[444]

Note that the word expert is not in quotation marks.
Everyone is an expert on something. For most of us, or expertise is limited to subjects like our own lives or the interior of our home or something like that. However, there are actual bonafide gun experts. People who are internationally acknowledged to be experts in some facet of firearms. Amazingly, we have had at least a couple of them grace the pages of TFL. Each time (that I am aware of), some jerk or jerks decided that it would be amusing to them to pull the guy's chain.
What a shame.
Then after the fact they make comments like they have a right to express their opinions or this guy isn't some kind of god or whatever. In reality, you did two things. #1 You proved to anyone in doubt how ignorant you are. #2 you either drove away or soured someone on this board. Someone who knows more about that subject than everyone else on here combined. I get on here to discuss guns and learn about guns. I would love it if the true experts answered my questions and give me advice, but I don't think it is ever going to happen.

There is a thread currently running on the board where a bunch of people wildly speculate, others make posts about what they wish was reality rather than what is reality when lo and behold a true expert arrived on-scene. He is probably one of a few hundred people in the world that know the true story of what is being discussed. After getting a few smart a**ed remarks thrown at him, he moved on to more productive things. I saw the same thing happen to the same guy on a different board. A more specialized board than this where he is a true expert on the subject that the whole board is based on. I have no idea what would attract a serious operator, shooter, trainer, or whatever to a board like this. They attempt to lay it all out for you and end all the speculations and questions and most people don't want to listen - they only want to talk. Their mouth is open and their ears our closed. All to our collective loss.

Moral to the story: Before you post, consider the possibility that the person you are discussing the subject with might really know what he is talking about. Or, before you send that nasty post, consider that you might be driving away someone that you can learn far more from than 1000 other members of this board. Someone who has vast experience, real life experience ..............................................

[R-Tex12]

Good post, 444. I, too, have seen some valuable "resources" run off other boards by petty criticisms and attacks. I view it as a personal loss when that happens because there are so many areas in which my knowledge is very limited (not just firearms, either!).

R-Tex

[keano44]

Good post.

[TheeBadOne]

http://suddenstrike.4players.de:1035/ssoboard/images/smilies/good.gif

[Bacchus]

Well said, 444.

[Harold Mayo]

I guess I'll be the smart a** on this one...:eek:

I love to read the advice of "experts". But we must first define what an expert is, though. Does being published in the gunrags make one an expert? Does having a website devoted to the subject and having a gazillion hits on it make one an expert? Nope. At best, being published or doing extensive research on a subject, or even having experience at a particular job, makes one more knowledgable in general but it does not necessarily make one an "expert". Take all of the research done by Marshall & Sanow, for instance. Some hold them to be experts, some to be incompetents, while some hold them to be total fakes.

A forum is, by definition, a place for discussion. Please read the Rules of Conduct for this forum: http://www.thehighroad.org/code-of-conduct.html

I think that everyone should be able to have a say. NO ONE is the "end-all" guru on any subject. Discussion is what this board is about.

They attempt to lay it all out for you and end all the speculations and questions.

"End all the speculations and questions" makes this sound like another board that deals with firearms and such but that is actually the private realm of just a few moderators. They actually spell out in their "rules of conduct" that you are not there to discuss things but to listen to the true professionals...these professionals being anyone with whom the board owner and moderators agree with. I would not want THR to become the petty dictatorship that I have seen on that board.

Discussion, my friends, is how knowledge is shared and how it grows. If an "expert" does nothing but preach what he knows to "end all the speculations and questions", then you are getting nothing more than what he (or she, to be PC) knows. This may be a lot or may be a little, may be correct, may not be. Anyway, knowledge of any sort needs to be questioned. It needs to be discussed. There is no growth without it.

I'll put this thought forward: If an expert truly knows everything that there is to know about his field, then questions shouldn't bother him. He should be able to lay to rest speculation and should be able to confidently answer anything put before him.

Sorry to come out somewhat negatively but I feel very strongly that this should be a board for freely discussing topics, not merely reading what an "expert" has to say. Sometimes it's a little messy since you have to sift through a lot of different responses but, to paraphrase Dick Cheney (IIRC), democracy is sometimes messy and that's the price we pay for it.

I, for one, wouldn't have it any other way.:)

[Penforhire]

An "ex" is a has-been and a "spurt" is a drip under pressure. At least that's my response to expert allusions.

[444]

"NO ONE is the "end-all" guru on any subject."

Harold, let me ask you this: How many people in the world know exactly how much money is in your wallet ? How many people in the world know what tires you have on your car ?
There are questions just like that on this board. Questions where someone knows the exact, correct answer. An answer that isn't widely known. An answer that doesn't take some kind of genius level of intelligance, but you have to be involved in the project to know. And, a guy that is involved comes on here and answers the question and all he gets is grief for it.
Let's say someone comes on here and asks, what is the standard issue duty sidearm for Podunk South Dakota PD ? A few guys say, well I think it is X. A few more say, they should be using a Glock. More people get on and say they are stupid if they arn't using a 1911. A couple more people say they once drove through there years ago and it looked like they were carrying Y. Eventually a guy gets on there and says, I currently work full time for Podunk PD and this is what we carry ________. Period. End of story. He is an expert on the subject. Take his word for it. Don't hassle him about having your right to wildly speculate; he answered the question, The End.
Let's say you become interested in shooting IPSC and post a question on this board. You get a few replies and then a new member makes a post: Rob Leatham. If there ever was an expert on IPSC shooting, it is Robbie. He has the credentials to back it up. He is well known. He has proven himself many times over. But I am sure we have guys on here that would argue with him. And if he left digusted, they would rejoice because they got their right to speak never thinking for a moment what a great resource they cost the rest of us. (This is just an example, I have never seen Rob Leatham on this board).

[tetleyb]

Rob Leatheam is a good role model and his credentials as an expert in the field of IPSC Shooting are verifiable and proven.

At the sametime, several other "experts" who are in this industry are, well, less then honest. Many have flat out lied about their backgrounds, training, and experience. When questioned or challenged, its always some "troll" or other put down toward the person doing the questioning. Then, a numerous "lapdogs," jump on the questioner, in defense of the "expert."

