Wait, what?


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tooltech
March 22, 2011, 12:12 AM
I had someone make a comment to me this morning that left me flabbergasted. A sales rep came in this morning, and after making his pitch, asked if I knew where he could shoot Rimfire Challenge. After I said I didn't know, we talked about shooting and ranges in general. Then he dropped this "bomb": "I have an opportunity to buy a gun with a confirmed kill" he said. Ok, I'm thinking milsurp, police trade-in, something. No, someone used the gun to kill themselves, and he thought that would be cool to own.

I'm not easily creeped out, but that has bugged me all day. I'm not superstitious, and the fact That someone used a weapon on themselves or someone else would not deter me. But to place emphasis on that aspect bothered me.

Is it just me?

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Larry E
March 22, 2011, 12:20 AM
Sort of like owning the guard dog that just killed someone IMHO. Not interested. Very strange lad IMHO.

towboat_er
March 22, 2011, 12:22 AM
Not cool!!!..

Owen Sparks
March 22, 2011, 12:24 AM
A gun is a tool. Its past history has no impingment on the present. Tools are incapable of action of their own and past use, either good or evil should be accredited to the user not the tool. In other words, guns don't kill people, people kill people guns are just tools, no better or no worse than the man who uses them.

tooltech
March 22, 2011, 12:25 AM
Very strange lad IMHO

Sadly, he's older than me, and I'm pushing 50.

orionengnr
March 22, 2011, 12:28 AM
Anyone who has that fascination is more than a bit disturbed. Not to put too fine a point on it, but IMHO, that boy is Foxtrot Uniform like a football bat.

I would avoid that individual in the future, and wouldn't be shy about telling him why.

Unless you care to encourage him to duplicate the previous owner's actions, and do us all a favor. Not THR, I know...and this will probably earn me my second violation...but we don't need people like him as part of the RKBA world.

N003k
March 22, 2011, 12:55 AM
It's all fine to say that the past of the gun doesn't matter, and I agree, I'm well aware several of my mil-surps may have been used to kill someone...

However to actively search for a gun BECAUSE you know it's been used to kill someone? There isn't anything wrong with the gun...but the person buying it has some issues in that case IMO.

Diggers
March 22, 2011, 01:53 AM
Yeah that's weird.

Guns are tools yes but some also exist with a history. I gun owned by a famous law man for example is thought of as special by many because of its history. A gun like this will be worth more money than another of the exact make just due to its history. So there is that. I can see people wanting to own mil-surps that have seen combat but few have a known history and the gun is really just a tangible link to history more than anything else.

To want to buy a gun because it has been used to take a life is disturbing. That it was a suicide makes it all the more strange.

If there is such a thing as bad mojo, this guy is going to find it.

ATBackPackin
March 22, 2011, 02:11 AM
^^^^ +1

That is almost word for word what I was going to say. Creepy indeed.

Shawn

Omaha-BeenGlockin
March 22, 2011, 02:25 AM
Takes all kinds---I guess

ghostwriter
March 22, 2011, 02:37 AM
I'd pay a lot of cash to have a Carlos Hathcock rifle, how 'bout you?

shotgunjoel
March 22, 2011, 02:40 AM
I'd pay a lot of cash to have a Carlos Hathcock rifle, how 'bout you? I'm sorry, but that's different. You would be buying it for who owned it and used, not because someone used it to kill themselves.

shiftyer1
March 22, 2011, 02:43 AM
I've had the choice to own several guns that where used for suicide. But who the hell wants a gun that you know was used for this purpose?

Maybe he was a friend of the deceased and this is a very wierd connection/memory between the two? But that doesn't seem right either!

ZeBool
March 22, 2011, 02:45 AM
I picture this guy looking like Lurch. Creepy indeed.

au01st
March 22, 2011, 02:54 AM
I think it is interesting. Every time I carried or shot the gun I would be reminded of the power it can provide and the responsibility gun ownership carries. That said, it would probably sit in a safe and not be shot, so I wouldn't spend too much on it.

