Rat shot question.


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mcmurry
March 29, 2011, 08:56 PM
In a short barreled .22 revolver(2 inches), how far will rat shot travel? The package says 500 yards, but I was told that was in a rifle. I live out of town but in a housing area. Besides across the street, I also have houses behind me and approximately within 100 yards. Most people let their dogs run loose. They come into my yard and attack my dog, who is on a dog trolley. I have tried a pellet rifle, but it is so under powered that it doesn't even really hurt the dogs. I have used rat shot in my S&W revolver, but I'm really leery. Whats the general consensus here?

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ObsidianOne
March 29, 2011, 09:03 PM
I see a lot of legal issues about blasting other peoples mutts. I'd say buy a pressure washer or get some bear mace to discourage them. Maybe even invest in a high powered electric or gas powered airsoft rifle (not the cheap Wal-Mart/Big 5 crap) if you insist on using them for target practice.
Do you not have a fence?

txhoghunter
March 29, 2011, 09:17 PM
I see too many legal ramifications to consider shooting someone else's dog unless it is attacking you. If it is killing your dog, you need some CCI stingers to actually kill the attacking dog and not rat shot (that chances hurting your own dog).

I would suggest a fence, or something less lethal than rat shot (and even less than a pellet gun) to keep those dogs away. FWIW, dogs are very sensitive to pepper spray

chevyman097
March 29, 2011, 09:26 PM
Actually the laws depend on where you live. He may very well be in his rights.

Here in my city you are very well in your rights to shoot an animal if it is to protect your animals/family.

We have had a very bad issue with vicious dogs running wild too. Our neighbors dog was killed by anothers down the street. Well I called the cops because the neighbor was away(returned as the cops were here). It was very grusome, the dog basically just wanted to shred the other one to pieces.

Well while the leo was doing the report and what not I was talking to him and asked this question(explained to him i was afraid to use my firearm because I wasnt sure of the law). He told me I was very well in my right to use deadly force against the animal next time if it was being aggressive and dangerous to us and our animals. I think this also had to do with the fact that the city has a leash law.

The dogs owners received a citation for some thing I was unable to get that out of the officer.

Now like I said this was out of the mouth of an officer so I cant say I have this in writing. I would check with your local LEOs. And maybe I should double check with the police chief too....just thought of that. I am just taking a patrol officers word.

Skyshot
March 29, 2011, 09:27 PM
get youself a good sling shot. Ammo is cheap! and I guarantee the dogs won't forget it:evil:

txhoghunter
March 29, 2011, 09:32 PM
Actually the laws depend on where you live. He may very well be in his rights.

I am actually more concerned with a ricochet or stray round hitting someone's house, or even worse someone, than with the legal problems of killing the dog.

And I agree with the slingshot idea

matrem
March 29, 2011, 09:47 PM
My somewhat limited tests with "rat shot" in .22lr proved to me that the backside of an aluminum can may not be in danger at distances of more than a few feet.
I'm not at all for injuring other peoples' pets, unless there is absolutely no other option.

isc
March 29, 2011, 09:54 PM
Get a better pellet rifle. I have a 1000FPS pellet gun that will penetrate both sides of a steel can at 25 M It will definitely make an impression on a feral dog. I had a problem with my nieghbor's pittbull getting into my yard and killing my chickens. It stopped when I lit him up in the hind quarters with a pellet from my rifle. I don't know whether that was from the dog learning a lesson through negative reinforcement or his owner keeping him chained up to avoid him getting another minor but probaly painful wound. Whatever the cause, I didn't lose another chicken or have to worry about my tethered dog getting attacked again (I lost one like that while I was at work a couple years earlier)

Rat shot comes in a plastic shell, and a pistol may not be enough to cut that shell and release the shot. I've used rat shot from a .22 rifle on feral cats that were tearing up my flex duct under my house. At 20 ft it just scared the cats.

The pellets did a good job on them, and so did CBs out of a .22 revolver.

I've probably upset a few animal lovers by being as frank as I have been

I'd bet $100 that rat shot wouldn't even hit an object 100 yds away much less hurt it.

txhoghunter
March 29, 2011, 09:59 PM
It stopped when I lit him up in the hind quarters with a pellet from my rifle

Well that dog should consider himself lucky...the last pitbull I ran into got his negative reinforcement from a 9mm....no need for second lessons.