Therefore, if your going to have people, for a lack of better terms, "bow down" to these said "experts," I suggest some form of "vetting process" be allowed into the mix. Make these experts prove, beyond doubt, their own personal backgrounds and experience. I realize, however, this would be difficult if not impossible to do.

Then, I believe (for sure me), I would be more open to listening to what they have to say. However, when someome of "questionable" experience and/or background opens their mouth, I immediately am skeptical to what they have to say.

As you said 444, there are NUMEROUS experts on this board. Men and women with thousands of hours of training, strong military backgrounds, and numerous real life shootings under their belts. However, they don't, for whatever the reasons, teach, publish articles, write books, etc. So their opinion is just as good, if not better, then some of the other "experts" who are good at self promotion.

[Stevie-Ray]

Rob Leatheam is a good role model and his credentials as an expert in the field of IPSC Shooting are verifiable and proven. Agreed. I'd love to hear from him on this forum, or our own local hero; Jerry Barnhart.

[Harold Mayo]

444, I am in agreement with you in the examples that you have given, for the most part.

I'm not sure that you see what I'm getting at, though. Let's go to the old caliber debates, for example. Let's say that Fackler gets on the board and starts telling his views on the subject of stopping power. To some, Fackler is "the Man" when it comes to the final say on stopping power. To others, he isn't. An expert? Yes...and no. To say that he is absolutely right is a bit much, considering the subject material. To say that he is wrong is also incorrect. He has much of substance to say but it's something that must be examined. We must separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak.

Your example of the PD and weapons usage is really not something that can be argued. If a member of that department says that they use gun "A", then it must be so.

Your example of Leatham is a good one but even his information might be questioned. What if Leatham gets out of "the game" for a while? His information is dated. To my knowledge, Leatham has never been in a real-world gunfight, so is he an expert on the use of the handgun in a deadly force situation? Well, yes and no. He is, without a doubt, an expert on the skills necessary in a gunfight but what about mindset? Probably, but that's subject to debate.

I have a friend who killed a guy a couple of years ago in the line of duty. He is no handgun expert, though he has beyond the standard training of a LEO. He isn't much of a thinker, though he's not stupid. Not that educated, either. He can really make no claim to being an expert at gunfighting or post-traumatic stress though he has been in a gunfight and has suffered (greatly) from killing the guy (who, incidentally, deserved it, IMHO). I greatly value the knowledge that I've obtained from him, even though I don't consider him an expert at all. There are plenty of people who know more and can do more than he can because of their extensive training but they don't have the same perspective.

<sigh>

Anyway, a fact is a fact but most things are debatable. I would hate to see this board and it's moderators start banning people or deleting posts of people who merely voice their opinion even when, perhaps, they should have stayed quiet.

Again, this board is a wonderful place to discuss things. There are plenty of intelligent and/or experienced people here who, nevertheless, hold varying points of view. I have taken quite a bit from debates here as well as on TFL that I value. Other boards, where free speech is not encouraged, have held less of value to me.

[Tamara]

It always amuses me to see some 15 year-old with a goofy handle trying to correct Pat Rogers on CQB tactics or tell Will Fennell what the score is on knives. I once had some knob try to tell me how things really worked at an FFL. I didn't have the heart to tell him that I'd been selling guns since he was six. :rolleyes:

[444]

Please allow me to put this another way.
And please allow me a disclaimer: I am guilty of what I am talking about. I don't practice what I preach all the time, but I usually try. This post is something I think I need to do as much as anyone.

Let's just try to get along. Let's try to keep things civil and have constructive conversations. Let's not argue points where we don't have the facts to back them up. Let's realize that some people have more experience than we do. Let's recognize that some people are experts in certain areas and just because you don't recognize the name, don't make assumptions. If you disagree with someone, refute their post with facts, don't attack them personally. Don't take other people's posts personally.

Maybe where I went wrong was in my use of the word, expert. In many cases I do mean expert in every sense of the word. In other cases I mean someone that knows something for a fact and says so, making them an expert on this one little item. Unless you know for a fact that they are wrong, or if what they are saying is obviously speculation, or if their experiences are directly opposite of yours, why argue with them about it ? They very well might know. If you doubt it, research the matter before you jump in with both feet and make a fool of yourself.
None of this is saying that we shouldn't question people, or ask for references. But do it nicely. Don't drive people away in disgust.

[444]

Tamara
I think you see what I am trying to get at here.

[Mal H]

444 - I think a lot of us understand what you're trying to say. I, for one, agree with you also. However, at times it's worth it to read some of the comebacks or words of wisdom from those who do question the wisdom of those who've BTDT. Worth it, that is, for a little levity. To use one of Tamara's examples, I recall getting a very good laugh when someone, doesn't matter who at this point, was trying to tell Pat Rogers he was all wet. I think I also recall someone trying to tell Gale McMillan how to clean a rifle barrel.

[P95Carry]

Thx 444, your post is well accepted by me ... and hopefully I rarely if ever am guilty of what you refer to. But I do see it and sometimes cringe. I do admit tho to a certain bent toward ''humor injection'' at times.:p

I would hope that - for the most part .. our ''experts'' are probably old enough to, like me ..... be pretty thick skinned and so able to shrug off a limited amount of ''trouble''. There is a limit tho and it certainly is a shame if good minds quit thru frustration and anger at the inconsiderate and occasionally downright rude reposts they suffer..

Maybe ''expert'' per se is not best word ... perhaps just call these people to whom you refer as ''the experienced ones'' ..... experience is not by default ''pure knowledge'' .... because even those with experience can be under misapprehension at times... but to me it sure counts for a great deal. I am always eager to learn ... and this place offers that ... an ''information exchange'' BBS.

The long and short tho is .. discussion, and .. keyword being ''CIVIL'' .... so, a right for anyone to question another's input ... for sure ..... but in a civil and respectful manner.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let me close this post with a smidgeon of humor ..... the definition I like best of an ''expert''.


''An expert is someone who - learns more and more, about less and less - until he knows everything about nothing'' :D

[Harold Mayo]

I'm not arguing at all...merely stating my views.

