[JackDRipper]

Been looking to get a 9mm Kahr PM9 for awhile and now wonder about the yet to be released .380 Kel Tec P-3AT. New weapon to be used as a pocket CCW weapon. Have made a comparison chart below for the Kahr and other Kel Tec pistols. Wondering which to get? What do you think? Thanks,
JR

PM9 P-3AT P-32 P-11 Model

9mm .380 .32 9mm Caliber

5.3” 5.2” 5.1” 5.6” Length

4.0 3.5 3.5 4.3 Height

.90 .77 .75 1.0 Width

14 oz 7.2 oz 6.6 oz 14 oz Weight

1.9 oz 2.8 oz 2.8 oz 6 oz Mag Weight
loaded
6+1 6+1 7+1 10+1 Capacity

$660 $305 $300 $314 List Price
Blue
same $ $??? $355 $368 Chrome

$489+ $??? $219-239 $249-269 Street Price

[Blackhawk]

The loaded PM9 mag weighs more than 1.9 ounces....

Having carried a P-32 for a while, I'd get the P3AT, which is the same size and weight for all practical purposes. The light weight is a BIG deal, it turns out.

I also have a P-11, and it's too big for a pocket pistol.

[Tall Man]

Jack - To properly compare and contrast your pistol choices, we have to remove the as-yet nonexistant P-3AT from the equation.

[A brief interjection: Why didn't Kel-Tec maintain identification protocol and name its new pistol the P380? The title "P32" is self-explanatory, leaving only the P11 as the product needing research to determine the chambered caliber.]

P32:
The P32 is notable for its slimness and light weight, even when fully loaded. The absence of external controls makes the pistol functionally similar to a Glock pistol, although the P32 does not have a slide release lever. 32acp ball is a modest round that can certainly be lethal with proper shot placement. Risk of feeding problems due to rim lock is, in my experience, negligible at best. P32s are reasonably reliable. Kel-Tec customer service is universally acknowledged as excellent. Kel-Tec engineers and manufactures its firearms in the US of A.

P11:
With adjusments for caliber, what is true of the P32 is also true for the P11.

PM9:
From an aesthetic point of view, the PM9 is the best looking weapon being discussed here. The reliability of a Kahr pistol is reasonable to excellent. As you are already aware, there is a measurable variance in price between a Kel-Tec pistol and a Kahr pistol - the Kahr product is considerably more expensive.

P-3AT
Not yet available for rating.

Tall Man's recommendation? Get the Kahr PM9. Better yet, get a Glock 19. Always try to carry the most bang for your buck (in the sense that shooting bigger holes sometimes demands a bit more lucre at the front end.)

Let us know what you chose to purchase.

TM

TFL Alumnus

[Blackhawk]

With adjusments for caliber, what is true of the P32 is also true for the P11.The P-11 has a slide release, and it's a true DAO. The P-32 has a hammer block and leaves the hammer partially energized after racking the slide or firing a round, which is how it ends up with a 5-6# trigger.

The P-11 also has discrete sights that can be replaced whereas the P-32's sights are integral in the slide.

The P-32's slide locks open after the last round as does the P-11, but the P3AT's doesn't.

[Kilgor]

[A brief interjection: Why didn't Kel-Tec maintain identification protocol and name its new pistol the P380? The title "P32" is self-explanatory, leaving only the P11 as the product needing research to determine the chambered caliber.]

They did. Sound out P-3AT.

[Coot]

I own both the P32 and PM9, and find myself carrying the P32 more often; which pistol I reach for depends on the level of perceived threat for the day. I expect to switch over to a P3AT once it becomes available.

[tomkatz]

Tall Man's recommendation? Get the Kahr PM9. Better yet, get a Glock 19. Always try to carry the most bang for your buck (in the sense that shooting bigger holes sometimes demands a bit more lucre at the front end.)

I agree on the pm9 and the glock, but the glock 26 would seem to be more in the ballpark size wise than the 19, but then we are getting into heavier guns. I would always take the 9 over the 380 if weight and cost is not an issue.....tom

[Onslaught]

Kilgor wrote:

They did. Sound out P-3AT. Gosh I'm slow! Very funny! thanks for the lightbulb Kilgor.

