Small win! Local library no longer properly posted!


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TNboy
March 28, 2011, 04:20 PM
I just visited my local library. I go there often actually and there have always been signs on all of the doors that say "no guns allowed" and I believe they had the TCA code on them as well. Now instead of singnage on everydoor there is only one signs by the lobby door going into the building that reads "no guns, knives, or weapons allowed on premesis" with no TCA code cited. Nice to know I can now carry my gun with me when I go to the library.

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jcwit
March 28, 2011, 04:42 PM
First off I carry whereever it legal, BUT

no TCA code cited. Nice to know I can now carry my gun with me when I go to the library.

Is it REALLY, REALLY gonna be worth it if they call the cops and you go thru all the hassle just to prove a point?

Plus the fact if you're in a small town you're on the watch list then.

NG VI
March 28, 2011, 04:45 PM
I'm thinking if he has to shoot someone while at the library there will be bigger issues than the postage. I'm sure they'll work all that out if it comes up.



That's pretty sweet, it's nice to not have to worry about leaving it in the car while you go insde.

merlinfire
March 28, 2011, 05:06 PM
Is it REALLY, REALLY gonna be worth it if they call the cops and you go thru all the hassle just to prove a point?

People can get pretty upset about late fines! ;)

HorseSoldier
March 28, 2011, 05:51 PM
I have trouble seeing it as any sort of win that an error on the establishment's part allows for barracks lawyering to allow CCW. If the police get called they may or may not agree with the OP's interpretation of the law, if they don't prosecutors may or may not agree with his interpretation, if they don't a jury may or may not and so on and so on. OP might win, or he might end up like the idiot in Nevada who challenged that state's requirement to identify yourself law and dragged a $250 fine all the way to the Supreme Court only to lose.

(And, hell, it's Tennessee -- my recollection of said place is that it's got to be a less uphill climb to just push back on that law than most places. A little activism and letter writing might go a long way to actually undo that restriction in a de jure and not just de facto/accidental way.)

Magoo
March 28, 2011, 05:58 PM
The majority of the signage I see here in SC is not to the letter of the law. Heck, the law is so poorly written there's one sentence that makes absolutely no sense and must not have been proofread. Just last week I was at the city tax office and their sign was nowhere close to right.

That said, here in SC, it's illegal to carry in any publicly owned building whether it's posted or not. I don't know if TN law is similar.

ETA (sorry if it's hijacky): [note section B5 ?!?]

SECTION 23-31-235. Sign requirements.

(A) Notwithstanding any other provision of this article, any requirement of or allowance for the posting of signs prohibiting the carrying of a concealable weapon upon any premises shall only be satisfied by a sign expressing the prohibition in both written language interdict and universal sign language.

(B) All signs must be posted at each entrance into a building where a concealable weapon permit holder is prohibited from carrying a concealable weapon and must be:

(1) clearly visible from outside the building;

(2) eight inches wide by twelve inches tall in size;

(3) contain the words “NO CONCEALABLE WEAPONS ALLOWED” in black one inch tall uppercase type at the bottom of the sign and centered between the lateral edges of the sign;

(4) contain a black silhouette of a handgun inside a circle seven inches in diameter with a diagonal line that runs from the lower left to the upper right at a forty five degree angle from the horizontal;

(5) a diameter of a circle; and

(6) placed not less than forty inches and not more than sixty inches from the bottom of the building’s entrance door.

(C) If the premises where concealable weapons are prohibited does not have doors [window/Dukes of Hazard entry only] , then the signs contained in subsection (A) must be:

(1) thirty six inches wide by forty eight inches tall in size;

(2) contain the words “NO CONCEALABLE WEAPONS ALLOWED” in black three inch tall uppercase type at the bottom of the sign and centered between the lateral edges of the sign;

(3) contain a black silhouette of a handgun inside a circle thirty four inches in diameter with a diagonal line that is two inches wide and runs from the lower left to the upper right at a forty five degree angle from the horizontal and must be a diameter of a circle whose circumference is two inches wide;

(4) placed not less than forty inches and not more than ninety six inches above the ground;

(5) posted in sufficient quantities to be clearly visible from any point of entry onto the premises.

NavyLCDR
March 28, 2011, 06:14 PM
Nice to know I can now carry my gun with me when I go to the library.

