10mm


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RonGoode
January 8, 2004, 11:11 PM
Can someone educate me about 10mms?
I tend to favor .45s but I'm thinking about moving "up" and thought that might be the next rung on the caliber ladder. Am I wrong? Can the 10mm be explained in simple terms? Thanks.

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cratz2
January 8, 2004, 11:26 PM
In simple terms, huh? Well, compared to 45ACP loads, the 10mm are going to have smaller diameter bullets of lighter weight traveling at considerably higher velocities resulting in greater penetration and more energy.

The 10mm is the cartridge with the most energy that you typically see in reasonable autoloaders (not talking AutoMags or Desert Eagles) and if I wanted to carry said reasonable autoloader anywhere that I might encounter something larger than a large man or a deer, a 10mm is absolutely what I would carry. For human adversaries, I really have complete faith in 9mms and 45ACPs so I might start to put 10mms in the 'slight overkill' category along with the 357 Magnum out of a 6" or longer barrel... But then, a little overkill is just the insurance some folks look for.

And unless you are recoil shy, I wouldn't worry about the so-called 'hideous recoil' of the 10mm... Mostly over-hyped and often times by folks that have never shot one... Sure, really hot loads are going to be noticably stouter and flippier than 45ACP but that's what you get with higher energy. And another thing that gets tossed around by 10mm naysayers is the high cost of ammo... As long as you buy in relative bulk from somewhere such as Georgia Arms, it isn't bad. But I wouldn't count on being able to buy it at most Walmarts anytime soon.

Marcus
January 8, 2004, 11:29 PM
The 10mm is a good next step. Lighter loads are a bit warmer than most .40 S&W loads or about equal to .45ACP. Mid range 10mm loads are roughly equal to .45ACP +Ps. Full power 10mm loads are in the hottest .357 Magnum range and about equal to .45 Super or .400 Corbon (700fpe+! ). All this out of the same gun,with factory ammo. Mild and low mid range practice loads are available from CCI,Rem.,Fed.,GA,etc. for about the same price as .45ACP. Hotter mid range loads are available from Fed.,Hornady,Winchester (the legendary 175gr. Silvertip),Corbon etc. HOT ammo is available from Corbon (180gr.JSP Penetrators),Texas Ammo, Georgia Arms, and most of all Double Tap Ammo (the 10mm specialist). *Resistance is futile*............. ;) Marcus

mrapathy2000
January 9, 2004, 12:04 AM
you cannot go wrong with 40S&W,10mm or 10mm magnum.

40S&W is getting into 600ft lbs energy range. 10mm has been their and is moving up to 700ft lbs energy. 10mm magnum :eek:

Bren
January 9, 2004, 01:27 AM
Simple terms?

" One call does it all. " :D

Mike Irwin
January 9, 2004, 01:41 AM
Simplest terms I can put it in...

10mm is a fan-frigging-tastic cartridge.

rock jock
January 9, 2004, 02:16 AM
The 10mm is the cartridge all my other ammo is jealous of.

9x19
January 9, 2004, 06:04 AM
...the 10mm ...in simple terms?

Celebrate Diversity!

:neener:

caz223
January 9, 2004, 07:38 AM
I was always happy shooting 10mm at the range, and used my 9mms for 'gaming' and shooting at steel.
Until one fateful day when I was just having a bad day.
Nothing would knock over the plates.
I went from my 9mm 'just enough' loads, to my 9mm +p loads, to 357SIG, to 45 acp +p, and nothing could seem to hit the steel plates with enough authority to knock them down.
I borrowed my buddy's 10mm G20 with his 'major' handloads.
The first plate I hit went down like I broke it off!
The 10mm bullets hit the plates so hard, they almost bounced back up and reset themselves!!!!!
Similar recoil to magnum revolvers, but with good capacity, and easy mag changes.
10mm is to .45acp as .41 magnum is to .357magnum.
My two favorite calibers of all time are 10mm, and .41 magnum.

stans
January 9, 2004, 08:26 AM
10mm is a great cartridge, much like the 41 Magnum. Both are great, well designed, initially well received by law enforcement, then dropped like a hot rock. Then picked up by the civilian community as a good compromise between power, portability and control. I would rate the recoil as being much like shooting full power 357 magnums through a six inch barreled revolver. Snappy, but controllable with just a little practice. It is nice to see Dan Wesson and Kimber introducing new 1911's chambered in this often ignored caliber. A 10mm can easily be converted to fire the cheaper 40 S&W round with a barrel change, maybe reduce the recoil spring rate a couple pounds, and sometimes a different magazine. You could also convert a 10mm to 357 Sig by the same means. The 10 really is a great all around cartridge and I hope its popularity continues to grow.