I had a P32 (two actually) and sold it because I kept carrying it ALL THE TIME. I found myself leaving my Kahr 40 at home, even though I COULD have carried it, I just didn't. This, to me, was a bad influence, so I kicked the habit. :D I may have to have a P3-AT (that still cracks me up!) since the .380's performance so closely resembles the .38 snubbie, which is what I carry in my pocket now.

I agree on the pm9 and the glock, but the glock 26 would seem to be more in the ballpark size wise than the 19, but then we are getting into heavier guns. I've owned both, and handled the PM9. Not even the same ballpark sizewise... Some guys can pocket or ankle carry a G26, but not most, and NOT ME!

If the PM9 fits, then I'd take that over the KT. If it's still too big for your pocket, then the 3-AT will certainly fit.

[mini14jac]

I've got to agree with the "carry the most bang" statement.
I've got a P32, and PM9.
The P32 was my "always gun", until I got the PM9.

No matter how hard I try, pocket carry is the only thing that works for me.
With all but the tightest jeans, I can easily carry the PM9.
I'll probably have a P3AT some day, because it is basically a P32 as far as size and weight go, and I do believe in "bigger is better" when it comes to caliber.

But, realistically, unless you have a dealer who is really well connected, you won't see a P3AT for at least a year.
(I hope KelTec proves me wrong. -fingers crossed-)

PM9s have only recently become readily available.
I got mine about 4 months after they supposedly hit the market.
Luckily, I haven't had any problems in 250 rounds.

The first P3ATs will no doubt have numerous problems.
I did free "T&E" for NAA Guardian 32, and for the KelTec P32.
Lots of failures, trips to the factory, phone calls, emails, expensive shipping, etc.

I think I'll sit this one out.

[22luvr]

Once upon a time, I considered a PM9 but found the price prohibitively expensive. Also, I don't consider the almost 19oz fully-loaded weight as especially "light." Light for this fussy pocket-carrier is a pound or less. While I really prefer the 9mm round, I'll go with the .380 in a package not much larger than a P32. I've owned both a P11 and a P32 and like kel-Tec products.

I much prefer the way Kel-Tec mates the slide to the frame/grip via a heavy-duty aluminum block; not like Kahr's steel rails imbedded in polymer. Should the P-3AT come with the integral stacked sights like the P32, I'll have no problems with that because the diamond-shaped slider makes the Kel-Tec an excellent point-and-shoot piece, plus keeping the profile from lookig "blocky" in the pocket.

Also having experienced kel-Tec's excellent customer service first-hand, I'd rate that a definite advantage over Kahr.

I guess familiarity breeds confidence; having taken down both Kel-Tec products gives me a confidence in the parts, workmaship, and my own ability to make minor repairs.

[Tall Man]

Blackhawk compensated for my incomplete information regarding the Kel-Tec pistols. Well done.

Kilgor said: They did. Sound out P-3AT.

Nope. There's no reason to brand the new pistol with such a lame and ambiguous moniker when 'P-380' is perfectly serviceable.

TM

[Kilgor]

Then call KelTec and complain. ;)

[tomkatz]

One more option, wait for the rohrbaugh, instead of a downsized larger gun, a whole new design. The thing I like about kel-tec is they design guns that are small and light relative to their calibers, kahr and glock just make the big guns shorter.....tom

[Watch-Six]

I have a Kahr PM9 that I pocket carry with no problem. I once had a Kel Tec P32 and really liked it, except even after three trips to the factory it was not reliable. It had various problems, and rim locks do happen. I will probably try a P3AT when they come out just because they are so darn light weight. That would be nice in very low risk settings. For anything of higher risk I will still go with the PM9 or the light weight commander 45. Watch-Six

[duncan]

The main difference is the weight.

Will you carry the Kahr PM9? For the ballistics, you are going to get into the 400 FPE range with that 9mm mini.

Now with the KT vapor-gun destined to release in the Summer 2003, you'll only get 144 FPE for 380 ACP out of that short barrel. Tests have only show the 380- bullets to deliver 800 to 850 fps out of s short 2-3 inch barrel - like in the P-3AT .

