black powder cartridge firearms


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Busyhands94
March 21, 2011, 02:40 PM
does anybody know if it is legal to buy a black powder cartridge firearm without an FFL or a waiting period?

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Oyeboten
March 21, 2011, 03:57 PM
Who would be making the - in this case, Legal - distinction that a Metallic Cartridge Arm is 'Black Powder'? Or only capable of being firesd with Black Powder?

Too, Federal Laws regarding Fire Arms of all sorts, and, State Laws, and County Ordinances, are not always the same or in agreement as for how various kinds of Arms are recognised or Catagorized..

Far as I know, anyone in full possesion of their Civil Rights may obtain and own Muzzle Loading Arms, with no NICS or Waiting period as far as Federal Law, but State and County regulations can complicate this sometimes by adding additional obligations.

Under Federal Law, I believe the same is true for Metallic Cartridge Arms made prior to 1898 as far as no NICS and the freedom to ship and receive privately without the mediacy of an FFL, but State Laws and County Ordinances will usually differ on some aspects of posession and or how the Arm is classified.

In Clark County Nevada where I live, even a Match Lock or Wheel Lock or Flint Lock Pistol has to be Registered with the County Sheriff, or else it is a crime to own or posess.

As far as I recall, Private persons in posession of their full Civil Rights are permitted to ship and receive Muzzle Loading and also pre-1898 Arms through the regular Mail with no need of using an FFL as mediary.

Foto Joe
March 21, 2011, 05:41 PM
Oyeboten hit the nail on the head, antiques are "non-guns". Now having said that, don't count on ANY dealer selling you one without paperwork. Cabela's for example has a policy that if it's in their gun library (where they keep the stuff most of us can't afford), it has to have paperwork, i.e. background check etc. to purchase it no matter when it was made. I found this out the hard way last summer in Billings Montana attempting to purchase a Baby Dragoon from Cabelas with a Wyoming drivers license. Ain't gonna happen!!

As far as modern guns are concerned, just because it chambers a historical Black Powder cartridge doesn't mean it's a Black Powder gun. To my knowledge, all cartridge firearms produced nowadays are proofed for smokeless, period. It doesn't matter if you're gonna shoot cotton balls out of it, the maker proofed it for smokeless therefore it's a GUN if it takes a cartridge.

So, I guess the quick answer to your question is that there is no such thing as a modern Black Powder Cartridge gun. Some of us just like to feed them their original diet.

mykeal
March 21, 2011, 08:10 PM
Some sites dedicated to the discussion and enjoyment of firearms contain the wording of the Second Amendment in a header or title page. I think the muzzleloading sites should add the following to their title pages:

From Title 18 of the US Code, Chapter 44:

Section 921, Definitions

Paragraph (a) As used in this chapter -

...

(3) The term "firearm" means -

(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will, or is designed to, or may be readily converted to expel a projectile by means of an explosive;

(B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon;

(C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or

(D) any destructive device.

Such term does not include an antique firearm.

...

(16) The term "antique firearm" means -

(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or

(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica -

(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition or,

(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade or,

(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For the purposes of this subparagraph, the term "antique firearm" shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechlock, or any combination thereof.

andrewstorm
March 22, 2011, 04:53 PM
STATES THAT ANY FIREARM made BEFORE 1899,IS AN ANTIQUE AND THEREFORE EXZEMPT UNDER THE PROVISIONS OF THE GUN CONTROL ACT OF 1968,THE LEGISLATIVE INTENT BEING THAT THE CUTOFF DATE BE AROUND THE TIME AMERICAN ARMS MANUFACTURERS STARTED USING SEMI SMOKLESS POWDER.AND THEN ABOUT 1900 THE MODERN FULLY SMOKELESS CARTRIDGES SUCH AS 38 SPECIAL WENT INTO FULL PRODUCTION.STATE LAWS VARY your state police most likely have a firearms f a q section on thier website,as michigan does, check it out.

ClemBert
March 22, 2011, 06:27 PM
does anybody know if it is legal to buy a black powder cartridge firearm without an FFL or a waiting period?

If it can shoot black powder cartridges then it can shoot smokeless cartridges. This is a generalization based on logical deduction from commonly known facts here and elsewhere. The statement is not an end-all.

However, from the point of view that this unknown firearm my be classified as an antique/relic (per Federal rules/regulations/guidelines) you'd still have to have a Federal C&R (curios and relics) License to bypass the FFL. A "waiting period" is typically a state or local statute so for a lot of us it doesn't apply but may apply to you.

