Why not use the slide stop?


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Wonder9
March 25, 2011, 04:48 PM
I've seen this countless times now. The latest was watching Rob Leatham give a quick IPSC lesson ...in it he pulls back the slide back and releases it opposed to pushing down the slide stop on a fresh magazine to charge the weapon. Why do this?

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Remo223
March 25, 2011, 04:50 PM
That's with glocks only, as far as I know.

steven58
March 25, 2011, 04:54 PM
2 reasons:

a) in a high stress situation the fine motor control necessary to slingshot the slide is less than that for hitting the smaller slide release.

b) Slingshoting the slide gives you slightly more slide travel which equals more slide momentum giving you a better chance at not short stroking.

michiganfan
March 25, 2011, 04:55 PM
I have been taught that in stressful siuations that our fine motor skills are among the first to go, so your ability to use the slide stop release may greatly diminish during such times. Therefore the teaching that you should just pull the slide and let it go.

michiganfan
March 25, 2011, 04:56 PM
I should have just said what "Steve said"

Andrew Wyatt
March 25, 2011, 04:57 PM
unless you're using the same handgun always and can guarantee you will be using the same model of handgun in all situations, using the bit thats in the same spot on all guns (the slide) is the way to go.

DustyDawg48
March 25, 2011, 04:57 PM
I'll echo what the others have said about it being a rough motor skill and it is universal with all autos. Since the slide release is in different places on different autos the overhand or powerstroke method is universal and can be used no matter what model of pistol you own.

yeti
March 25, 2011, 05:02 PM
You don't have to hunt for a fairly small slide stop.
It allows the pistol to chamber the round using the full length of its slide travel.
All automatics will drop the slide when it is retracted with a full mag, cuts out having to figure out how to drop the slide on a pistol you are less than familiar with.

GLOOB
March 25, 2011, 05:12 PM
It's not just Glocks. If you do it enough, any gun will eventually round off a slide stop notch/lever. It might take several thousand operations, but it can happen on any gun.

b) Slingshoting the slide gives you slightly more slide travel which equals more slide momentum giving you a better chance at not short stroking.

As far as getting more slide travel/momentum, I have to disagree. You usually get more relative velocity by tripping the slide lever. You'll find this out on a gun that's hard to chamber the first round. Some of these gun manufacturers specifically state you should chamber the first round by dropping the slide release. When you slingshot, your dominant hand pushes the frame forward at release. So the slide has to "catch up" with the moving frame. When you drop the slide release, the frame jumps backwards.

Hangingrock
March 25, 2011, 05:15 PM
It is a handgun and if you only have one hand to use then the slide stop becomes the slide release. The sling-shot method is in vogue now. Everyone talks motor skills. The next thing they’ll be telling you is one can’t control their bowel movement and press the trigger at the same time.:what::rolleyes:

Remo223
March 25, 2011, 05:56 PM
This is all nonsense as far as I'm concerned. If you have the motor skills to hit the mag release button and insert a new mag, then you got plenty of motor skills to hit the slide release.

HOWEVER, if you do it right, you can reload WITHOUT hitting the slide release OR use the slingshot method.

Zerodefect
March 25, 2011, 06:07 PM
Releasing the slide stop is slightly less reliable than overhand racking the slide.

I've been in a few 500-1000 round competitions where failures of any kind were recorded and serious points penalties. A reliability under stress friendly comp thing.

The first thing we noticed is that a reliable gun is more likely to malf after a speed reload than any other time. So overhand racking unded up being the ticket, but tac reloading when possible was even better.

Chris Rhines
March 25, 2011, 06:32 PM
I teach and recommend using the slide release, because it is much faster and much more reliable under stress.

The 'fine motor skills' argument in favor of cycling the slide does not hold up. For one thing, both pressing the slide release and manipulating the slide are very much fine motor skills. Manipulating the slide, however, is a much more complicated, involved series of movements than pressing a lever.

The 'common manual of arms' theory does not hold up either. For example, if you run the slide on an M9 or a 3rd gen S&W, you are likely to set the slide-mounted safety. Some 1911-pattern guns will not drop the slide unless you press the slide lock. Besides, is having a perfectly common manual of arms for every pickup gun in the world, worth losing a full second or two on the reload?

I won't go into the myth of conditional branching, or reliability issues here, except to say that they don't hold up either.

The only reason to run the slide when reloading is if your carry gun does not have a slide latch, or if you are physically incapable of using it.

-C

Double Naught Spy
March 25, 2011, 06:46 PM
2 reasons:

a) in a high stress situation the fine motor control necessary to slingshot the slide is less than that for hitting the smaller slide release.

b) Slingshoting the slide gives you slightly more slide travel which equals more slide momentum giving you a better chance at not short stroking.

B is mostly true. The problem isn't "short stroking" which is where the gun attempts to cycle, but fails to pick up a new cartridge, but fails to stroke with sufficient power to get the round chambered as reliably.

A is absolutely without merit. Swiping the slide catch/release/lock/control with a finger or fingers does not require fine motor skill. You can even do it with the palm of your hand and so the whole fine motor skill issue goes out the window. Sure, it requires a whole lot less movement and uses far fewer muscles much less and doesn't seem to involve major muscle groups like the slingshot method, but that doesn't make it a highly precise fine motor skill endeavor.

I have been taught that in stressful siuations that our fine motor skills are among the first to go, so your ability to use the slide stop release may greatly diminish during such times. Therefore the teaching that you should just pull the slide and let it go.

