My step daughter was a victim....


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NavyLCDR
March 21, 2011, 05:58 PM
of public education indoctrination. I open carry everyday, wherever I go (except where prohibited by law, of course). My step daughter loves that I open carry.

She has to complete an 8th grade project about a controversial Constitutional subject. She chose the second amendment. She was at her biological dad's house this weekend working on the project and texted me for help:

Her: "would u find what the common good and individual rights r for having more firearm safety laws r??? and who is involved?

Me: "Sure. Send you something in a little bit in email."

Her: "i am trying to prove tht we should have more gun protection laws."

Me: "Is that the way you feel? Or do you think you have to prove that for the assignment? The evidence and studies show that Americans are safer where there are less gun control laws. It would be much easier to show that evidence, rather than trying to show that more gun control laws make people safer."

Her: "how does less gun control make people safer????"

Me: "I can send you the facts in email. The states that have more gun control laws have higher crime rates. In Washington D.C. the crime rate went up after their handgun ban. When the Supreme Court struck down the handgun ban, the crime rate went down. That's just a couple examples."

Her: "Ok I guess ill go with the less gun control"

We've all been together for about two years now, and I open carried on my first date with her mom. That just goes to show you the powerful indoctrination our kids are getting in public school. She thought that way even though she has seen me open carry daily, seen me interact with police.... When one guy said I should cover up my gun because his little girl asked him about it, my step daughter told me later I should have just told him that I was not a criminal and only criminals needed to hide their guns! :D

Anyway... I "armed" her with the facts, and showed her how the anti-gun groups twisted statistics to support their false opinions. Right now I think she is just being an eighth grader and just wants to get the project done to graduate, but I am sure some of it will sink in.

Don't let your guard down, folks.....

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CoRoMo
March 21, 2011, 06:14 PM
One of the million and a half reasons I'm going to do everything humanly possible to never subject my kids to the public school system.

Murphy4570
March 21, 2011, 06:36 PM
Catholic schools are much better in this regard. The one I went to was rather pro-gun, actually. One history teacher brought in an antique musket for a class on the Civil War.

dogtown tom
March 21, 2011, 07:28 PM
Your problem isn't the schools.....it's the community you chose to live in. Teachers and schools are simply a reflection of their community values. Antigun agendas don't exactly fly in my state, city or county.

I have two dozen customers who are employees of those public schools you dislike so much. I have another dozen or so who are the spouses of public school employees. Our school district has the NRA Eddie Eagle books in each of our elementary school libraries...and it's displayed, not hidden in the stacks.

One Texas ISD even allows teachers to carry concealed on campus.

Shawn Dodson
March 21, 2011, 07:36 PM
my step daughter told me later I should have just told him that I was not a criminal and only criminals needed to hide their guns!

She's one sharp thinker!

kayak-man
March 21, 2011, 08:08 PM
My high school was 50-50. It just wasn't really a big deal, because no one really brought it up. I remember one of my history/gov teachers saying that the second amendment was meant to protect our rights, but that it doesn't mean that we should be able to keep an AK-47 in a closet. For what its worth, he had us take the US Citizenship test for our final, and many of the questions asked what the most important part of the constitution was, or what part is most essential to ensuring freedom. I put "The Second Ammendment" for all of them :evil:

I remember another teacher telling us to hurry up and get out of the classroom because "My new shotgun came in today, and I want to go pick it up NOW!"

Sorry if that was a bit off topic.

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson

tkaction
March 21, 2011, 08:13 PM
32 years as a public school teacher and a lot of us in our school absolutely hold to our 2nd amend. rights. We even argue with the other side at lunch. All of us have carry permits. A lady came to present a teacher institute that was aimed at home and community safety. She stated that we should strive to make our community gun free and teach accordingly. The high school spanish teacher said she will never give up her AK and I told the lady that there were enough guns owned in the room to equip a small army. She never mentioned that issue again.
Upstate Pa. is no place for a liberal gun agenda!