Tropical Z
January 9, 2004, 03:17 PM
Hi-Point needs to make a 10mm with a compensator!

Sean Smith
January 9, 2004, 03:51 PM
Ballistics kind of say it all... and the 10mm factory loads quoted below aren't even the hot ones! :D

http://www.geocities.com/mr_motorhead/10tech.html#ballistics

For the hot stuff (factory ammo still loaded to SAAMI pressure specs) you can always go here (http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cutenews/show_products.php) and double the muzzle energy of GI .45 hardball... :evil:

Sean Smith
January 9, 2004, 03:53 PM
40S&W is getting into 600ft lbs energy range.

No it isn't. It can barely break 500 with the absolute hottest factory loads. See the chart linked above for details.

FireInTheHole
January 9, 2004, 04:06 PM
Most factory loaded 10mm isnt loaded to the cartridge's full potential.

DoubleTap is the exception. :)

The 10mm is one hell of a round... unfortunately that makes for a large-framed gun as well. Not very comfortable to shoot for those with smaller hands.

Sean Smith is right about the factory loads below 500FPE...

Now handloads... handloads can surpass some factory 10mm loads! Go here (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55519) for further information.(1500fps 135gr .40s&w)

It would be nice if doubletap began offering 1450fps 135gr loadings for the .40 as a companion load to their 1600fps 10mm 135gr loading.
-FITH

pwrtool45
January 9, 2004, 04:28 PM
I concur with most of what everyone else has mentioned here. The 10mm is about as much autopistol as you can get without going to something impractical such as a Wildey or Desert Eagle. If I had to choose just one fullsize autopistol it'd most definitely be in 10mm.

mrapathy2000
January 9, 2004, 04:32 PM
..quote:
40S&W is getting into 600ft lbs energy range.


No it isn't. It can barely break 500 with the absolute hottest factory loads. See the chart linked above for details.

way to quote out of context

FireInTheHole
January 9, 2004, 04:40 PM
Sean Smith said:
No it isn't. It can barely break 500 with the absolute hottest factory loads. See the chart linked above for details.

He didnt?:scrutiny:

stans
January 9, 2004, 08:24 PM
Ok, so the 40 S&W can be handloaded to beat the 10mm, but I expect the 10mm could be handloaded to even higher velocities. I have not tried, I have 44 Magnum revolvers for the big stuff. I no longer see the need to hot rod cartridges. Guess I am getting old and feeling less adventurous these days.:scrutiny:

artherd
January 9, 2004, 08:32 PM
10mmCaliber : 10mm

Bullet : 135gr. Nosler Jacketed Hollow Point.

Ballistics : 1600fps/ 767 ft./lbs. - Glock 20

http://www.doubletapammo.com/main_site/index.html

agtman
January 9, 2004, 09:35 PM
:rolleyes:

I haven't seen any .40 loads over 600fpe, though I suppose someone, somewhere, might be treading into KABOOM! territory with a super hot 135gn .40 load.

Georgia Arms does sell an alleged "+P+" .40S&W load, a 155gn GDHP @ 1300fps/582fpe (product # G40+P+, for those interested).

But so what? "Close" only counts in horse shoes and tactical nuke exchanges, and the .40Swishy-Walker really isn't that close - unless you're going to cheat, like the 10mm-haters do, and focus exclusively on the 40-level 10mm "Lite" stuff.

In terms of the available bullet-weight options and the seemingly limitless power curve to employ them, the 10mm has it WAY OVER the .40: 135gns to 220gns, launched at very benign, wrist-friendly .40 speeds or with enough horse-power to reach into near Earth orbit.

Sean's link to the ballistic data is a good reference. And be advised that finding the hotter factory 10mm loads just ain't that difficult. Check out:

DoubleTap;

Texas Ammo;

ProLoad;

Corbon;

Georgia Arms.