Yep, this is why nobody can pull a gun's trigger under stress. Once their fine motor skills start to fail, they can no longer operate the trigger and the gun simply becomes a rock. :rolleyes:

Come on, folks! Like Chris said, it is just a lever and is hugely simple to use. That doesn't make it the best method to use, but the claim that it should not be used because of the crippling affects of fine motor skill loss under stress is just plain silly.

Vonderek
March 25, 2011, 06:48 PM
It seems like it would be a tad quicker to reload and get a gun back on target using the slide stop as the weakside hand only needs to perform one task.

MICHAEL T
March 25, 2011, 07:11 PM
Guess no need for people to waste money on extended slide stop. Either. .

oldfool
March 25, 2011, 07:17 PM
well, I must be doing it wrong
but who woulda' thunk it ??
(at least I am versatile)

chamber empty, mag full, slingshot 1st round in
shoot full mag, use slide release on next mag to load
leave one live round in chamber, next loaded mag do neither (don't like chasing brass, much less live rounds), just use trigger

PS
cannot help but wonder what those cocked & locked guys do for CCW when obliged to draw quick
having no fine motor skills and all that... just throw their gun at the BG I guess

nwilliams
March 25, 2011, 07:20 PM
Why not use the slide stop?
It's widely considered to be the proper way to release the slide and chamber a round by reaching over the top with you opposite hand pulling back on the slide release it. It's not the only way, if you want to use the slide stop to release the slide then by all means do, you just won't catch me doing it.

By pulling back on the slide and releasing it you are putting more tension on the slide spring and thus will have more force to sheer the top round off the magazine and ensure that the slide fully chambers the round.

The truth is if you take any shooting class the instructor will more than likely teach you not to use the slide release to chamber the gun, it's common practice these days among shooting professionals to do it that way.

The Lone Haranguer
March 25, 2011, 07:32 PM
Rob Leatham is using a technique that works for him. I am not saying he is wrong, but t should not be taken as dogma or a blanket statement, either. There is nothing at all wrong with using the slide stop, at least as an option. A handgun should, as much as possible, be able to be operated with one hand. You might not have both hands to operate that slide. No pistol in good working order is going to fail to chamber a round from slide lock. Some will do it by themselves if you slam your magazine home. And if your "fine motor skills" degrade to such a point that you can't use the slide stop, how are you going to operate safeties, pull triggers, remember to decock, etc.?

Nushif
March 25, 2011, 07:38 PM
I have been taught that in stressful siuations that our fine motor skills are among the first to go, so your ability to use the slide stop release may greatly diminish during such times. Therefore the teaching that you should just pull the slide and let it go.

I've heard that before and I have to agree with the people calling it bull. If you have the fine motor skills to undo whatever safety catch your holster might have, draw a gun, point, shoot, with any amount of accuracy, hit the mag release, insert a new mag and then SUDDENLY your fine motor skills fail ... I think other issues might be at play.

Another reason I've heard is that the slingshot is universal to all semi -autos. Which sounds like a better reason, tbh. If you have to use a foreign gun the slingshot is guaranteed to work.

But yeah, this motor skill thing seems ... less than believable to me.

oldfool
March 25, 2011, 07:43 PM
proof positive that you have been around a little too long
the number of shooting professionals you meet grows exponentially

Chris Rhines
March 25, 2011, 07:46 PM
The truth is if you take any shooting class the instructor will more than likely teach you not to use the slide release to chamber the gun, it's common practice these days among shooting professionals to do it that way.

Not in my experience. In fact, none of the schools or instructors I have trained under in the past five years have recommended the overhand slide manipulation. Ernest Langdon, Todd Louis Green, and Bill Go (Blackwater Training/U.S.T.C) all recommended pressing the slide release.

-C

Pyro
March 25, 2011, 07:48 PM
I've never used a slide stop.
Always give the thing a quick little pinch, grabbing slide from the top fingers pointed towards rear of weapon.
Just more natural to me.

Zerodefect
March 25, 2011, 07:51 PM
Why don't those instructors teach all 3 methods and the +&- of each technique?

It only takes a few mags to go over each technique.

The method you choose is situation dependant. I usually rack overhand, but I've used the ss lever plenty of times. Why limit yourself to one type of thought. Telling someone there is only one way to do something when there is 3 very plausable methods is serious training failure. Nothing works for everyone all the time.


good class:
http://store.magpul.com/product/DYN004/76

The Lone Haranguer
March 25, 2011, 07:54 PM
I've never used a slide stop.
Always give the thing a quick little pinch, grabbing slide from the top fingers pointed towards rear of weapon.
Just more natural to me.
The method you choose is situation dependant. I usually rack overhand, but I've used the ss lever plenty of times. Why limit yourself to one type of thought.

Two important points have just been made.

chrome_austex
March 25, 2011, 08:25 PM
Fine motor skills? Not an issue with the slide stop on my walther... Loading my shotty fast, now thats a challenge.

One good reason to chamber with a hand on the slide is because its similar to clearin drills. More crossover experience. YMMV

Nar
March 25, 2011, 08:42 PM
I don't use the slide stop on my sig, but my reason is that I'm a southpaw so although i had the mag release reversed the slide stop is a different story. so i just got used to pulling the slide back.

Red Cent
March 25, 2011, 09:27 PM
I think this "discussion" might be proper with a new shooter. However you teach him, that will be the right way.
I may be missing something here. When you leave home with your concealed weapon, I would think you load your semi with the slingshot method. Some will lock the slide, insert a mag and drop the slide. I do. No big deal.IPSC taught me the bad habit.
But, how about the reload. Assumimg something goes wrong with the world and you shoot your pistol dry. Now what method do you use?
Or you are in a competition and you shoot your gun dry. Same question.

bbuddtec
March 25, 2011, 10:04 PM
at least 1 person (officer) died because the fine motor skill to press down on the little button flummoxed him and rendered him a sitting duck.