However, that is a completely different scenario and the dog attacked me. I don't recommend you use lethal force on the dog unless it attacks you or is seriously injuring your dog.

matrem
March 29, 2011, 10:05 PM
I'd bet $100 that rat shot wouldn't even hit an object 100 yds away much less hurt it.
Neither the CCI ( "plastic shell") or the crimped brass ones will penetrate the front side of an aluminum can at much more than 5 yards,
If you have much of a wind in your face, I'm doubting any pellets would even make it 100yards?

Remo223
March 29, 2011, 10:08 PM
A grown man could end up in jail shooting the neighbor's dog with a bb gun.

BackCountry
March 29, 2011, 10:34 PM
The covenants in my neighborhood specifically state that any stray dogs may be shot. Never had to act on it. I moved from the last place I lived in years ago partly because the Sheriff asked me to stop using my 7 mm STW for shooting dogs as too many homes had been built in the area and he was afraid of a stray round or ricochet hitting a home. Prior to things beginning to get built out, the neighboring rancher would give me 1/2 a cow every year for helping him control the stray dogs.

I guess it all depends on where you live. If you have close neighbors and not a good shooting lane or can't use a rifle I would go with the sling shot and marbles.

Starter52
March 29, 2011, 10:50 PM
+1 to matrem. We used to hunt bugs with .22 shotshells when I was a kid. The tiny #12 shot is like dust in the wind. It won't injure a grasshopper much beyond 15 feet.

Rifling in a barrel ruins the pattern. In my experience the shot pattern is better from a short barrel handgun than from a rifle.

A slingshot sounds like a good idea. Stale gum balls at close range will sting without much injury.

chevyman097
March 29, 2011, 10:50 PM
Sounds like heck of a deal Backcountry and I bet he much appreciated it. lol

People really dont realize sometime how vicious a stray dog can be at first glance. Just because some one feeds it doesnt mean its tame. They really are a menace and can be very dangerous depending on the circumstances. A pack of dogs can ruin a calf easily. Just one can become angry for no reason and do very serious damage, even lethal, to a adult and even worse to a child. Really irresponsible people are to blame, and its very sad for the animal it turns out this way.

One must remember, just because these dogs are loose does not mean they are simply a pet off a leash. They do and can reproduce, survive, and become feral.

But keeping it on topic. As others said, caliber choice, safe shooting lanes, and the limitation of the law are most important.

While a sling shot or pellet gun could be very effective against one animal, I would be very Leary of going up against more than one. They arent always alone. I have witnessed a pack of 3 or more attack a rabbit cage to get to them. I dare not go at those with a sling shot.

CZguy
March 29, 2011, 11:24 PM
While a sling shot or pellet gun could be very effective against one animal, I would be very Leary of going up against more than one. They arent always alone. I have witnessed a pack of 3 or more attack a rabbit cage to get to them. I dare not go at those with a sling shot.

I wouldn't either now.......but when I was ten or twelve years old I was good with a sling shot.

Snowdog
March 29, 2011, 11:34 PM
Many years ago, I had a German shepherd that got out of my fenced-in back yard and was missing for the better part of two days, despite the efforts of the family to find him.
He came back one his own, but we noticed we all would choke and gag when we got too close to him. Obviously, someone had sprayed him with pepper spray.
A good wash was in order before we could allow him in the house.
It also prompted me to install an electric wire at the base of the fence to prevent future break-out attempts.

Pepper spray serves a couple functions: it drives the dog away (that now hopefully associates pain with your yard/dog) and it also passes the message along to the owner that the dog was causing enough of a problem with neighbors to be sprayed.

Certainly I wouldn't suggest we all start zapping every unleashed dog in view with pepper spray, but it's an excellent option for a pesky dog intruding on one's property and threatening a family pet.

Jeff F
March 29, 2011, 11:36 PM
I would pursue other options then going right to a firearm. That said. If I had to use a sidearm it would not be loaded with rat shot. If you need to shoot a dog you should try and put it down as fast and humanly as possible. Last thing you want is a wounded dog making it back to his home and dying in a pool of blood on the porch.

cskny
March 29, 2011, 11:55 PM
A grown man could end up in jail shooting the neighbor's dog with a bb gun.