J-Bar
March 21, 2011, 08:14 PM
My granddaughters are 6 and 11. They both enjoy helping me reload. Every time they visit, they ask me, "Papa, can we make a bullet?"

Excuse me while I encourage that...

NavyLCDR
March 21, 2011, 08:15 PM
Move here.....
Your problem isn't the schools.....it's the community you chose to live in. Teachers and schools are simply a reflection of their community values. Antigun agendas don't exactly fly in my state, city or county.


Thank you for the invite.... but..... you're in Texas. That's just a little bit incompatible with:

I open carry everyday, wherever I go

:D

Anyway... the school isn't 100% anti. Her science teacher approved a science project of hers to determine if a red dot site on a handgun contributed to more accurate shot placement. :D

Patriotme
March 21, 2011, 08:26 PM
My wife is a teacher and while she is pro gun and a NRA member most of her coworkers are anti gun, anti military and if you really pressed them on their views....anti America. They won't come out and say it but get them to answer a few leading questions and you'll see that they do not believe anything good has come out of this country.
But I'm getting a bit off target.
My daughter had a police officer speak to her Elementary School class one day. He told them that no one needed a gun or actually had the right to own one. Of course a large portion of the class came from hunting and gun owning families so the officer was suprised by all of the dissent that he got. I think his feelings were hurt.
I remember a day when my daughter came home and told us about a survey the kids were given in which they answered questions about whether they were Conservative or Liberal. One of the questions asked if you believe that everyone should be able to own a firearm. My daughter pointed out that Conservatives don't believe that criminals, crazies and children should be able to own guns. The teacher disagreed. She said that Conservatives believe that everyone should be able to own guns. Of course my daughter knew she was lying and twisting the facts.
Those in the education system are very biased, have no issue lying and are largely anti gun.
I can't wait until my daughter is in college. I can only imagine the indoctrination that they push on the students.

ZeBool
March 21, 2011, 08:30 PM
I was just about to comment on that. For being a pro gun state, and not tolerating "anti gun bs" you would think Texas would be an open carry state. Always boggles my mind.


She is lucky to have a knowledgeable and helpful step dad. It's great that you are able to get along with your step daughter. So very often that isn't the case unfortunately.

On the second thought maybe she is hustling you! She knows how pro gun you are and decided to fenangle info out of you!

yhtomit
March 21, 2011, 08:35 PM
It's a downside to Texas, it's true. (That open carry isn't legal.) It's actually been remarked on by several friends of mine who know I've lived there and plan to again. They've all been surprised when I explain that not only do Texans typically *not* wear guns around openly, but they're prohibited from doing so.

Something to help work on next time I live there :)

timothy

FIVETWOSEVEN
March 21, 2011, 08:39 PM
Catholic schools are much better in this regard.

The one near me is as far left as you can go, suprised that the Bible is still taught at that Catholic school. I myself am finishing up my Senior year at a Christian school that is the best place for a Christian to go to school, we even have a rifle team!

cassandrasdaddy
March 21, 2011, 09:35 PM
public schools here aren't anti

txhoghunter
March 21, 2011, 09:48 PM
An "anti" high school teacher of mine brought up gun control one class and, knowing class plans ahead of time, had prepared accordingly. Myself and other pro 2nd amendment classmates understood that less gun control had led to lower crime rates, but had not prepared examples and did not know any off of the top of our heads....

Long story short, that was a good class to be an anti in, and our teacher felt that she had won when the bell rang.
However, the next day guess who came to class with examples? And guess which teacher was speechless.....

No, we did not make it a slap in the face. We started class by saying that we had prepared, and were ready to defend what we felt was right, and that, being a government class, she should let us do so since she had been able to prepare for the previous class.