Nushif
March 25, 2011, 10:51 PM
at least 1 person (officer) died because

Just in general I find that kind of logic a bit lacking. At least one person has died for various reasons ranging from stuff like this, one person has died from owning a gun, one person has died from being outside while there's a rainstorm, one person has died from skydiving, you name it. Doesn't mean being outside in the rain and skydiving is a bad idea.

I know I forget safeties once in a while and could very well one day die from forgetting to take one off. Who knows? Doesn't mean using a safety is a bad idea. Ya dig? I just don't find that kind of reasoning useful.

Chris Rhines
March 25, 2011, 10:53 PM
Why don't those instructors teach all 3 methods and the +&- of each technique? All the instructors that I mentioned demonstrated all three methods. They all recommended using the slide release, unless there was a good reason not to.

Personally, I see no pluses to the overhand or slingshot method, and a lot of minuses.

-C

Frozen North
March 25, 2011, 11:08 PM
I drop the slide with the slide stop lever...

If you really get rushed, you can drop the slide before the mag catch engages or even before the mag is all the way in. If you use your support hand to slingshot the slide, it will ensure the support hand has finished the first task of fully inserting the mag before it can do the second operation of sling shoting the slide.

I just use the lever, but I have practiced making sure the mag is all the way in and my support hand is off of it.

1SOW
March 25, 2011, 11:17 PM
If you play a game where a number of pistols are left on the benches with the loaded mag beside the gun,
and all shooters have to run to pick whichever pistol they choose
AND FIRST SHOT WINS;
HOW WOULD YOU CHAMBER THE FIRST ROUND OF A GUN YOU WEREN"T FAMILIAR WITH?

Whiskey11
March 25, 2011, 11:30 PM
I personally never use the slidestop. The reason has nothing to do with motor skills or chambering ability, it has to do with simple economics and mechanical forces like stress, shear and strain. Releasing the slide via the slide stop introduces several forces to the corner of a material. Two corners constantly running over each other (such as in this case) are going to round and wear. The rate at which the corners wear is dependent on the materials used. I would LOVE to think that my slide is harder than my slidestop, but I get a feeling, any extra wear on the slidestop is bad.

You see, when you run dry in a mag, the slide stop pops up into the slide catch notch on the side of the slide, usually flat faced to flat faced, forces are distrubed evenly. In pulling back the slide to reload, there is no corner rubbing over corner action to wear either my slide stop or the corner on the slide. Ahh but I can hear you scream "But Whiskey, the slide stop rides the bottom edge of the slide when the slide is cycling but the mag is empty" but I will say, yes, yes it is, but the force of the mag spring is far less than that of the recoil spring.

I almost always overhand powerstroke for that reason. And it translates very well into clearing drills, and it ensures reliable feeding. The slide stop on my XD is ridiculously hard to manipulate and downright painful at times. I see very few cons with power stroking the slide. I dislike the slingshot method, but powerstroking is much more effective.

Remo223
March 26, 2011, 12:09 AM
Ok whiskey, when my slide stop is rounded off, then I'll start using the slingshot method.

Whiskey11
March 26, 2011, 08:31 AM
Certainly Remo, It may take tens of thousands of lockbacks to do, but if mine lasts tens of thousands longer because I didn't use it. It was worth the lack of effort on my part. :neener:

Use what ever method you chose, I just know that it is easier for me to grab the back of the slide and power stroke it, then it is to push down on the rather painful to push down on slide release.

Double Naught Spy
March 26, 2011, 08:34 AM
Why don't those instructors teach all 3 methods and the +&- of each technique?

It only takes a few mags to go over each technique.

I think I can answer this. Instructors prefer to teach the methods they believe to be best. What constitutes "best" isn't always clear. A few believe in teaching what works best for the shooter, how to release the slide or what grip or stance to use, etc.

at least 1 person (officer) died because the fine motor skill to press down on the little button flummoxed him and rendered him a sitting duck.

Really? Are you so sure? I have seen a lot more screw up because of a lack of familiarity and lack of skill with their own weapons. Was it really a fine motor skill issue or was the officer simply not fully competent in the use of his/her gun?

Another way in which officers can be rendered a sitting duck is the half second or so of extra time lost between the difference of a slide stop release and a slingshot release. Years ago, we used to run a bunch of drills to figure out what sorts of methods seemed to work best, were fastest, easiest to use, what sorts of rigs worked better, concealment clothing, etc. etc. etc. While I know there are always superhuman speed demons for whom the normal curves don't apply (of which few general population cops would fall into this category), the slingshot method took longer, by about a half second or so over the slide stop method. The pinch slingshot tended to be a bit faster than the overhand slingshot method but also tended to have more failures of proper grip (necessary pinch force and friction to sufficiently pull the slide rearward) than the overhand method.

I will say this. I have never seen anybody smack themselves in the face using the slide release method. I have seen them do it with the pinch and overhand and I seem to recall on bloodied nose and one blackened eye (different events). You can smash your own safety glasses into your face and blacken an eye.

After our tests, I gave up on the pinch slingshot method. It simply caused too many problems because of not being able to get the grip needed to make it work very reliably. On a clean gun, I find the slide release method works very well with my carry guns, but starts to faulter especially after the gun gets a couple or 300 rounds through it, not much, but more so than an overhand slingshot method.