I wouldn't pay extra for said gun, but wouldn't be deterred by its history.

General Geoff
March 22, 2011, 02:56 AM
A peculiar history to be sure, perhaps this man is less after the gun, and more after an intangible link to mortality.

Drail
March 22, 2011, 03:04 AM
Personally I cannot see what possible difference it makes as far as the value or desirability/undesirability of any gun what it's history may have been. This is exactly the kind of fuzzy logic the antis use when they view a gun as an evil thing. Would you hesitate to buy a nice car for a great price because you learned that it fell off of a jack and crushed someone to death? Anyone who would attempt to make extra profit by promoting the gun as "more valuble/cool/whatever" with a story about it is in the same class as a used car salesman.

labhound
March 22, 2011, 03:14 AM
"Its a tool", "it's not the gun fault", "people kill people, not the gun"....all true but the gun wouldn't be coming home with me! I know that every time I shot it I would be thinking about its past. NO THANKS!

LHRGunslinger
March 22, 2011, 03:16 AM
So there is something wrong with being fascinated with death?

Revolver Ocelot
March 22, 2011, 03:56 AM
I know 2 people that own such guns but the owners are the ones who killed a person with them (both lawful self defense shootings), I can understand that, you'd grow a fondeness for anything if it saved your life but owning a gun for the sole reason it has taken a life is just a little weird.

mptrimshop
March 22, 2011, 04:17 AM
it may be true that it is just a tool. But if you like to do carpentry work in your free time and the guy down the street bashed his head in with a hammer would you want to toss said hammer on your tool belt or in your box? I think it is kinda creepy... i know i would much rather run to the hardware store and pay a bit more and get a nice new shinny hammer......just say-n

pockets
March 22, 2011, 07:27 AM
Different streaks for different freaks. It's really not a big deal.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
March 22, 2011, 07:38 AM
I wonder what else he has for his "collection" of tools that have been used to kill people!

He might have a large stash of hammers, wrenches, rope, baseball bats, knives, a couple of cars and this 'new' gun!

That goes beyond normal reasoning and thinking in my book. That tells me there is more than likely something evil in this person and it many times is ancestral, meaning it goes back various generations in his family in one way or another.:evil: Not always, but many times.

That person would not be my friend, the only conversations I would have with that person would be to see if I could help turn his life around.

Friendly, Don't Fire!
March 22, 2011, 07:41 AM
Personally I cannot see what possible difference it makes as far as the value or desirability/undesirability of any gun what it's history may have been. This is exactly the kind of fuzzy logic the antis use when they view a gun as an evil thing. Would you hesitate to buy a nice car for a great price because you learned that it fell off of a jack and crushed someone to death? Anyone who would attempt to make extra profit by promoting the gun as "more valuble/cool/whatever" with a story about it is in the same class as a used car salesman.
No, but I would not go out of my way seeking these things related to the death of people.

TexasBill
March 22, 2011, 07:59 AM
I remember a detective coming into a gun store some years ago. He was looking for a new sidearm and was offering his blued Model 19 for sale. Part of his pitch was that he had used the gun to kill a criminal. Folks were lining up to make him an offer.

I guess it takes all kinds to make sausage, or something like that.

JohnBiltz
March 22, 2011, 08:12 AM
The car James Dean died in was a very hot collectible.

foghornl
March 22, 2011, 09:01 AM
That aspect (suicide gun) is well......creepy to me too.

That being said, I do own some Mil-Surp rifles. But I own them as a piece of history, and I often wonder what those rifles would say....

ForumSurfer
March 22, 2011, 09:27 AM
Doesn't surprise me. I've had members here pm me with offers for a weapon used in a family member's suicide. To top it off, it is a worthless spanish copy of a smith.

RevDerb
March 22, 2011, 09:34 AM
If you can't avoid him, I think that in the next encounter, I would steer all conversations away from firearms and keep a very wary eye on him. There were individuals who displayed certain attitudes toward guns over the last couple of years and no one responded to the alarms that went off in there heads (Ft. Hood, VA Tech, Columbine, Rep. Giffords). Just saying ...

