Explain the "gun show" sales out of state, versus other FTF deals There.


PDA






Ignition Override
March 19, 2011, 12:25 AM
The point of this question is to better understand the general situation down south, when we drive around across state lines (only in person).

Most of the problems in NJ, NY, CT, IL, CA etc don't seem to concern us down here. Let's not bother with their unique problems.

People seem able to be able to buy the gun show bldg. (this happens very often), then is it also legal on the physical Edge of the Show's Parking Lot? Or is this a 'gray' area if the buyer has a legally very clean background? I've attended about sixteen shows since '08.

Federal law seems to prohibit having a visitor who drives from IN, KY, etc to another state such as TN, AR, MS etc and offers to sell you a gun FTF in your driveway.

As people often buy a rifle from somebody in line, who is waiting to get in the gun show, then why is this not legal a mile from the gun show location, in a FTF deal?
I've never seen any discussion of these two similar but somehow different legal situations, or where they can 'overlap', on the seven websites which I skim through.
If this topic seems to be too sensitive to explain on public forum, a member or moderator might prefer to send a 'pm'.

If you enjoyed reading about "Explain the "gun show" sales out of state, versus other FTF deals There." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
mnrivrat
March 19, 2011, 02:14 AM
Private sales are only legal within your state. You can not transfer/sell a gun to someone who lives outside your state of residence.

Ignition Override
March 19, 2011, 04:10 AM
Thanks for the clarification.

Therefore only inside a gun show building -which is in another southern state- is any private sale legally allowed, or tolerated?

Guns and more
March 19, 2011, 08:51 AM
Therefore only inside a gun show building -which is in another southern state- is any private sale legally allowed, or tolerated?
No. As I understand it, you cannot go to another state, and buy a firearm without it being shipped to an FFL in your state. It doesn't matter if you are at a gun show, in the parking lot, or in your driveway.
If it is done at gun shows (I don't know) it is illegal. That's not the fault of the gun show, they don't support illegal transfers.

kimberkid
March 19, 2011, 10:36 AM
No. As I understand it, you cannot go to another state, and buy a firearm without it being shipped to an FFL in your state. It doesn't matter if you are at a gun show, in the parking lot, or in your driveway.
If it is done at gun shows (I don't know) it is illegal. That's not the fault of the gun show, they don't support illegal transfers.When did that change?

I'm in Kansas and have gone to Missouri and bought a brand new long gun from a dealer ... I know you can't to this with a handgun but rifles and shotguns, purchased from dealers in a boarding state used to be OK.

Mags
March 19, 2011, 10:39 AM
You can buy long guns from FFLs in contiguous states. Handgun sales across state lines is a no-no unles the gun is shipped to a local FFL.

mnrivrat
March 19, 2011, 10:52 AM
and bought a brand new long gun from a dealer

Nothing changed - we are talking about private sales.

You can buy long guns from FFLs in contiguous states.

That is correct.

tkaction
March 19, 2011, 11:05 AM
I thought that the law changed and you can buy a long gun from an FFL in any state. I live in PA and I was in a shop in VA. I didnt buy but the guy said I could.

rule303
March 19, 2011, 11:14 AM
You can now buy long guns from an FFL in any state, as long as the purchase is not prohibited in your home state.

Sam1911
March 19, 2011, 11:14 AM
I thought that the law changed and you can buy a long gun from an FFL in any state.

The FOPA '86 erased the federal "contiguous states" restriction put in place in the GCA '68.

As an unlicensed person you may:
1) Buy a rifle, shotgun, or handgun from a dealer or other citizen of your state, in your state. (As long as your state laws allow.)
2) Buy a rifle or shotgun from an FFL dealer at their place of business or at a gun show in ANY state. (As long as both states' laws allow.)
3) Buy a rifle or shotgun from a private party in another state -- IF you transfer it (filling out the 4473 form) at a dealer in that state or your state. (As long as both states' laws allow.)
4) Buy a handgun from a private party in any state -- IF you transfer it (filling out the 4473 form) at a dealer in your state.

You may NOT:
1) Buy a rifle or shotgun from anyone who is not a licensed dealer (FFL) who is a resident of any other state besides your state of residence. (Unless you have a dealer do the transfer paperwork as mentioned above.)
2) Buy a handgun from anyone, including an FFL dealer, in any state outside your state of residence.