+1. Happened locally here. Neighbor shot medium dog with a pellet gun. Fluke shot I guess, but the dog died. He was prosecuted.

suemarkp
March 30, 2011, 12:11 AM
Small shot slows down very quickly. I think most skeet ranges consider 300 yds safe for shot 7.5 or smaller. For that small #12 shot, it won't take long at all before it is nothing. Even with a larger caliber gun using the CCI shotshells with #9 shot, I think it is about done by 100yds (less than 400 ft/sec and a lot of drop). Using a handgun, it will be even slower than these numbers.

The larger caliber #9 shells make get the dogs attention. Could blind them though it you hit their eyes. Probably good for a shot in the butt at 10 to 20 yds. Drawback with these is the shot pattern spreads quickly. Too close and it will penetrate, but shallowly. At mid range, only a few pellets will hit but they should get the message. Too far, and it won't penetrate or may not even hit them.

If you want to put them down, you could try 38 to 45 round ball loads. Either of these could maybe penetrate a house at 100 yds (will be around 500-600 fps at that range). Would definitely leave a mark...

Remo223
March 30, 2011, 12:14 AM
"+1. Happened locally here. Neighbor shot medium dog with a pellet gun. Fluke shot I guess, but the dog died. He was prosecuted."


doesn't really matter if the dog dies or not. The animal rights quacks will call it cruelty to animals and demand you go to jail. There are laws regarding cruelty to animals and they will use them if someone complains loud enough.

PedalBiker
March 30, 2011, 12:15 AM
Rat shot from a .22 is great for wasps, mice and sparrows at close range and not much else. I doubt even rats are in much danger unless you're really close.

I grew up in rural MI. The law there was totally jacked up. You could legally shoot a dog that disturbed your chickens enough to cause them to stop laying eggs (it doesn't take squat to disturb chickens), but not one that was chasing your terrified children into the house (in your own front yard). We came home from church one day and found our cats literally spread out all over the front yard, eviscerated. The cops wouldn't do squat since they were "barn" cats and had no "resale value". Soon after we got some chickens and suddenly the cops were our best friends. So, chickens rated higher than kids - wow - that just made us kids feel great, you know?

I agree with the pepper spray. Having a noxious dog should give them a clue.

I have to say, my respect for the law dropped several notches when a pack of dogs chased my siblings and myself into the hose and left us afraid to leave the house for weeks and the cops didn't give a crap basically because we hadn't been bitten, maimed or killed.

Tomcat47
March 30, 2011, 12:15 AM
This is a sugestion for you. Liquid Fence! It is available at Home Depot and the like and will give some decent results.

My grandfather used to keep them off the porch and out of the garden with this or similar product.

I agree as stated ther are too many legal issues with popping one of them with rat shot! I would inform the owner and inform the dog catcher that they are attacking your animals. They will cite the owner of the rampant animals and probably inform you that if they are attacking your tied up dog to skip the rat shot and terminate the intruder!

Talk to them and I would do it soon! it will give you the upper hand in a bad situation. If you wound them with Rat shot and they make it home you could be responsible for medical bills and charged with animal cruelty even though you are the responsible owner.

Good Luck!

txhoghunter
March 30, 2011, 12:18 AM
Shooting a pellet gun or other related type weapon (slingshot) at a dog can bring on a cruelty against animal charge because people will say that you did not feel that the animal was enough of a threat to deserve lethal force, and you therefore shot it for "fun". No, it might not be the truth, and you might have had the best intentions by trying to just scare off the animal, but that is the world we live in....

If you use pepper spray, it shows that the dog was close to you, and that it was not a "for fun" type of thing.

Remo223
March 30, 2011, 12:19 AM
Small shot slows down very quickly. I think most skeet ranges consider 300 yds safe for shot 7.5 or smaller. For that small #12 shot, it won't take long at all before it is nothing. Even with a larger caliber gun using the CCI shotshells with #9 shot, I think it is about done by 100yds (less than 400 ft/sec and a lot of drop). Using a handgun, it will be even slower than these numbers.

The larger caliber #9 shells make get the dogs attention. Could blind them though it you hit their eyes. Probably good for a shot in the butt at 10 to 20 yds. Drawback with these is the shot pattern spreads quickly. Too close and it will penetrate, but shallowly. At mid range, only a few pellets will hit but they should get the message. Too far, and it won't penetrate or may not even hit them.

If you want to put them down, you could try 38 to 45 round ball loads. Either of these could maybe penetrate a house at 100 yds (will be around 500-600 fps at that range). Would definitely leave a mark...
I doubt 7.5 shot could even do harm at 100 yards.