Carl N. Brown
March 22, 2011, 09:37 AM
Is it just me?

Nope. People like that bother me too. Also, I have found that non-gunnie people are more fascinated by that sort of thing than the true gun nuts (people with a hobby interest in guns).

I own a .38 snub, .357 and a 12ga as weapons and think of them as weapons. I have several other firearms for sport or collectible interest, which I don't think of as weapons. I have a ~1913 C96, a ~1899-1904 Webley, a 1926 Mosin rifle and a 1943 M1 carbine that may or may not have seen combat. Whether their past included dead bodies or not does not make them more or less of interest to me.

I would like to believe that the cop selling the gun with a body on it, buys guns at police auctions on the cheap, and cleans out the morbid suckers with his sales pitch again and again.

ZeSpectre
March 22, 2011, 09:39 AM
Okay, personally I think this whole thing is a bit weird too. On the other hand look at the offers that have been made in the past for such things as....
-The gun that shot Wild Bill Hickok
-The gun that shot Abraham Lincoln
-John Coffee Hayes' revolvers

and on and on.

Loosedhorse
March 22, 2011, 09:48 AM
I'm not easily creeped out, but that has bugged me all day. I'm not superstitious, and the fact That someone used a weapon on themselves or someone else would not deter me.
I guess I'm hypocritical here. I own some older guns, and they might have war-realted kills to them (I doubt it, but I have no way of knowing). If I found out for sure they did, I wouldn't get rid of them. Maybe because war is part of war guns.

Similarly, I'd probably be unbothered buying a police trade-in and finding out that it had been used to kill "in the line of duty." And maybe, too, a gun used for private citizen self-defense.

But a gun used for murder, assault or suicide? That's bad ju-ju to me. There's lots of guns in the shop, so I'll just take the next one, thanks.

Toforo
March 22, 2011, 09:56 AM
A peculiar history to be sure, perhaps this man is less after the gun, and more after an intangible link to mortality.
Maybe he's just looking for "proven reliability"

o Unforgiven o
March 22, 2011, 10:00 AM
There is a difference in owning the gun that killed Abe Lincoln, as there is owning one that belonged to a famous outlaw or one that was used in a war that defended this country.

Owning one that is "fresh from the evidence locker" with a "confirmed kill" by someone who took there own life, crosses an unmistakable line with a decent persons moral fiber.


There is nothing wrong with owning this gun, however you should not be buying it because of a "confirmed kill", but in spite of it.

460Kodiak
March 22, 2011, 10:26 AM
Yea, I guess the gun is just a gun. But this guys facination with the "confirmed kill" is a little disturbing. It's coments like that that really scare the hell out of non gun owners or carriers.

daorhgih
March 22, 2011, 10:36 AM
I'd get the tool, and provide the family the honor of tossing it in the sea near here. Of course, AFTER determining their mental attitude and PTSD ramifications. It might serve as closure for them. Or not. On another hand, I'd like to find an SKS and an M16 that were determined to be in EYE-Corps, 'Nam when I was there, 1966, '67, '68. DOD serials would be my first source on the USGI gun, and the ☭hi-☭om SKS is not that important, but interesting. Anybody else ever tried to match a surplus modern-issue weapon with their theater and date of service?

7thCavScout
March 22, 2011, 11:53 AM
Just my two cents...I think the cheese has slipped off this guy's cracker.

jerkface11
March 22, 2011, 12:06 PM
I'm sorry, but that's different. You would be buying it for who owned it and used, not because someone used it to kill themselves.

I guess that depends on who killed themselves with it. How about the gun Hitler shot himself with?

MattTheHat
March 22, 2011, 01:49 PM
So there is something wrong with being fascinated with death?

Maybe, maybe not. Is there something wrong with being creeped out by someone who is fascinated by death?

-Matt

shotgunjoel
March 22, 2011, 03:21 PM
I guess that depends on who killed themselves with it. How about the gun Hitler shot himself with?
I suppose a situation like that is different. Those firearms would be valued for their historical use in world events. This guy isn't talking about Hitler's Walther, or Hemmingway's shotgun; he's talking about some poor nameless individual's method of destruction. That's weird.