All of this is spelled out pretty clearly in the ATF's FAQ (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html).
...

So, to answer your questions directly:

The point of this question is to better understand the general situation down south, when we drive around across state lines (only in person).Down south, up north -- all the same. Some states have more restrictive laws, but that's true throughout the country.

As we can easily drive from TN to MS or TX to buy an old surplus Enfield rifle etc- personal sale- Inside the gun show bldg. (this happens very often), This is completely illegal. Federal law says that if the buyer and seller are not residents of the same state, both commit federal felonies.

then is it also legal on the physical Edge of the Show's Parking Lot? Or is this a 'gray' area if the buyer has a legally very clean background? Obviously not legal anywhere on the show grounds, or anywhere else in the country. Transfer MUST be done through an FFL dealer on the 4473 form. Period.

Federal law seems to prohibit having a visitor who drives from IN, KY, etc to another state such as TN, AR, MS etc and offers to sell you a gun FTF in your driveway.Yup. Or at a gun show. Or anywhere.

As people often buy a rifle from somebody in line, who is waiting to get in the gun show, then why is this not legal a mile from the gun show location, in a FTF deal?Again, both parties commit federal felonies. If one of the parties is an ATF undercover agent, the other party goes to prison and pays large fines.

I've never seen any discussion of these two similar but somehow different legal situations, or where they can 'overlap', on the seven websites which I skim through.Really? I know we covered it regularly here -- already once this month: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7151019

If this topic seems to be too sensitive to explain on public forum, a member or moderator might prefer to send a 'pm'. Not at all! It is a matter of federal law, and the answers are VERY clear. No mystery, no sensitive info.

hso
March 19, 2011, 12:41 PM
Sam pretty much summed it up.

I gotta agree that non-FFL sales, interstate sales and the BATFE FAQs on them have been frequently discussed in Legal. Perhaps Sam's post would make a good sticky? (http://http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=517156)

Ignition Override
March 19, 2011, 12:54 PM
Thanks very much for the explanation.

NavyLCDR
March 19, 2011, 01:02 PM
The only thing I would add to Sam's post is in regards to:

3) Buy a rifle or shotgun from a private party in another state -- IF you transfer it (filling out the 4473 form) at a dealer in that state or your state. (As long as both states' laws allow.)

4) Buy a handgun from a private party in any state -- IF you transfer it (filling out the 4473 form) at a dealer in your state.

If the gun is going to be transferred at an FFL in the buyer's state of residence, the gun must be delivered or shipped to the FFL by the seller. If the buyer purchases the gun in a state other than their own, and then takes possession of that gun, without having it first transferred via an FFL, the buyer is violating 18 USC 922 (a)(3), Federal Law.

The legal way to accomplish the transaction is for the buyer to pay the out of state seller for the gun. The out of state seller then ships or delivers that gun to the buyer's FFL, who transfers the gun to the buyer. The seller may utilize an FFL to ship the gun to the buyer's FFL, but it is not required by law.

NavyLCDR
March 19, 2011, 01:04 PM
Isn't it funny how this "gun show loophole" that the Brady Bunch and other anti-gun groups all point to is already an illegal action?

Sam1911
March 19, 2011, 01:11 PM
No problem!

There are a few things to consider about this discussion which relate to the greatly-debated "Gun Show Loophole" debate that is pushed so hard by the other side.

1) There is no "gun show loophole." (As we all say over and over.) The law allows for private sales in some situations. A gun show is legally no different than someone's driveway or the parking lot at the Piggly Wiggly. In no cases does the law allow anyone to purchase a firearm if they are a "prohibited person," which somehow seems to come up in all these "loophole" rants, (i.e.: criminals buying guns without paperwork). In no cases does the law allow non-dealer transfers across state lines. Anyone doing either of those things is already breaking the law. Again, there is NO loophole.

2) There are many instances of otherwise law-abiding folks breaking the out-of-state transfer laws out of ignorance. As Ignition Override so clearly (and inadvertently) illustrates, many of "US" are completely certain that some things are legal when they absolutely are NOT. The laws are clear and available, but not widely known, taught, and understood. A great many of "US" have probably broken one or more of these laws without any intent or knowledge that they were in grave danger.

