Lead in a Glock (any poly rifleing), why not?


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saltydog452
March 18, 2011, 04:09 PM
Why not shoot lead in a poly rifled barrel such as a Glock, Kahr, etc.?

Thanks,

salty

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DoubleTapDrew
March 18, 2011, 04:46 PM
Poly rifling is raised. Lead can build up on the rifling increasing resistance and eventually causing excessive pressure. You can shoot lead in them, but it's a good idea to clean it every few hundred rounds to avoid that possiblity.

Enco
March 18, 2011, 04:50 PM
Isn't all rifling "raised" ?

Bob

ralph2
March 18, 2011, 05:01 PM
I have tried lead bullets in my Glock 17 (9mm) and Glock 21 (45acp). At the lowest velocity + 50 fps that my 9mm would cycle the accuracy was not good. I only tried one powder, maybe another powder would have made a difference however the powder worked good for plated bullets. The Glock 21 seems to like lead bullets. I suspect it is a pressure issue since the 9mm is a much higher pressure round.

Harley Quinn
March 18, 2011, 05:06 PM
Different situation lands and groves...Vs the poly...Glock says don't do it...For a reason I might add;)

As I said in another thread you can do it and get away with it (I choose not to) if you clean and not shoot to much for to long...But I have bought barrels to do that project, yeah it is expensive, the reason others want to shoot lead is the cheap of it, copper for Glock is best, they make a bunch of bullets with copper coating over lead, use them...

Same with buying a trailer and using trailer tires, not passenger ones IMHO...

:)

ljnowell
March 18, 2011, 05:29 PM
As I said in another thread you can do it and get away with it (I choose not to) if you clean and not shoot to much for to long...

How about 5-600 rounds before cleaning?

Do some more independant research OP and read some things in other forums and around the net. You will find that the blanket ban on lead in glocks is unfounded in relation to the 45acp. 9mm and 40, I have no experience with, so I will not comment. I refuse to preach about something when I have NO experience with it.

rcmodel
March 18, 2011, 05:34 PM
I have shot lead bullets in a Glock 23 for going on 15 years.

All you need to do is use very hard Linotype bullets.
And clean the dang chamber every month or so so it won't build up lead & bullet lube in the headspace shoulder and fire out of battery as 1st. Gen Glocks were prone to do.

rc

bds
March 18, 2011, 05:42 PM
OK, don't laugh at the crude drawing ... don't have access to my computer. :D

First, Glock barrels are not truly polygonal rifled barrel in the truest sense but more with rouned lands (hills) in a hexagonal configuration.

Below are rough representation of Glock vs conventional barrel/rifling. The Green circle represents the roughly the diameter of the bullet with glock "hills" pushing into the bullet's bearing surface and providing a tight seal from hot powder ignition gases, thus increasing chamber pressure and increased muzzle velocity from same length conventional land/groove rifled barrel.

The barrel on the right shows the same green diameter of the bullet, but the grooves (red dots) provide space where hot powder ignition gas "leaks" around the bullet/hills of the rifling and provide an "outlet" for pressure buildup to escape.

Match barrels have shorter lands and smaller groove area for more consistent chamber pressure which often results in more accurate shot groups.

Glock barrels present potential pressure build up as published load data are developed using conventional land/groove rifled testing barrel fixtures. So, shooting published max load data in Glock barrels may produce higher than published pressures shot from same length barrels as verified by many published muzzle velocities. This may mean unknown increases in chamber pressure - with pressure spike prone powders/max charges, pressure damage may occur.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=138620&stc=1&d=1300480923

dan10mmman
March 18, 2011, 06:35 PM
I have been shooting lead through my glocks for decades. The type of rifling used in the Glock barrels requires using a hard alloy of lead. Tin and Antimony are commonly used. Wheel weights or lino-type are my favorites. Using water to cold quench them also increases the hardness. Unless you can get your lead bullets hard , velocity needs to be kept low. With hard cast bullets I push a 10mm 180gr lead at 1200fps. with acceptable accuracy. I have fired 500 or more rounds in a day through my G-20 on many occasions. I clean it every time it goes out. Occaisionaly I throw it on the Outers "Foul Out" for a couple hours. No problems.