B yond
March 30, 2011, 12:30 AM
You need a new pellet gun sir.

Or, if you feel like being nice, a super soaker of urine. Dogs don't like being peed on. Go figure.

rat shot will not give you the results you're looking for here beyond a few yards.

Giterboosted
March 30, 2011, 12:41 AM
Fwiw I worked at home depot and tried the liquid fence type stuff and it doesn't work, you may as well urinate on your property line for the price per effectiveness of that junk, sorry I didn't have much to contribute, just trying to offer a professional opinion

B yond
March 30, 2011, 12:43 AM
Just to reiterate....


dogs hate being peed on.

Gordon_Freeman
March 30, 2011, 12:52 AM
I got shot with rat shot from a .22 rifle when I was 13 years old. The kid shot me in the hip from 10 feet away. Some of the pellets penetrated pretty deep. I still have some in me now. Most of them could be scraped out with a knife. This did require a hospital visit with x-ray. I had to stay in bed for 2 weeks with a painful wound and apply peroxide. You should not underestimate rat shot.
I am a dog owner and I would never even consider leaving my dogs outside on a cable or chain unsupervised.

B yond
March 30, 2011, 12:56 AM
You have to remember dogs usually have thicker fur than people do, and this is a 2" barrel we're talking about. I once tried rat shot out of a 5" s&w 22A against wet sand at about 5 feet and had less than 1/8th inch penetration, if even that much.

I wouldn't expect much at any kind of distance from a 2" barrel.

chevyman097
March 30, 2011, 01:01 AM
Shooting a pellet gun or other related type weapon (slingshot) at a dog can bring on a cruelty against animal charge because people will say that you did not feel that the animal was enough of a threat to deserve lethal force, and you therefore shot it for "fun". No, it might not be the truth, and you might have had the best intentions by trying to just scare off the animal, but that is the world we live in....

If you use pepper spray, it shows that the dog was close to you, and that it was not a "for fun" type of thing.

At the same time, using a handgun against a dog can be seen as the dog being a serious threat. The dog was making you fear for your life, and/or could have been rabid, or wild. It was close range and had to be taken down for safety of the family/self. A clean kill is more humane than anything when YOUR LIFE is the one in danger.(I dont intend that to sound odd, it includes any wildlife) We are not the top of the food chain.

Again I dont suggest using low power "deterrents", know the laws. Do what you need to. Protect your family, feral animals are not a joke, check the news.

B yond
March 30, 2011, 01:07 AM
We are not the top of the food chain.

What is?

Seriously, what animal can't man deal with? I have yet to see sharks with lasers or grizzlys with nuclear weapons...

I met an elderly woman who fought a mountain lion off of her husband with a ball point pen. Our ability to use tools put us at the top of the food chain thousands of years ago.

chevyman097
March 30, 2011, 01:17 AM
nvm

B yond
March 30, 2011, 03:33 AM
Wasn't trying to ruffle your feathers chevy. Wasn't trying to get off topic either. My point was/is that man is at the top of the food chain because of our ability to use tools to control (and to kill) other species.

OP didn't sound afraid for his safety in the original post. He wants a way to deter a neighbor's dog, not necessarily to kill it. It comes down to the right tool for the job.

In this case, I don't think rat shot is the right tool for the job, although the report of the shot might be effective.

CZguy
March 30, 2011, 07:10 AM
Just to reiterate....


dogs hate being peed on.


Just out of curousity.............dosn't everyone and everything hate getting peed on?

Screendmon
March 30, 2011, 09:05 AM
Shooting dogs is not very "High road"

Old Shooter
March 30, 2011, 09:08 AM
If you are in a housing area and houses are within 100 yards of you, you may have some problems with the neighbors not appreciating your popping their dogs with a pistol, rat shot or not. Are their any homeowner association rules or regulations? How about laws in your area regarding discharge of a firearm in proximity of occupied swellings?

Murphy says that as soon as you pop one shot a neighbor will be outside weeding her garden and wil hear/see you shoot her pet poodle. All the other neighbors let their dogs run free? Sounds like a dog friendly area and relations with the neighbors may go downhill quickly.

If you don't feel comfortable letting your dog loose to run with them I would go for the bear spray before any pistol or pellet gun attacks. If YOU or your family feel threatened then I wouldn't waste my time with rat shot, it would be a call to the police to record a complaint and then hollow points in a 22 rifle.