The referenced persons are pretty well no-BS people. Pat Rogers is very good about claiming ignorance when he doesn't know or putting qualifiers on things when he is speculating. I don't really follow Fennell's posts much, so I can't comment. Gale McMillan being told how to clean a rifle barrel? That's a funny one. I didn't read it, so I don't know how it went, but there ARE many ways to do the job and different barrel makers have different ideas on how to do it most effectively, so the poster may have had a valid point...but, again, I didn't read the post(s).

That's what I'm saying, though. There isn't necessarily just one right way to do something, even when an "expert" claims that there is. Without the free exchange of ideas, you're not going to get to the next level. Sometimes "stupid" questions...aren't. Sometimes they can spark something.

Anyway...I think I've stated what I meant to state, though it's taken more posts that I desired.:D

[cdbeaver]

Maybe we should dispense with the word "expert" and try to use the word "knowledgeable" or "experienced." Either might do.

[444]

The problem is that some of the people I am referring to are genuine experts.
Pat Rogers has been mentioned several times and is a good example. And, he has actually been on this board.

[BluesBear]

It usually seems that those most enamoured with the title of "Expert" are those who don't qualify.

I guess it's only human nature for many to try and impune the "experts".
It's sort of like playing "Stump the Band".

[swingset]

I know an "Expert" at racing engines. Probably as experienced and as knowledgeable as anyone in the world....truly. Yet, he's often quick to say he's still learning, and still amazed at how much he's yet to discover about his craft. I admire that.

When I lose respect for an "expert" is when they hold their own BS to a doctrine, as if their experience or knowledge is infallable....and I've seen that on this board.

I respect a person's knowledge, their experience, or even their wisdom on a subject - so long as they're willing to accept they are not the final word on a subject.

[Majic]

Civility for the most part still resides here. There are disagreements, but rarely gets past that stage. The internet is a curtain you can hide behind. You are free to say just about anything you wish and pose as any person in the world. With very little research you can pretend to be just about anybody and mimick their printed words or deeds. It can be carefully typed out with time to edit anything not appropiate to the subject. So how do someone fully know that Mr. So and So is the real Mr. So and So unless you personally know the real person and the poster can't correctly answer questions that only you and the real person would know? Then assume you know for sure who the poster is, who's to really believe you if you then vouch for that person? It's a random circle and only questions can solve the mystery. That is the problem with having conversations without faces seen. Who's to know who's who and who's comments you accept or decline? Everyone has the right to find out for themselves. You just don't go blindly down the path soley on the word of someone you are not sure of.
If a person truly is knowledgable of a subject then I think they won't mind being put to the test as they can answer the questions with facts.
I think the word expert shouldn't be applied to anyone, as there's always room for growth. Alot of the growth comes from thoughts and work of other people. You should learn something everyday of your life.
Alot of people believe only the great one from up above is the only one with the final say. Man may say anything depending on where his/her heart is.

[redneck2]

I used to write the ourdoor column for a local newspaper. I'd go to some of the local shows and it was amazing. I'd become an "expert" by sitting behind a keyboard and whipping out a few articles. Oops...had to wear the credentals badge too.

That happens to people here too. Some sit behind the keyboard and become instant experts. "Best gun for bears in Alaska" comes to mind.

Also, we are a product of our environment and experiences. If you asked a kid in central Mexico what the weather is typically like, his answer would be a lot different than an Eskimo kid. Which is right??? They both are.

There are topics like "best bullet for self defense in _____ caliber". Since few if anyone here has used a handgun for SD, who's qualified to answer?? There's Cirillo(sp?) that's been in something like 17 gunfights and shot a number of BG's. I'd qualify him as an experienced expert, but half the guys he talks to probably argue with him. They read about a gunfight once so that makes them just as "qualified"

And, sometimes you have to make educated assumptions. I've never shot a person and never will....but I've killed maybe 30-40 deer in my life. I have some real world experience there so I try to apply that as possible.

And, in the end, I think the BS'ers get called out pretty quick. Personally, I greatly enjoy all the input. If you notice, the biggest heated debates are typically on topics that people have little or no experience.

And remember, this is about guns. It isn't life and death...

it's far more important than that ;)

[feedthehogs]

If anyone has ever spent any time in a gun store then there is always someone who will argue a point, or most anywhere for that matter.

Whether right or wrong there are people who believe they are right no matter what is said.
It also has to be understood that some experts have an ego or attitude far above those of mortal men. It is reflected in some of the posts.

I have met some so-called experts in various fields who would dismiss you as a human being in a second.

When one asks a question or remarks with a comment, they can be put down by the experts.

Someone who is secure in their own knowlege of a subject will not be offended by some person making a stupid or wrong point.

Wearing your feelings on your shirt sleeve in a public forum is not gonna work.

There are also those who push others buttons just to push them. Its easy to pick em out.

If the crap factor was banned from posts then this would be a lonely place.

An intelligent person will listen to all the facts, right or wrong and form their own opinion.

[Nando Aqui]

444: Good post – glad you brought it up!

Yes, “expert” may be defined in a number of ways. My favorite was one on a sign that I had in my office of many years ago, in an engineering department where I had earned the dubious reputation for being an expert. It read,

This Expert Knows The Answer 5% Of The Time - The Rest Of The Time He Just Knows Where To Get It.

You see, I had learned the use of these valuable words: "I don't know, but I'll find out." Also, I always preceded my answers with, "In my experience..." or "According to ...". That way, those with whom I was speaking knew the source of the information I was providing.

Along the same lines - -
Many times I have started a topic asking what experience someone has had with a very specific subject. Frequently, there have been many respondents that start their reply by saying,
“I don’t have any experience with that, but one time…”
or
“I don’t know about that, but I had a friend who…”
or something similar, and then proceed to give their already self-unqualified opinion. And these usually are the first to reply. These people evidently had never heard of the old saying,

It is better to remain quiet and be thought a fool of, than to speak up and remove all doubt.

Alex

[harpethriver]

444-good post. Nando-your last line says it best. Can we all agree that an expert is simply a person who really knows more about a given subject than you and I? And while we're at it let's give them the respect they deserve as such!! Let's make sure the experts who are kind enough to grace THR feel as though we appreciate them because if we don't they won't be back-and that's a loss we can't afford!