It's no better than the anemic 120 FPE I currently get out of my 71 grain Fiocchi 32 ACP rounds in my KT P-32. 22 FPE is basically identical to me from a decision standpoint.

So if you have a P-32 - keep it - the new 380 does not offer you a real world advantage. For me, they are backup or ooppss guns. But the 9mm Kahr is something you can use as a primary CCW gun.

But for deep and no bones about it I'm always carrying it or the glovebox, the P-32 or the 380 ACP version is hard to beat.

Sold my Kahr E-9 not because it wasn't accurate and reliable but because it was a brick. Weight matters.

If this is your primary CCW gun, at least go 9mm. 40SW better.

[rgc]

however, I believe another company used the name P-380 some time ago for a gun that was not that great. Hence, why kel-tec went with P-3AT. However, with a gun that size, in 380, and at that price they can call it whatever they want . . . . I'm getting one as soon as I can.

[Hawkman]

Tall man,

Davis (a company not known for fine firarms) produced a stinker called the P380. I 'spect Keltec did not want the association, or it might have been copyrighted.

[stevec]

Now with the KT vapor-gun destined to release in the Summer 2003, you'll only get 144 FPE for 380 ACP out of that short barrel. Tests have only show the 380- bullets to deliver 800 to 850 fps out of s short 2-3 inch barrel - like in the P-3AT .

It's no better than the anemic 120 FPE I currently get out of my 71 grain Fiocchi 32 ACP rounds in my KT P-32. 22 FPE is basically identical to me from a decision standpoint.


While I agree its pretty strange that so many people are pushing a gun that nobody has held, shot, or even seen - I think you are missing an important point. The .380 rounds will be up there around 95gr, versus 71gr for your .32. At the same FPE, I'd expect the 95gr bullet to penetrate deeper - one thing that might cut that down is the the slightly lower cross sectional density of the 95gr .380 vs. 71gr .32.

Steve

[Blackhawk]

While I agree its pretty strange that so many people are pushing a gun that nobody has held, shot, or even seen.... Not to mention all the problems they "have" with reliability, quality control, etc.... :rolleyes:

[Johnny Guest]

- - -Concerning the P3AT applies even more strongly to the ecstatic raves some are giving the Rohrbaugh. Lotsa people waxing enthuriastic about THAT little item, proclaiming it the greatest gift to concealed carry since - - -Since what? I dunno.

One thing about it--Kel Tec CNC has been in production with various items for several years. Some teething problems, yes, but they have sold a LOT of working guns, many to otherwise unarmed persons, who just plain carry 'em and don't frequent the firearms boards.

Has Rohrbaugh ever produced ANY pocket pistol, or ANY design?

No criticism of the product, but no sweeping endorsement, either, until I get hold of one to examine and shoot and such . . .:rolleyes:

Best,
Johnny

[Blackhawk]

It sure does apply more strongly to Rohrbaugh, Johnny! :D

Kel-Tec CNC presumably made other things before it started making guns, but Rohrbaugh is a brand new company that's never made anything.

I'm totally convinced that KT can pull off the P-3AT, but I'm only optimistic that Rohrbaugh can pull off its design. But the designs of both are quite meritorious, and that's the reason for my enthusiasm, especially for the Rohrbaugh.

With a 2.7" barrel, the Rohrbaugh is going to be lucky to get standard ammo up to 300 FPE, so it will be about as much better than a .380 as a .380 is over a .32. It will also have, IMO, a lot of flash and noise. With a locked breech design, I'm positive that the gun will work, but I don't have a good idea how durable it will be or whether its high price will be acceptable to the market. Its weight is less than a KT P-11, and being considerably smaller, it might be a handful to shoot. We'll just have to wait and see.

[22luvr]

Concerning the Rohrbagh: I'll probably grow old and die before I see a production model of one of those!

Kel-Tec? Not only do I think the P-3AT will be in great demand and wildly popular but also very reliable, once the roll-out bugs are worked out.