Hornady and Winchester also offer at least one or two 10mm loads that are not merely .40-duplicates.

:cool:

355sigfan
January 9, 2004, 09:41 PM
I see the 10mm as a good round for woods carry where bears are not a concern but other predators maybe. For selfdefense against people I prefer the 45 acp, 9mm,357 sig and 40sw. You get into the law of diminshing returns with the 10mm on people and the extra power only buys you extra recoil.
Pat

FireInTheHole
January 9, 2004, 10:02 PM
agtman:


I haven't seen any .40 loads over 600fpe, though I suppose someone, somewhere, might be treading into KABOOM! territory with a super hot 135gn .40 load.


My safe, full power 135gr reloads produce an average of 658fpe(1482fps) using published reloading data courtesy of hodgdon powders. (http://www.hodgdon.com/data/pistol/longshot/index.htm#top)

For what it is worth, I am now working on a 1300-1350fps 155gr gold dot load. ~1320fps is required to achieve 600fpe. Published longshot data isnt quite there(1329fps for a 150gr XTP), but I will settle for something in the 1300fps range.

FYI the "+P+" .40 loading from georgia arms is all marketing hype. No ammunition maker would dare exceed 35kpsi in the .40s&w. They probably just use a slow powder at max SAAMI pressure.

The 10mm will always beat the .40s&w in terms of maximum power and in some cases accuracy, but when it comes to package size the .40 has the 10mm beat hands down.

Bren
January 10, 2004, 12:26 AM
10mm brass is thicker and designed to handle higher presures, the 40 can't push a heavy bullet fast either.

Light??? People have loaded 135gr 10mm to 1800FPS, RBCD goes 2447fps @ 1000lbs.

No contest.

WheelMan
January 10, 2004, 01:45 AM
There seems to be something about the .40 Smith and Wesson that really sets people off. Of course 10mm out performs .40... IT'S A LONGER CASE. No body is impressed.

if somebody mentioned .38 special in a .357 magnum thread I don't think you'd see:

" "But so what? "Close" only counts in horse shoes and tactical nuke exchanges, and the .38" special education" really isn't that close - unless you're going to cheat, like the .357-haters do, and focus exclusively on the .38-level .357 "Lite" stuff. "


This is getting a little off topic but my favorite bit of caliber mouth foaming is the fellows who in the same conversation call the .40 "weak" and complain about the recoil. I'm not a close personal friend of Sir Isaac Newton but I believe that if the .40 Short and Weak "huwts woo wittle wist twoo much" it probably wasn't exactly gentle on whatever pansy you shot it at.

gunfan
January 10, 2004, 06:32 AM
The bottom line is that you cannot get the .40 S&W to perform exactly like a 10, due to both higher operating pressures and case capacity. Max operating pressure for 10mm 37,500 psi. Max operating pressure for .40 S&W 35.000 psi.

Why would you want to batter the .40 S&W pistol design with pressures outside its design perameters? I believe it to be the same reason that most people load '+P+' loads for the 9mm parabellum. They are trying to extricate perfomance that is not within the constraints (and wisdom) of current engineering. Oh, you can do it. You will, however, pay for it with an abbreviated pistol life and possible injury to the shooter.

One great ballistic sage put it quite well, "If one wants 'magnum' performance from a handgun round, a magnum cartridge should be chosen."

"Fools rush in, where angels fear to tread."

Scott

stans
January 10, 2004, 07:27 AM
I don't hate the 40, but it, like all other cartridges, has its limitations. I see no reason to hot rod the 40 into a 10mm.

FireInTheHole
January 10, 2004, 09:35 AM
I think some of those limitations are cut far short of what the .40S&W and the 10mm are capable of. Yes, hotrodding a .40 case above 35,000psi would be very dangerous... but there isnt any need to go past 34,000psi with slower burning powders to gain acceptable velocities.(12gr of longshot load lists 32,400psi)

355sigfan
January 10, 2004, 12:41 PM
believe it to be the same reason that most people load '+P+' loads for the 9mm parabellum.
END

Sorry I would have to disagree. Most +p+ loads fall in the same pressure range as Nato military ammo. Most US 9mm ammo is a lot tamer than european ammo that these guns were designed around. Also a 40sw pistol is essentially a 9mm pistol with a new magazine and barrel. A 40sw will beat itself to death well before a 9mm fired soley with +p+ ammunition.
Pat

Sean Smith
January 10, 2004, 12:52 PM
Pat is right. For whatever reason, the SAAMI spec pressure for 9x19 is way less than the European standard. So all those Euro autoloaders out there are designed for and expected to work with what we call +P/+P+ as a matter of course.