She most likely would have stopped us before we began, but our pro-gun principal was in the room when we began ;)

clancy12
March 21, 2011, 10:42 PM
I currently go to a public high school that is relatively liberal, ergo anti guns. The majority of my teachers lean to the left and make occasional comments about guns being bad, etcetera, and most of the textbooks are extremely liberal. Yet, my political beliefs are extremely right wing and pro gun. It doesn't matter what kind of indoctrination a school pumps into you, it's what your parents/home environment teach you. My parents have taught me about guns and the positive side of firearms as well as explaining their political beliefs to me from a very early age. This has had a much more profound impact on my mental views than public school ever has/will. I will keep this in mind when/if I become a parent.

Sky
March 21, 2011, 11:01 PM
NavyLt way to go++++++!

dogtown tom
March 21, 2011, 11:36 PM
A great teacher knows how to stimulate discussion & debate. Making an outrageous comment or taking an unpopular stance WILL do that. Don't take every word at face value.

My seventh grade geography teacher would argue that man didn't actually walk on the moon.....it was a NASA simulation that we saw the year before.
That led to some interesting parent meetings.:D

Owen Sparks
March 21, 2011, 11:42 PM
Libertarians support complete separation of school and state. Public school is based on a collectivist mindset that sees the individual as no better than the least member of society or the weakest link. Here is a prime example: When I was in high school one talented bad egg was drawing dirty cartoons on the bathroom walls of the principal pleasuring himself. The schools response was to make it against the rules for ANY student to have a magic marker at school. I nearly got suspended for having a magic marker in my back pocket even though I was in art class and on the way to an art project. My art teacher got me released with a warning. Gun laws are just like this. They presume everyone is a criminal before the fact based only on possession of a tool with the potential of misuse.

LawScholar
March 22, 2011, 12:03 AM
Owen Sparks, unfortunately, it seems like a lot of our laws are made using that public school mindset these days. One crazy guy shoots a congresswoman and legislators respond by trying to introduce legislation to take high-cap mags away from ~318,000,000 people.

orionengnr
March 22, 2011, 12:19 AM
Your problem isn't the schools.....it's the community you chose to live in. Teachers and schools are simply a reflection of their community values.
As much as I agree with your premise, I also believe that the solution is to push back against the status quo in anti-gun cities/states.

I'm not a militant Open Carry advocate per se (I'm not sure I would ever do it if it were legal here in Texas) but I would love to see the law passed to allow it.

If we can get the general population to quit fearing normal citizens who choose to protect themselves (and we can frame the discussion in these terms) we may begin to make some serious progress.

I am not an eloquent speaker, but I try to introduce one new shooter per month to the shooting sport (mostly co-workers). Start with (and remain focused on) safety, get them shooting a .22, and they will have fun.

Owen Sparks
March 22, 2011, 12:37 AM
Any time you are seen as part of a group, (society in this case), you are seen as no better than the least common denomonator of that group and laws are designed for the weakest link. Therefore, if there is one idiot who can't be trusted with a gun then NOBODY can have a gun except for the government of course. This is in direct opposition of the principle of "innocent until proven guilty" where the burden of proof is on the accuser (the government) rather than the individual who is now required to prove himself compitent and pay fees before being allowed to exercise a constitutional right.

JTHunter
March 22, 2011, 01:18 AM
Owen Sparks said: Gun laws are just like this. They presume everyone is a criminal before the fact based only on posession of a tool with the potential of misuse.

Any rule that removes the need for cognitive thought will frequently be abused. Look at the way the RIAA, Sony, Microsoft, and the MPAA treat their customers now.

JTHunter
March 22, 2011, 01:21 AM
tkaction said: The high school spanish teacher said she will never give up her AK and I told the lady that there were enough guns owned in the room to equip a small army.

WELL STATED! She probably turned as white as a sheet! :evil:

animator
March 22, 2011, 01:23 AM
Antigun agendas don't exactly fly in my state, city or county.






Except when you go try to get a form 1 signature. Couldn't get anyone in collin co. to sign one for me. That was disappointing.

dogtown tom
March 22, 2011, 02:25 AM
animator Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
Antigun agendas don't exactly fly in my state, city or county.
Except when you go try to get a form 1 signature. Couldn't get anyone in collin co. to sign one for me. That was disappointing.
Which isn't necessarily "anti gun".........it's more like "anti litigation". Cities won't let their employees sign....so your stuck with elected officials such as Sheriff Box who reportedly will only sign for those people who he knows personally.

