What's the legality of destroying rifling on .410 handgun?


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bcp280z
March 28, 2011, 11:42 PM
Just curious, although I'm pretty sure it's illegal, if one were to purposely destroy the rifling grooves in a .410 handgun, could find themselves in trouble if ever found?

I'm sure over time shallow rifling grooves would smooth out on their own on a cheap weapon anyway. And now that I think of it, it'd be pretty hard to get caught. But that's besides the point and I am no gunsmith, nor do I actually intend on destroying something I paid money for.

Just curious if it has been done before or what the results would be.

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kalash
March 29, 2011, 01:20 AM
Would there be a point?

Sam Cade
March 29, 2011, 03:27 AM
If you did it on purpose it would be manufacturing a SBS.

bcp280z
March 29, 2011, 04:56 AM
The point would be increased accuracy with the buck/bird shot.

And that's what I was figuring, thanks for the confirmation Sam.

hirundo82
March 29, 2011, 11:27 AM
A smoothbore handgun is a Title II firearm; you'd have to submit a Form 1 to manufacture an AOW (or an SBS if you want to maybe add a stock).

Sam1911
March 29, 2011, 11:39 AM
If you did it on purpose it would be manufacturing a SBS.

Nope, but close.

If you did that it would be manufacturing an "Any Other Weapon," which is also a Title II firearm.

A "Short Barreled Shotgun" has to be "designed or redesigned" to fire from the shoulder.

Sam Cade
March 29, 2011, 11:41 AM
Nope, but close

You are correct sir, hey, it was 1:30 AM :-)

Zanad
March 29, 2011, 01:41 PM
if you wanted to, you could make/find a choke that negates the rifling. That would be your best bet.

bcp280z
March 29, 2011, 02:54 PM
How would that choke be? It would go in down the barrel and screw at end, does anybody make those for popular shotguns? Because mine is far from popular.

Zanad
April 3, 2011, 11:57 PM
this is what what I was thinking of:

http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/g2ContenderPistols.php

scroll down about half way and you see .45/410 Model.

Dan Forrester
April 9, 2011, 12:45 PM
They should just make these with shallow straight rifling with no twist at all.

Dan

M-Cameron
April 9, 2011, 12:51 PM
If you did it on purpose it would be manufacturing a SBS.

now heres a question........what if the rifling wore out......

say the barrel was made from cheap metal...or you just shot it A LOT......and all the rifling wore out leaving a more or less smooth barrel......

what would the legal ramifications be if you were caught with that......?

i mean, you didnt manufacture it, its just a result of mechanical wear.....would you still be charges with possession of an illegal weapon...?

Dreamcast270mhz
April 9, 2011, 04:35 PM
Well, there is an ongoing case where a man fired his friend's AR which had a worn out sear. Long story short someone mistook it for a Machine gun due to it firing multiple shots and the ATF is trying to put him away for ten years for it. In their eyes there is NO accidents/unintentionals.

Sam1911
April 9, 2011, 06:25 PM
Well, there is an ongoing case where a man fired his friend's AR which had a worn out sear. Long story short someone mistook it for a Machine gun due to it firing multiple shots and the ATF is trying to put him away for ten years for it. In their eyes there is NO accidents/unintentionals.


Ahem. There's a wee bit more to that story than that.

...

At any rate, if your rifling just wore out, well, I'd think that would be an unusual enough case (I mean that your rifling was shot COMPLETELY out ... GONE... nada, to the eye) that it isn't even worth worrying about, but if it was, I'm pretty sure the same kind of testing could be done as is done to retrieve obscured serial numbers in order to show that it was clearly there, and was not milled away deliberately.

Further, of course, a rifle that fires multiple rounds attracts a certain level of attention from onlookers, range officers, and passers-by. A handgun that's just abysmally inaccurate (because it has no rifling) doesn't.