You could even make a reasonable argument that many .40 S&W guns are actually physically weaker than the 9x19 guns that they are derived from. After all, the makers kept all the same external dimensions then re-bored the guns from .355" to .400", reducing the thickness of the barrel and chamber walls in the process & retaining the same locking system in most cases.

The only obvious exceptions to this rule I can think of are the .40 S&W BHP (heavier slide & modified locking system) and the Sig P229 (modified slide).

Conversely, 10mm guns are based on .45 ACP designs typically, which of course are stronger than the 9x19 designs that most .40 S&W guns are based on. Further, going from .451" to .400" results in thicker chamber and barrel walls, so re-chambering a .45 ACP design to 10mm Auto makes it stronger in some respects by default.

None of which makes .40 S&W worthless. After all, 10mm Auto is a bigger cartridge requiring a bigger platform. But it does make me question the wisdom of running 10mm power levels in .40 S&W guns for the sake of over-macho handloading...

Marcus
January 10, 2004, 12:58 PM
Yeah,I`ll bet if you handload with just the right powder you can get .380 into the 9mm power range or .38S&W into lower range .357 mag. country too. Or make 500hp out of a 396 instead of a 454. In every case you`ll get the same thing a higher strung clone that wears parts faster and it harder to deal with. It`s an old story. I`ll stick with 10mmAuto in a 10mm designed platform for my 10mm level loads thanks. Marcus

Cal4D4
January 10, 2004, 02:57 PM
As someone mentioned earlier, the brass is the weakness in the .40. To accomodate the length of bullets over 165gr or so, the case web tapers out more quickly than the web on 10mm cases. The .40 is not just a shorter case.

artherd
January 10, 2004, 04:25 PM
The Glock 20 is the most 'beefy' Glock made for a reason.

.40S&W has it's place, just as does 38Spl. Neither are 'magnum' rounds.

gunfan
January 10, 2004, 08:55 PM
The 10mm is a wonderful cartridge! It can do anything the .40 S&W, .45 ACP,or .45 Super can do! With modern metallurgy, the 10mm is more versatile than most of the aforementioned loads.

The .45 Super has the one dangerous drawback of possibly slipping into a .45 ACP pistol that is unprepared to deal with the pressures generated by the "magnumized" version of the ACP.

After all is said and done, I stand behind my signature line.

Scott :D :D :D

surfinUSA
January 11, 2004, 04:33 PM
The 40 S&W is right where I like it, 45 caliber energy that fits in a compact 9mm sized frame.

I don't have a 10mm because unfortunately thats also where its energy is around with factory loads from the major players. Georgia Arms and Double tap are not major player and who knows how long they will be around or continue to offer 10mm loads.

The 10mm was a good round, with the potential to be a great round. However, unlike the 41 magnum (which contrary to popular belief, the 10mm does not equal) the major ammo players have not loaded to its full potential. I don't reload so for me if I need more power than a 357 I'll go to a 44 mag. for which its easy to find both reasonably priced full power ammo and guns.

The 40 is a great round, widely available, cheap, offered in many fine weapons, and does exactly what it was designed to. 10mm proponents forget the 40 was never intended to compete with the 10mm at its upper levels so those type of comparisons are just a waste of time. The only real valid comparison is at the 10mm's unfortunately light general loadings. Which is what brought about the introduction of the 40 in the first place.

Sean Smith
January 11, 2004, 05:47 PM
The 40 S&W is right where I like it, 45 caliber energy that fits in a compact 9mm sized frame.

I don't have a 10mm because unfortunately thats also where its energy is around with factory loads from the major players. Georgia Arms and Double tap are not major player and who knows how long they will be around or continue to offer 10mm loads.