InkEd
March 22, 2011, 11:53 AM
I did a speech in favor of less gun control in highschool. Got an "A" on it.

The common follow-up questions will be about keeping children safe and criminals getting guns. Mention that the majority if guns used in crimes are stolen or illegally obtained anyway. Child safety is the job of the parents. Kids can drink bleach and run with kitchen knives and end up just as dead. Are you going to ban them too? No. You're going to secure them properly and teach children about safety. An interesting fact, at the time (don't know if it still is true) was there were more deaths caused by heart problems and automobiles than guns the year before. Also, in Russia they had more murders committed than the US and even though they had very strict gun laws, criminals simply used knives and clubbing instruments to kill their victims.

rustedangel
March 22, 2011, 12:43 PM
I have been an adamant advocate of freedom since I became able to articulate opinions around the age of 12 or 13. The family I was raised in was very strongly individualist. I eventually migrated towards a more libertarian political philosophy while most of my family remains somewhat more on the economically liberal/social conservative end of the spectrum. I had many arguments in middle school, high school, and college about political issues. I think children are going to be exposed to ideas you agree with and disagree with no matter what, and the best thing to do is explain why you think the way you do and hope that they decide similarly.

TexasBill
March 22, 2011, 03:23 PM
Hey, NAVYLT, you did the right thing. That teacher will influence your step-daughter for a year; you'll influence her forever.

We're moderate liberals and all of my kids went through public schools without any apparent damage. Except for the older son, who's just not interested, they all know how to shoot and enjoy shooting. My younger daughter just turned 21 and attends a liberal university in Austin, one of the most liberal cities in Texas. She's considering getting her CHL.

RimfireChris
March 22, 2011, 03:49 PM
Thanks all of you. I don't have any of my own, but this was a good reminder that it's time to take my nephew shooting again. :D

NavyLCDR
March 22, 2011, 04:01 PM
Yeah, I don't think this was anything very strongly promoted in the school. I think it was the cumulation of years of subtle indoctrination. Neither of her parents are anti-s, but they were more of the keep guns for hunting type people.... until I showed up! :D

SSN Vet
March 22, 2011, 04:46 PM
if you want to get rid of the anti ding bats running the public schools...

1. Get involved at the local level. Communicate regularly, and positively with your kids teachers and principals. Let them know where you stand and that your families legal activities must not be discriminated against.

2. Support charter schools... as these help brake the NEA dominated monopoly on public schools

3. support school vaucher legislation, and tip the scale back towards affordable private education.

4. oppose legislation hostile to home schoolers

5. if it comes right down to it, support repeal of collective bargaining rights for teachers

The problem (IMO) is not public education, but rather is the NEAs (teachers union) virtual total monopoly on all facets of public education.

wild cat mccane
March 22, 2011, 04:53 PM
amazing how this thread is still up.

For your information about the bible and liberals...

if 90% of america is christian, and there are equal numbers of liberals and concervatives....if all 10% of non christians where liberals, more then 50% of liberals still are christian. Use your brain.

VT Deer Hunter
March 22, 2011, 05:40 PM
Good getting more kids into shooting and firearms.

TexasBill
March 22, 2011, 07:15 PM
if you want to get rid of the anti dingbats running the public schools...

1. Get involved at the local level. Communicate regularly, and positively, with your kids' teachers and principals. Let them know where you stand and that your family's legal activities must not be discriminated against.

Good answer. Becoming involved with your children's education is not only important, it's one of a good parent's responsibilities.

2. Support charter schools as these help break the NEA-dominated monopoly on public schools.

Charter schools don't have a track record that indicates they're a miracle cure for the problems in education.