KevininPa
March 30, 2011, 09:28 AM
......paintballs sting.

I know that owners of dogs who bring their dogs in at night hate it when their furry buddies eat tasty, meaty morsels that have a laxative in them. Let's not ask how I know this, but I will say that that dog is always chained now.;)

"Just out of curousity.............dosn't everyone and everything hate getting peed on?"

Since this is the High Road, I will keep my warped mind in check. Oh c'mon! A lot of us thought it, I'm just brave enough to comment on it! :eek::D

BackCountry
March 30, 2011, 09:44 AM
Paintballs do work well. The owner also gets the picture that their loose dog has been causing problems. Pepper spray works well also but you have to get closer to the dog to use it.

HGUNHNTR
March 30, 2011, 09:49 AM
^ No you don't need a pellet gun. You need to talk to the neighbors, and if that doesn't work talk to animal control. You have no business shooting someone's dog regardless of whether they are on your property or not.

KevininPa
March 30, 2011, 10:35 AM
How about if you don't know the owner? I had one that I didn't know. Problem with living in a rural area is that for some reason a lot of people think that the "country" is where everyone can just let their dogs and cats roam free. One morning I went out my back door with with my cup of coffee and got growled at by a Rotty. First time I ever saw the dog. And since I always walk my dogs, I have a pretty good idea who owns what in the area. Went back in to get a shotgun, came out and it was gone. Never saw it again. Dogs almost never frighten me. That was the second time in my life that I got rattled by a large dog. That's why a red paintball, as close to blood colored as possible to let the unknown owner what could happen when critters run free. BTW, the first dog that scared me was a chow that some casual acquaintances owned. Stuck it's head in my crotch and growled.:eek:

chevyman097
March 30, 2011, 10:50 AM
SCreenman

Shooting dogs is not very "High road"

Please explain why? If the dog is a threat to you and your family. Have you not seen the news lately? Dogs can be very deadly. Every few months around my parts there is something in the news where a child or an elderly has been mauled by a dog.

mustang_steve
March 30, 2011, 10:50 AM
There is no such thing as a less-lethal round for a handgun...all rounds will kill if used in a certain manner.

That said, ammo is an accessory to the weapon class, allowing it to be tailored to the task. Ratshot is a low mass round meant for killing very small critters at near PB range with minimal over-penetration issues. Use it only in those conditions.

If you have to shoot to shoo, use an airsoft.

HGUNHNTR
March 30, 2011, 11:06 AM
Quote:
Shooting dogs is not very "High road"

Please explain why?

OK. If the OP was truly concerned for his life the thread would not have included the words "rat shot". It looks like he is looking for a way to deter the dogs, not keep them from consuming his family.

KevininPA--Thats what animal control is for. You have no business destroying someone else's property.

skidder
March 30, 2011, 11:12 AM
I saw these ultra-sonic devices you point at the dogs or cats and it suppose to give them doggy headache.

sargas23
March 30, 2011, 11:38 AM
I live in an urban area and have to walk about 10 blocks to the bus stop. On more than one occasion, I have been threatened by large loose dogs. I considered deadly defenses, but opted instead to start carrying my stun gun in my hand. There is something about that electrical discharge that freaks out dogs (and humans) and so far it has worked really well.

I wouldn't want to get so close to a feral dog to actually have to make contact with a stun gun, but what about something similar like a cattle prod?

clamman
March 30, 2011, 12:03 PM
I used to have problems with a dog. After I fed it ground beef with the hottest hot sauce on earth, the dog was no longer a problem. BTW I used "rat" shot on barn rats when I was a kid, and had pretty good luck at very close range. Now in my older days, I prefer 22 CB longs with a scoped Remington 511

monkyboy1975
March 30, 2011, 12:17 PM
I think this would be a better option than ratshot. Even a near miss would encourage puppy to leave.
http://www.pepperammo.com/paintball-pepperammo.php

chevyman097
March 30, 2011, 12:21 PM
HG

Quote:
Quote:
Shooting dogs is not very "High road"

Please explain why?
OK. If the OP was truly concerned for his life the thread would not have included the words "rat shot". It looks like he is looking for a way to deter the dogs, not keep them from consuming his family.

KevininPA--Thats what animal control is for. You have no business destroying someone else's property.