Warning, if you use to soft of lead bullet or push it to fast you will find your accuracy will go south at a very high rate of speed. the soft lead will reform itself to a smaller diameter rather than spinning, kinda like shooting 20g. slug through a 12g rifled barrel. The bullets going downrange.....somewhere. This is why Glock recomends not using lead, they have no idea if you are using lead or an alloy. Two verry differt stories on how each can be used. Ammunition manufacturers are going to use the least expensive, softest lead available,[not all of them, highly recomend "Double Tap"] again not a good idea in a Glock.
Pressure. The way the pressure inside the case of a firing cartrige builds is different when the projectile is lead or copper against the barrel of the gun. I have noted excessive pressures in lead loaded rounds that were not there using the same powder charge as jacketed, the infamous Glock smile at the bottom of the casing......Bad thing.
I have learned a lot, some the hard way, but reloading is worth the time and effort. I hope this helps, feel free if you have any further questions. Have a great one
Dan

GLOOB
March 18, 2011, 07:06 PM
Edited, because I read the above post. Yeah, that.

glockky
March 19, 2011, 12:15 AM
what hardness are u guys shooting in your glocks

ColtPythonElite
March 19, 2011, 01:09 AM
I loaded my first lead Glock loads in 1998...I still have all my fingers.

Harley Quinn
March 19, 2011, 10:41 AM
Ok, both threads are asking for a BH... Getting down to the nitty gritty :)

smartshot
March 19, 2011, 11:23 AM
I've shot tens of thousands of rounds (many of them lead) through my glock 22, have replaced many parts due to wear and tear, not to include the barrel or anything damaged by lead bullets. I'm not saying to do it, I am saying that I have done it and it is still a very accurate handgun.

IMtheNRA
March 19, 2011, 01:20 PM
Years ago, Gale McMillan posted on The Firing Line: "If you're shooting lead through a polygonal rifled barrel and haven't had any problems, just be patient". :)

Here's a link to a different thread with a short explaination of the problem: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18971

bds
March 19, 2011, 01:21 PM
what hardness are u guys shooting in your glocks
I have shot 9/40/45 bullets with BHN from 12 to 24 in my Glocks with varied results. Years back, I used to think that harder 21-24 BHN was better because they could be pushed faster (I was younger and faster was ALWAYS better ... so I thought. :D).

Well, I always got some extent of leading that ranged from thin smear to heavy full-length strips along the rifling. When I checked with other shooters, they said I need to push the "hard cast" bullets faster to seal the bullet base to the barrel. Dang ... I ended up pushing the 21-24 BHN bullets to near max load data to decrease the leading down to minimal smear. I don't think I ever got any good bumping of the base (obturation) to seal the bullet base to barrel bore properly. I always had to clean the lead out of both stock Glock and Lone Wolf barrels using lead solvents (I used 3 different ones).

When my local bullet caster retired, I tried Missouri Bullets based on THR positive postings/recommendations. I started with 18 BHN 9/40 bullets. Out of habit, I started my initial testing of 9mm 125 gr RN with near max load data. I got full-length barrel leading. My response was, "Oh crap! Doh! Too fast! :banghead: :D

Well, it didn't take long to make the realization that with 18 BHN, mid to high range load data provided good bumping of the bullet base (obturation) to seal with the barrel bore and accuracy also improved. I worked with the powder charge to eliminate leading, but kept getting some fouling smear near the chamber end. Thanks to many THR PMs/threads/posts (Thanks, you know who you are ;)), it was determined that this little smear was from gas cutting and eroding of the bullet base (the flash of powder ignition doesn't melt the bullet base surface, not enough time/temp exposure) as the bullet jumped through the leade to engage the rifling.