The slide stop on my XD is ridiculously hard to manipulate and downright painful at times.
Well then your gun (maybe the model in general?) would not be good for the slide stop release method.

The reason has nothing to do with motor skills or chambering ability, it has to do with simple economics and mechanical forces like stress, shear and strain. Releasing the slide via the slide stop introduces several forces to the corner of a material. Two corners constantly running over each other (such as in this case) are going to round and wear. The rate at which the corners wear is dependent on the materials used. I would LOVE to think that my slide is harder than my slidestop, but I get a feeling, any extra wear on the slidestop is bad.

While I don't doubt there are guns out there that with poor metal, but I have a 1911 with over 120,000 rounds through it that had been worked with extensively over 7 years with lots of mag change, slide release (primarily with the slide release lever) and first rond dry firing and the metal problem you mentioned hasn't caused any negative consequences. Maybe you drop the slide on your gun 50,000 times a year and if so, using the slide release might have some negative impact. Of course, few people shoot their guns more than a few thousand times at all, so I see the bit of wear as being a salient issue for most guns.

If you think about it, if the slide release method was truly better, but wore out the gun after 40K or or 30K cycles, when it came to self defense, would you not be highly skilled in its use, knowing that the price of parts and replacement is nothing compared to the price and replacement of you?

ambidextrous1
March 26, 2011, 08:54 AM
Remo223 said:
"This is all nonsense as far as I'm concerned. If you have the motor skills to hit the mag release button and insert a new mag, then you got plenty of motor skills to hit the slide release."

I agree completely! When my left hand inserts the fresh magazine, my left thumb is there, just waiting to swipe the slide stop lever down; and the left hand will be well positioned to resume the two-hand grip on the pistol.

If you practice this, you'll find it's much faster that other methods that also "work".

Did I mention that you should practice this maneuver?

Mad Magyar
March 26, 2011, 09:47 AM
Let me say first, I prefer the release method when firing. There are some pistols that require some extraordinary effort for a slide rack. If time is not a factor, I see nothing wrong with either method...

Hoth206
March 26, 2011, 10:00 AM
For me, the thumbs-forward hold on a 1911 puts the weak hand thumb over pretty close to the slide stop and seems natural as the pistol's coming back up after a reload...it's simply faster and more integrated as part of the process of reestablishing a firing grip.

The other thing to consider is one-handed shooting (i.e. an injured hand). The slide stop's relatively easy to engage with the left or right hand (not ideal, but doable). If your muscle memory is 100% tied up in slingshot, you're stepping further outside of the muscle memory norm to find and depress the slide stop.

cskny
March 26, 2011, 10:26 AM
I've always pulled back the slide to avoid:

The problem isn't "short stroking" which is where the gun attempts to cycle, but fails to pick up a new cartridge, but fails to stroke with sufficient power to get the round chambered as reliably

Drail
March 26, 2011, 11:22 AM
Don't assume that every gun you pick up will "slingshot". Some will not. Don't believe the ridiculous advice that you won't be able to manipulate the slide stop becase your fine motor control skills have disappeared. Practice with YOUR gun and find out what it will and will not do. Learn to count rounds and you won't have to reload an empty gun. Don't believe 3/4ths of the advice you see on Internet forums.

Remo223
March 26, 2011, 01:52 PM
Don't assume that every gun you pick up will "slingshot". Some will not. Don't believe the ridiculous advice that you won't be able to manipulate the slide stop becase your fine motor control skills have disappeared. Practice with YOUR gun and find out what it will and will not do. Learn to count rounds and you won't have to reload an empty gun. Don't believe 3/4ths of the advice you see on Internet forums.
Ok, so which 1/4th of your comment is true?

REAPER4206969
March 26, 2011, 02:01 PM
I don't know of any auto pistols that won't return to battery by operating the slide.

I can, however, list many auto pistols that don't have a slide stop or have an internal one.

OcelotZ3
March 26, 2011, 02:15 PM
How about this:

Racking the slide vs. using the slide stop will work in situations where the slide locks back correctly, as well as situations where the slide might not have locked back (but it is still out of ammunition).

isc
March 26, 2011, 03:20 PM
It's widely considered to be the proper way to release the slide and chamber a round by reaching over the top with you opposite hand pulling back on the slide release it.
I disagree heartily. I have to question why you think there is any sort of consensus on that.

Remo223
March 26, 2011, 03:29 PM
no kidding.

The "slingshot method" implies you grasp the slide from the rear with thumb and forefinger just like you do a slingshot.

balance 740
March 26, 2011, 04:34 PM
Some mags release with a button on the side, some release with a lever under the trigger guard, some release with a lever on the heel of the grip. I don't practice activating all three releases because of a situation where I could pick up a random gun. I practice using the controls on MY pistol. If one day I am in a situation where I have to pick up a random pistol, shoot it until it is empty, find another mag for it, and then release the slide, then maybe the uniformity of the overhand method will be useful, in that bizarre and highly unlikely situation.

My local gunsmith, who has shot more than I probably ever will, told me that the "uniformity" and "fine motor skill" arguments didn't show up until Glock came out with a pistol that did not have a good enough slide release to be used by your thumb.

I'm a lefty, so I've had to slingshot/overhand most pistols, but now that I own and carry a pistol with ambidextrous controls, I prefer the slide release, and it has always worked 100%, so far.

EddieNFL
March 26, 2011, 05:09 PM
Ok whiskey, when my slide stop is rounded off, then I'll start using the slingshot method.
I'll replace the slide stop. If I were concerned about parts wear, I wouldn't shoot it.