[RepublicanMan]

My daddy always told me not to listen to "experts" as most of them believe they know all there is to know and thus cease learning. Now I'll gladly listen to an "authority" on a given subject on the many occasions that I need advice about something. (except Glocks, I refuse to hear anything good about them since I don't need another "collection" to get started and the one I had soured me enough to keep my grudge) :D

[Mal H]

RepublicanMan - your daddy was right - to a point. Any self-proclaimed expert usually isn't. It's when many others, others who know enough on the "experts" area of expertise to make the claim, say that someone is an expert is when you should consider listening carefully to that person.

[telewinz]

Guns, Sex and money have no shortage of experts. You do not have to be nationally or internationally know to be an expert on the subject, it just provides "better" credentials, thats all. Many gun writers are know as Experts when in fact they were hired for their writing style and ability. They "copy" what popular opinion is and write about it. Its not black & white, its a gray area. A novice could read 3-4 good books on the M1 Garand, go out and shoot a few hundred rounds and he would be pretty much qualified as an expert. He can recite the facts and figures on demand (and understand) which is about all thats required. All the rest is opinion based. Gun experts IMHO are in fact a dime a dozen, whats wrong with that? Any high interest subject like war or guns is going to draw a crowd of informed people. Are their jerks out there? Yes but that should not deter someone from stating their "expert" opinion because their are also people out there willing to learn from their opinion. Besides, What gun poll was ever held that had 100% agreement? If you ran a poll on the best .45acp design ever made, how many would select the Colt 45ACP? Yet plenty of experts would disagree and could provide GOOD justification for thir beliefs. Gun shows are full of experts, thats how many make their living.

[Tim Burke]

The fact that everyone is entitled to their own opinion does not mean that every opinion is equally valid.

[Trebor]

I think there is a basic point that is being missed or misunderstood here.

It's pretty silly when someone who has no real knowledge of a subject argues with someone who is intimately involved with that topic on a personal basis.

The best example I can give is from a wargame convention I was at a few years ago. During one game a young guy in his 20's playing a Civil War game was passionately arguing a couple very specific rules points with the game master running the game. The player was not arguing anything about the historical basis of the game (like the use of artillery in the Civil War, etc), but was arguing about the specific interpertation of various rules. The Game Master, a guy in his 50s, was very patient as the player argued over the rules but finally lost it when the player said he knew he was right because he'd been playing with these rules for over a year! The GM finally lost it and said. "That's nice, but I wrote these rules 15 years ago and have been using them ever since."

The situation that arises on these boards isn't so much a legitimite question of "what makes an expert," as it is a refusal of some people to acknowledge that they might not know as much about what they are talking about as somone else in the discussion who is intimately involved in the issue. The recent Pat Rogers example is exactly what I mean.

One last example: Who knows more about the ins and outs of the retail gun trade, a knowledgable dealer who works with the rules every day or a guy who once "talked to a guy who'se brother is a ATF agent who said such and such..." Sometimes no matter what you tell them, the guys who are talking out of their @ss just won't admit it.

[AZLibertarian]

Rob Leatheam is a good role model and his credentials as an expert in the field of IPSC Shooting are verifiable and proven.

Being a good role model and having the credentials as an expert in your field are two different things.

I am a very casual acquaintance of Rob Leatham. His status in the world of shooting games is unparalleled, and he deserves all the acclaim he enjoys. However, without going into details, my personal knowledge of his behaviour in other areas of life means that I have to disagree with calling him a good role model.

[yayarx7]

I think that we are overlooking an important point. If an “expert”, or knowledgeable person or whatever we want to call them, chimes in on a subject they are probably the best equipped to answer, and some troll chimes in with a nasty post about it, shouldn’t the non-troll take the high road and blow it off as what it is, a troll trying to get a rise. I know that continuous disregard of ones thoughts, especially if one knows what one speaks of, can be a huge put off, but we all know how the internet works and how 95% of the folks online are full of poo. Trolls need to be ignored. Just my opinion, such as it is.

[Shaughn Leayme]

Now this kind of statement drives me around the bend.

Quote:

"I am a very casual acquaintance of Rob Leatham. His status in the world of shooting games is unparalleled, and he deserves all the acclaim he enjoys. However, without going into details, my personal knowledge of his behaviour in other areas of life means that I have to disagree with calling him a good role model."

If the person in question is not present to defend his reputation , then a statement such as this should not even be posted. I have been the victim of the "whisper..Whisper..or I have heared or I know" brigade and I find the saying "If you can't say anything good about a person you should stay silent" should be applied.

The media has proven that people will believe unfounded allegations and today's rumour will become tomorrows fact and once it is believed to be such. No display fo the truth will convince the majority otherwise.

If you have the documentation to prove the allegation, post it, but just to infer it, that is wrong in my opinion.

Debate the persons style of shooting, choice of weapon or public statements or political ones, otherwise it should be left alone.

This is one of the reasons I will abandon a board, I am not here to listen to the bashing/smearing of a persons reputation, but to interact with others about the fine art of shooting and other fundamentals.

If information comes to light and bears close scrutiny...GO FOR IT...otherwise....

[444]

Everybody has their own opinion of what is right and wrong, good and evil, acceptable behavior etc. True, there are givens that have been accepted by pretty much everyone for centuries or more, but other things are much more grey. The problem with making veiled statments about someone elses character is that everyone assumes the worst. Again, we all have our own ideas of what would make someone a bad role model and since we have no specifics, we assume he meets our own criteria when in fact it may be something that we don't care about at all. If a guy goes out and gets roaring drunk every Saturday night, some people would be appalled by it. Other wouldn't care. If some guy smokes pot, some people would have him put in irons, others wouldn't care at all. If a guy chases women all the time, some would have him sterilized, others wouldn't care in the least.
I for one don't care if the person mentioned is a role model or not. I would appreciate his input on the subject of this forum: guns, shooting, handloading etc.

This ties in with a very popular current news story. When it comes to election to the baseball hall of fame I don't care what Pete Rose did other than the fact that he was certainly one of the greatest baseball players of all time. His personal life may have been a mess, but on the field as a player he was not only hall of fame material but would be one of the best players in the hall of fame regardless of era. It is the BASEBALL hall of fame not the role model hall of fame. I am sure plenty of dirt could be dug up about a lot of members of the hall, but I don't see why you would want to.