With Glock barrels, this is a particular problem as the start of the rifling is farther from the chamber than most other barrels. This is less of a problem with Lone Wolf barrel as the start of rifling is closer to the chamber. Lengthening the OAL to engage the rifling sooner further decreased this little smear and I no longer use any lead solvent. Hoppes #9 soaked bore brush wrapped with copper scrubbing pad material easily removes this little fouling smear with just a few strokes back and forth.

Based on my personal experience, I think "no lead in Glock" may have to do with the fact that Glock rifling is rounded and smooth. If you are pushing the bullets fast (near max load data) because of really hard bullets, you are probably overcoming the rifling twist as rounded "lands" are not digging into the bullet surface and the bullet is traveling down the barrel without twisting. This will cause smear/strip leading along the barrel and decreased accuracy.

Using less harder bullet and mid-high range load data will allow the bullet base to obturate and seal better with the barrel bore. If the rounded and smoother Glock rifling engages the bullet's bearing surface better, this will reduce the "stripping off" leading and improve accuracy. The tighter specs on Lone Wolf barrels and conventional land/groove rifling minimize this concern, but I found that same mid-high range load data rounds work well in LW barrels so I load them the same.

When people ask me, "Are you shooting lead bullets out of Glocks?" I smile and tell them there are certain criteria/requirements that I use like the proper bullet/powder combination and more frequent inspection of the barrel. But yes, I do shoot lead reloads out of Glock barrels happily.

With my recent salary cut, I am planning to shoot more lead bullets to practice over plated bullets. With significantly lower Missouri Bullets price over plated/jacketed, I still can shoot the same number of rounds at lower cost of reloading.

Precision Delta (http://www.precisiondelta.com/product.php) 9mm 124 gr FMJ $77/1K, 40S&W 180 gr FMJ $114/1K, 45ACP 230 gr FMJ $119/1K

Berry's (Powder Valley) (http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/) 9mm 125 gr RN $65/1K, 40S&W 180 gr FP $91/1K, 45ACP 230 gr RN $113/1K

Missouri Bullets (http://www.missouribullet.com/results.php?pageNum_rsCWResults=1&category=5&secondary=13)/Powder Valley (http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/) 9mm 125 gr RN $55/1K, 40S&W 180 gr TCFP $68/1K, 45ACP 230 gr RN $80/1K

rcmodel
March 19, 2011, 02:39 PM
Again, I use nothing but Linotype cast bullets in mine.

Linotype is BNH 22.

rc

Harley Quinn
March 19, 2011, 03:27 PM
What Gale McMillan mentions...:)


The reason that a polygonal barrel will blow up when shooting lead is not due to fouling. It is that the soft lead wants to skid and if it does it locks up between two rifling flats and the pressure goes sky high. When I was making polygon rifle barrels the lead lap I used to lap the barrels some times would lock up and the only way you could get it out was to melt it out. If it were very hard lead it would help but why take the chance?

Some help on hardness...

http://www.hammersource.com/Hardness.html

Aluminum Brinell hardness of around 70
Copper Brinell hardness 40-50
Lead Brinell hardness usually in the 30's

I am editing this but leaving so rcmodel's post makes sense...

This is a good link to find hardness...

http://periodictable.com/Properties/A/BrinellHardness.html

Which really shows the original link posted...Hmmm Guess what lots of opinions LOL

rcmodel
March 19, 2011, 04:19 PM
Lead Brinell hardness usually in the 30's
I don't know where they got that information.

Pure lead has a Brinell hardness of 5.
The hardest common lead alloy used in type setting is Monotype metal, with a Brinell hardness of 28.

The hardest lead alloy used in bullet casting is Linotype metal, and it is Brinell 23.

rc

ljnowell
March 19, 2011, 05:24 PM
What Gale McMillan mentions...


Quote:
The reason that a polygonal barrel will blow up when shooting lead is not due to fouling. It is that the soft lead wants to skid and if it does it locks up between two rifling flats and the pressure goes sky high. When I was making polygon rifle barrels the lead lap I used to lap the barrels some times would lock up and the only way you could get it out was to melt it out. If it were very hard lead it would help but why take the chance?