SuperNaut
March 26, 2011, 05:18 PM
If fine motor skills go out the window under stress then manipulating the safety and mag release are a problem too. There are many reasons to slingshot, but the "fine motor skill" argument is bunkum IMO.

Red Cent
March 26, 2011, 06:11 PM
All of you have subconsciously developed habits. Whether it is how you shave or how you eat.
You do what you practice. Stories abound. Some years back someone told the story about the expert PPC shooter. He was killed with the empties in his hands.
Might not be the truth but it makes a point. When the stuff hits the fan, my subconscious will require me to use the slide release. Otherwise, in a quiet world I will reach over the top, grasp the slide with my left hand, push it back and let go. Arthritis.

9mmepiphany
March 26, 2011, 10:31 PM
I disagree heartily. I have to question why you think there is any sort of consensus on that.

Maybe a more accurate way of putting it would be it is the consensus of most nationally known/recognized shooting schools that the preferred method, or at least the one usually taught is reaching over the top of the slide and grasping the rear serrations with your fingers on one side and the base of your thumb on the other to pull the slide to the rear to release it when chambering a round. I refer to schools like Thunder Ranch, Bill Rogers...

The major exceptions to this are:
1. sport or competition shooting where ultimate speed has a higher value than adaptability...most folks for whom the difference in speed would make a difference, use a dedicated platform (they know where the slide stop is)
2. training centered around the Beretta 92 series pistols (the location and ease with which their safety/de-cocker moves make racking overhand a greater liability

I teach every method I've ever learned (well, I can't do the Ninja One Hand chamber yet)...it is just an additional tool. But I will say that the overhand method works with every gun I've ever picked up, while the slide stop won't (think Walther PPK)

Nushif
March 26, 2011, 10:43 PM
I can't do the Ninja One Hand chamber yet

That one is actually pretty easy, if it's the one they taught us ... someone on YouTube I'm sure has a video of it out.

9mmepiphany
March 26, 2011, 11:22 PM
I'll have to work at it more. I've seen the original, that the USPSA match, and the one from the PI range...then the one where he does several Glocks.

I understand the mechanics of it, just can't get any of my guns to do it yet

Pyro
March 26, 2011, 11:37 PM
All of you have subconsciously developed habits.
I like this the most.
When I shoot any of my guns, I have my own way of handling each one as I have developed habits. I tend to work the bolt on my Nagant differently when standing then when I do sitting, kneeling, prone, or at the bench. Can't say why but it's how I naturally do it.
The same goes for handguns, I've never owned a handgun with a slide stop so this "slingshot" method is all I've ever used. If I get a handgun with a slide stop I probably won't use it, I shouldn't need to think about what I need to do to load and fire my weapon.

toivo
March 26, 2011, 11:46 PM
Some of my pistols don't have a slide stop, but they will all slingshot. I would rather not have to use a different method for different pistols. That's why I always slingshot.

I don't think one method is clearly better than the other. If that were true, there wouldn't be so much arguing about it. ;)

1SOW
March 27, 2011, 12:09 AM
I don't think one method is clearly better than the other. If that were true, there wouldn't be so much arguing about it. ;)


If "better" is "faster" then a pistol that releases the slide on a firm mag insert is "better", because it's faster to next shot than any other method.. Need a shot timer?--it is.

9mmepiphany
March 27, 2011, 01:47 AM
If "better" is "faster" then a pistol that releases the slide on a firm mag insert is "better", because it's faster to next shot than any other method.. Need a shot timer?--it is.

The question has always been, would it do it reliably...i.e. : every time without fail.

If not, than the H&K P7 would be the fastest. It releases the slide mechanically, as you tighten your shooting grip

Dulvarian
March 27, 2011, 01:55 AM
Incoming, standard Dulvarian sized wall of text, complete with too many commas and parentheticals.

I use the SS after reloads, unless I hit the magic position and my Glock drops the slide without me touching it when I ram the magazine home. This is with all my pistols, and any pistol I have ever shot.

My Beretta Cougar (first carry gun) has an ambi safety, and slingshotting with that is liable to gouge your fingers enough to leave blood blisters. The SS is nice and wide. I have never missed it or failed to pick up a round when releasing. This is very similar to the Beretta 92 training mentioned above, for the same reason. Doing it with the safety OFF has a high probability of gouging your fingers, or engaging the safety. If you engage the safety, the hammer falls with the slide. You then have to take the safety off and fire the first shot DA. (And yes, I carried safety on. I practiced drawing and flicking the safety off and firing the first shot DA for hours on end until I felt comfortable doing it one handed, 100% of the time.)

My wife has an XD9 that I am making her proficient with. She has trouble with the slide release. As far as I know, and every XD I have ever handled, the SS took more force to release than other guns. So I taught her the slingshot method. It works for her. And after she pinched her hand doing it, I made her do it ten more times. The same skill will hold true if she picks up my Glock off the nightstand.

I have never had a single issue with any auto that I have ever picked up. I have never put any thought into using the controls, whether they be the mag release, SS, or safety. I have also never seen in person when using the SS did not successfully chamber a round with a properly inserted magazine. BTW, all the slingshotting in the world won't fix that error, and will likely cause the magazine to fall out, rather than just unseat more. (For what it's worth, once I seat the magazine, I leave my left hand holding the magazine against the gun while I release the slide. If it isn't seated properly, you will feel it move against your palm. A slight rotation from there with my strong hand and viola!, I'm holding in the Modified Weaver, certain that the magazine is seated and that a round is chambered.)

