Carrying NFA firearms


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CarolusIV
March 23, 2011, 09:48 PM
I recently had a leather scabbard holster custom made for my SBS (mostly for my own amusement, but also for hunting/range use), and I was wondering if there are any stipulations regarding open carry of NFA weapons in a general sense (specifically in Arizona). I have looked, and can't find anything explicitly forbidding the practice, but I just wanted to get opinions from y'all.

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DoubleTapDrew
March 23, 2011, 10:48 PM
I don't think it's any different legally than a title 1 firearm, although don't be surprised if you get a LEO that's uninformed with the laws and wants to hassle you.

Ron James
March 24, 2011, 01:15 AM
Why would you want to carry a NFA firearm in such a manner, are you expecting a Indian raid or perhaps a shoot out at the OK corral? And because I can is not an answer:) Yes, you will be stopped, just make sure you have your paper work handy.Before the flames start,Yes, I live in Arizona and been a life member of NRA for 40 years and yes I own a few NFA firearms.:banghead:

AlexanderA
March 24, 2011, 01:16 AM
In the case of machineguns (a subset of NFA items) note that Maryland, South Dakota, Arkansas, Montana, Wisconsin, Connecticut, and Virginia are "Uniform Machine Gun Act" states.

The Virginia version of the UMGA provides, in part, as follows:

18.2-290. Use of machine gun for aggressive purpose.

Unlawful possession or use of a machine gun for an offensive or aggressive purpose is hereby declared to be a Class 4 felony.

18.2-291. What constitutes aggressive purpose.

Possession or use of a machine gun shall be presumed to be for an offensive or aggressive purpose:

(1) When the machine gun is on premises not owned or rented for bona fide permanent residence or business occupancy by the person in whose possession the machine gun may be found;
(2) .....
(3) .....
(4) When empty or loaded shells which have been or are susceptible of use in the machine gun are found in the immediate vicinity thereof.

18.2-293.1. What article does not prohibit.

Nothing contained in this article shall prohibit or interfere with:

(1) The possession of a machine gun for scientific purposes, or the possession of a machine gun not usable as a weapon and possessed as a curiosity, ornament, or keepsake; and

(2) The possession of a machine gun for a purpose manifestly not aggressive or offensive.

Conclusion: Be careful. Carrying a machine gun in Virginia (or any UMGA state) off-premises could create a rebuttable presumption of guilt of a felony. That is, it would be up to you to prove that your carrying was "manifestly not aggressive or offensive." I suppose that target shooting at an established range, or participating in a historical reenactment or display, would be non-aggressive purposes. Routine carrying on the street? You probably couldn't rebut the presumption.

jmorris
March 24, 2011, 01:39 AM
Not "open carry" but if I am taking the hit in speed an SBR costs it's going to be suppressed and there is no better place for the weakling to be than handy.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/3g/jeepm.jpg

Quiet
March 24, 2011, 02:11 AM
For AZ...
With an AZ CCW you can legally conceal carry any weapon. This includes Title 2 firearms (AOW, MG, SBR, SBS).
You need to make sure you have your AZ CCW permit and a copy of your NFA paperwork with you, when you go about legally conceal carrying a Title 2 firearm.

PTK
March 24, 2011, 03:12 AM
Why would you want to carry a NFA firearm in such a manner, are you expecting a Indian raid or perhaps a shoot out at the OK corral? And because I can is not an answer:) Yes, you will be stopped, just make sure you have your paper work handy.Before the flames start,Yes, I live in Arizona and been a life member of NRA for 40 years and yes I own a few NFA firearms.:banghead:

You're very up-front about being anti-gun. Honest of you. :)

Life member of NRA? That's nice, still anti-gun.
Own NFA items? Super, you're still anti-gun.

At least you can admit it. That does indeed take a big man.

kalash
March 24, 2011, 04:14 AM
Alex.... what kind of laws could you be breaking if you use a SBR for home defence. I keep a m4 next to the bed but I have a colt 6933 11.5 at the dealer. When it gets here would I be breaking any laws keeping it bed side with a loaded mag as long as I lock it up when I'm not at home? I'm in VA also.