So, the answer is NO to your question.

mykeal
March 22, 2011, 11:50 PM
you'd still have to have a Federal C&R (curios and relics) License to bypass the FFL.
???
If it was manufactured before 1898, no FFL (Type 01 or Type 03) transfer is necessary. The Type 03 license applies to firearms over 50 years old &R list, regardless of type or age of cartridge, if any.

andrewstorm
March 23, 2011, 10:05 AM
under federal law,any replica that was designed for a cartridge that is no longer manufactured in the this country,and not readily available thru the ordinary channels of commercial trade,is exempt from any kind of licensing on the federal level,as are pre 1899 antiques,your 45 B P M chambering having never been manufactured commercially,would in theory also be an exempt chambering as long as its in a replica gun,you really should get a correctly head stamped box of cartridges,after all you invented it.the c & r licence is only for modern firearms that have been deemed curious or relics by the atf,example a ww1 broom handle Mauser that has been in a significant battle and damaged and captured would be a curio & relic, a revolver that belonged to F D R would be a would be a curio,being more than 50 yrs old and being worth more than others like it because it belonged to F D R and no longer available in its original configuration,the curio language was confused by the a t f wrongly classifying antiques as curios and relics a few years back ,they have now corrected the error,the text is in batf guidelines.

arcticap
March 23, 2011, 12:54 PM
under federal law,any replica that was designed for a cartridge that is no longer manufactured in the this country,and not readily available thru the ordinary channels of commercial trade,is exempt from any kind of licensing on the federal level,as are pre 1899 antiques,your 45 B P M chambering having never been manufactured commercially,would in theory also be an exempt chambering as long as its in a replica gun,

The .45BPM was never discontinued or is a cartridge that is no longer manufactured, but rather is readily available by anyone with a case trimmer. The .460 S&W Magnum case may even fit in the chamber, or other common brass cases may fit for all we know.

Since in reality the .45BPM wildcat can very well be readily available through the normal channels of commercial trade, the chances are that an assembled gun chambered for that cartridge is not exempt from licensing requirements.
Why risk going to jail over selling what's possibly a non-exempt pistol?
It would be best to get a written BATF ruling.
Anyone can request one and it doesn't take very long to get a reply from them.

ClemBert
March 23, 2011, 12:56 PM
If it was manufactured before 1898, no FFL (Type 01 or Type 03) transfer is necessary. The Type 03 license applies to firearms over 50 years old &R list, regardless of type or age of cartridge, if any.

I think you meant pre-January 1st, 1899 concerning the antique classification. The C&R list is not considered to be a complete list per the ATF:

"Firearms automatically attain curio or relic (C&R) status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF’s C&R list. "

Anyhow, andrewstorm jarred my memory is regard to the firestorm that erupted concerning the antiques versus curious and relics classification blunder of our wunderbar guberment. I've had my C&R for well over a decade and I honestly admit I haven't kept up with the back-n-forth over some of the hot issues that have been debated. I don't think I've ever expressed interest in or purchased anything pre-WW I with my C&R....not because there isn't kewl pre-WW I stuff out there but because I'd rather direct my $ to more affordable areas.

So, to the OP I change my answer depending on if said BP cartridge firearm has a receiver/frame serialized before January 1, 1899. ;)

andrewstorm
March 25, 2011, 12:39 PM
Manufactured means to make the cases,primers,bullets,by one manufacturer,with the intent to supply the ordinary channels of commercial trade,anything less is considered custom or specialty loading ,the part about no longer manufactured in this country is not to prohibit any person from obtaining the ammo for any given replica ,its legislative intent was that the ammo cannot be readily available thru the ordinary channels of commercial trade,and most limited runs of obsolete brass, loaded by specialty ammo loaders or re loaders does not constitute commercial manufacturing I've heard tell about the rifles uberti made in 44 Henry they are exempt from the gun control act of 1968 ,are they unfireable ,or could you arrange for a specialty ammo co.to make you some cartridges on a limited basis for your personal use, or display,?,the legislative intent was to stop felons from obtaining weapons,for which ammo is readily available, without going thru specialty channels of trade,not to stop collectors,from enjoying an obscure cartridge /arms experience.although i like only pre 1899 framed verifiable antiques for collecting i would much rather fire a replica,made of modern Steele. oh, and I could very well be president but today im not,just as the 45,bpm is not manufactured commercially today,nor is it available, thru the ordinary channels of commercial trade ,also who said anything about selling them? also so what if you could chamber another round in the 45 b p m,I was taught by my dad ,POLICE CHIEF never use any ammo that doesn't exactly match the markings on the barrel,to do otherwise would be very dangerous,and could result in death to shooter and bystanders. oboyten move the hell out of that comunist state / county today,register a flintlock? OBOY! all the above is strictly opinion and not intended to be advice.

SAA
March 25, 2011, 11:55 PM
So, what about all those cartridges that were not commercially availabe for some time, but now are. Would you have to prove you bought the gun before the ammunition made a commercial renaissance? Would the previously O.K. relic now be regulated and now you're in deep doo-doo to have it whether you realized it or not? What if another obsolete cartridge starts production tomorrow? Does the previously "antique firearm" become a firearm and fall under the GCA of 1968? Should we raise hell with the ammunition manufacturer for making it again? Just more confusing regulations.

scrat
March 26, 2011, 12:40 PM
Busy hands is in CA.

In CA any gun that uses a cartridge is subject to being treated like a normal firearm. REGARDLESS of what powder it uses. So if you buy an antique 45lc black powder cartridge firearm. you are subject to the same laws as buying a brand new 2011 off the shelf new modern firearm.

HOWEVER. if you were to buy a replica say 1851 replica cap and ball. This gun bought cap and ball is not subject to anything, purchase is made mail order face to face, anything. Then you purchase a drop in conversion cylinder to shoot modern cartridges then you just bypassed the law. Same time though while that cylinder is in the gun. Then any and all antique, pre 1899 black powder stuff just went out the window to the state of California. In the eyes of LEO or the DA you have a modern firearm in your possesion.

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