The only time that I even think about intentionally racking the slide is if it doesn't go bang when I pull the bang switch. Then it's T-R-B. I have never had an issue on the first round out of a handgun (centerfire). I have also never had a real stoppage that required a T-R-B other than when someone else loaded my mags with the purpose of inducing one for training. Which means I've never had one for real.

It does not matter what anyone, including me, says is a 'better method'. The correct method is the one that you have ingrained in yourself, with your brain and muscles and lots of repetition to develop muscle memory with the weapon you intend to use. It would take a stronger argument than "xxx school" teaches one way to make it reasonable for a person to change from their ingrained method. Like something that could potentially case them to shoot themselves in the hand while doing. We can all agree that such a method is both dangerous and wrong, and would probably either find cover or offer advice to the person we saw do it. Usually in that order.

Discussing probability that you will be picking foreign (to you) handguns off the ground, with loaded magazines no less, and how a particular method will work better in a hypothetical situation is kind of like every SHTF thread out there. (Unlikely to happen, and in the event that it does, there is very little you could have done outside of pure luck where your training would be of use.) Practicing with your gun, a lot, with a method that works for you until you don't even have to think about it is called 'training'. It doesn't have to come from a fancy tactical shooting school. It just takes time with YOUR GUN in your HAND and what WORKS.

I also call phooey on the fine motor skills not allowing you to get the job done. The 'examples' of people not being able to do something, like the dead aforementioned officer, is probably more of an example of being frozen or mentally incapacitated with fear or adrenaline. Training compensates for that. "Fight like you train, train like you fight" should sound familiar to a lot of people, for good reason. That is actually true, and is the only thing that I ever give as advice. So far, I have not found an instance where this did not hold true in any aspect of life. I'm only in my early thirties. I'll be sure to post if I find an instance that it didn't work. I might even write a novel (like most of my post lengths tend to indicate).

Without going into too much detail, the line of work that I am in intentionally and routinely runs ridiculously complicated drills on us with insanely high levels of forced decisions in very short time spans under high (forced) mental stress levels (that can be added to by people literally yelling in your face, or ear, as the case may be). When real situations happen, things tend to go very, very smoothly. Usually a let down from the drills, btw. Training to deal with high stress is possible, and I promise you that muscle memory can handle fine motor control for about thirty separate operations in the same sequential order, in under ten seconds. Nothing that I have experienced has required more than about than about thirty seconds of actions. And those that can't operate under those levels of stress find themselves in other places (in my job). And yes, my job has the one of highest arguable success ratios for these types of situations in our field, above and beyond any comparable civilian or other government agency.

*Disclaimer* Shooting sports where you are shooting at stationary targets and 'speed' is of the essence, one method may be 'faster' and may therefore be considered better. I concede this point with no hesitation.

*Question about disclaimer* If other targets are moving and engaging you with return fire, does anything matter other than your ability to hit COM on a moving target?

*Pure fantasy* That shooting simulator in GI Joe was awesome. Anyone know where I can get one?

Magoo
March 27, 2011, 02:42 AM
For me, the thumbs-forward hold on a 1911 puts the weak hand thumb over pretty close to the slide stop and seems natural as the pistol's coming back up after a reload...it's simply faster and more integrated as part of the process of reestablishing a firing grip.


+1(000)

Apparently there are some newfangled options out there, but I shoot and carry 1911s. With my grip, my weak hand thumb lands right on the slide stop and I cannot see why to do things differently. The slide is released as I'm re-establishing proper grip and the weapon is coming back up to fire.

I don't train to pick up random firearms and be able to operate them with diminished fine motor skills. I anticipate that if the rare chance presents itself that I have to use a firearm in a conflict, it will be the one in my posession, not something I "found" in a time of dire need.

oldfool
March 27, 2011, 03:19 AM
"the Ninja One Hand chamber"

now THAT's what I love about gun forums
just when you start thinking you have heard it all.....
(I thunk it was just a joke until I googled up the video, pretty cool)

I do believe I will leave that one to the younger fellows, though, and stick with slide stop method when reloading
(I never was fast nohow)

PS
you reckon that fellow can curve a bullet in flight, too ?
I used to could do that
that's the reason I so often missed when trying to go-fast you know
(that's MY story, anyway, and I am sticking to it)

5-SHOTS
March 27, 2011, 03:52 PM
I had some FTF the first round using the slide stop, so I prefere to release the slide as fast as I can to chamber the first round.

Mad Magyar
March 27, 2011, 04:04 PM
I had some FTF the first round using the slide stop,
If that's with a 1911, I think you have another problem, pehaps with your extractor tension & position.

KurtC
March 27, 2011, 06:50 PM
As mentioned early, and it merits repeating, slingshotting is when you use the thumb and forefinger of your opposite hand, just like a slingshot.

The overhand method is the one usually taught for defensive applications. Why, you ask?

Mainly, (and this is important, so write it down) because it mimmicks the "tap, rack, bang" malfunction sequence that gets drilled into your head until it is a reflex.

Secondly, it is more reliable when your hands are cold, wet, dirty or bloody. It also works if your thumb is injured or partially missing. ;)

9mmepiphany
March 27, 2011, 06:52 PM
"the Ninja One Hand chamber"

now THAT's what I love about gun forums
just when you start thinking you have heard it all.....
(I thunk it was just a joke until I googled up the video, pretty cool)

While I am drawn to the outlandish, I would never post up a joke without a smilie...granted my point of view might be a little skewed ;)

smetz
March 27, 2011, 07:46 PM
Looking at Gold Cups. Does the Trophy version have anything the National Match does not?

bergmen
March 27, 2011, 09:14 PM
As mentioned early, and it merits repeating, slingshotting is when you use the thumb and forefinger of your opposite hand, just like a slingshot.