Not only that, but I'll make a prediction that Kel-Tec will eventually make the smallest, lightest, and most affordable 9mm pistol, based on the P32 platform.

If it's going to be smaller, lighter, and affordable, Kel-Tec will build'em.

[Gusgus]

Rohrbaugh, eh? Greatest thing since sliced bread, eh? Anyone remember Talon? A new American gun company, that came on the market a couple years ago with a polymer 9mm & .380 that where to revolutionize CCW? No? Don't remember them? You want to know why? Because their guns in real life, didn't live up to the hype, and they went belly up. Rohrbaugh has a lot of proving to do, before they become the god of CCW.

Personally, I'll probably add a P-3AT to my P-32. At least Kel-Tec has a proven track record, and great customer service.

[NJ3]

Not only that, but I'll make a prediction that Kel-Tec will eventually make the smallest, lightest, and most affordable 9mm pistol, based on the P32 platform.

I'm sure Kel-Tec will too, after they sell enough P-3AT's. :neener:

[Russ]

Kilgor,

That was good. I guess I'm a little dense but now that you pointed that little gem out, I like it! Now I will be able to remember it easily.

Of the guns you mention, the PM9 is going to be the best quality and alot more expensive than your other choices. Kahr's are neat litttle guns. I have an MK40 and it is great and extremely accurate.

I wonder how long it will take Kel-Tec to get the P-3AT into wide distribution?

[Chan Bates]

I have heard about this gun in its currently described configuration for about two years. They are not claiming to make any other model. They have shown it at two shot shows, I believe, and this if they show up will be their third.

Why isn't this gun in production?

May I hazard a guess?

It doesn't work, or at least it doesn't do what they hoped it would.

Maybe it is too tough to shoot a lightweight, blowback, short
barreled powerhouse.

Maybe it isn't robust enough to hold up to the battering it generates.

Maybe the mechanical balance (feed-eject-feed) is almost impossible to achieve for reliability (something lightweight Kel-Tecs initially had to overcome).

Maybe it will have to be too expensive, especially considering it may have other problems.

Maybe it's all of the above and more, but the availability date seems to keep slipping, and when that runs into years instead of months, it's not much of a strecth to predict severe problems, or that it may never reach the market.

In the mean time, one of my trusty KT P-40's w/10+1 capacity and a backup hi-cap mag disappears in my Thunderwear and I feel very well armed. I don't see the need for the Rohrbagh, Kahr 9MM or a P-3AT, for me.

CB3

[smooth operator]

It depends on when you want to make your purchase. The KT is not currently available. I don't feel you can compare what's available to something that is not currently available. It's like comparing apples & walnuts. Once the KT is in production there will most likely be a huge demand that will overwelm availabilty-that is the price will go up. Around here when the p-32 was 1st introduced it sold at the MSRP. Once there were enough guns in the market place the price settled down. Like the p-32 there will be some bugs to be worked out. KT will stand behind the product, but it may take some time to get the bugs worked out. I'll probably wind up buying one to compliment my p-11 & p-32, but I'm not getting excited just yet for the reasons I mentioned.

Jerry

[cratz2]

I think you're torn between the desire to have something that easily fits in your pocket and something that a 90% or better one shot stop record. ;)

They're not really comparable guns. The P32 is tiny as should be the new 380. The P32 hardly kicks, if a 6 year old girl is capable of pulling the trigger, she can handle the recoil. Maybe not accurately but still. I doun't think my daughter would want any part of the recoil on the Kahr. Plus it and the P11 are just too big for most people's pockets, not only because of size but because of weight with the Kahr.

I don't wear jeans. I mostly wear Dockers type casual pants or dress pants. Without a belt, the Kahr I tried (the smallest all metal 9mm) was way too heavy to keep in the pocket so I would have to carry it IWB. If I'm going to carry something IWB, it's going to be a 1911 of some design, or if I embraced poly guns more, at least a Glock 36.

I don't know, the Kahw guns are very well made and shoot very nicely, I just personally feel they fill a niche that doesn't need to be filled. Too heavy for a pocket gun, to small to require a belt holster. I'll admit I've never tried the half polymer Kahrs but can't help but feel I would find the same faults to a lesser extent.