3. Support school voucher legislation, and tip the scale back towards affordable private education.

Swell idea! How? Public schools across the nation are having to lay off teachers and cut or curtail programs because governments are strapped for cash. Where is the money for these vouchers coming from? How are you going to persuade private schools to become more affordable? And why would they, if they could? Or are we going back to the same magic well we went to for the school voucher money? Private schools can provide the quality of education that they do because they don't have to take every student who shows up at registration.

4. Oppose legislation hostile to home schoolers.

Haven't heard of any legislation hostile to home schoolers but I agree home schooling is every parent's right.

5. If it comes right down to it, support repeal of collective bargaining rights for teachers

So the answer is to take away their rights? Interesting concept - for an American concerned about his own.

The problem (IMO) is not public education, but rather it is the NEA's (teachers union) virtual total monopoly on all facets of public education.

Not really. The NEA has what power it has because it was given to them by all the parents who see school as free day care; who abdicated their parental responsibilities and put it on teachers to inculcate the values and beliefs that should be learned at home. That's one of the biggest complaints teachers have: they can't teach what they were hired to teach because over years of neglect, they have all this other garbage to deal with.

The NEA can issue all the anti-gun baloney it wants; as we've seen in just this thread, it doesn't mean every teacher or school administrator falls in lock-step with it and the best way to fight those that do is to provide them with students who can challenge their dogma because their parents have taught them about the opposing viewpoint. Just as NAVYLT did.

youngda9
March 22, 2011, 07:40 PM
Swell idea! How? Public schools across the nation are having to lay off teachers and cut or curtail programs because governments are strapped for cash.
And yet schools get more $ per student than ever...and are not turning out a better product. More funding clearly does not equal a more educated student.


So the answer is to take away their rights? Interesting concept - for an American concerned about his own.
I believe collective barganing "rights" are just contractually negotiated terms. These "rights" can be eliminated by ripping up a contract...and therefore aren't really "rights" as their name implies.

wild cat mccane
March 22, 2011, 09:21 PM
Um schools better be getting more money each year...correct me if I am wrong, there are more students each year. Population studies.

Or how about technology has increased, at increased costs? Come back with sense please.

animator
March 22, 2011, 10:04 PM
Which isn't necessarily "anti gun".........it's more like "anti litigation". Cities won't let their employees sign....so your stuck with elected officials such as Sheriff Box who reportedly will only sign for those people who he knows personally.




That's what he said in some back-and-forth email correspondence. I offered to meet him and give him the chance to spend some time getting to know me, but never got a response. I'm in Dallas Co. now, and have pretty much written off ever getting a signature... lol. Trusts make for a good alternative... :)

Ironclad
March 22, 2011, 11:10 PM
Your problem isn't the schools.....it's the community you chose to live in. Teachers and schools are simply a reflection of their community values. Antigun agendas don't exactly fly in my state, city or county.

Exactly. The public middle school I went to required hunters ed. / gun safety classes for all 7th graders. My public high school had a trap team, which I joined. Pretty much any teacher would talk hunting with you. None of the officers who came to talk over the years were the slightest bit anti-gun. I was never told once that guns were bad or should be regulated more, in 13 years of public education.

csbassplayer2003
March 23, 2011, 03:41 AM
We've all been together for about two years now, and I open carried on my first date with her mom

LOL. Not to get off topic but how on earth did that one go over? I can just imagine how that first conversation went...

TexasBill
March 23, 2011, 09:13 AM
And yet schools get more $ per student than ever...and are not turning out a better product. More funding clearly does not equal a more educated student.

Funny thing is, I have heard this argument for the majority of my 61 years. It's never as good as it was in the "goodle days" and it always costs more.

IMHO, it all comes down to how much money is really spent on instruction of the skills and knowledge needed and how much is spent on the latest "wonder curriculum" or new technology. And believe me, having spent some time in the wonderful world of educational technology, it's not all the NEA. You wouldn't believe the number of expensive consultants and soi-disant experts who get involved with this stuff. These guys sold a mess of pottage to governments, school boards and such that would choke a horse.