[AZLibertarian]

Shaughn,
Didn't mean to "drive you round the bend", but I have my reasons for my feelings about Rob Leatham. If Rob were here, and wanted to get into this, I'd be happy to discuss it with him. But since he's not, I won't go into further detail.

My point was in response to another's view that Rob is a good role model, and that he shoots well. As I said, the two issues are completely seperate.

I'm not making a direct parallel here, but two years ago, many who follow basketball thought Kobe Bryant was a good role model--both on the court and off. Today, that opinion for many has changed. He's still a great basketball player...no one can take that away from him. But his (alleged) off-court behavior has brought him down a peg. I'm betting he's not signing as many autographs as he once did.

I probably didn't make my point clearly enough. I think that the public's acceptance of an expert's achievements in his field are often transferred to every area of his life. Many of us believe that Kobe Bryant isn't a model husband. Jay Leno may be a great comedian/emcee, but is he a good Dad? I don't know--any more than whether he pays his taxes. I guess I see being a "good role model" as going much further than any success one might get in a professional endeavor, that it would be hard to give that label to someone that is known only for their professional successes.

[Shaughn Leayme]

AZLibertarian,

Thanks for the qualification.

I have in the past had to suffer from the inference of wrongdoing and conduct unbecoming and it is a stigma that can be almost impossible to shake off and I know for a fact in my situation that I was totally clean and above board and had the documentation and witnesses to prove it, but my reputation was shredded and the atmosphere was such that a new line of work was the perscribed course.

Pardon, the shot across the bows as it is still a touchy subject.

[BluesBear]

I agree that the acomplishments of an entertainer should be kept separate from their personal life.

Actors and Sports figures are just entertainers.


And just for the record. Jay Leno has no children.

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

I'd like to think that, if I have a question or a problem, that by gathering all the information I need from sources I respect, trust, and take the time to consult I can make my own conclusion to the problem at hand.

So far it has worked out ok for me, and I'm starting to be considered old in some circles.

I consider some of those sources 'expert', if not knowledgeable. If they know more than I do, that is the primary criteria. Sometimes I just like to hear opinions so that I can possibly more closely define my own or be enlightened on new subjects.

I figure it's my job to make the distinction on what I consider to be an 'expert source'.

Regards,
Rabbit.

[Majic]

The points recently made is part of what I was saying earlier in the thread. We may or may not be who we say we are over the internet. Only a very few people would actually know as this is read world wide. I really don't care if you are well known in your field or just an accomplished reader who knows to recites common accepted facts. The facts you put forth in your statements are the only things I consider. I'm not impressed by how you arrived at them and will never just accept them just because you say so. Fame and glory is one thing, but your path in the field doesn't necessarily mean that's the only route. Life is full of side roads that will lead you to the same destination. If an knowledgeable person says that to accomplish something then this is the way then that's his/her own personal opinion. Someone else may have an alternative, but does that makes them wrong? We are taught to question things for which we don't fully understand, but on the other hand we can offer alternatives that the knowledgeable person have omitted, for what ever reasons (be it unknown to them or they find it more difficult, or it's just plain wrong), and the knowledgeable person can comment on their experience on it or sit back and absorb new information to them. There's room for growth in everyone. To just accept something from someone, who you really don't know or even know that this is in fact that person, while having doubts and not seeking clarification for yourself is foolish.
In summary I dont' really care who you say you are, only that what you say on the subject has any relevancy. If I don't understand then I will question for me personally to learn. The intelligent will explain their thoughts. If I was wrong then I have learned something, but if I was just looking at it from a different perspective and arrive at the same conclusion then the intelligent would accept that as something they knew but chose to omit or have learned an alternative themselves. How you arrived at your opinions, be it personal experience or just facts gathering, means nothing. The word "expert" is overrated and with the fallacies of human nature it gets abused sometimes as egos enter the picture.

Your acceptence of someone as an expert and and their thoughts on a subject shouldn't mean that everyone else should do the same. We are all different and have our faults. That is the purpose of discussions, to express one's ideas. What we gain from the discussion is totally up to the individual.

[444]

If there is a discussion, we can all learn. If it is just a pissing contest, then it is a waste of time.
As was repeated over and over again in this thread, the idea isn't to accept was anyone says without question. Let me repeat that again, the idea isn't to accept what someone says without question. Once again, the idea isn't to accept what someone says without question. The idea is to be nice, have some class, ask all the questions you want in a non-confrontational manner. Treat others as you would if you met them in person. Treat others as you would like to be treated yourself.
We can flex our muscles all we want on the internet, but 99.9% of us would be nice in person if we were questioning a stranger. If a guy walked into the local gunstore and a question came up, and he answered it we wouldn't yell out that he was full of crap and make idle threats to him. We may question him, but it would be done in a way so that we didn't look like an ???, and in a way that didn't get us punched in the nose. Same should be true on the internet.
And before someone else posts that we shouldn't just accept what someone says without question, we all know that. Just question with class, don't feel like you have to back everyone into a corner. If you can be adult about this, everyone can have a good time and everyone can learn. Otherwise we can start yet another thread asking for pictures of bone stock guns that look just like every other model of that same gun that anyone can see in a catalog.

[Tim Burke]

I really don't care if you are well known in your field or just an accomplished reader who knows to recites common accepted facts. The facts you put forth in your statements are the only things I consider.
So you aren't looking for knowledge, but the ability for someone to explain something to you? We can sit around all day and debate how many teeth a horse has, and come up with dandy explanations for why each of our opinions is right. If we really want to know how many teeth the horse has, we should count them. And when some guy walks in and says, "I've just counted them, the horse has 26 teeth" it's time to quit debating the issue.
It's entirely possible to put together a perfectly logical, rational sounding argument that leads one to the wrong conclusion. Better to have an expert tell you up front the correct conclusion. If you want to question him about how he arrived at his conclusion, that might be OK. But if you say, "what do you mean the horse has 26 teeth?" after he comes in and tells you that he has just counted them, don't be surprised if he concludes that further discussion with you is a waste of time.

[wingman]

If it is just a pissing contest, then it is a waste of time.


True, on boards such as this it seems we have a large number of "high school
debating team" failures and it becomes a matter of winning more then learning.:banghead:

[Highland Ranger]

I vote for civil but open discourse. That's the point of an (anon) web forum no?