[22luvr]

I also wear mostly pleated Docker-style pants. I carry no other way than in the right-front pocket. I also tried the Kahrs, especially the MK9 (which is a beautiful piece) but with it's almost 24 oz empty weight, it felt like a boat anchor in my pocket.

To reiterate: the sliding, slipping anticipated rollout of the Rohrbaugh does not inspire confidence, not to mention the suggested price! You bet I'd like the ballistics of a 9mm in my right front pocket but there isn't one yet that I can carry there with the degree of comfort and concealability that I insist on.

If I want to tote some power, it's my Smith 340 SC with RBCD TFSP's (1,800 FPS, 500+ lbs energy) but there are places I go where I don't even trust the concealability of my J-frame.

I will put my money on a Kel-Tec. I've owned both the P11 and the P32. Kel-Tec makes a practical workman-like self-defense gun that is generally reliable, affordable, easy to work on, and carries a lifetime warranty. My money is definitely on the P-3AT; I think Kel-Tec has done their homework and paid the price. They are one of the fastest-growing firearms companies in America.......developing both useful and affordable pistols and rifles.

[scoop]

kel tec k40 and the little k-32 are real pos.the karh has them beat on quality.

[yzguy]

kel tec k40 and the little k-32 are real pos.the karh has them beat on quality

you can tell he knows exactly what he is talking about from direct experience by the incorrect names....

(BTW its' the P-40, P-11, P-32, and P-3AT)

Have you ever held/shot/owned any of these??

[smooth operator]

Cost is also a factor, not just the initial price. You have to consider what happens if you ever need to use it in a self defense situation. The first thing the LEO's will do is arrest you & impound the gun. After you clear yourself at the station, they will keep your gun for who knows how long. That is the reason I don't carry expensive guns. All my guns work & are reliable & if they are impounded I'm not out alot of money.
Jerry

[Blackhawk]

Chan,

I think the Rohrbaugh example was first shown at SHOT Show 2002, so this would be the second show, and one year in the buzz.

Last year, they said summer for release, then October, and for the past few months, they've been waiting for the BATF to sign off on production. Last Fall, they said it would debut at the SHOT Show next week, so it won't be much longer to wait to see if they pull it off. They have a booth, at least.

It's not a blowback design. It's a locked breech design that's supposed to kick like a PPK .380. We'll see on that too.

Nothing on the horizon is going to replace my P-11 or P-32, but examples of both the P-3AT and the Rohrbaugh are destined to join them when they show up.... :D

[Badger Arms]

Now with the KT vapor-gun destined to release in the Summer 2003, you'll only get 144 FPE for 380 ACP out of that short barrel. Tests have only show the 380- bullets to deliver 800 to 850 fps out of s short 2-3 inch barrel - like in the P-3AT .You know, it amazes me how people will spout off some piece of unsupported crap and think that everybody will accept it as fact. In reality, the 380 is significantly more powerful than is claimed above and the 32 significantly less powerful.

Best energy for .32 is Fiocci 73gr at 877fps for 125fpe
Best energy for 380 is Corbon 90gr at 963fps for 185fpe
That's about 50% greater energy from a 1/8" shorter barrel than we will have in the P3AT.

NAA 380 Ballistics (http://www.naaminis.com/vel38new.html)
NAA 32 ACP Ballistics (http://www.naaminis.com/vel32new.html)
NAA Energy Conversions (http://www.naaminis.com/energy.html)

[Kilgor]

Here's another few data points of .380acp chrono data.

http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IVG10.html

This one includes the 102 grain golden saber and also compares a short barrel (AMT Backup) and a full size barrel (Makarov).

They all produce roughly the same amount of energy from a short barrel in .380 from what I am reading. I want penetration first, then expansion. I worry that the Corbon will not penetrate enough. Since energy is roughly the same in all loads it will depend on how the bullet is constructed as to whether it will open too fast. I guess I will have to do some expansion and penetration tests myself.

