverter for my 1858 Remington, and as it came to me the ring wasn't ported. I also didn't want to take out the cylinder to reload, so after talking to Jay Strite I just cut a rounded chunk out of the ring. I had already converted that 1858 to a full conversion with a gated .45 ACP Kirst unit, so the recoil shield had alresdy been cut and the spring loader ejector installed. The only thing missing on the .22 conversion was an actual gate, but lots of conversions as well as factory guns from back in the day didn't have gates. When the hammer is down the cylinder is indexed so the shells can't fall out, so unless you have the barrel pointed to the sky when you cock your piece, the shells stay put in the cylinder. As far as the ejector goes, the one I used for the .45 conversion only needed the actual ejector rod thinned out a little to accomodate the .22 cylinder. Didn't have to thin it by much, certainly not enough to weaken the rod.
So my point is that If I can make the change to a .22 Kirst back ring to allow reloading without removing the cylinder, I don't see why you couldn't give the Ruger back ring the same treatment. As far as an ejector goes, I bet if you got a replacement Ruger Blackhawk ejector assembly, you could figure a way to mount it solidly and in the correct position. Probably have to build up some sort of mount block to get it the right height, but I don't think it would be hard for somebody with some tools and a little creativity and skill to do a real nice job. I've thought about it myself, and will probably make up just such a conversion one of these days. And to the people who say just buy a Blackhawk, well you could do that. But doing it this way you end up with a one of a kind piece that you customized with your own hands, and you could finish it anyway you wanted. Some guys make spectacular pieces that look like they just came back from a factory after being converted in 1865, and some people age them so that it looks like a well used but well cared for piece thats 140 years old. I'm in the second group. I like to take old things and make them look newer (as long as I'm not hurting any historical value), and I really like to take new things and make them look vintage. Salt, vinagar, ketsup, and mustard along with a little cold blue and brass black are just a few of my secrets. And if I don't like it, I strip it down and start over until I have something I decide to keep.
Both my 1858 5.5" revolver and my 1858 revolving carbine look like I found them under a bed in an old farmhouse. And depending how I set them up, either one can shoot .44 caliber balls, .45 ACP cartridges, or any kind of .22 rimfire aside from magnum. Shorts, longs, long rifles, and cb, bb, and Kolibri Caps. And I could buy just a Kirst cylinder in .45 Colt and add another choice. Don't even have to get another back plate. Did I mention .45 Schofield?

SMPARKINSON
December 19, 2011, 08:52 PM
Buy the way. That Walker is beautiful! Cylinder looks big enough to accomodate a .45-70 Government round! I don't know that a cap and ball replica could handle it, but you would sure get some attention when people saw you loading it up at the range! I would definately like to have a Walker conversion in 45-70 to go with my H&R Officers Model Springfield Trapdoor. I think that hogleg would be a bit of a kicker though. Tell you what. I'll buy the conversion cylinder and the gun, and make the conversion. But somebody else has to do the test firing. I'm thinkin' maybe some 45-70 Plus-P loads if they make 'em.

arcticap
December 19, 2011, 10:03 PM
Kirst makes a Walker conversion cylinder that's fitted for the .460 S&W Magnum cartridge that's been named the .460 BPM (Black Powder Magnum).

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=548783&highlight=.460+bp

If you enjoyed reading about "Ruger Old Model Army/KIRST KONVERTER" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!