The overhand method is the one usually taught for defensive applications. Why, you ask?

Mainly, (and this is important, so write it down) because it mimmicks the "tap, rack, bang" malfunction sequence that gets drilled into your head until it is a reflex.

Secondly, it is more reliable when your hands are cold, wet, dirty or bloody. It also works if your thumb is injured or partially missing. ;)
In both my CCW class and IDPA training, the overhand method was the only method taught by ALL of the instructors at our gun club. We have close to 1,000 members, been around since the 1940's so it isn't some dinky outfit.

The slide lock release method was strongly discouraged because of what you mention here. Also, it is not the slide lock itself that wears out it is the groove in the slide. Hard to fix that without changing the locked position of the slide after the last shot.

JMHO

Dan

David E
March 27, 2011, 09:36 PM
a) in a high stress situation the fine motor control necessary to slingshot the slide is less than that for hitting the smaller slide release.

The folks that spout this nonsense seem to think that the "fine motor skill" you had used to work the trigger AND the magazine release somehow disappears during that critical moment following your reload, but miraculously returns in time for you to to run the trigger.....:rolleyes:

OR...

"In case you pick up a slide-locked Walther PPK from a dead off duty officer and you find his spare mag, the overhand grasp will work, saving the day!"

I'd ask, "Why wouldn't I shoot the badguy with MY gun?"

You should know both, but utilizing the slide release is faster. And if you still have something to shoot at following a reload, then faster might be very, very important.

Mad Magyar
March 27, 2011, 09:46 PM
Also, it is not the slide lock itself that wears out it is the groove in the slide. Hard to fix that without changing the locked position of the slide after the last shot.


This is an example of "if you hear or read it often enough" people tend to believe it. This won't happen to any on this forum audience....:cool: However, a convenient rationale for the overhand method....

bergmen
March 27, 2011, 10:00 PM
This is an example of "if you hear or read it often enough" people tend to believe it. This won't happen to any on this forum audience....:cool: However, a convenient rationale for the overhand method....
Bullcrap. I stated this because this is exactly what happened to a Berreta .380 and a Taurus PT92. The owners insisted on using the slide release on both guns and wore out the groove on the slide and ruined the last shot lock-back function.

Dan

9mmepiphany
March 27, 2011, 11:10 PM
This is an example of "if you hear or read it often enough" people tend to believe it. This won't happen to any on this forum audience....:cool: However, a convenient rationale for the overhand method....
People often forget that this happened with the Glock 17 when they were first imported. They didn't originally design the slide of the G17 to be released by using the slide stop...Gaston Glock's research, when putting together the features for a successful service pistol, showed him that the correct way to release the slide was by retracting it against sprng tension...and so didn't heat treat the slide stop notch .

It wasn't until they started receiving calls about slide stop failure, actually the notch failing, that they discovered that their Americans contracts were using the slide stop as a release. The extended slide stop of the G34 only makes the situation worst due to it's additional leverage...so buyers installing them, because Glock designed them to only lock the slide to the rear, accelerated the problem also.

Glock changed their heat treatment of their slides to meet contract demands

john5036
March 28, 2011, 12:22 AM
I only practice with two pistols, both of which have for my hands a very reachable slide lock release. I count my shots (discipline) and practice both the SLR and the "slingshot" method. When I reach empty my slide doesn't always lock back since my thumb is basically right there by/on the SLR. My habit is if the slide locks, I use the SLR to chamber, if not, slingshot seeing as I have no choice. I practice both so that it is now two situations I'm prepared for.

Hangingrock
March 28, 2011, 09:05 AM
If the slide stop is designed as a stop only then why is an external lever included as part of the slide stop mechanism. A plausible reason may be the external lever acts as a mechanical override should the slide stop not drop down during retraction and release of the slide interfering with the slides forward movement.

Reference: The Modern Technique of the Pistol by G B Morrison / Jeff Cooper, Editorial Advisor (Copy Right 1991 ISBN 0-9621342-3-6)

Chapter 6 titled Manipulation page numbers 32 &33 concerning (Loading)

“The motion programed during loading should be the same one used when preforming tactical or speed reloads. One technique will do for all three. Keep it simple.”

“To chamber a cartridge, grasp the rear half of the slide with the support hand, with the palm over the top, the fingers on the far side and the thumb on the near side (VI-14).

Maintain a safe muzzle direction, keep the trigger- finger straight, depress the safety and rack the slide to the rear fully (VI-15)
Then lift the hand straight up and away (VI-16) this allows the slide to close under full spring pressure.--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Finally thumb the safety back to the on position-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------“
I believe the rational is one technique as a teaching tool applies.

Going back to the slide stop/slide release it is also plausible that it was designed as a not a secondary release mechanism but rather an either or if not the primary means of releasing the slide. The secondary may be retraction of the slide to release methodology.

I believe that either way of releasing the slide is dependent on circumstance and individual necessity. The Motor-Skill is BS its more reverting back to ones operational training that is ingrained rather than not being able to preform mental and physical tasking.

Mad Magyar
March 28, 2011, 09:34 AM
The OP's question has nothing to do with consequences to a pistol's structure due to either method of release. He talking about Rob Leatham, fast reloads, etc. This is exactly what happens when the thread gets off-track....Now, my comment was based on steel 1911's, Colt's, Sistemas, and Star clones. You can utilize the slide release till the cows come home and it's not going to wear out. This has nothing to do with the OP's inquiry which was answered already...