Sam1911
March 24, 2011, 08:24 AM
Why would you want to carry a NFA firearm in such a manner ... And because I can is not an answer

You're very up-front about being anti-gun. Honest of you.


FULL STOP. The OP asked about the law. Let's not bring anti-gun arguments or fear of LEO hassles into it.

Quiet seems to have answered the question succinctly. If that's all the OP wanted to know, are we done here?

Ian
March 24, 2011, 08:49 AM
Having seen 3 center-mass hits fail to immediately kill a rattlesnake, I have considered getting a double-barreled 12ga pistol (AOW/SBS) for carry myself. A 12ga will stop a snake RIGHT NOW by blowing it into multiple pieces. Easier to hit a snake with that than a .45, too.

AlexanderA
March 24, 2011, 10:51 AM
Alex.... what kind of laws could you be breaking if you use a SBR for home defence. I keep a m4 next to the bed but I have a colt 6933 11.5 at the dealer. When it gets here would I be breaking any laws keeping it bed side with a loaded mag as long as I lock it up when I'm not at home? I'm in VA also.

SBR or full automatic? The Virginia "Uniform Machine Gun Act" applies only to full automatics.

If it's a full automatic, properly registered with the feds and with the state, and kept on your own premises, then what you would have to worry about is the proximity of the ammo raising a prima facie case of "offensive or aggressive purpose."

AlexanderA
March 24, 2011, 11:16 AM
Just to complete my thought -- the prima facie case of "offensive or aggressive purpose" could be rebutted if there was a clear defensive use, on your own premises. But you would almost certainly have to go to trial on this. The "Uniform Machine Gun Act" is basically a prosecutorial tool.

As long as it's an SBR and not a full automatic, and it's registered with the feds, it's treated like a handgun under Virginia law.

Ron James
March 24, 2011, 11:29 AM
To PTK, Because Arizona allows concealed carry, why do do you think I'm anti -gun because I think it is rather silly to walk around with a SBR in open carry. lets see, I served 27 years in the Army, retired a CSM, been on a number of Army shooting teams, won several awards in RVN, been hunting and shooting since I was 12 yrs old, held concealed permits in 5 states, worked two years in LE, and that's the best you can come up with, anti -gun because of a wry comment about unnecessary open carry of an odd weapon?Come on guy, don't fall back on that old saw, every one is anti-gun that doesn't agree with you?:D:D

LHRGunslinger
March 24, 2011, 11:53 AM
How about in PA?

Sam1911
March 24, 2011, 12:07 PM
PA issues a "License to Carry Firearms." In the definitons relevant to the code it says:

(e) Definitions.--
(1) For purposes of subsection (b)(3), (4), (5), (7) and (8), the term "firearm" shall include any weapon which is designed to or may readily be converted to expel any projectile by the action of an explosive or the frame or receiver of the weapon.

LHRGunslinger
March 24, 2011, 07:13 PM
Thanks Sam. You are awesome.

dprice3844444
March 24, 2011, 07:29 PM
jm,nice car rack

Jim K
March 24, 2011, 07:31 PM
Hi, AlexanderA,

I don't know about Virginia, but MD courts have ruled that if the MG is registered with the state (not just with the Feds), it is assumed not be be used for aggressive purposes, and can be loaded at home, taken to the range, etc.

But in all states, a person carrying a long gun (not a handgun) concealed on the person or in a vehicle may run afoul of the hunting laws and be considered a poacher.

Jim

AlexanderA
March 24, 2011, 11:25 PM
Jim Keenan wrote:

Hi, AlexanderA,

I don't know about Virginia, but MD courts have ruled that if the MG is registered with the state (not just with the Feds), it is assumed not be be used for aggressive purposes, and can be loaded at home, taken to the range, etc.

Virginia courts don't appear to have gone that far. The situation in Virginia seems to be that of "deliberate ambiguity" and "selective enforcement." Non-registration (with the state) is just one of four factors, any one of which can create a presumption of "offensive or aggressive purpose." That said, I've taken my FA guns to reenactments, shoots, etc., with no problem.