Furthermore, teachers are now "teaching to test." It seems like the entire focus of education is now tied to student performance on government-mandated tests. I am not sure what was wrong with the old benchmarks - you either passed the final or didn't - but we've tied teacher pay to those tests. Seems to me that untold generations of children learned just fine without them.

I believe collective barganing "rights" are just contractually negotiated terms. These "rights" can be eliminated by ripping up a contract...and therefore aren't really "rights" as their name implies.

Depends on the state. In most states, employees do have the right to organize and require collective bargaining. In some states, public employees, which may or may not include teachers, do not have the right to form a traditional labor union.

Unions are a favored punching bag these days but the reality is that they have done an awful lot of good, especially for hourly workers. You might be surprised at the number of conditions we now take for granted, like a 40-hour work week and overtime, that came about because of unions. ON the other hand, they have been shooting themselves in the foot for quite a while, especially the more militant unions like the NEA, UAW and Teamsters.

NavyLCDR
March 23, 2011, 10:29 AM
LOL. Not to get off topic but how on earth did that one go over? I can just imagine how that first conversation went...

We had been corresponding for months prior. I was in Iraq when we started emailing each other, so she was prepared for it. Never a problem from day one. A couple of her family members asked her about it after they met me and she just told them I believed in the 2nd amendment right to self-protection and everybody was OK with it from there on.

ZCORR Jay
March 23, 2011, 11:03 AM
NavyLT
Even if she was just doing the work to get it done hopefully some of what you said sinks in and she starts to see how people can manipulate stats to push their case.

NavyLCDR
March 23, 2011, 11:30 AM
NavyLT
Even if she was just doing the work to get it done hopefully some of what you said sinks in and she starts to see how people can manipulate stats to push their case.

Yes, I agree. We all know teenagers have big eyes and ears and they take in a lot more than we would ever suspect.

jcb
March 23, 2011, 12:47 PM
I am a public school teacher. I never miss an opportunity to indoctrinate my students to a pro gun point of view. I notify them a week in advance of up-coming gun shows in our area. The school I teach in is pretty pro gun. We have about 1,000 students and are in a midwestern region of the country.

rustedangel
March 23, 2011, 01:54 PM
I apologize for continuing the off topic discussion, but this topic (public education spending) is incredibly important and there are some things I need to say.

http://wac.0873.edgecastcdn.net/800873/blog/wp-content/uploads/Fed-Spend-Ach-Pct-Chg-Cato-Andrew-Coulson.jpg
This chart give a fairly good visual overview of the results of the US's education "investment" in the past 4 decades. Because it was created to highlight specifically the poor return on increased federal spending, it gives a somewhat inflated view of the increased spending. Specifically, during the same period total real spending per pupil (in 2008-2009 school year dollars) increased from 5,671 (1970-1971) to 12,922 (2007-2008, most current available), which is only a 128% increase. So, wild cat mccane is completely incorrect - spending is not increasing to match increases in the number of students. For each student government on average spends 128% more now than they did in 1970, adjusted for inflation. Don't take my word for it, the numbers are publicly available from the NCES here: http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d10/tables/dt10_190.asp (table 190, 2010 digest)

I agree with TexasBill that "teaching to the test" is a bad idea and makes for bad education. I think focusing on this too much misses the point, however. Test results are a metric, one metric, that can be used to evaluate the quality of the results of our education process. Other metrics include graduation rates, college attendance rates, lifetime earnings, economic growth, productivity increases, and myriad other things. Many of these are difficult to measure, have significant time delays between cause (education success or failure) and effect, but that does not mean we should not examine them. I think most people would agree that education in the US is struggling to maintain an advantage or keep up with education in other developed nations. Most often the response called for is to invest more money, but I propose that perhaps throwing more money at the issue is not going to solve the problem.