Nausea
March 22, 2011, 04:56 PM
This summer I was discussing something similar with my uncle for clarity's sake we'll call him uncle "one". Ten-ish years before I was born another uncle of mine "two" had a wife that either committed suicide or had a very unfortunate negligent discharge on her husbands birthday, it was to be a gift to him. Needless to say he did not want anything to do with it, so my grandmother is in possession of it now. I stand to inherit it when she passes. (hopefully no time soon) I informed my uncle "one" of that, and how I didn't really want it. He plans on destroying it and giving me a six shooter with less "history". I understand it's completely inanimate and all that jazz but I am still eager to have it destroyed.

O.P.- I cannot tell why a "confirmed kill" is desirable, but I would avoid him like the plague.

ForumSurfer
March 22, 2011, 05:02 PM
I stand to inherit it when she passes. (hopefully no time soon) I informed my uncle "one" of that, and how I didn't really want it.

I understand. I inherited said firearm with a history and graciously accepted it, all the while screaming "WTH am I supposed to do with this? Who keeps these things?" in my head. It stays in the back of the safe. It may be covered in rust...I don't know because I don't look at it. It will continue to sit until I pass away. I haven't decided if I'll reveal it's history to my son before I pass on. He's 8. I'm in my mid-30's Hopefully I have a few decades yet to make up my mind. :)

VT Deer Hunter
March 22, 2011, 05:34 PM
I though it was kind of weird to have a gun that killed a person.

ForumSurfer
March 22, 2011, 05:42 PM
I though it was kind of weird to have a gun that killed a person.

They don't kill people...no gun has ever killed anyone. Just the person pulling the trigger and making the inanimate object an implement, that's what we keep screaming to the anti's! :)

I don't want any implement used in a suicide. I was also looking at a house once when the broker (a close friend) ever so sheepishly disclosed that the home was selling cheap because it had just been professionally cleaned by a crime scene cleaner?! It was the location murder suicide for a married couple. So out of curiosity I had to go back to the master bedroom. It went from spacious, clean and gorgeous to "Holy crap I could never sleep here!?" in about 1 second.

suzukisam
March 22, 2011, 05:48 PM
a gun that killed someone wouldn't bother me at all.. someone intrigued by that fact and anxious to get said firearm might send me screaming for the hills!

SharpsDressedMan
March 22, 2011, 06:16 PM
I'll bet there are shinks that would PAY to treat that guy!

FROGO207
March 22, 2011, 09:11 PM
Yes the guy has a some sort of fixation by the sound of this. The firearm is what it is and that would not bother me to own it or one like it.
On another note a good friend inherited a PPK from his older brother. His brother had been in some shady dealings south of the US border for a time many years ago and this was his BUG. There are 9 notches on the frame. The brother said it had saved his life several times but would not ever elaborate on that any further. We were speculating on the notches and both concur that they were most surely his tally stick. Makes the pistol more interesting but not something to freak out over IMHO.

tooltech
March 23, 2011, 02:10 AM
I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels this way. I don't think owning the gun would affect me one way or another, but to actively seek it out is just weird.

That's assuming that I had no relationship with the deceased. If they were family or friends, all bets are off. I would probably destroy it in that case.

Gromky
March 23, 2011, 02:26 AM
Personally I cannot see what possible difference it makes as far as the value or desirability/undesirability of any gun what it's history may have been. This is exactly the kind of fuzzy logic the antis use when they view a gun as an evil thing. Would you hesitate to buy a nice car for a great price because you learned that it fell off of a jack and crushed someone to death? Anyone who would attempt to make extra profit by promoting the gun as "more valuble/cool/whatever" with a story about it is in the same class as a used car salesman.

Well, as some have argued there's real history and there's morbid fascination. A car used by Caroll Shelby to set a world record would have much increased value because of it, and I can understand a firearm used by someone famous to have increased historical value.