See http://www.bighammer.net/mg.html

CarolusIV
March 26, 2011, 06:02 PM
Jmorris, that's an excellent setup. All of you guys have been really helpful.

Just to be clear, this isn't an EDC setup. I just wanted to be sure that I wouldn't get jocked if I stop somewhere on the way to or from the range/middle-of-nowhere-desert.

Quiet
March 26, 2011, 07:25 PM
Just to be clear, this isn't an EDC setup. I just wanted to be sure that I wouldn't get jocked if I stop somewhere on the way to or from the range/middle-of-nowhere-desert.
Just make sure you have copies of your NFA paperwork with you, when ever you go about carrying your Title 2 firearm in AZ.

Quiet
March 26, 2011, 07:50 PM
Finally found some of my AZ stuff. :p

Under AZ laws...
Title 2 firearms meet the definitions of "deadly weapons" [ARS 13-3101 A.1.], "firearms" [13-3101 A.4] and "prohibited firearms" [ARS 13-3101 A.8.(a)(i), (ii), (iii), & (iv)]
Title 2 firearms that are on the National Registry (ie you have a tax stamp from the BATFE) are considered "deadly weapons" and "firearms". They are exempt from the "prohibited firearms" definition. [ARS 13-3101 B.]

So, a Title 2 firearm with a tax stamp is treated like any other type of "deadly weapon" or "firearm" under AZ laws.

Since it is legal to open carry and conceal carry a "firearm", it is legal to open carry and/or conceal carry a Title 2 firearm that you legally own. You will need to carry your NFA paperwork with you when you go about carrying it (so you can show you are authorized to have it) [ARS 13-3102 C.4.].

Since an AZ CCW permit allows a person to legally conceal carry a "deadly weapon", it is legal to conceal carry a Title 2 firearm that you legally own. You will need your NFA paperwork and your AZ CCW permit when you go about carrying it concealed [ARS 13-3102 C.4. & 13-3112 A.].


AZ Revised Statue 13-3101
A. In this chapter, unless the context otherwise requires:
1. "Deadly weapon" means anything that is designed for lethal use. The term includes a firearm.
4. "Firearm" means any loaded or unloaded handgun, pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun or other weapon that will expel, is designed to expel or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive. Firearm does not include a firearm in permanently inoperable condition.
8. "Prohibited weapon":
(a) Includes the following:
(i) An item that is a bomb, grenade, rocket having a propellant charge of more than four ounces or mine and that is explosive, incendiary or poison gas.
(ii) A device that is designed, made or adapted to muffle the report of a firearm.
(iii) A firearm that is capable of shooting more than one shot automatically, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.
(iv) A rifle with a barrel length of less than sixteen inches, or shotgun with a barrel length of less than eighteen inches, or any firearm that is made from a rifle or shotgun and that, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.
B. The items set forth in subsection A, paragraph 8, subdivision (a), items (i), (ii), (iii) and (iv) of this section do not include any firearms or devices that are registered in the national firearms registry and transfer records of the United States treasury department or any firearm that has been classified as a curio or relic by the United States treasury department.

AZ Revised Statue 13-3102
A. A person commits misconduct involving weapons by knowingly:
1. Carrying a deadly weapon except a pocket knife concealed on his person or within his immediate control in or on a means of transportation:
(b) When contacted by a law enforcement officer and failing to accurately answer the officer if the officer asks whether the person is carrying a concealed deadly weapon; or
3. Manufacturing, possessing, transporting, selling or transferring a prohibited weapon, except that if the violation involves dry ice, a person commits misconduct involving weapons by knowingly possessing the dry ice with the intent to cause injury to or death of another person or to cause damage to the property of another person; or
C. Subsection A, paragraphs 2, 3, 7, 10, 11, 12 and 13 of this section shall not apply to:
4. A person specifically licensed, authorized or permitted pursuant to a statute of this state or of the United States.