And the civility should be maintained for technical AND political topics.

Some folks here seem to think that if a 2A or gun rights discussion comes up, they have the right to write rabid responses . . .

[Tamara]

they have the right to write rabid responses . . .

Amazing alliteration! Attaboy!

:D

[NavajoNPaleFace]

I know one thing for sure.

I'm not much of an expert on anything as I'm constantly running into people who know things that I don't.

Life experiences are just that. We have knowledge of what WE experience whereas someone else my have experienced things some of us have not.

I figure it this way: the day I die I will still have managed to learn something new, lol.

[TechBrute]

All I have to say is that Pat Rogers seems to be a man of few words. When he bothers to post something, I'm absolutely positive that it's something that he is intimately knowledgable about. When he posts, I STFDASTFU so I can listen intently.

Tam, I'm right behind you on the 15 year olds with the silly handles spouting nonsense.

Edited to add:

When I originally made this post I had no idea about the issue that sparked this thread. I've since figured it out and I am beside myself. What 444 said in the other thread was right on: some of us pay thousands of dollars for a few days worth of instruction from Pat and others like him. I think that someone pretty much singlehandedly lost us the ability to glean some free info from him in the comfort of our own homes on this board. Luckily, Pat can still be found as the moderator of the Force Recon board of TF.

[aerod1]

444, I totally agree. One reason I come to these boards is to learn from those whom are more knowledgeable than I. I consider myself a "student of the gun", so if one of the experts on this forum wants to shed some light on a subject, I am content to learn and not criticize.

Jim Hall

[raz-0]

Well, I agree with the basic underlying premis that the highroad is a place where politness and good behavior are strongly encouraged. I like the fact that people here are encouraged to not be jerks.

however it cuts both ways. I've been on here and involved in discussions where someone has a lot of experience in a given field, and is willing to share their advice. But then again, there's a number of people who put in the years and know a lot of stuff, but just aren't keeping to the not being a jerk guidelines themselves.

Sure, a good gunsmith might know what works, but they tell a bunch of curious and smart folks what works, then they really should expect a couple people to ask why it works, or why doing it that way is better than doign it another way. And they shouldn't take that to mean they are being accused of being wrong.

Never did like any of the teachers that discouraged the asking of questions anymore than I liked those that insist they know how tings are in the face of clearly being wrong. Both hamper the learning process.

[mec]

Alwasy good to double check everything.

There is a recognized writer- expert who I viewed as a very credible source of information on just about anything handgun related. Then he wrote an article to the effect that all primer cups are the same and there are no hard or soft primers. Now I have to re-examine everything else he has written.

[Byron Quick]

444- good thread.

"Expert" or expert? Depends. There's plenty of wannabe "experts" out there. (Buckshot is the thing for dangerous game:D) And there are experts who are the real thing.

There is a fallacious notion in American society that each individual has a right to his opinion on any subject. With the implication that his opinion is as good as anyone else's...and better than most.

Sorry, my opinions on the correct methods of plumbing are not equal to a master plumber's opionions in his field of expertise. Nor are my opinions on brain surgery equal to the opinions of a neurosurgeon.

And my experience with various areas of shooting and hunting do not make my opinions equal to someone who has thousands of hours more experience than I do.

When I'm discussing their areas of expertise with them, it would be of great benefit to 1) listen 2)ask questions and 3) give them the same courtesy I give anyone else.

[Matt G]

Friends, in the last few prolonged discussions of contrary viewpoints that you've had with other people, did you ever find yourself admitting that the other party had made a good point, or even that you might well be wrong?

No? :confused:

If the answer really is no, then I submit that you've been wasting your time, and likely the time of the others you've been discussing (or arguing) with.

Why?

Because if you're finding yourself to never be wrong, or at least correctable on a given position, then you are either:
Sometimes wrong, and are too closed-minded to learn and realize it, or

Arguing with complete imbeciles who could never be right, and who thus are not worth arguing with.


If someone is worthy of your argument, they're worthy of your respect. Take the time and holster your ego and learn. :)

[Art Eatman]

I can't help but think back over my own life, after having read all these posts.

I got into car racing back in the mid-1950s. That led to a beginning at auto mechanics. I got my degree in mechanical engineering and worked a year at the Chev test lab and then wound up in a state agency in Texas. For "side money", I started doing tuneups and brake jobs and then valve jobs and engine overhauls for both myself and for occasional customers. I got into sports car racing as a one-man band, doing all my own work.

I became the Car Guru where I worked. People knew what I was doing. People would come to me with questions, describing problems and then asking for solutions and costs. I'd give an answer based on several experiences, and bless Pat if they wouldn't argue! And these were people who knew me and of my experiences, face to face!

Fast forward to the Internet and its anonymity. IMO, if people get answers that don't suit them, or answers they don't understand, they just can't accept them. (Some people, not all.) The anonymity makes them feel safe in responding with some sort of flaming behavior...

Now, I've been "messin'" with guns for some sixty years. I don't claim to know all there is to know, but I'm not "eat up with the stoopids", either. Lots of folks here know more about the specifics of certain firearms than I do. Or scopes. Or African hunting. Or Alaskan bears. I have a a pretty good memory, however, about the gist of comments during my years at TFL and THR.

So I don't lay any claim to being an expert. I don't think of myself as any sort of Guru. You'll notice that I generally don't "give advice". I comment about what has worked for me and what I've learned, and if that doesn't suit somebody, "Surf on, Bubba!". :D

Art

[HankB]

I work in an R&D environment, and we have a saying around here - "An expert is the guy who knows one more fact than the next guy."

Jeff Cooper once said that "Just because a man has been there and done that, doesn't mean he knows what the h*** he's talking about."

Let's take an example. Suppose a hypothetical poster at THR is an assembler for S&W revolvers, and has been at it for 30 years. Many would consider him to be an "expert" on S&W revolvers, and regard anything he said about S&W revolvers to be gospel.

BUT - as an assembler, his "expertise" consists of putting them together so they meet S&W standards. It's unlikely that the revolvers he's "expertly" put together will meet with the approval of, say, a top level PPC revolver champion, who will most likely take the "expertly" assembled revolver to a custom 'smith for tuning.

