EGW Undersize 9mm Die Issue


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mohunter55
March 25, 2011, 07:14 PM
I have been using the EGW Undersize 9mm Die for loading Hornady 115gr FMJ and 124 grain FMJ. I have found that this causes the bullet to seat crooked which causes it to fail the case gage. I find that if i don't use the EGW die and use my standard RCBS resizer, that i do not have any issues, meaning the bullets seat straight and they pass the case gauge. Anyone else have this issue or know how to over come it. I am reloading on a Hornady Lock n Load now. I can't remember having a problem with the EGW die when using my single stage. I'm assuming its something with my technique, set up, press, something...it just seems like the EGW die shouldnt cause the bullets to be seated slightly crooked.

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243winxb
March 25, 2011, 10:38 PM
Are there 2 different expanders being used. Could 1 be larger/different then the other? How about the seater plug that guides/pushes the bullet into the case. Are you using the same one? Fit is important here.

918v
March 25, 2011, 10:51 PM
Sizing has nothing to do with seating.

Walkalong
March 26, 2011, 09:43 AM
Could just be a bad sizer. I bought a U die for .38 Super and it was terrible. It was straight, but it had a sharp entrance and cut into the brass. Ever try to grind carbide? What a pain. Nearly impossible with standard tools.

Everyone has a lemon now and then.

918v
March 26, 2011, 11:44 AM
But how would his sizer induce crooked bullet seating? Help me understand the mechanics involved.

Walkalong
March 26, 2011, 05:06 PM
Crooked carbide insert. Been there, done that.

zeke
March 27, 2011, 02:26 AM
While there are benefits to the Lee undersize die, sizing the case's down to a reduced diameter can cause seating straightness problems (assuming using a reduced diam belling plug). Am guessing it is due to the extra force required to seat the bullet, combined with an uneven brass thickness. Had similiar situations, depending on brass, with the 9mm, 40 and 45 versions. Using a bell plug that allows you to set the bullet straight while seating helps considerable, as does a Redding comp (pistol version) seating die.

918v
March 27, 2011, 12:52 PM
The Lee U die does not size the whole case more, just the base. The neck portion is unaffected.

mohunter55
March 27, 2011, 06:13 PM
zeke- what do you mean by bell plug? are you talking like a hornady seating die with the bullet seater stem inside it? I have 2 theories (I think both have been stated already) on what i experience and both invole the undersize die as the issue, which i think is quite obvious since i dont have issues when using a normal resizing die.

1. The die is sizing so much that this causes extra force to be used to seat the bullet, which is causing the bullets to slightly buldge one side of the case. I think this problem is also enhanced from using the powderfunnels ptx expander, which seems to only expand the very top of the case, whereas the RCBS expander seems to expand more down in the case.

2. The other issue would be that i have a slight crooked expander, but the more i think about it, i dont think this is the case. I'm pretty sure that I used to use the RCBS expander with the Undersize die and I did not have any issues. I stopped doing this a while back since i wanted to seat and taper crimp in seperate steps.

I should also mention that I shot these rounds and they function fine in my lone wolf glock 19 barrel. Its just that they look like crap b/c the slightly push out one side of the case. Accuracy seems fine at 10 yards, although Im sure they would be affected farther out. I'll do a test tonight if i have time and see if I have the same problems when using the RCBS expander. I may just seat and crimp in 1 step.

mohunter55
March 27, 2011, 06:19 PM
I also should mention that i use the EGW die in 45 and 40 on my Lock n Load and never had a problem. I'm assuming the 9mm might have a thicker case then the 45 and 40.

Walkalong
March 27, 2011, 09:05 PM
Main difference is the 9MM case is tapered.

mohunter55
March 27, 2011, 09:12 PM
reloaded tonight. I tried using this setup: EGW die, RCBS expander, hornady powder drop, hornady powder cop, RCBS seat/taper crimp. This gave me better results than before with using the Powderfunnels PTX kit for the hornady powder measure, but i still would occasionaly have a few that fail the case gage. I ended up switching to the RCBS resizing die and loaded up 100 using that instead of the EGW die. I did not have a single round fail the gage and all rounds look great. I think i'll just discontinue use of the EGW die. I bought it for an extra security measure, assuming I'd get better neck tension, but all it has led to is problems.