Go all the way and open carry. If you carry concealed, whose going to care anyway?

Rembrandt
March 28, 2011, 08:31 PM
If you have to use it in the Library.....you'll probably be asked to leave for violating the noise rules.

wishin
March 28, 2011, 10:03 PM
If you have to use it in the Library.....you'll probably be asked to leave for violating the noise rules.
LOL. That's probably the reason for their no gun policy. Get a silencer as long as you're flaunting the law.:evil:

Giterboosted
March 30, 2011, 03:35 AM
Well I live two min from the sc line here in ga, and about that dukes clause, I've never seen a window on any building anywhere with a car hood outside it that I hafta slide across first before entering lol

GWARGHOUL
March 30, 2011, 11:55 AM
Oh man, that just gave me an idea for a floorplan I'm working on in a Engineering Drafting class.

All entrances have automatic windows that are activated by a car hood slide towards them.

bobbo
March 30, 2011, 12:23 PM
Nice to know I can now carry my gun with me when I go to the library.

Until you accidentally drop it on the floor. Then they call the cops, you get to say "Ha!"... then they ban you for life.

I actually like my library, so I won't risk it over something a lame as "proving a point."

youngda9
March 30, 2011, 12:36 PM
Until you accidentally drop it on the floor. Then they call the cops, you get to say "Ha!"... then they ban you for life.

I actually like my library, so I won't risk it over something a lame as "proving a point."
You'll give up your ability to defend yourself and your loved ones, legally in the library now, because of some silly sign that carries NO weight of law....I guess we all have to draw the line somewhere....

jcwit
March 30, 2011, 12:47 PM
You'll give up your ability to defend yourself and your loved ones, legally in the library now, because of some silly sign that carries NO weight of law....I guess we all have to draw the line somewhere....

And maybe because of a slip-up by the signage in the library you end up in legal trouble and possibably get convicted, and loose your rights for life. After all no one can predict how a jury will deside a verdict.

youngda9
March 30, 2011, 12:58 PM
And maybe because of a slip-up by the signage in the library
you end up in legal trouble and possibably get convicted, and loose your rights for life.
After all no one can predict how a jury will deside a verdict.
If it's not properly posted, as the OP states...then it carries no weight of law.
Not sure why people aren't understanding this.

TN law clearly states:
Notice of such prohibition shall be posted. Posted notices shall be displayed
in prominent locations, including all entrances primarily used by persons entering
the building,portion of the building or buildings where weapon possession is
prohibited. If the possession of weapons is also prohibited on the premises of
any such property as well as within the confines of a building located on such
property, the notice shall be posted at all entrances to the premises that are
primarily used by persons entering the property.

Mainsail
March 30, 2011, 01:02 PM
In Washington it's completely lawful to carry a loaded handgun in the library- concealed with a proper CPL or openly without, regardless of any sign they may post.

jcwit
March 30, 2011, 01:04 PM
If it's not properly posted, as the OP states...then it carries no weight of law. Not sure why people aren't understanding this

I understand it perfectly, I also understand that courtroom decisions do not go the ways we wish. If you believe they always do, you're badly informed.

Here in Indiana its not required to carry concealed, one can carry open as long as they have a permit, but then try to explane all that to an Officer holding you, might proove a point, but then? I was young once and had an idealistic attidude. I'm older now and pratcical.

youngda9
March 30, 2011, 01:14 PM
I understand it perfectly, I also understand that courtroom decisions do not go the ways we wish. If you believe they always do, you're badly informed.
So now you believe juries are not instructed to follow the law? They will convict simply because they "feel" that something is illegal. That would get thrown out in a heartbeat...your suggestion is ludicrous. There would never be a case anyways...the fony charges would be dropped instantly as soon as someone said "what law did he break".

Here in Indiana its not required to carry concealed, one can carry open as long as they have a permit, but then try to explane all that to an Officer holding you, might proove a point, but then? I was young once and had an idealistic attidude. I'm older now and pratcical.

I live in Indiana as well. I read stories all the time about people being harassed, to one degree or another, by police officers. I don't recall ever hearing about being arrested for OC, which is perfectly legal in Indiana.

I can't wrap my mind around living your life afraid of getting arrested and prosecuted for things that are perfectly legal. I refuse to live like that. You can call it "practical"...but that's not what I'd call it.