Not true for any of the following:

Cor-Bon 135gr, 150gr, 165gr, 180gr or 200gr
Hornady 180gr XTP-Full
Pro Load 135gr, 155gr, 180gr
Winchester 175gr Silvertip

All of the above beat .40 S&W factory ballistics like a red-headed stepchild. It pays to know what you are talking about... never a strong suit for those with anti-10mm proclivities. What's next, complaints about "wrist-wrecking recoil"? ;)

And that's omitting the lesser 10mm ammo makers (at least in terms of volume) Georgia Arms, Double Tap and Texas Ammunition.

gunfan
January 11, 2004, 06:27 PM
is on the rebound! Many handgunners have come to the realization that the 10mm is not too powerful for their needs. When the power is needed, its available this is analagous to the .38 S&W Special/.357 S&W Magnum. The 10m fills almost all niches/needs in the handgunning spectrum.

If you need anything larger, a true, "magnum" revolver is needed. No question about it. The only negating factor in the autoloading arena is grip size. If your hands are too small for a .45/10mm grip, the .40 S&W makes sense. If not, why bother? The 10mm is a better solution to the quandry.

The only mitigating factors in the life of this cartridge, is the "bull$#!# capacity" of some self-serving "gunwriters."

Get a grip... on a 10mm, of course! :) :cool: :D

355sigfan
January 11, 2004, 06:33 PM
The 10m fills almost all niches/needs in the handgunning spectrum.
END

Yes and no. IT can be downloaded to good defensive 40sw load levels. But there is not the same selection of good bullets avaialbe for it. It can be a good woods gun so long as big bear are not a real concern. But a 44 mag or larger wheel gun does this role a bit better with more versatility.

Its flaws are it needs a bigger gun so its hard to conceal. It has a poor shape for feed reliability. The ammo for its expensive. If you like the 10mm and it works for your great. But I feel that their are better choices available. Based on the 10mm's sales or lack of, it seems I have a lot of people that agree with me.
Pat

gunfan
January 11, 2004, 06:47 PM
The Magnum revolver is the handgun needed when you "outpower" the .45/10mm autoloading frame, or the magnitude of the game outstrips the 1911's autoloading format. No one in their right mind will argue against this.

Many acclaimed "pistoleros" like to brag about how easy it is to conceal their 5" barreled 1911 .45 ACP pistols. The 10mm Auto pistol is no more difficult. That is why it is such a great 'field' cartridge.

As it has been written before, 'If magnum performance is needed a magnum handgun (read, revolver) cartridge should be chosen.'

Scott

agtman
January 11, 2004, 07:56 PM
"But there is not the same selection of good bullets avaialbe for it"


:rolleyes: No, actually, there are more "good bullets" available in factory 10mm loads, since it can use all of the bullet-weights the .40 uses, and several that it can't (or doesn't) - specifically: 190gns, 200gns and 220gns. The "good" 10mm bullets are produced by all the premium makers, take your pick: Noslers, Remington Golden Sabers, Speer Gold Dots, Hornady XTPs, etc.

And just sticking with the range of bullets typically found in factory .40 ammo (135gns-180gns), the 10mm can launch those same bullet-weights at speeds that would easily KABOOM! the shorter, more fragile .40.

Frankly, I don't care enough about the .40 to "hate" it. I have a "drop-in" Federal Arms .40S&W barrel for my G20, and, sometimes, after a shooting session with 10mm loads, I'll swap it in and shoot the .40 Blazer stuff. It's okay, but ... :scrutiny:

Maybe it's because I've been around the 10mm AUTO for so long that I just see the .40 cartridge for what it is: an attempt to get low-end 10mm "stopping power" from a 180gn HP sitting atop a cartridge that would fit into a 9mm-size gun. It's a niche cartridge designed for LE use, one intended to be more effective on the street than the 9mm but with a higher capacity than the .45acp - both of which were parameters originally set by, and still valid for, the 10mm AUTO. When the .40 first appeared, it was all about "less recoil in smaller, lighter guns." This, it was claimed, would make firearms qualification easier, and see less training time and money spent, than was the case with that big, bad 10mm.

'Course, that was then, this is now. The theory of less recoil eventually met up with the reality of more felt ("snappy") recoil generated by 180gns @ 950fps out of smaller, rebarreled 9mm guns - more so than is felt by even a peppy 10mm or .45+P in a larger, heavier-framed pistol. Go figure. And LE recruits complained about it. Still do. :rolleyes: (I've heard 'em).