Dreamcast270mhz
April 9, 2011, 10:32 PM
@Sam

Yeah I know there is more to it, (whats the name of teh case again) but .410 brings to mind shotgun, and if he was thinking about getting a cheap barrel for his pistol and wearing the hell out of it so he can use .410 shot in it without donut pattern, well, he may catch eyes of onlookers, passersby and so on if he goes to a range, and fires shot from it at a target and well pistols generally don't use shot....

Sam1911
April 10, 2011, 10:58 AM
whats the name of teh case againOlofson.

he may catch eyes of onlookers, passersby and so on if he goes to a range, and fires shot from it at a target and well pistols generally don't use shotPerhaps. But considering the growing number of .410 revolvers around -- and the fact that shotshell cartridges have always been available in all common handgun cartridges (for use in rifled barrels, no less) -- I don't see much of an issue. If I see someone firing a handgun and shot patterns on the target, the first thing that comes to mind is not, "Ohh, I wonder if he milled out all his rifling in order to fire shot more effectively." Shotshells are just too common (HERE (http://www.cabelas.com/9mm-cci-pistol-shotshell-ammunition-1.shtml)are some in 9mm), and milling out your rifling would be so counter-productive to most handgun uses that the suspicion is just not going to arise in the mind of the observer.

On the other hand, if you're on a firing range and let off a 3- round burst or a long stream of full-auto fire, everyone withing 300 yards turns around to look, and I'd wager most of them are at least going to wonder whether your rifle is legal. Some of them (if they happen to be law-enforcement agents) would have the authority/duty to wander over and request to see your paperwork. Much higher threshold of risk there.

MDW GUNS
April 10, 2011, 12:20 PM
Chances that this gets discovered are slim.
Even if a LEO checks the firearm, it is unlikely that s/he will discover it.
Unless trained on NFA laws, s/he will not even know it.
If this gun becomes subject of a criminal investigation, then it is more likely to be discovered.
On the other hand, a registration if you do it yourself is $200.
If you have it done by a manufacturer, the registration is $5 as a short barrel shot gun.
To make the story short, even if chances are small, do you want to risk for $200 all your guns and a criminal conviction??

Harley Quinn
April 11, 2011, 12:56 PM
I discussed, long ago with an Agent, then "ATF" department...
I had a 45 revolver (uses clips) that was pretty shot out, bulged barrel, cut the 6'' barrel to 3" and reamed the cylinders to accept the 308 cart full of #8 shot (snake load, own loading) :) I showed it to him...

Being brass cartridge, loaded hot!!!

He said it was legal, since it had lands and groves... That was the legal issue back then, pre 410 handgun...

:confused: as to why you would go to the trouble and take a chance :scrutiny:

N.Schafer
April 14, 2011, 10:19 PM
http://ahlmans.com/handgunwork.html
Ahlmans offers straight rifled chokes for the Judges. It does increase accuracy with shotshells dramatically. As it still leaves rifling before the choke, it is legal. And it's easier than trying to wear out your barrel :)

JustinJ
May 6, 2011, 05:35 PM
Making an illegal alteration to a gun you could someday possibly use in self defense seems like a bad idea as that would certainly get you caught.

Just keep shooting wadcutters until the grooves are too full of lead to do anything anyways.

Dimis
May 6, 2011, 05:48 PM
smoothing the rifeling wouldnt improve grouping anyway you would need a choke

mr16ga
May 16, 2011, 03:52 PM
Why is it that folks want to dance on the edge of doing something that can land them in jail for 10 years anyway? I don't even like driving past the jail at high speed.
Joe

flking
May 16, 2011, 11:40 PM
Why is it that governments are allowed to make rules that could lock up their subjects for 10 years anyway?

Joe, some laws are stupid; some people are stupid.

mr16ga
May 17, 2011, 01:12 PM
flking, You sir are correct. Stupid laws and Stupid people.

CoRoMo
May 17, 2011, 01:30 PM
What is rifling?

Seriously though, has the term been defined in US Code?

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