Shawn Dodson
March 28, 2011, 01:24 PM
I've seen this countless times now. The latest was watching Rob Leatham give a quick IPSC lesson ...in it he pulls back the slide back and releases it opposed to pushing down the slide stop on a fresh magazine to charge the weapon. Why do this?

To reduce mental load (decision-making) under stress, especially when clearing stoppages. It allows a shooter to progress more quickly through his/her OODA Loop and accomplish a number of similar tasks more quickly.

The only time I touch the slide lock is when I want to engage the slide lock.

Anytime I operate the slide I roll the pistol to the right & rack the slide - using the same movements I use to clear stoppages. It is an ingrained, intuitive action.

I grasp the slide using the overhand method. When I rack the slide I simultaneously push with my firing hand and pull with my support hand. I rack the slide energetically – as if I’m trying to rip the slide off the frame.

I load my pistol with the slide in battery and then roll & rack to chamber a round. It trains me to apply the extra effort needed to seat the magazine when the slide is in battery after clearing a doublefeed.

When my pistol doesn’t fire I immediately perform tap, roll & rack. If my pistol still doesn’t fire then I perform a Combat Reload, in which I roll & rack after I seat the magazine.

If I can’t insert the fresh magazine when I’m attempting to perform my Combat Reload I immediately put it between the ring & pinky fingers of my firing hand, and then roll the pistol to the right while simultaneously racking & locking the slide open. I rip out the stuck magazine; roll & rack three times to clear the action; insert, pivot & seat the fresh magazine; and then roll & rack to get the gun running.

I have no need to touch the slide lock unless I want to lock the slide open.

Having two different techniques - 1) manually releasing the slide lock to perform one task, and 2) racking and releasing the slide to perform another task – increases decision-making under stress because the shooter must decide what technique is appropriate for a particular situation. It may also lead to performing an action that is inappropriate if the wrong decision is made. (For example, the slide is in battery after clearing a doublefeed and the shooter attempts to release the slide lock – because he/she is intuitively accustomed to releasing the slide lock after seating a magazine when he/she loads the pistol. Another decision-making dilemma can occur if the slide unexpectedly goes into battery when the magazine is forcefully seated during a Combat Reload. A shooter who releases the slide lock is forced to make a decision what to do next. Whereas if the shooter is trained to seat, roll & rack, there is no decision to be made, and there’s no decision-making dilemma – the shooter simply rolls & racks as he/she has trained to do and drives-on. In addition a shooter in a hurry may inadvertantly release the slide lock BEFORE the magazine is seated and no cartridge is chambered.)

Having a single technique simplifies decision-making under stress and increases shooter quickness.

easyrider6042004@yahoo.ca
March 28, 2011, 01:32 PM
Rob Leatham is who he is...the best and the fastest.

I usually finished way below top 10 in any shooting game, because I am slow.

Having said that, my fastest reloads are accomplished by releasing the slide lock with my weak hand thumb as I wrap my weak hand over the strong hand.
No wasted motion.

That's how we were taught how, in reloading drills, back in the 80's. I'm talking 1911 reloads, btw.

mister2
March 29, 2011, 10:16 AM
Here's proof that one size does NOT fit all.

While I agree that using the slide stop is the best way for competition, not everyone is competing everytime they are at the range.

Some of us are sponsored competitors, whether it be cars or guns; and some of us actually have to pay for whatever we wear out.

I'll rev up to 5K and sidestep that clutch through all gears redlining everytime I'm at the strip, but how long would my drivetrain (and my licence) last if I did that on the street everytime I went on a grocery or post office run? I'll try all three ways to return to battery, but mostly slingshot or overhand it. I do use the slide stop when I'm in a hurry, or just want to make sure that shock buff isn't too tight, or allow me to look into the ejection port as the first cartridge chambers, ...whatever. I suspect others have myriad reasons, as well.

Bottom line: it's about comfort level. Whatever makes you comfortable, do it.

Guns and more
March 29, 2011, 12:14 PM
Slingshoting the slide gives you slightly more slide travel which equals more slide momentum giving you a better chance at not short stroking.
Hmmm.....I'd think the exact opposite is true. Racking the slide increases the chance of limp wristing or riding the slide, resulting in less slide momentum.
That's why Kahr recommends using the slide stop, they know the recoil spring is so dang stiff, most folks will limp wrist the first round and then blame Kahr.

Personally, I like using the slide release IF it is in the right spot. H&K...Perfect. CZ-75...,Perfect. Others, not so much. I don't like releasing the slide stop using my weak hand. (that's just me)

Mad Magyar
March 29, 2011, 03:36 PM
Personally, I like using the slide release IF it is in the right spot. H&K...Perfect. CZ-75...,Perfect.
Add Colt Officer's .45acp...Perfect. Ask Bruce Willis in "Last Man Standing". In the big shoot-out, his thumb was humming while he was pulling mags for his 1911 from everywhere including his jockey-shorts...:D Yeah, I know it's a movie....:p
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdYwCJn2G6M

BRE346
March 29, 2011, 07:25 PM
I can't move the slide stop on some guns, but I can do an overhand sling shot on all guns.
Doing it with one hand will present a problem.

MarkDozier
March 30, 2011, 04:32 AM
Almost all of you miss the important point.
Do what you like.
I don't like the sllingshot method
I can and do occasional use the slide stop, but perfer not to
I use the the overhand method because it is the one I find the most comfotable hanlding for me.

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