OK I can see your concern there. But not every town has animal control. Mine does not. Besides when you and/or your animals are in danger calling animal control is kinda like calling the cops when you are being robbed. The OP did state his dog was attacked. I can see where rat shot could be a concern. I personally wouldnt suggest it as some have. If your life, family, or animals are in grave danger I would suggest stopping the threat humainly and quick. Not detering it...personally as suggested before.

txhoghunter
March 30, 2011, 12:24 PM
KevininPA--Thats what animal control is for. You have no business destroying someone else's property.

When seconds count, animal control is only minutes away ;) (but sometimes it can be hours...)

Bud Tugly
March 30, 2011, 01:12 PM
Back when I lived in the country I used to bicycle a lot on back country roads. Many people had loose dogs in their yards that would come running out and chase me. I got to carrying a squirt gun filled with ammonia solution.

A squirt from that gun would stop them in their tracks but do no permanent harm. I imagine pepper spray would have worked very well, too.

Discharging any firearm or even a pellet gun at any animal is likely to get you in trouble most places unless you can prove your life was in danger.

RimfireChris
March 30, 2011, 01:41 PM
For the OP, whatever course you decide on, before you do anything else, try and contact the owners, and if they're not receptive, LE/animal control. Start the paper trail NOW, it will help your case should you have to do anything drastic.

And for everone saying no one has the the right to shoot someone else's dog, come home to a beloved family pet dying because it's guts have been ripped out and let us know if you feel the same. :fire:

Owen Sparks
March 30, 2011, 01:46 PM
Back to the original question: The manufacturers have to take into account the farthest possible distance that their product could pose a risk. They presume you are firing it from an extra long barrel, held at the optimum angle of elivation with a high wind at your back from the top of a mountain. Then they add in another 100 yards are so of buffer just to make sure.

As to dogs, I really would not use rat shot. Just too much chance that one pellet might hit an eye.

mcmurry
March 30, 2011, 06:40 PM
Wow! A lot more responses than I anticipated! Ok, first I don't live in town. In town has a leash law, the county doesn't. I do have a BB gun, but the dogs ignore it-too weak, not CO2 powered. I have a Beeman Pellet rifle, but was looking for something a little more painful. I'm not trying to kill the dog. I have a paint ball gun, but it has no sights and I'm not very good at point shooting. I never could hit anything with a slingshot. Never knew how to aim it! Ten years ago when we got the dog, a fence for the back yard started at $17,000, way more than I had/have. Actually, a stray dog is any dog that leaves the owners property. I'm sure it has an owner somewhere, but it's not me. I take great pains to keep my yard free from fleas and ticks. I don't like other peoples dogs coming into my yard, possibly spreading fleas and ticks, eating my dog's food(did I mention my dog is a wuss and won't fight for his own food?), pooping in my yard WITH THE OWNER STANDING ON HIS PORCH AND WATCHING!!! Oh, and although in some areas of my county there is packs of feral stray dogs attacking people's pets, I'm only 3 miles outta town, so I guess they don't come this close in town. I was always taught that your dog is your responsibilty! Keep it in your own yard.

KevininPa
March 30, 2011, 06:49 PM
.........cheap red dot for the paintball gun. That is if they mount the same. I wouldn't know about the newer ones, I still have an ancient Splatmaster.:o

txhoghunter
March 30, 2011, 06:51 PM
If it is a feral dog and attacks your dog, kill it. Plain and simple

googol
March 30, 2011, 07:01 PM
Rat shot out of a short-barrel revolver will do fine if you're up close. Unless you hit the dog in the eyes, it shouldn't do terrible damage. Each piece of "shot" is really more like a lead flake. If you are more than a few yards away, those flakes probably won't penetrate the fur of the average dog.

A decent pellet gun with a round- or flat-tip pellet would probably work better. You can stand at a distance and take a well-aimed shot. But be careful. I once killed a dog in similar circumstances when I shot it in the ribs. I still regret that mistake.

skidder
March 30, 2011, 08:52 PM
When we were kids my brother popped a poodle belonging to the town judge (10 pump crossman), while the judge was looking out the window. He lost his angel eyes reputation with my parents (got a chuckle out of the blacksheep):D. My brother almost killed the dog and had to pay 3 months of paper route money for the vett bills.

Moral.... It's "ok" if the dog doesn't belong to the Mayor or Judge.:D

Having that cheap daisy, saved the Heineken of the blacksheep.

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