But shooting yourself, or even an intruder out of necessity, is in no way a historical event. It's a tragic thing. I don't think it would make me pass on the firearm if I wanted it, but it certainly wouldn't make me want it more.

Ironclad
March 23, 2011, 02:27 AM
Doubt if I'd be able to use a gun if it was involved in a loved one's death, but anyone else? Only if its the best deal. Wanting it for that reason sends a shiver down my back though. Theres something seriously wrong with that feller.

JEB
March 23, 2011, 02:39 AM
wanting the gun simply because it was used in a suicide is a little odd but that reflects the person not the weapon.

i did some negotiating with a police chief once because they were in posession of a brand new 870 that had only been fired once (a suicide). the facts of the weapon's past meant basicly nothing to me. an interesting story yes, but i was more interested in an opportunity to cheaply own a good shotgun for deer season and one that i wouldnt mind dragging threw the woods because the finish was not in the best shape. eventually the deal fell through; they werent eager to sell and i wasnt about to pay a premium for a gun with a sub par finish that would require a none-too-pleasent cleaning job.

but yeah, if he just wants it because he gets off on owning a suicide gun then thats kinda creepy.

Southern Rebel
March 23, 2011, 08:28 AM
If you think about it, his attitude is more immaturity than weird. It kinda reminds me of some of the kids I grew up with - when they were around 10-12 years old.

I suspect that a lot of our gun appreciation appears VERY weird to some people who are not anti-gun, but aren't particularly fascinated different brands, calibers, etc. They just want one for protection.

I find it just as weird to see gunowners freaked out by guns that have killed someone (family members or friends excepted). If the gun bothers you, then the box of cartridges that the killer catridge came from should bother you - and maybe all models of gun that are identical to the "killer gun" would also freak you out.

I have two guns that were used in killings - one in a double murder and the other in a sucide. I don't find either of them to be fascinating or scary - just two guns. I didn't acquire them because of their history - nor reject them because of it. I just bought them because they were cheap.

Men's objects of fascination would fill a library for the psychiatrists - let's not put the poor guy in a ward and take away his guns. Yes, his attitude is immature, but sometimes I think my enjoyment of cleaning my guns and admiring their different attributes is a throwback to my early teen years when guns were such an interesting part of growing up. If immaturity in one area of your enjoyments of life is enough to question your ability to own guns, we are all gonna be in trouble.

Mr. Bojangles
March 23, 2011, 08:47 AM
Owning the firearm used for a suicide would give me the creeps. I wouldn't begrudge someone else for owning it, I just wouldn't want it.

Carl N. Brown
March 23, 2011, 09:03 AM
It works both ways. I met a guy at a gun shop who bought a ChiCom SKS because he had been wounded with one in Nam and he said it was therapy to be able to be on the controlling end of one.

Southern Rebel
March 23, 2011, 09:16 AM
Owning the firearm used for a suicide would give me the creeps. I wouldn't begrudge someone else for owning it, I just wouldn't want it.

Mr. Bo,

I think we are in agreement - The thoughts of eating fried chicken gizzards gives me a creepy feeling, but I have no problem if someone else rates them as gourmet dilicious!

Carl N. Brown
March 23, 2011, 09:17 AM
maybe all models of gun that are identical to the "killer gun" would also freak you out.

This is what creeps me out: when academics like Frank Zimring talk about profiling crime guns for model or type specific bans. What ends up in criminal hands is what can be stolen, smuggled, extorted and that has little to do with "weapon of choice of criminals"; back inthe day inthe'hood, the street criminals wanted the Army .45 and the Police .38 Special: that was their weapon of choice but they settled for what they could get. Ban one model they would just use what was available on the black market usually the most common in circulation. The idea that you can impact criminal behavior by symbolicly banning a certain model strikes me as the tactical equivalent of voodoo. "The disease is gun violence and the virus is the X Make Model Y" when X Make Model Y is the symptom not the cause.

grumpy66
March 23, 2011, 09:52 AM
Some folks are lust plain strange......
Take a look at how sales of the FN-five7 went UP after the Ft. Hood shooting.

merlinfire
March 23, 2011, 10:55 AM
The gun doesn't scare me. But the fact that this guy really, really, wants a gun that someone used to commit suicide....well. Guns don't scare me but people do.