When we beg the government to not pass new gun control legislation but to enforce existing gun laws, guess who those laws would be enforced upon? Those many thousands of "us," -- friends, brothers, hunting pals, grand-dads, ... even ourselves if we're not careful -- who never knew the law and assumed the law was "common sense" stuff that would really only effect "bad people." If we ever get past the "talking points" phase with our request that the gov't enforce existing laws, we're going to see a lot of perfectly innocuous people caught in a terrible place.

We owe it to ourselves and our shooting "community" as a whole to educate one another and make sure these "details" aren't STOP falling through the cracks.

rugerdude
March 19, 2011, 01:46 PM
Is it possible to have 2 states of residence? Like, someone stationed in a state for over a year, but maintaining a driver's license in another state where their home of record is located?

Sam1911
March 19, 2011, 01:49 PM
Is it possible to have 2 states of residence?

Ask the ATF! Same FAQ (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html)as before.

Q: What constitutes residency in a State?

The State of residence is the State in which an individual is present; the individual also must have an intention of making a home in that State. A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. If a member of the Armed Forces maintains a home in one State and the member’s permanent duty station is in a nearby State to which he or she commutes each day, then the member has two States of residence and may purchase a firearm in either the State where the duty station is located or the State where the home is maintained. An alien who is legally in the United States is considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in that State and has resided in that State continuously for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale of the firearm. See also Item 5, “Sales to Aliens in the United States,” in the General Information section of this publication.

[18 U.S.C. 921(b), 922(a) (3), and 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.11]

Q: May a person (who is not an alien) who resides in one State and owns property in another State purchase a handgun in either State?

If a person maintains a home in 2 States and resides in both States for certain periods of the year, he or she may, during the period of time the person actually resides in a particular State, purchase a handgun in that State. However, simply owning property in another State does not qualify the person to purchase a handgun in that State.

[27 CFR 478.11]

eye5600
March 19, 2011, 02:26 PM
There is no "gun show loophole." (As we all say over and over.) The law allows for private sales in some situations. A gun show is legally no different than someone's driveway or the parking lot at the Piggly Wiggly. In no cases does the law allow anyone to purchase a firearm if they are a "prohibited person," which somehow seems to come up in all these "loophole" rants, (i.e.: criminals buying guns without paperwork).

The "loophole" is that you can buy friend-to-friend without an NICS check. To the extent that gun shows make it easier to find a "friend" and make a deal, it's a gun show loophole. What troubles Bloomberg and the antis is that non-FFLs can buy tables at gun shows and sell to whoever without the NICS check. The justification for friend-to-friend sales is that you know who you are selling to, but these guys don't.

The biggest problem in gun control is straw purchases and it's difficult to police a straw purchase that begins with a friend-to-friend sale at a gun show. Or in the parking lot.

Sam1911
March 19, 2011, 02:35 PM
The "loophole" is that you can buy friend-to-friend without an NICS check. That's not a "loophole." That's the law of the land regarding the sale of your private property.

To the extent that gun shows make it easier to find a "friend" and make a deal, it's a gun show loophole.The law doesn't dictate that you have to sell your personal property only to "friends." WRT firearms, the law says you must not have any reason to believe that they are prohibited persons. "Friend" doesn't enter into it.

What troubles Bloomberg and the antis is that non-FFLs can buy tables at gun shows and sell to whoever without the NICS check. Right... Just like you can sell to any resident of your state out of your garage, living room, or anywhere else.

The justification for friend-to-friend sales is that you know who you are selling to, but these guys don't.Who invented the term "friend-to-friend?" I've never heard that one before. You are not required to know someone to be able to sell to them. You are only required not to have any reason to believe that they are a prohibited purchaser.

Further, what is this "justification" of which you speak? There exist certain legal "justifications" as to why the government may prohibit certain sales, but there need be no "justification" for why citizens may sell, trade, or give away their private posessions. The right to conduct business is primary. The restrictions upon that right are seconday and are what require justifications. The question is not, "why are we allowed...?" but "why is the government allowed to restrict...?"

The biggest problem in gun control is straw purchases and it's difficult to police a straw purchase that begins with a friend-to-friend sale at a gun show. Or in the parking lot.Again, I don't know what a "friend-to-friend" sale is. Never heard of that. Now straw purchases are supposedly a problem, but they really have to do with sales from dealers who have to run background checks. If someone is attempting a "straw purchase," how does that "begin with a friend-to-friend sale?"