AZ Revised Statue 13-3112
A. The department of public safety shall issue a permit to carry a concealed weapon to a person who is qualified under this section. The person shall carry the permit at all times when the person is in actual possession of the concealed weapon and is required by any other law to carry the permit. If the person is in actual possession of the concealed weapon and is required by any other law to carry the permit, the person shall present the permit for inspection to any law enforcement officer on request.

armoredman
March 26, 2011, 09:44 PM
Exactly, I had a buddy who used to carry a MAC in an SMZ rig, 10 round mag in, two 32 round mags offisde, with suppressor. He had the money, he liked the setup, and he was legal.
I wouldn't carry an expensive NFA as if it gets used, it goes into evidence for however long, and will likely be handled a lot by unfamiliar-with people. Damage from mishandling or neglect is likely, especially if the trial takes some time. With todays NFA prices, that could translate to a serious dollar value drop.

jmorris
March 26, 2011, 11:09 PM
I wouldn't carry an expensive NFA as if it gets used, it goes into evidence for however long, and will likely be handled a lot by unfamiliar-with people. Damage from mishandling or neglect is likely, especially if the trial takes some time. With todays NFA prices, that could translate to a serious dollar value drop.

I have never used any of my "NFA" firearms (or any of my firearms for that matter) in any situation that would result in a court case. I also have spent more money on a lot of other tools that get used less. Heck, more than a few of them cost me less than a set of tires that become useless in a year or two.

What use? Take a quick shot (he will be out of sight before you can get to ear plugs) at a coyote out of the passenger side window with a regular rifle and then try one with a suppressed SBR and you will have your answer.

TexasRifleman
March 28, 2011, 08:19 PM
I wouldn't carry an expensive NFA as if it gets used, it goes into evidence for however long, and will likely be handled a lot by unfamiliar-with people. Damage from mishandling or neglect is likely, especially if the trial takes some time. With todays NFA prices, that could translate to a serious dollar value drop.

Small price to pay if it saved my life. Just sayin....

I carry my SBR often as well when I'm in rural areas and on road trips.

Carl N. Brown
March 28, 2011, 08:50 PM
Firearms to be carried as weapons should be on the emotional attachment level of issue duty military or police guns, and just as easily replaced if a self-defense weapon needs to be retained by authorities as evidence.

Carrying a curio or relic collectible, or an heirloom from a deceased relative, as a weapon makes no sense to me at all. The only appeal an NFA firearm would have to me would be as a collectible, not as a weapon. One problem I foresee is a typical non-gun juror looking at an NFA firearm as a "gangster weapon".

That said, there are people who do buy NFA firearms as self-defense weapons because a lot of them are practical weapons, while some are just range toys. The motive and circumstances are the only things that one should be judged on in self defense, but some jurisdictions have a history of questioning use of unusual weapons (read some of the amici curae and footnotes in the Heller and McDonald decisions).

jmorris
March 31, 2011, 08:12 AM
The only appeal an NFA firearm would have to me would be as a collectible, not as a weapon. One problem I foresee is a typical non-gun juror looking at an NFA firearm as a "gangster weapon".

The only NFA I would call collectible would be the FA stuff as numbers are limited. All of the others can be made at anytime with a stamp. As far a jurors go, they all know guns are evil so...

As I said above I have never used any firearm in a human defence capicity but if I ever had to I wouldn't worry about loosing "it". It would never happen but even if I had to use my great grand fathers side by side in SD I bet he wouldn't mind and if it happened to be what was handy neither would I.

Flfiremedic
March 31, 2011, 09:22 AM
With the POSSIBLE exception of the Beretta 93R, I can't think of a full auto small enough for daily carry that can be controlled well enough to truly do the job. For home defense, do you really want something that is often at its best as suppressive fire? For tac ops, yes they fire full auto while in "Press" mode, but is that realistic in a home?
Now in a long evolution event such as ground zero at Katrina or the current situation in Japan, I can see the usefulness of a full auto long gun in conjunciton with other weapons if neighbors teamed up for defense...just my thoughts...
BUT THEY SHOULD BE TAKEN VERY SERIOUSLY...I STAYED AT A HOLIDAY INN EXPRESS :)

doom
March 31, 2011, 10:46 AM
I don't live in Arizona, but i've visited it enough to know that if crap did hit the fan (out down by the border) I would NOT want to be outgunned.