Also, that original 180gn .40 load is being supplanted, at least in LE use, by the 165gn HPs, which isn't all bad, since the lighter HP safely gets more velocity with less pressure than the heavier bullet trudging out of the .40's stubby case. Still, that faster 165gn load has generated a lot of whining about "snappiness" and "muzzle flip."

But, like I said, I don't care. If the .40 works for you, fine. Have a cookie. Me, I'll stick with the real deal.

:cool:

surfinUSA
January 11, 2004, 08:06 PM
Sean,

I'm not anti 10mm and I do know what I'm talking about. When I say major players I'm talking Federal, Remington and Winchester.

Hornady, Proload and Corbon make great ammo and alot of it, but they aren't major players. Good luck finding them in most gun stores, let alone a sporting goods store or a small shop near your favorite hunting grounds.

Sorry, one good load from one major player isn't the cartridge comback of the year. And although that silver tip load is better than the 40 but not near the 10mm's potential.

Like I said, comparisons to the 40 are a waste of time. The forty was never designed to be as powerful as the 10, it was designed to be as powerful as the downloaded 10 which it is in many of the 10mm loadings or the difference is so small to be negligable.

Considering that Glock is the only major firearms manufacturer still making a 10mm semi auto (and those sales are nowhere near there 9mm and 40 sales) I wouldn't be surprise to see all of the major ammo makers drop it in time. Which is really too bad as the cartridge had a lot of potential.

FireInTheHole
January 11, 2004, 08:54 PM
What is the upper limit for 220gr 10mm loadings? 1100fps?

Why would this not be enough for 'big bears'? (thinking... 16shots... vs 6.:cool: )

JShirley
January 11, 2004, 09:16 PM
Mr. Goode,

The 10mm is a round that is offered in various large-frame autoloading pistols, and a few revolvers. One can commonly find .40 S&W 180 @ 950-ish power loadings, all the way up to ammo equivalent to .357 Magnum power (but with a heavier bullet, if desired). Despite rumors to the contrary, Georgia Arms offers very cost-efficient (50@$13.75) 155 grain Gold Dots loaded to a very satisfactory 1375 fps, as well as a 180 grain GD @ 1150 fps. These are not barn burners by any means, but I think the 155 grain is a good self-defense or short-range deer round for experienced handgunners. Georgia Arms offers good ammo at very fair prices, and word of mouth seems to be expanding their business. No reason to believe they'll go away anytime soon.

I happen to like .40 S&W a good bit as well; it's just not nearly as versatile. For a well-rounded defensive piece, one could do a lot worse than a Glock 23.

The only obvious exceptions to this rule I can think of are the .40 S&W BHP (heavier slide & modified locking system) and the Sig P229 (modified slide).

I believe you'll find the HK P7 M10 to be another. Beefing it up for the .40 destroyed the good points of the P7.

John

Peter M. Eick
January 11, 2004, 09:32 PM
One more comment on the 10mm. After firing about 550 rnds of full power 180 grn loads today I sure remember how much fun the 10mm is to shoot. Very very accurate out of a Baer 10mm!

The 10mm is just a lot of fun to shoot!

355sigfan
January 11, 2004, 09:34 PM
No, actually, there are more "good bullets" available in factory 10mm loads, since it can use all of the bullet-weights the .40 uses, and several that it can't (or doesn't) - specifically: 190gns, 200gns and 220gns. The "good" 10mm bullets are produced by all the premium makers, take your pick: Noslers, Remington Golden Sabers, Speer Gold Dots, Hornady XTPs, etc.
END

Pardon me. I should have said good factory loaded ammo with good bullets is in short supply. Where is the Winchester Ranger in 10mm or Federal's Tactical load, or Speers Golddot or Remington's Golden saber. Yes there are some small companies loading some ammo for it. But I prefer to stick with main stream companies.
Pat

NordicG3K
January 11, 2004, 09:35 PM
It seems that in most of these kinds of discussions the real question is not "which is better," but rather "what does better mean?"

The 10mm has better performance potential and I don't think anybody can argue with that. It can do everything the .40 S&W can, and more when it comes to bullet weight, velocity and energy.