Straw purchases and the "gun show loophole" are unrelated issues. One has to do with dealers, one with sales between unlicensed individuals.

tkaction
March 19, 2011, 02:51 PM
what is this now..."friend to friend" dont start making up new terms in an already complicated issue. FTF means "face to face" and cannot be made between residents of different states unless an FFL is involved

Sam1911
March 19, 2011, 02:55 PM
FTF means "face to face"Even "face to face" is a term we've invented. It doesn't have any legal meaning. What we call "face to face" merely is a sale between individuals who are not licensed firearms dealers.

Further, "face to face" sales do NOT have to occur literally face-to-face. It is legal to sell a gun to a resident of your state whom you've never met or seen, shipping by common carrier.

tkaction
March 19, 2011, 03:05 PM
I was refering to the other poster now coming up with a new class of transactions as you mentioned.... Friend to friend. There are no friends in firearm sales as far as I am concerned. The risk is too great

Sam1911
March 19, 2011, 03:28 PM
I was refering to the other poster now coming up with a new class of transactions as you mentioned

Right. And I'm saying that we've done ourselves some disservice with the shorthand language we use.

First we called them "face-to-face" transactions which indicates a condition of the sale which is not actually required. ('Cause you don't have to be within 100 miles of the buyer, or to have ever met them or even heard of them before.) And now eye5600 has stretched that even further to "friend-to-friend" as though, not only do you have to be face-to-face, but you have to know them personally, vouch for their character, and even feel some level of affection for them! :)

In fact, once again, this is very clearly spelled out by the ATF -- who we all decry as inventing all kinds of unreasonable and unlawful restrictions on gun rights! We're inventing conditions of sale that even the big bad enemy government agency doesn't pretend we're supposed to have to meet!

From the same FAQ I've linked twice already:

Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. ... (snip)

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]



Once more, the sole restriction on a sale between residents of the same state is, "...if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited..."

Ignition Override
March 19, 2011, 05:46 PM
I'll read those previous posts when I have more time.

An experienced staffer at a local shop said that he was at the recent huge show in Tulsa (thousands of tables).

The ATF were near him, and their primary concern was the theft of AR-15 components.

Maybe this was unique, but although FTF sales at out-of-state shows are illegal, he has never heard of the enforcement, as long as the seller is not intentionally selling to somebody who is a felon (or domestic abuse) etc.
He claims that this FTF business is why the gunshow loophole exists.

Maybe it is mostly ignored by the ATF, the way Dutch police ignore weed sales in Amsterdam (for personal use)?

NavyLCDR
March 19, 2011, 06:16 PM
Is it worth it to take the chance? And remember, the buyer is more on the hook for the felony than the seller is. The buyer had to know he was buying a gun from an out of state private source, because he was not in his state of residence at the time and no form 4473 and no NICS check means he was buying from a private party and not from an FFL. The private seller is actually under NO obligation to verify the state of residence of the buyer. The private seller is only under the obligation to not sell to a person known or reasonably suspected to be an out of state resident (according to most states' laws).

The decision is totally yours, however. You will be the person committing the felony.

Sam1911
March 19, 2011, 07:21 PM
He claims that this FTF business is why the gunshow loophole exists.


"This FTF business" -- in other words, private sales, whether they take place at a gun show, or your living room, or the men's room down at the bus station -- is what is called the "gun show loophole" by the anti-gun crowd. It isn't a loophole of any sort, as has already been explained.

(Loophole, to me, indicates that one has found a technical glitch in a law that allows one to circumvent the intent of the law without actually breaking that law.)

People who break the law by buying a firearm from a non-licensed individual outside their home state are not exploiting a "loophole" in the law -- because they aren't following the law at all!

People who break the law by buying a firearm when they are already a "Prohibited Person" are not exploiting a "loophole" in the law -- because they aren't following the law at all!

Again... WHERE is this loophole?

All the "GSL" really indicates are three things: 1) The misunderstanding of the majority of society about how gun laws work to begin with (in some ways evidenced in this very thread), and 2) The desire of the real anti-gun folks to make private sales of firearms illegal universally, using gun shows as a convenient starting point, and 3) The profound ability of those anti-gun types to create an issue of wide public concern out of nothing more than misunderstanding and disingenuous suggestions.

eye5600
March 19, 2011, 07:55 PM
Get a hold of yourself there Sam. No need to get all excited.