Flfiremedic
March 31, 2011, 11:17 AM
Fair enough...outdoor contacts in boarder areas would be an exception for autos, but even then, good fire discipline and accuracy would be more important to me...M4 or M1A in semi-auto or even an AK if you can get a decent one.

Sam1911
March 31, 2011, 11:45 AM
I would NOT want to be outgunned. I wouldn't worry about out-gunned. One man with a select-fire rifle (and certainly with a sub-gun or even GPMG) isn't necessarily more deadly than a rifleman with a semi-auto carbine or rifle.

I'd worry about out-numbered, and/or surprised/ambushed.

But, at any rate, the point of the thread wasn't really about the value of full-autos, but the legality of carrying Title II weapons in general -- specifically Short Barreled Shotguns.

MasterSergeantA
June 17, 2011, 02:42 PM
I live in Arizona (and am glad I do, although the current fire is not pleasant) and we have an open carry and concealed carry right. I have a 12" Rem 870 AOW that straps up into a shoulder rig with a Glock on the off-side. If I throw a coat on, it is pretty well concealed (I'm 6'4", 250) and I carry it when I am up in the mountains behind my house because the border is very close. I also carry the AOW in my car when I travel although the Taurus Judge in a crossdraw holster is generally more accessible.

JustinJ
June 17, 2011, 04:23 PM
"Let's not bring anti-gun arguments or fear of LEO hassles into it. "

Maybe i'm misunderstanding what you were saying, Sam1911, but what is wrong with mentioning that there is a possiblity that carrying a weapon legally may result in problems with a LEO who is ignorant of the law? That seems perfectly plausible and a useful piece of information for the OP. The anti-gun arguements are of course another story.

EmGeeGeorge
June 17, 2011, 04:43 PM
How about this hypothetical...

If you use, say a registered machine gun in a self-defense shooting, and LE later charges you with manslaughter because it wasn't justified, I beleive that you could then be charged federally with use of a machine gun in a violent felony, which has like a 30 yr mandatory min sentence. There was a security contractor in Iraq who was tried(though aquitted I believe) who had a firearm legally (and mind you it was overseas too) but he was charged with manslaughter and had the above charge added.... Manslaughter wouldve bought him 3-8 years, but the use of a machine gun could add time I think?

So in a worst case SD scenerio it could mean more time if parties after the fact decide it was a "bad" shoot....

Sam1911
June 17, 2011, 05:08 PM
Maybe i'm misunderstanding what you were saying, Sam1911, but what is wrong with mentioning that there is a possiblity that carrying a weapon legally may result in problems with a LEO who is ignorant of the law?
The OP asked for specific legal stipulations against the practice. There is a tendency for folks to toss in lots of opinion -- generally worth a lot less than you paid for it -- about what they believe they should fear from the police or public opinion. That doesn't answer the question posed.

Or someone will post a "why would you want to?" response and claim that "because I can/want to/the law allows" is not reason enough for the purposes of the question -- leading to a who's-more-pro-2ndA argument.

None of that helps the OP answer his question which was about specific elements of the law that prohibit an act.

We tend to try to keep our discussions focused that way. If you know the answer, post. If you don't know the answer, don't speculate -- that's just noise. If you think there's something else that must be considered, go ahead and share it, but do so very thoughtfully so as not to hijack the actual intent of the thread.

MasterSergeantA
June 17, 2011, 05:40 PM
Nicely stated Sam.

BLUF...it is legal in Arizona to carry ANY weapon, open or concealed as long as you are legally allowed to own it. (No concealed low-yield nuclear devices, etc.) There are restrictions on where you may carry it...schools, federal reservations, bars, etc. but in public mostly no problem.

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