918v
March 27, 2011, 09:19 PM
To what diameter did the EGW die size the case mouth?

gamestalker
March 28, 2011, 03:57 AM
Walkalong nailed it. 9mm is a tapered case unlike your .40 and .45 cases. Either live with some that are a little buldged, or go back to a more standardized process.

mohunter55
March 28, 2011, 11:24 AM
I contacted EGW and might be sending the die back in. I'm trying to figure out what the EGW die should be sizing the cases to now. Does anyone know? Here is what I get. EGW die = 3.68-3.7". RCBS Die = 3.72-3.73". I'd say EGW die is mostly 3.7 and RCBS is 3.72. Cases used are Remington, Winchester & Federal.

918v
March 28, 2011, 11:35 AM
What are those measurements?

You said it sizes your case too tight. To what diameter does it size the case mouth?

mohunter55
March 28, 2011, 12:32 PM
those are case mouth measurements

rcmodel
March 28, 2011, 01:17 PM
3.68-3.7". RCBS Die = 3.72-3.73". I'd say EGW die is mostly 3.7 and RCBS is 3.72.
those are case mouth measurementsIn what country??

Here in the U.S.A. we measure in thousandths of an inch.

A 9mm case mouth, after sizing, should measure about .370" OD.
ID should be about .350" before expanding & belling depending on the brand of the brass.

Why are you trying to use the EGW under-size sizing die anyway??

rc

mohunter55
March 28, 2011, 01:39 PM
oops, not sure why i put 3.7's...meant .37's. I could see how that would make no sense. I used the EGW die because i wanted better neck tension. The hole thing came about because i was reloading 40 S&W for a glock with a lone wolf barrel shooting lead and i wanted to try to avoid any issues. It seems in the 9mm using the EGW creates a whole set of issues that i dont have when i dont use it.

rcmodel
March 28, 2011, 01:46 PM
used the EGW die because i wanted better neck tension.If the standard die is resizing the case to .370", you got plenty of neck tension.
Unless your expander plug is too big.

It really doesn't matter how small you size the case mouth if the expander opens it back up too big again!
All you are accomplishing by under-sizing and over-expanding is over-working the brass so it will split sooner.

The expander plug should be around .352" to no more then .353".

If it is bigger then that, make it smaller with a drill & some emery cloth.

rc

918v
March 28, 2011, 11:48 PM
If your EGW die is sizing the case mouth to .370" and the RCBS die is sizing the neck to .372" then then I seriously doubt the .002" difference will cause crooked bullet seating. Your brass may be crap.

mohunter55
March 29, 2011, 12:31 AM
yeah, im stumped. I just plan on using the standard die now, no real reason to use the EGW die when the standard die works just fine for me. Although I may pick up a lee factory crimp die, just to lay around with - to see if it smooths out the side of the case.

Walkalong
March 29, 2011, 09:11 AM
Why "smooth out" the side of the case? It is just telling you you have good neck tension. Won't hurt a thing.

zeke
March 31, 2011, 08:11 PM
The Lee undersize (u) die can size the case as far down as a standard resizing die. Started using one in 45 acp, so i could use rem cases with jacketed bullets (win 230 fmj)and significantly lesson/eliminate bullet setback. Also started using one for 40 s&W when my Browning HP (really strong stock recoil spring) would shove the bullets back, again when using Rem brass and copper clad bullets. Am only sizing the case to below the base of the seated bullet, after sizing the case using a standard resizing die. This essentially neck sizes the brass. This results in a bulge when the bullet is seated. It is also an extra step some may not feel neccessary. Am not sizing the whole case to a reduced dia. If the bullet is not aligned with the case, or the brass is an uneven thickness on one side, the bulge can be more pronounced on one side. I use Redding comp seating dies which insure the bullet is better aligned with the case. Am not "reexpanding" the case mouth to standard size. Am using pistol cases to "self align the resizing and belling plug ", before tightening the lock ring.