And who knows - maybe the revolvers he puts together "barely" meet S&W's standards, but he's still on the job because he's fast at squeaking by. We've probably all met people who've been on the job for a long time and yet have job skills that are somewhat less than exemplary. Maybe our hypothetical "expert" thinks that "good enough is perfect."

AND - this is very important - as an S&W employee, our hypothetical revolver expert assembler should NOT be regarded as an objective source of information - his "expert opinions" WILL be shaded by his own self interest, since his paycheck depends on his keeping his job and his employer's business remaining healthy. Even "expert opinions" may be shaded by vested interests and a lack of objectivity - even if there's no deliberate attempt at deception.

[P95Carry]

If someone is worthy of your argument, they're worthy of your respect. Matt ....... well put and so true. And .. respect should be reciprocal unless abused by one party.

Fascinating thread this has become ... :)

[Byron Quick]

Both the "just good enough" assembler of S&W revolvers and the gunsmith who tunes the S&W revolvers assembled by the "just good enough" S&W assembler trump my knowledge of S&W revolvers. Seems to me I should learn from both of them. And then decide which is pertinent to my needs. Each of these guys' opinions on S&W revolvers far outweigh my opinions on S&W revolvers.

[HankB]

Each of these guys' opinions on S&W revolvers far outweigh my opinions on S&W revolvers. Same here . . . to a point. But just because they have more experience, doesn't mean they're infallible, or that what they say should be blindly accepted. Experts can be wrong - and often are. Disturbingly often, in the firearms arena.

How many times here at THR (and at TFL) have people reported being given factually incorrect advice on firearms law by the presumed "experts" at BATF, or for that matter, other LEOs? (Dillon's latest "Blue Press" catalog contains a story of two BATF agents seizing a Thompson SMG as an unlicensed machine gun . . . only problem was, these presumed "experts" didn't recognize it as a non-firing movie prop.)

And what happens when "experts" disagree? When it comes to handgun stopping power, we have Martin Facker on one side, and Evan Marshall on the other. Both experts - yet little or no agreement.

Jeff Cooper is widely regarded as an expert, and, in truth, many of his opinions rightly carry a lot of weight. But . . . by every measurment, his beloved .45 is not quite the hammer of Thor he thinks it is, nor is the 9mm the worthless wimpy pipsqueak he claims. And his opinions on rifles are, in many cases, well, questionable.

Don't get me wrong - "experts" have much to offer, and I'd certainly listen to what my hypothetical S&W assembler had to say. But I'd ask questions, weigh his answers . . . and if something didn't add up, maybe get a second opinion.

[TechBrute]

I work in an R&D environment, and we have a saying around here - "An expert is the guy who knows one more fact than the next guy."

Jeff Cooper once said that "Just because a man has been there and done that, doesn't mean he knows what the h*** he's talking about."

Let's take an example. Suppose a hypothetical poster at THR is an assembler for S&W revolvers, and has been at it for 30 years. Many would consider him to be an "expert" on S&W revolvers, and regard anything he said about S&W revolvers to be gospel.

BUT - as an assembler, his "expertise" consists of putting them together so they meet S&W standards. It's unlikely that the revolvers he's "expertly" put together will meet with the approval of, say, a top level PPC revolver champion, who will most likely take the "expertly" assembled revolver to a custom 'smith for tuning.

And who knows - maybe the revolvers he puts together "barely" meet S&W's standards, but he's still on the job because he's fast at squeaking by. We've probably all met people who've been on the job for a long time and yet have job skills that are somewhat less than exemplary. Maybe our hypothetical "expert" thinks that "good enough is perfect."

AND - this is very important - as an S&W employee, our hypothetical revolver expert assembler should NOT be regarded as an objective source of information - his "expert opinions" WILL be shaded by his own self interest, since his paycheck depends on his keeping his job and his employer's business remaining healthy. Even "expert opinions" may be shaded by vested interests and a lack of objectivity - even if there's no deliberate attempt at deception.

Hank, that's a good illustration, but let me tell you kind of what we're talking about here. Take the S&W assembler. We'll call him Jake. Let's say that not only is Jake the assembler, but he's also the guy that designed the revolver that he assembles. They let's say that someone on the board starts discussing the mechanics of the revolver he assembles. Jake makes a few comments on the discussion, hoping to clear up some misconceptions. Another member of our forum decides to hop in the middle of the discussion and comment that revolver assemblers are all morons. Now, keep in mind that Jake is the person that designed the revolver from scratch and hand assembles every single one. This makes Jake the foremost expert on this subject. The other member, not knowing who Jake is, proceeds to flap his mouth about how revolver assemblers are morons, driving Jake to stop "wasting" his time on this board. We now no longer have Jake as a resource on this board.

Jeff Cooper is widely regarded as an expert, and, in truth, many of his opinions rightly carry a lot of weight. But . . . by every measurment, his beloved .45 is not quite the hammer of Thor he thinks it is, nor is the 9mm the worthless wimpy pipsqueak he claims. And his opinions on rifles are, in many cases, well, questionable.

Don't get me wrong - "experts" have much to offer, and I'd certainly listen to what my hypothetical S&W assembler had to say. But I'd ask questions, weigh his answers . . . and if something didn't add up, maybe get a second opinion. Yes, but would you call Col. Cooper the following: "hacks, shills and boobs whose information was riddled with flaws, inaccuaracies,blatant lies, and ignorance."?

[labgrade]

Great post, 444!

Always considered that I knew a thing or two about some things, & I do, but am certainly no expert - even after 40+ years reloading & better'n that hunting.

I remember Gayle's TFL thread on fluting rifle barrels ("yup, 'cause they get $2 an inch per cut." ROTFLMAF on that one!) & his threads on barrel cleaning.

H&HHunter has taught me reams about huntings things I thought I knew pretty well.

... bunch more.

Art's classic, quoted reply re the Beltway "Snipers," = "they experience a degree of shooting sophistication of any normal 12 year-old rural kid." Classic! I'd thought the same the, but hadn't the words = so apt.

& CRSam's short-liners always made me want to yak less ... but, there I go again.

Back to listening to the experts.