I was pointing out that the when the antis talk about the "loophole" (and I put it in quotes to indicate that it was questionable), they are talking about a situation that actually exists. You may not like the terminology, and you may not think it's a problem, but it's not a figment of the imagination. You may have seen the video that Bloomberg's agents got asking sellers at gun shows if they needed a NICS check (and said they couldn't pass one). That's what they are talking about.

I'm sorry to raise a ruckus by using the wrong terms for FTF, but the point is real. If you made a private deal, you may not sell to someone you know is a prohibited person. For me, that would require asking. For you, maybe not.

I will also point out that some states put limits on FTF sales. In Massachusetts, for example, the limit is four per year.

NavyLCDR
March 19, 2011, 08:04 PM
I was pointing out that the when the antis talk about the "loophole" (and I put it in quotes to indicate that it was questionable), they are talking about a situation that actually exists. You may not like the terminology, and you may not think it's a problem, but it's not a figment of the imagination. You may have seen the video that Bloomberg's agents got asking sellers at gun shows if they needed a NICS check (and said they couldn't pass one). That's what they are talking about.

Bloomberg's agents were not attempting to exploit any loophole in the law. Bloomberg's agents were attempting to incite sellers to make illegal transactions. There is whole world of difference there.

Sam1911
March 19, 2011, 08:41 PM
Get a hold of yourself there Sam. No need to get all excited.Oh, I'm not excited, I'm only trying to share some truth, to help dissolve some of the misconceptions you've heard.

You may have seen the video that Bloomberg's agents got asking sellers at gun shows if they needed a NICS check (and said they couldn't pass one). That's what they are talking about.
As NavyLT well explained, that isn't some loophole in the law. That's folks breaking the law, clearly and completely, and some persons of questionable authority, integrity, and apparent immunity from prosecution aiding and in fact, instigating them to do so.

This is no more a "loophole" in the law than those same agents going to someone out in the sticks and asking them to grow pot or cook methamphetamine for them. "Hey, break the law, pleeeeeze? I'll make it worth your while...!" Guess we'd call that one the "Dumb Hillbilly Loophole?"

There is a difference between what is said in order to raise the ire of the uninformed masses and what is really happening.

----------------------

Look, here's a case in point: In Maryland, the law is stricter than in most places with regards to "regulated" firearms and "high-capacity" magazines. But the laws are very badly/ineffectively written. In one case, a Mini-14 with a folding stock is a "Regulated" firearm, meaning the sale must be subject to a background check and 7 (14 in reality) day waiting period. But a Mini-14 in a fixed stock, or without a stock, is a cash-and-carry sale. So, a dealer can offer to sell you a Mini-14 with a folding stock, remove it from its stock, sell you the rifle "over the counter" and then sell you the stock. No waiting period required. Put the rifle back together in the parking lot and head for the range. No laws are broken.

In the case of high-cap magazines, in MD it is illegal to buy, sell, rent, loan, give, offer to buy, offer to sell, etc., etc. any firearm magazine holding more than 20 rounds. But possession and use of them is legal. And...it is also legal to drive over the state line into PA, DE, VA, etc. and buy as many as you want there. Hence, there is no real prohibition on those magazines except on paper.

Those are examples of real "loopholes" in the law. The intent of the law is completely thwarted, but the law is not actually broken at all.

See the difference?

I'm sorry to raise a ruckus by using the wrong terms for FTF, but the point is real.Nope, the point is sensationalism and misdirection. "We've GOT to close the LOOPHOLE!" is just a disingenuous subterfuge to convince Mr. and Mrs. America that there is some glaring need for a new law to make them safer, when the problem these folks are claiming to care about is already completely addressed by existing laws. The fact that the law may be ignored or ineffectively enforced is not mentioned. No, we need a NEW law that will solve this "problem" ... and, oh by the way, it will also rescind a few more degrees of the freedoms we have left. But that's o.k., right? Because this new law will finally make us safe because the dreaded "loophole" is closed.

Absurd. And clear, blatant propaganda. You can accomplish a lot more, politically, with lies and exaggerations and insinuations than you can with truth, clarity, and reason.