This is much less of a problem with 9mm brass, but i use it anyway for jacketed bullets with minimal bearing length and seated out closer to max COL.

mohunter55
June 9, 2011, 04:33 PM
Well, I've been bored lately and decided to start doing some more research on my slight bulge issue with the EGW die. I ordered the below parts from hornady:
290049 PTX POWDER MEASURE STOP QTY 1 $7.80 EA
290030 PTXPOWDER DROP EXP UNVRSL.355 QTY 1 $10.27 EA

I'm going to try out their new PTX expanders and the new stop they created for the powder measure. I currently use a Powderfunnels.com expander, which does not expand the ID, which i think results in some of the problem as well. I'm going to see if this combination will work with the EGW die. They said it should ship sometime next week. I'll post back with my results.

Yes - I know that it works fine using all the standard dies, but like i said I'm bored and I want to see if the the problem is really a combination of the EGW die sizing slightly more and the Powderfunnels not expanding the ID of the case, which causes increased force when seating which causes the bullet to tilt slightly.

Blue68f100
June 9, 2011, 10:46 PM
I've use the PTX for years now with no problems in 9mm. When they first came out they could not get enough stroke to expand the case. I gave the engineer the dimensions I was seeing and he re-machined the die and sent it to me to test. Been using it ever since. It can be a pain to get it set right. The stop will keep the load off the linkage once it full strokes. Not sure it's really needed. I've reloaded over 15k 9mm without it. The 9mm PTX seams to require more force to use than the 45 does.

btw. If you talk to the engineers and you already have the PTX they will send you replacements free if they think it's a problem. I have 3 of the old style which are useless since they don't work. While you talk to them mention to them any thing else that may need attention, like your retainer spring is kinked they will send you spares. Shims for loose fitting dies. Does you powder dispenser rock? If it does you need to put one of there shims under it. This will keep the powder dispenser bushing locked in.

There NO BS warranty is top notch.

mohunter55
June 10, 2011, 11:34 AM
yes, i know about their warranty, i've used it to replace a few lnl bushings i bought that were fitting to tightly. I really dont have any problems with the powdermeasure. it works great and does work fine with the powderfunnels expander. i've reloaded several thousand on it and have never used the ptx powder stop, but i just wanted to give it a try to see how it works. I did call and told them i had a press and was using a powder through expander and they gave me a price quote for the ptx stop. i figured for ~10 bucks including shipping it wasnt worth arguing.

Otto
June 10, 2011, 12:32 PM
I bought the Powderfunnel but realized that it just flared the case mouth with little or no expanding. I got rid of it and went back to using the Redding expander die which seems more precise.
Also, if you have a hundred bucks laying around buy the Redding Comp. Pro seater, it seats bullets straight with little to no bulging.

mohunter55
June 12, 2011, 10:43 PM
yeah, the powderfunnel works for me, but not with the egw dies. i either have to do one or the other. I prefer the egw dies, so what im doing until the hornady ptx gets here is this: first stage is resize & deprime, second is prime & expand (with hornady expander), third is powder drop, 4th is powder cop, 5th is seat. then i put a crimp on them on my rockchucker.

mohunter55
June 17, 2011, 10:39 AM
i decided to buy the ptx's for all my hangun calibers. I ordered the 451a, 452a, 358a, and 400a. Those all arrived already from midsouthshootersupply (super fast shipping). When i typed the above post i had ordered the 355 ptx and the ptx stop from hornady. the 355 ptx shipped, but hasn't arrived yet. the PTX stop is on back ordered. I am able to use the 358 in 38 special and the 451a for 45acp with great success. I was kind of a dummy and thought the 452 was for 45 lead. Turns out its actually for 45 long colt (which is a longer case, and will never work right with 45 acp. Anyways, i had an issue with 40 s&w. turns out i need just a little more to push it down to flare properly, so looks like i need to wait for ptx stop to come. Will let everyone know my results when i get the 355 and the ptx stop. By the way, I know this is strange, but i found out that if i put a philips screw bit on the top of the powder drop where the measurement turn knob bottoms out a the top of the stroke it give the 40 s&w a perfect flare. looks like the ptx stop is the key to the ptx's working properly.

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