In almost every other sphere of life we allow people to freely engage in enterprise, and whether or not they produce things consumers like determines their success. In the 2 sectors where we have the most government involvement, education and health care, we have consistently increasing costs. Instead of adding government involvement, I think we should consider moving the other way, towards more of a free market system. You could still publicly fund K-12 education, and simply issue each parent a voucher for X amount for the education of their child for that year, and allow them to pick the school they send their kid to. This way, schools would have to compete with each other for business, crappy schools would go out of business, and schools would fire or train bad teachers since they would be unable to compete if they were burdened with bad teachers. Good teachers would also get rewarded for their performance, because otherwise competing schools would recruit them away with more money. We should not be trying to decide top down what works, whether the decision comes from politicians, education studies centers, or voters. Planned economies do not work. We should give parents control of their money and let them make the decisions that are best for their needs and their students. When you increase spending per student by 128% and have no gains to show for it, I think it is worth at least considering alternatives, even if they are radical :D

lloveless
March 23, 2011, 02:40 PM
There was a time when students took guns to school to shoot supper on the way home sfter school. Spending for education merely means more administrators, and office equipment. The teachers and children see precious little of it.
ll

Ironclad
March 23, 2011, 03:18 PM
Rustedangel - I hate to argue on the side of schools, but the reading, math, and science scores are a very poor indicator of what is actually going on. Of course the general education scores will remain fairly constant over the years. Teenager don't change, and most will put in a minimal effort on gen. eds. What is important is the more elective courses.

I graduated in 2009 from a public highschool. While I was there, I took several computer courses, multiple engineering courses with 3D modeling equipment, upper level physics courses, and a collision repair course with state of the art tools and equipment.

All of these classes require a teacher with more training than average, and a significantly higher equipment investment than Gen. Eds.. However, none show up in standardized test scores. They did however help me prepare for engineering school more than the gen eds did.

None of this was available when my dad went to the same school in the 1980s.

dogtown tom
March 23, 2011, 07:20 PM
rustedangel I apologize for continuing the off topic discussion, but this topic (public education spending) is incredibly important and there are some things I need to say.....
Nice graph. But it doesn't begin to tell the story of how Federal "education $$$" are spent. Two programs that receive much of their funding from those Federal dollars:

-free and reduced lunch
-special education

Prior to passage of the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act precious little Federal dollars were allocated to special education. Guess what year IDEA was passed? 1990, right at the bottom of your graph. Federal $$$ have provided many of the services special needs student require (which in most cases mean low teacher:student ratios. As the numbers of students identified with special educational needs increased....so does the Fed $$$.

Unfortunately, too many parents are unable, unwilling or incapable of taking care of their childrens basic needs: food, clothing and shelter.......guess who is the one who gets to feed those children breakfast AND lunch? The school system. And the Feds help pay for it.

Bottom line? Statistics don't lie....but they don't tell the complete story either. Using "total dollars spent" vs "student acheivement" is misleading at best. I would love to see the stats on "general education instructional dollars" vs "student achievement"

I would bet that ZERO dollars were spent on firearms education other than the Eddie Eagle publications. I wonder how a firearms safety demo in every public school would go over? I think the Brady bunch would stroke out.

CZguy
March 23, 2011, 10:03 PM
Dogtown Tom,

Prior to passage of the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act precious little Federal dollars were allocated to special education. Guess what year IDEA was passed? 1990, right at the bottom of your graph. Federal $$$ have provided many of the services special needs student require (which in most cases mean low teacher:student ratios. As the numbers of students identified with special educational needs increased....so does the Fed $$$.



The truth of where the government spends money is very difficult to understand. I'm all for spending money for Special Ed, but in my local school district we have too many upper administrative people driving free cars and talking on district funded cell phones. :scrutiny:

I think that any government bureaucracy is unable to slow or stop it's growth. This must be done externally.

I think that we can all agree that public schools are currently spending more money with less results than they have in the past. Where we may differ though, are the reasons for this. I suspect that the break down of the family in our society can play a pretty important roll.