Some help on hardness...

http://www.hammersource.com/Hardness.html

Aluminum Brinell hardness of around 70
Copper Brinell hardness 40-50
Lead Brinell hardness usually in the 30's

I am editing this but leaving so rcmodel's post makes sense...

This is a good link to find hardness...

http://periodictable.com/Properties/...lHardness.html

Which really shows the original link posted...Hmmm Guess what lots of opinions LOL


I guess I dont even need to bother reading those links, the info you posted from them is invalid. Once again, if you dont have any experience loading lead in glock, you base your assertions on false information, why are you even posting in this thread? You have created more confusion and misinformation for any newbie reloader that should happen upon this thread. Why cant you just leave it alone when you know nothing of the subject? Beat the dead horse somewhere else!

Harley Quinn
March 19, 2011, 06:32 PM
ljnowell
Because a newbee should not do it...Simple;)

It is ok for those who have been around some and feel they have some experience... But those links are posted...

I know an indoor range, that will not allow you to shoot lead in Glocks...:)

I have a profile, your's is pretty slim to none...I notice that a lot;)

This link you should read about brittleness and lead...
http://nhunting.com/forum/topic/5765-bullet-hardness-vs-lead-fouling/

Links help and the one who wrote them are responsible...You don't read them or the OP does not, fine...


Regards

bds
March 19, 2011, 08:42 PM
Because a newbee should not do it...Simple
Harley Quinn, I agree to a point.

Many Glock fans see/read that "Glocks never need cleaning and still function" and take it that it applies to all bullet types - Wrong! These torture test objectives typically apply to the pistol action/slide operation while shooting jacketed factory or reloaded jacketed/plated ammunition as there's very little fouling building up inside the barrel. I have shot my Glocks with up to 4000 rounds of jacketed/plated bullets with no cleaning in a single range session without significant fouling buildup inside the barrel. With lead bullets, this is not the case.

The reason why I have recommended checking of barrel every 200-300 rounds or so is this:
it was determined that this little smear was from gas cutting and eroding of the bullet base (the flash of powder ignition doesn't melt the bullet base surface, not enough time/temp exposure) as the bullet jumped through the leade to engage the rifling.

With Glock barrels, this is a particular problem as the start of the rifling is farther from the chamber than most other barrels.
This fouling smear is comprised of burnt carbon/lube/eroded lead and if this fouling smear is allowed to buildup (as in "Glock never needs cleaning"), it may get thick enough to provide enough resistance to the bullet nose to increase the chamber pressure. I have seen several KB'd Glocks and at least one blown Glock was shooting lead reloads and there was significant fouling buildup at the chamber end of the barrel.

So, be safe but enjoy your Glock. Check that barrel for buildup at chamber end and clean as necessary. :D

Gadzooks Mike
March 19, 2011, 09:39 PM
what hardness are u guys shooting in your glocks

MBC
IDP #9
.401 Diameter
.40 S&W/10mm
155 Grain SWC
Brinell 18

ljnowell
March 19, 2011, 10:32 PM
I have a profile, your's is pretty slim to none...I notice that a lot

What is that supposed to mean? Your posts are "worth" more? Thats plain silly. Just post your experiences, post facts, but not opinions and what you have heard. Great, you posted what you read/heard/were told. Now, let others post what they know from practice and experience.

daorhgih
March 19, 2011, 10:55 PM
Does seem to be true, with a difference of ± 300 posts. But who cares about intra-post calumny? Not I. Digest all data with a grain of salt, and stay on the conservative side of KaBooom.. Dao.

ljnowell
March 19, 2011, 11:15 PM
Harley Quinn, I agree to a point.


I agree with that point too. I think that someone should know both sides of the argument, should take personal experiences, etc. into consideration when they do so.