SharpsDressedMan
March 23, 2011, 01:43 PM
Maybe he's thinkng about suicide.............

youngda9
March 23, 2011, 01:48 PM
I would find it odd knowing that. It would feel weird...and I definetly wouldn't go looking for one. If it was military I wouldn't give it much of a thought. If it was suicide it would be weird.

rozziboy18
March 23, 2011, 03:16 PM
hooooo holy cow!

thats creepy that thats to reason he wants it!

i have a old saa colt 45 in my safe that was used in a suicide that was give to me for safe keeping but gawd! it was my bosses father and it still creeps me out to handle it.

it dose bother me to know that there are some people out there that odd

txhoghunter
March 23, 2011, 04:42 PM
So there is something wrong with being fascinated with death?

No there isn't. However, most people see this as slightly unusual. Especially if buying a weapon that someone used to kill themselves.

I would not want this gun, just as I would not want a knife that someone had killed him or herself with. It is something I would think about whenever I saw it, and would just not sit right with me.

Just how I feel about it, and obviously everyone views things differently.

shotgunjoel
March 23, 2011, 09:41 PM
Take a look at how sales of the FN-five7 went UP after the Ft. Hood shooting.
Remember when OJ Simpson fled from the police [sarcasm font] at breakneck speeds [/sarcasm font]. Yeah, after that sales of white Broncos jumped something like 300%. Now I understand that you are talking about a weapon used to kill people, but it's the same idea, situations like that are sort of like free advertising for companies.

Hardtarget
March 24, 2011, 12:26 AM
When I was about 25 years old, my boss's brother committed suicide. About a month later he told me the family didn't want to keep the revolver, and if I wanted it ,he would arrange the sale through the local Sheriff. I didn't buy the gun because it felt wrong...close working situation and I knew his wife and son. I felt it should go to a stranger...no connections with the family.

Sad situation...and I wanted the gun...nice Colt in .38 special...:(

So...I really do see your point... a bit creepy.

Mark

ObsidianOne
March 24, 2011, 01:52 AM
I have a gun that my father was shot with (he lived), I always thought it would bother me, but it doesn't at all.

longhair75
March 24, 2011, 11:36 PM
I have the revolver my brother used to take his own life. It sits on the top shelf of my safe, and a couple of times a year I wipe it down with a light coat of oil. His oldest son called me a few months ago, wondering what had happened to the gun. When I told him that I still had it, he asked if I would be willing to give it to him. He is welcome to it.

cougfan
March 25, 2011, 07:04 AM
I like old milsurp guns for their history and possible action they have seen, but I wouldn't want a gun that had been used to kill someone, especially a suicide. The gun Hitler used would be awesome and I'm sure is worth an enormous amount and should be in a museum somewhere. Other than that, unless I used a gun to save my life it would take a really amazing deal to end up in my collection. I just think it would be a bad association with something I enjoy. I love taking my guns out shooting, taking care of 'em and sometimes just checking them out because there awesome, but knowing someone killed themselves with it would be too horrible a thought for me to really enjoy it.

cambeul41
March 25, 2011, 07:49 AM
I would like to say that the guns history would make no difference to me, but I suspect that would not be the truth.

A bunch of years ago I took a nice 1911 in payment for a debt from someone I did not like. Every time I looked at that gun, I thought about the previous owner. At the time, I knew little about gun values, so I sold it for less than it was worth.

Sometimes I regret the price that I accepted. Often I wish I had a 1911 of equal quality, but never do I want that particular gun back.

stonecutter2
March 25, 2011, 02:05 PM
So there is something wrong with being fascinated with death?
Not in my opinion.

The guy's approach about it may have seemed creepy, but in general I think that death holds a lot of fascination for a fair amount of folks, including the means that people go about to end their own life.

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