:D

[Prodigalshooter]

I think this thread is why THR (&TFL) is such a valuable resource. Not too many forums have the thoughtful, well written posts found here; forums about guns, knives and "tactical things" tend to even less. I am proud to read most of what is printed here, anyone who wanted to stereotype firearms owners would have to go elsewhere to feed their agenda. Most of the time.;)

[HankB]

Let's say that not only is Jake the assembler, but he's also the guy that designed the revolver that he assembles . . . TechBrute: You make some good points - but let's say that instead of working for S&W, Jake designed and built the Colt All American 2000 pistol. That would make Jake the foremost expert on its design. But . . . would it make him a competent gun designer? And if he were to show up here and start praising it, should the guys who had one or tested one just shut up and refrain from criticism, lest we lose an expert resource? Hmmm . . . . . . would you call Col. Cooper the following: "hacks, shills and boobs whose information was riddled with flaws, inaccuaracies,blatant lies, and ignorance."? Uhhh . . . well, you quoted my post, and you'll notice, I didn't, though I believe it was clear that I disagree with the Colonel in some areas.

OTOH I've encountered some gunwriters/posters/ad writers who would fit in the category of "hacks, shills and boobs . . ." ;)

Bottom line - if a person represents himself as an expert - especially in an area in which he has a vested interest - he should expect to be challenged, and be ready, willing, and able to defend himself or his position, as long as the discourse remains reasonably civil.

[Obiwan]

I think the most important thing is for all of us to...know what we don't know....you know.....

Seriously...I get a kick out of how often people act like ANY criticism of their favorite weapon system is akin to being told that their kids are stupid...

Maybe my kids dad is stupid but.......hey...wait a minute!


:uhoh:

To overuse the Pat Rogers analogy ( And yes , Pat has told me on a least one occaison to "bite him"...hard to believe he didn't appreciate my sense of humor I know)

Pat, when he teaches presents A WAY...Not THE WAY...

But his way is at least proven...in the real world.

And just try to get a product review out of him before he is ready to render a judgement...not gonna happen.

And yet we have scores of people here that will give glowing reports based on what someone told them that they heard that someone read .

Or saw in a gunrag...PLEASE:barf:

We have self proclaimed experts willing to tell you to "throw away" your new handgun , carbine etc.....just because they don't want one....

I am all for squashing bad information of the type that could get someone hurt.....

But there is a whole lot of this information that is totally subjective...depends on your preferences...

[TechBrute]

To overuse the Pat Rogers analogy...
Well, basically this whole thread was sparked because someone wanted to argue with Pat about an article that HE was interview for, about a pistol that HE wrote the specs for. In the member's defense, I'm sure he didn't know who he was talking to, but he also didn't know when to can it, either. (Something that I'm guilty of, from time to time.)

The thread that sparked it all... (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58044&perpage=60&pagenumber=1)

[444]

Hey now, how do you know what started it ? :scrutiny:
Actually , that thread didn't start it, it was only one, of a few threads I have read over the years that took the same path.
I am sure the gentleman didn't know Pat's background and thought it was just another clown like me. I feel certain that if that gentleman knew what was going on that none of that would have happened. Which is why I suggest keeping an open mind and suspecting that some of those people on the other end of the computer might be experts in every sense of the word.

Jeff Cooper, a name that seems to crop up regularly.
"I believe it was clear that I disagree with the Colonel in some areas."
Me too. But not many.
Colonel Cooper is a good example because we know some of his background. He is fairly highly educated, served as a Marine officer in combat, put together from many sources what is referred to as "The Modern Technique of the Pistol", was one of the founders of what we refer to as "Practical Shooting" today. Started what was to become one of the top two or three firearms training facilities in the world that regularly trains people from all walks of life including elite military units as well as law enforcement officers of all flavors from all over the world. Was a mainstream gun writer for magazines and has published at least a half dozen books. Spent probably 40 years right in the heart of the "click" of the gun culture, hobnobbing with the elite of the industry and shooting sports, has had more than one gun manufactured by large firearms companies named after either him or his school...........................
This doesn't make him always right, but it makes him somone that I pay particular attention to and think long and hard before I disagree with him. Certainly he isn't someone I would get into a petty squabble with over the internet......or anywhere else for that matter.

[TechBrute]

Hey now, how do you know what started it ?
My bad. I assumed, and you know what happens when you assume...:D

I probably should have called it "the thread that broke the camel's back."

[444]

That sums it up nicely.
:D

[Jeeper]

Pretty interesting thread.

I see one big problem with the internet. Every idiot has an opinion. Even if I know 100% that I am right there is only so long I can argue with some fool before I feel like I am pissing into the wind. The internet allows a lot of incompetents to say stuff that is total BS. I think it takes a while to learn who are the people out there that arent just posting because they trully have nothing better to do while their porn is downloading. :)

[Joe Demko]

Well now, let's talk about expertise...At this here very board (and its predecessor) I have been involved in a good many discussions with fellow members about the public education system. The sole claim to expertise that most members have is that they were students, once. Did that stop them from explaining to me _at great and vituperative length_the the educational system is, in fact, a commie-NAMBLA-NEA-Demoncrat-Nazi-Illuminati-Elders of Zion plot to subvert all that is good, patriotic, and Xtian about America? No. Likewise, has the fact that most of what they think they know about police work is what they've seen on Teevee EVER stopped my fellow members from second guessing or criticizing the actions of a cop? No. And EVERY LAST BLEEDING ONE OF US just HAS to offer up his/her two cents about what the various politicians are or aren't doing right, though none of us have ever done their jobs. If the various gun experts that may have passed through can't take the heat, then I submit that the kitchen door is just over there...

[SunBear]

I would plead with the "very knowledgable and experienced" (instead of expert) shooters on this site not to be put off or run off by some cretin hiding behind a keyboard, throwing rocks at what he doesn't understand. Happy New Year y'all.

[Lennyjoe]

Life is one big learning experience.

Once we stop learning in life we are dead.

[Iron Mike]

Perhaps I can be of help here because I am an expert on virtually any subject so if you have any questions feel free to ask and if upon that rare instance I dont know the answer I will lie so seamlessly that even if you know Im lying you will still belive me
Molon Labrador (come and take my big black dog)

[standingbear]

IT'S my lie and I'll tell it any way I want.:D :D