Hangingrock
March 20, 2011, 11:55 AM
This subject is like putting a patch on a patch. That’s to say why yes you can shoot lead/alloy bullets but you must do so within certain parameters. If you must shoot lead then why not change out the OEM barrel to an after market barrel with conventional rifling and be done with it. To stay with the OEM barrel with lead bullets is it not an example of penny wise and pound foolish.

bds
March 20, 2011, 12:53 PM
This subject is like putting a patch on a patch. That’s to say why yes you can shoot lead/alloy bullets but you must do so within certain parameters.
Believe me, I share the same sentiment. But this is THR.

I have been shooting several hundreds of thousands of reloads out of my Glocks to include lead reloads and over-max jacketed/plated loads. Part of my Lone Wolf 40-9 conversion barrel use in Glock 22 is so that I can shoot 9mm major power factor level loads with a bit of pressure insurance. Many say you shouldn't use faster burning powder in 40S&W and many more complain about "snappy" recoil of 40S&W. Well, I have shot plenty of Hirtenberger +P+ rounds in Glock 17s and even factory JHP 40S&W felt recoil is milder than bone jarring/hand numbing recoil of the Hirtenberger rounds.

But this is THR. Plenty of moderator posts have reaffirmed the disclaimer requirements for posting over max and unpublished loads. Since I help set up many new reloaders to this hobby/passion, I tend to stay on the side of safety and have them stick to published loads.

I am a curious reloader and try many things (test below start charge for example). I had my reservations about starting the Promo thread for 9/40 (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=518185) as there is no current published load data for 9/40 for Red Dot, which Alliant indicate that we can use by weight for Promo. With new reloaders unfamiliar with this fast burning powder in mind, I detailed the steps I used to range test my work up (I still have all of my fingers). ;)

Ultimately, can you shoot reloads in Glocks? Glock won't endorse it, nor will they endorse shooting ANY reloads out of Glocks.

For me, I have and will continue to shoot lead reloads out of my Glocks but will continue to post qualifiers/disclaimers. My recommendation of "Inspect your barrel about 200-300 rounds for fouling build-up" may be a bit extreme, but keep in mind that we are recommending something already not endorsed by the manufacturer of the pistol ... a line needs to be drawn somewhere to guide new/unfamiliar reloaders to keep them safe as much as possible.

I will also continue to recommend using mid to high range load data to provide some buffer "headroom" from max load data as some reloaders won't realize the dangers of extra chamber pressure generated from shorter OAL, bullet diameter/bore fit, etc. etc. when using max load data and think they are safe - they are not as testing fixtures/barrel lengths/components used are often not duplicated by new/unfamiliar reloaders.

This is THR and I believe we have some responsibility to guide those new/unfamiliar along the safe reloading path. Later, if they so choose to deviate from published safe load data practices, they will be on their own but not on our/THR advisement.

Be safe, but do enjoy your Glocks!

Harley Quinn
March 20, 2011, 03:02 PM
Ok, not much else to say really, one will shoot lead, one won't, in Glock standard barrel...I just purchased a barrel for shooting lead 9mm, may never happen but I have the barrel...
Do your thing, be careful...
:)
Regards

Harley Quinn
March 20, 2011, 06:38 PM
It is an observation :)


What is that supposed to mean? Your posts are "worth" more? Thats plain silly. Just post your experiences, post facts, but not opinions and what you have heard. Great, you posted what you read/heard/were told. Now, let others post what they know from practice and experience.

RustyFN
March 20, 2011, 07:01 PM
I was talking to a Glock Armor at a GSSF match about shooting lead in a Glock barrel. He told me it is fine but the biggest problem is people try to shoot jacketed ammo after lead to clean the barrel and that's when most of the problems start. He also said that you need to slug the barrel and shoot the correct size bullets. He said for a G-17 ( 9mm ) you will probably need to shoot a .357 or .358 lead bullet. Take this for what it's worth.

blarby
March 21, 2011, 01:47 PM
Very interesting.

Nice that the original thread got jacked over here under the guise of a rifling level dispute not lead in general...got bantered about back to basically the origanal thread, degenerated into wang waving, yet basically got my questions answered.

You guys have a weird way of doing things, but I'll take it.

Thanks for all the input.