Kilgor

[JohnBT]

Anybody know the current MSRP on the P-32? I've read that the P-3AT will list for $5 more and I'm Number One on the waiting list at the gun store. Just curious, because I'm getting one.

I have a P-32 in the 12xxx range, so I figure I've gotten my money's worth out of it. Two or three years times $.40 a day equals more than I have in it. Now, if I figure how much it cost me per hour of carry time...I give up, what is it...$.02 an hour?

I'll buy the Rohrbaugh when it gets here and try it too. More hearsay...I've read that a big part of the delay is due to the demand created by pre-release hoopla - like this thread. They needed to line up a whole bunch o' bucks to tool up to make it in quantity.

John

[Blackhawk]

I'll buy the Rohrbaugh when it gets here and try it too. More hearsay...I've read that a big part of the delay is due to the demand created by pre-release hoopla - like this thread. They needed to line up a whole bunch o' bucks to tool up to make it in quantity.Don't think so, John.

They had their CNC machines installed in about October, but last I heard before the SHOT Show, the BATF still had not approved their manufacturing production guns. So, Rohrbaugh is sitting there with all their machines set up, ready, and proven and their staff ready to turn them on and make parts, but they can't legally do that until the BATF issues the needed paperwork.

I have to keep reminding myself that even burrocrats can have reasonable excuses for failing to do their jobs. In the BATF's case, they've just been reorganized, they have a huge backpack from NOT doing a "journeyman" job under their mandate for a long while, and especially after 9/11. IOW, the BATF just may be too busy to bother with a startup gun manufacturer.

Political influence would help Rohrbaugh, but their senators are ******* and Chuckie Schumer.... :rolleyes:

[alamo]

Someone talked to the Rohrbaugh people at the Shot Show & they said it would be May before they start shipping.

[Zander]

Why didn't Kel-Tec maintain identification protocol and name its new pistol the P380?For some time, Kel-Tec has been exporting P-11s in .380 caliber to foreign markets. Maybe they didn't want the attendant confusion...

[QKRTHNU]

In comparing the 9s don't forget that the P-11 while being only marginally bigger and weighing ~ the same as the PM9 & new Rohrbaugh R-9 manages to hold 10+1 from the factory and has cheap readily available 12,15&17rd hicaps.

My vote for the 9 is the P-11.

And I deffinately want a P-3AT.

[Blackhawk]

alamo wrote:Someone talked to the Rohrbaugh people at the Shot Show & they said it would be May before they start shipping.

I believe that was predicated on their BATF "number" being issued forthwith. However, they've expected "the number" since November or so. :(

[JohnBT]

Blackhawk - Wasn't it your name that was mentioned somewhere in the pre-production publicity thread? Maybe not.

They did go out and buy some nice equipment last year, didn't they? Let's see, they announce a summer rollout and don't get the CNC stuff set up until October. Lack of adequate timely financing maybe? I dunno.

John...just following the rumors as best I can.

[Blackhawk]

Blackhawk - Wasn't it your name that was mentioned somewhere in the pre-production publicity thread? Jeff mentioned that it came up among those at the Rohrbaugh booth at the SHOT Show on his Day one report on his website: http://www.shotshowreports.com

It's certainly no secret that after finding out about the gun from Jeff's report last year, I've been an enthusiastic potential "early adopter" as evidenced by the many posts I've made about the guns. I've also investigated, asked questions, talked to the folks at Rohrbaugh, and gotten my pennies ready to buy one.

I'm not, however, affiliated in any way with the company even though I wish them great success and firmly believe that their R-9 is going to fill a niche among pocket pistols -- namely a 9mm Mighty Mouse gun the size of a P-32. I don't see how they can go wrong with their locked breech design, and I want one -- or more! :D

[another okie]

I looked at a P9 and an MP9 today at the gun show. The little gun was almost $600, the P9 was around $450 (different dealers). The little gun is indeed little, but not as light as you might think. I carry a Taurus titanium snubbie for pocket carry, and the MP9 is heaver and blockier, though it is definitely thinner and shorter. I think the shape of the revolver conceals more naturally. I would like to have both those Kahrs, but I can give Glock a little more time to produce a slim 9mm.