Read and know the law. Law is Law, and it's all written in black and white for anyone to understand...don't play the "what if" game based on what you "feel" is right/wrong.

jcwit
March 30, 2011, 01:25 PM
Read and know the law. Law is Law, and it's all written in black and white for anyone to understand...don't play the "what if" game based on what you "feel" is right/wrong.

Tell that to those who have been wrongly convicted or excuted for that matter. Yes the law is the law, but we do not live in a perfect world, more gray than black & white, doubt it?, look at politics.

youngda9
March 30, 2011, 01:31 PM
Tell that to those who have been wrongly convicted or excuted for that matter. Yes the law is the law, but we do not live in a perfect world, more gray than black & white, doubt it?, look at politics.
That is a humongous leap from this discussion.

I posted the law in post #15 and even bolded and underlined the important parts for you. OP said the doors are no longer posted. Therefore the signage doesn't mean squat.
Case Dismissed.

pockets
March 30, 2011, 01:32 PM
Oh my.....I just had a mental picture of Judge Dredd in a library fondling his Lawgiver and screaming, "I am the law!". :D

jcwit
March 30, 2011, 01:47 PM
That is a humongous leap from this discussion.


How so, maybe in your oponion.

Mainsail
March 30, 2011, 04:25 PM
Here in Indiana its not required to carry concealed, one can carry open as long as they have a permit, but then try to explane all that to an Officer holding you...

It was no different here in Washington a few years ago. Like I said, you don't need a permit or license of any kind to open carry, yet the police would still badger you for doing so. Do you know how we changed that? We started carrying openly! We recorded our encounters and put them on notice; the rules of a Terry stop apply. Today you can walk around Seattle with your handgun holstered on your belt and the police will not stop you.

jcwit
March 31, 2011, 02:25 AM
Maybe this thread will explain my position better.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=584290

ultradoc
March 31, 2011, 09:06 AM
Several months ago they took the no gun sinage down from my local library. I carried then and I carry now.

ForumSurfer
March 31, 2011, 09:36 AM
And maybe because of a slip-up by the signage in the library you end up in legal trouble and possibably get convicted, and loose your rights for life. After all no one can predict how a jury will deside a verdict.

That's a complete non-issue. If the poster follows the letter of the law, then he has no worries. Concealed means concealed. Unless he needs to use it, no one should know he has it.

It isn't a victory. It is simply s slip up on the part of management.

That being said, I don't see where there is room for discussion on this? We follow the law and carry everywhere we are allowed should we so choose. The location is either properly posted or it isn't. If a location isn't properly posted, I'm not going to disarm. It isn't "proving a point." It is me exercising my right to carry. It isn't my fault they improperly executed their right to disallow me exercising my right to carry on their property.

Sam1911
March 31, 2011, 09:42 AM
...as long as you're flaunting the law.

Not sure if this is what you meant, but in this case flaunting the law would be perfectly appropriate.

Flaunt: 1. Display (something) ostentatiously, esp. in order to provoke envy or admiration or to show defiance

He could flaunt the law to any officer who attempted to give him a hard time for his legal act.

Now, if you meant flout (i.e.: "Openly disregard a rule, law or convention") then he can't be doing that if he's not actually breaking any law.

TX1911fan
March 31, 2011, 06:04 PM
It all depends on what the law actually says. If the applicable law says that failure to post proper signage means there is no prohibition, then the OP is fine. That's how it would come out in Texas. You are not required to pay attention to any sign other than the proper sign, as specified in the statute. If, however, the law simply says that certain things should be done, but does not condition enforcement on satisfaction of those things, then the OP could have some issues. My guess is he's just fine.

jcwit
March 31, 2011, 06:53 PM
If perchance something on this order would get to a jury trial who knows what way it would go in todays world. One only has to remember some idiot dropping hot coffee on herself at Miky'D's and remember what the jury awarded the idiot.

I don't go along with it but the fact is this is todays world. Remember an asprin is considered a drug in most high schools.

The principal may be on your/our side but it'll cost a bundle to prove the principal, if in fact you even win.

straybullet
March 31, 2011, 10:40 PM
Ok, library staff notice he is carrying, call LE, they confirm he is within legal right and then the library puts up a sign that does carry the weight of law. Victory? Step on the lines where they matter IMHO.

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