Ironclad
March 23, 2011, 10:50 PM
I think that we can all agree that public schools are currently spending more money with less results than they have in the past.

I think they are spending more money with more results. Look at the course catalogs for high schools now. I bet they are twice as thick as they were 20 years ago. Schools teach kids about equipment that didnt even exist 20 years ago. And all the computer stuff costs a ton, but its pretty much essential for kids to learn if they want a decent job these days.

Ironclad
March 23, 2011, 10:52 PM
I would bet that ZERO dollars were spent on firearms education other than the Eddie Eagle publications.

Like I said earlier in this thread, my middle school had gun safety class and my high school had a trap team. Both public

Murphy4570
March 24, 2011, 03:13 AM
So the answer is to take away their rights? Interesting concept - for an American concerned about his own.

Be careful, friend. You are dangerously close to supporting the communist teacher's unions.

Public employees are servants of the People. Teachers are public servants. They are paid through YOUR taxes. Public servants have no right to unionize and strong-arm the People whom they serve, same as all other public servants, to include all the representatives we directly and indirectly elect to public office.

SSN Vet
March 24, 2011, 11:15 AM
In most states, employees do have the right to organize and require collective bargaining

Do some homework and I believe you will find that prior to the 1950s the number of states that allowed public employees collective bargaining was ZERO. Wisconsin was the first, and that's why the events there today are so symbolic and significant.

Haven't heard of any legislation hostile to home schoolers but I agree home schooling is every parent's right.

Michigan took some unfortunate family through a ten year legal battle in their effort to squash home schooling. The Michigan supreme court finally ruled in the families behalf. Now New Hampshire is going after them. The assault usually is veiled in "regulation" (i.e. you can only home school if you are a state certified teacher... who controls teacher certification? the state branch of the NEA)

Not really. The NEA has what power it has because it was given to them by all the parents who see school as free day care; who abdicated their parental responsibilities and put it on teachers to inculcate the values and beliefs that should be learned at home. That's one of the biggest complaints teachers have: they can't teach what they were hired to teach because over years of neglect, they have all this other garbage to deal with.

Amen.... our society is simply reaping what it has sewn.


I'm not down on teachers.... I'm not down on public schools....

I'm not really down on unions either.... it's a free country. Workers are free to organize and negotiate for more, and owners are free to shut down their plants and move to greener pastures...

I am big time down on the NEA! and any other union that attempts to hijack democratic institutions and manipulate them for the gain of a few.... it's extortion and manipulation of the democratic process... pure and simple. It's also indicative of the weakness of Democracy when people are short sighted and unwise. 51% of an unwise population can use their majority to rack up a huge debt and give away the money to the electorate, thinking that somebody else (that rich guy) will pay the bill.

As John Adams was want to say.... "facts are stubborn things", and all this foolishness is now coming back to bite us in the collective rear end.

Soon enough public employees will be the only ones left with insurance and any type of pension..... but who's going to be paying the bills?

Irate masses can get nasty.... no wonder they want a disarmed population.

merlinfire
March 24, 2011, 02:20 PM
The high school spanish teacher said she will never give up her AK and I told the lady that there were enough guns owned in the room to equip a small army. She never mentioned that issue again

Nice!

TheCracker
March 24, 2011, 02:24 PM
Edit

Deltaboy
March 24, 2011, 07:36 PM
The Only Anti I ran into that my HS lasted 1 year and was gone. The Rural Ranching District I work in is pretty cool about Guns.

Neverwinter
March 25, 2011, 02:17 AM
Let's face it, our nation has an adversarial approach to education. We encourage ignorance. Naturally, that desire for ignorance extends to knowledge of guns and gun control.

For every person that opposes Eddie Eagle, there's another that opposes sex ed. There are efforts to force schools to have a science curriculum discussing creationism. How many posts have you seen which were dismissive to the value of a college education? A prominent Board of Education wanted to remove Thomas Jefferson from the history books. The lack of formal education by one popular electoral candidate was considered a quality. Intellectual has become a derogatory term.

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