We should be careful with the words we use. Our opponents sure choose theirs with great care.

--------------------

If you made a private deal, you may not sell to someone you know is a prohibited person. For me, that would require asking. For you, maybe not.
So ask. That's fine, and your right. You ask, "are you a prohibited person?" They say, "No." You sell them the firearm. You're fulfilling the law -- completely. Now, is that a loophole in the law?

Ignition Override
March 19, 2011, 09:54 PM
I just read posts #13-#29. You gents all made excellent descriptions. Earlier, on the way to dinner another thought came to mind.

Despite the illegality of personal sales at gun shows nearby in MS, AL, or AR etc, is the so-called "loophole" really just something which the ATF does not want to bother with because of the expense, manpower and time required?

It's my impression that despite the prohibition, the ATF has chosen not to enforce such personal sales involving law-abiding US citizens (for decades?), which gives the image of clear toleration.

Sam1911
March 19, 2011, 10:42 PM
is the so-called "loophole" really just something which the ATF does not want to bother with because of the expense, manpower and time required?Are you asking why the laws against sales between residents of different states are not more heavily enforced? Probably a mix of these reasons, and that we as a society really don't want government agents prying into private business and/or entrapping folks (a'la Bloomsburg's agents) into breaking the law. For arrests to be made, there is supposed to be some probable cause for an officer to believe that a specific person committed a specific crime. That requires elocutable evidence. Evidence that would presumably have to be obtained through either sting operations or surveillance of otherwise unoffensive private citizens, waiting to see if they to screw up. The public generally dislikes such things.

The so-called "loophole" which might have existed for decades (?) seems to consist of a total lack of enforcement, unless illegal aliens or felons seem to be the prospective buyers.Well, it certainly didn't exist before 1968. Up to that time we got along just fine without having to have federal licenses to sell guns and prohibitions on whom could purchase them where. We had laws that prohibited crimes, not gun sales. Then we had a few high-profile murders of public figures and passed these laws to prevent folks from doing that kind of thing. (Buying and selling, that is -- can't pass a law that keeps anyone from murdering someone, obviously.)

But there isn't a total lack of enforcement. Folks do go to jail for these things, and frequently. The ATF does set up stings and busts. But, despite the Brady Bunch's hyperbole, private sales at gun shows don't keep them awake at nights. Jim from MI who sells Joe from AL a bolt-action rifle face-to-face is pretty small potatoes. Not only are their crimes hard to detect/prove, but the ATF really does have a lot more important things to do than try to nail a couple of good ol' boys who didn't know the law. They do catch a few from time to time, but they've got bigger fish to fry, generally. From time to time you'll read reports of someone convicted for buying tens or hundreds of Glocks or High Points and reselling them to local gang members or whatever. That's the stuff the ATF would rather spend their resources to stop.

newfalguy101
March 19, 2011, 10:49 PM
I didnt read all the post so this MAY have been addressed, its entirely possible that the guys buying guns outside in the line are FFL holders, which makes it legal, or they may be residents of the state and buying from other residents of the same state, again perfectly legal

eye5600
March 20, 2011, 11:50 AM
Are you asking why the laws against sales between residents of different states are not more heavily enforced?

A bunch of reasons.

I'm not sure of this but the law may not be broken until the gun is taken back to the home state. An NY resident may be able to buy and use a gun in Virginia legally, but have it become a crime only when he takes it home. Anyone know?

The Feds don't enforce state law and the states don't enforce Federal law. What happens at the gun show may not be a Federal violation. Again, I don't know if this is the case.

Law enforcement organizations divide their agents into groups looking for different crimes. Such a group will tend to ignore violations outside their area unless they are very serious. In the example cited above, the ATF guy was concerned with semi-auto rifles. It's like a vice cop not making a drug bust because he's looking for hookers.

There are a lot of laws that are not directly enforced unless the person is being prosecuted for some other crime. Then it's added on to increase the DAs bargaining power in plea negotiations, and/or to increase the sentence.

For example, you are not likely to get arrested for carrying an "illegal" knife, but if you have such a knife on you when arrested for something else, it makes things worse.

dogtown tom
March 20, 2011, 12:12 PM
eye5600 :....I'm not sure of this but the law may not be broken until the gun is taken back to the home state.
Nope. Federal law doesn't mention taking the gun back to your home state. As has been mentioned a half dozen times in this thread already.......Federal law prohibits the the transfer of firearms between nonlicensees who are not residents of the state where the sale occurs. The violation occurs at the time of sale.