Does it always turn into these personal battles for you guys....just curious?

ljnowell
March 21, 2011, 02:34 PM
Does it always turn into these personal battles for you guys....just curious?


NO, the High Road is generally a pretty friendly place with not a lot of arguing. Sometimes though it will develop into that. I think that this issue is like a caliber war. A lot of people wont see it the other way, and I can be one of them. I think people should be careful when using lead in Poly barrels, but when the blanket statement of NO is made, I will take exception to that. Many of us do so, regularly. In my case its 45 only. I will say that I have no desire to even attempt to try lead in a glock in 9mm or 40, though I know several who do.

Oh, yeah, I bought a lonewolf barrel for my G21, actually owned two of them, and have gotten rid of both. Neither were more accurate or leaded less. Neither were as reliable and I eventually sent one back to lone wolf to be remachined. I wouldnt buy another barrel from them at all.

saltydog452
March 21, 2011, 07:02 PM
Thanks all.

Harley Quinn
March 23, 2011, 02:20 PM
I have numerous barrels for my Glocks and some are Wolf... The thing about 45acp is...Low pressure and forgiving...Not the same with 40 S&W or 9mm, 357 SIG, 10mm...

I like the 400 Corbon for the reason it is a low pressure round, after market barrel and can spruce it up some and shoot it in my Glock 21... Bottle necked are more complicated for loaders and they are not as popular...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.400_Corbon

In order to know these things you have to ask, or been around the block and have some experience, here at THR it is generally mentioned, safety is prudent, some will tell you how many thousands they have shot and no problems... But buyer beware is best advise IMHO...

Regards

atonguis
March 26, 2011, 10:48 AM
Gawd, I get so sick of these arguments!

I have a glock 21 2nd gen and yes I shoot lead, but I also stop after x number of rounds and shine a light in there and just have a look see, just to be sure. If your shooting plain lead (not coated or plated) and you really dont know or are not sure, stop and look in the chamer and barrel and adjust from there, you will know if its too hot or the lead is too soft.

I started using coated bullets like Bayou Bullets (those green ones) in my 9mm and 45acp, the can be loaded to fmj specs with no issues, provided you didnt shave off the coating when seating or crimping! They are just as cheap as lead and I dont have to worry about leading in my glocks or any other pistol.

The reason I use Bayou Bullets is that he is close and I can drive over there and pick them up, or I would order from other companies as long as the coating thick and hard.

ljnowell
March 26, 2011, 11:41 AM
How much are the Bayou Bullets? I havent shot any of the coated bullets, as I have had good luck with Missouri Bullet. I would be willing to try them though, just for the heck of it.

atonguis
March 30, 2011, 04:40 AM
How much are the Bayou Bullets? I havent shot any of the coated bullets, as I have had good luck with Missouri Bullet. I would be willing to try them though, just for the heck of it.
I have not bought in a while since I buy thousands at a time for my 9mm and 45 acp. Send him an email and he will send you a sample pack (100 I think) to try here is his email bayoubullets@yahoo.com

Afy
March 30, 2011, 06:08 AM
Or you could simply use polymer coated bullets, like those from Ares.
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh178/afy08/9-2.jpg

Harley Quinn
March 30, 2011, 11:30 AM
This is a good read about the polymer bullet...:D

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/12/ares-color-coated-cast-bullets-from-slovakia/


“Please take into consideration that ARES Colored Bullets are more quick than copper plated/FMJ bullets. If you used to [shoot] copper plated/FMJ bullets, please start reloading Colored Bullets (CB) with approx. 5% less powder and adjust the final quantity of powder on basis of your own speed measurements. CBs keep the barrel clean.

Sapper771
March 31, 2011, 06:52 AM
Have the ARES bullets made it to the USA yet? Last I checked, they still hadnt crossed the pond.

atonguis
April 8, 2011, 05:43 AM
Or you could simply use polymer coated bullets, like those from Ares.
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh178/afy08/9-2.jpg
Where did you get those from? Trying to find some to test out

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