Sam1911
March 20, 2011, 12:20 PM
I'm not sure of this but the law may not be broken until the gun is taken back to the home state. An NY resident may be able to buy and use a gun in Virginia legally, but have it become a crime only when he takes it home.No, but I think I know what you're thinking of.
First off, a resident of one state MAY legally buy a long gun from a DEALER in another state, use it there, take it home, etc. (So long as the laws of both states are followed.)

NO resident of one state who is not an FFL dealer may sell a firearm to a resident of another state. The crime is two federal felonies -- one for the buyer, one for the seller, and the crime is the point of sale, not travel later.

Here's the weird one that might be what's confusing you: A resident of one state may sell a firearm to another resident of his state while both of them are in another state. However, federal law makes it illegal for the buyer to bring that firearm back into his home state. The seller is off the hook but the buyer is committing a felony.

The Feds don't enforce state law and the states don't enforce Federal law. What happens at the gun show may not be a Federal violation. Again, I don't know if this is the case.I think we've covered this to the point of exhaustion. Federal law is all we're talking about here. If a resident of one state sells a gun to a resident of another state without going through a dealer for the transfer -- whether at a gun show or in one's living room -- both of them break federal law.

There are a lot of laws that are not directly enforced unless the person is being prosecuted for some other crime. Then it's added on to increase the DAs bargaining power in plea negotiations, and/or to increase the sentence.And this is certainly true. "Gun crime" violations are the most plea-bargained-away crimes anywhere. It often seems the only way to get prosecuted for a gun crime is if there was nothing else that would stick.

NavyLCDR
March 20, 2011, 12:25 PM
Nope. Federal law doesn't mention taking the gun back to your home state

I am afraid you are mistaken.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

(a) It shall be unlawful—

(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;

Now... the seller commits the felony at the time of the sale:

(a) It shall be unlawful—

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides;

dogtown tom
March 20, 2011, 02:59 PM
NavyLT Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
Nope. Federal law doesn't mention taking the gun back to your home state

I am afraid you are mistaken.
Not in the context of his statement.
He is under the impression that no violation occurs until the firearm is transported back to his home state.
The violation occurs immediately on transfer between the two nonresidents.

Two different federal laws.

22-rimfire
March 20, 2011, 03:22 PM
Sam1911 said... When we beg the government to not pass new gun control legislation but to enforce existing gun laws, guess who those laws would be enforced upon? Those many thousands of "us," -- friends, brothers, hunting pals, grand-dads, ... even ourselves if we're not careful -- who never knew the law and assumed the law was "common sense" stuff that would really only effect "bad people." If we ever get past the "talking points" phase with our request that the gov't enforce existing laws, we're going to see a lot of perfectly innocuous people caught in a terrible place.

We owe it to ourselves and our shooting "community" as a whole to educate one another and make sure these "details" aren't STOP falling through the cracks.

This is so true. I recall years ago giving my Dad a revolver when I had moved away to another state. I was visiting and just handed it to him. Quite frankly, I didn't know the law at that time. It was not a common sense thing as common sense suggested that I could give my Dad anything I want to.

There has to be some easy way to educate the general population on this issue as enforcement could very easily implicate some very law abiding citizens who simply don't know the law.

NavyLt said...The private seller is actually under NO obligation to verify the state of residence of the buyer.

This is also true. The main liability is with the buyer if they mis-represent themselves for a FTF sale to an out of state resident.

I live in TN and I recall folks at gunshows saying they could get really good prices at shows on shotguns at GA shows. At that time I believed that it was legal to buy or sell long guns FTF in any state but not handguns. But it is legal to purchase directly from a FFL dealer.

Added: To me, it would be far easier to simply change the law to the following: FTF gun sales are legal between two people as long as the buyer is legally able to own the firearm in his state. Out of state sales at a FFL dealer are legal as long as the 4473 is completed and the buyer can own the firearm in his/her state and passes the NICS check. The NICS check is generally a national check. So it should work like a charm.

If you enjoyed reading about "Explain the "gun show" sales out of state, versus other FTF deals There." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!