When it comes to popularity and sales the .40 S&W is a superior cartridge because it is better at filling the "one size fits all" category. It packs sufficient power for most SD/LE needs, is physically smaller making for a smaller grip frame and subsequently better fits smaller hands, and produces less recoil, muzzle flip and blast. This makes for an easier cartridge to master which is very important, especially when you have a large number of officers/agents to train. Additionally, in my opinion, the .40 S&W is a better cartridge for ultra-compact pistols such as the mini Glocks, Kahrs, etc.

For me, I have medium sized hands and prefer a "beefier" grip anyway. I'm not much for lots of hot .44 Mag loads, but I'm willing to spend the range time practicing and therefore don't find full-power 10mm ammo a problem in terms of shootability and control. As far as guns go, I've always favored full-size "service-type" weapons, even for CCW purposes. On top of all that I want something that will do the job on the streets as well as in the woods. And so, for me, that makes the 10mm Auto the number one choice.

JShirley
January 11, 2004, 10:19 PM
Great post.

WheelMan
January 11, 2004, 10:32 PM
I think what all the 10mm fans (and I count myself among them) need to remember if that if the original .40 cal autocartridge hat been the length of the .40 S&W and then later downsized to .40 S&W special or whatever we'ed all be aruging for the .40 S&W. The bottom line is 10mm fans like their .40 caliber bullets going a tad faster than the S&W can push them, and that's dandy, but it in no way removes the legitimacy of the .40 S&W. By the same logic why have .45 ACP when there's 460 Rowland.

What you're trying to make the cartridge do also makes a huge difference. For hunting, 10mm hands down over .40, I want the penetration. But against humans many .40 loads will already punch two holes in people. An extra 200-300 fps *might* result in a slightly more expansion or *might* get you a bit more "shock" if that's even worth anything, but it's at the expense of flash, bang and shot to shot times.

Like I said before they're all tools and to naysay this one because it's a smaller version of something else is silly, would you complain if the .40 was designed from the start as a bigger 9mm? What about the .38-40? Nearly identical ballistics from 100 years ago.

Parker Dean
January 12, 2004, 12:42 AM
Sorta semi-related to the 10mm ammo manufacturer issue, over on the S&W forum in this thread (http://www.smith-wessonforum.com/ubb/Forum12/HTML/002483.html) MCNETT mentioned that he has been contacted by three firearms manufacturers to inquire about his sales figures. It's down at the bottom of the first page.

It seems somebody's noticing something. Just what conclusions will be drawn is another matter.

gunfan
January 12, 2004, 01:12 AM
It seems to me that if the 10mm Automatic cartridge is dead, (or moribund, at best) why is Bob Serva, of Dan Wesson Firearms announcing the steady production of no less than three (3) lines of 1911-type pistols chambered for the round? These being; the Patriot, Razorback and the Pointman Major. He has also announced the limited production of the Global Hunter that is also chambered for the 10mm!

What does he know that lots of "armchair commandos" don't? What do you think?!

Scott ;) :D :cool:

WheelMan
January 12, 2004, 01:27 AM
It'd be great if MCNETT and "doubletap" expanded the popularity of 10mm.

gunfan
January 12, 2004, 01:53 AM
It is evident that Dan Wesson sure is!!!

355sigfan
January 12, 2004, 02:27 AM
True Dan Wesson and Kimber has done some 10mm pistols. What about smith dropping all its auto's in 10mm and Colt. What happened to the Witness in 10mm?
Pat

stans
January 12, 2004, 06:41 AM
I think the Witness in 10mm is still being made, Glock still makes 10mm's. Colt is recovering from nearly going out of business, so they are not likely to build any 10's for a while. S&W pistols are very heavy and the double action may not appeal to those who choose to shoot the 10mm. If a distributor places a large order, 500 or more I think, S&W will make a run of almost any of their guns.

355sigfan
January 12, 2004, 06:51 AM
If a distributor places a large order, 500 or more I think, S&W will make a run of almost any of their guns.
END

So not even 500 people are interested in Smith 10mm's. The simple fact is its dying a slow death. It may never die completely but it will never gain more ground than it has now. Its the auto equalivilant of the 41 mag in more ways than one. It will continue to be used by die hard fans and thats about it.
Pat

Sean Smith
January 12, 2004, 08:09 AM
So let me get this straight... if we exclude a half-dozen 10mm ammo makers, THEN we can argue that you can't get good, full power ammo from anybody? And if we ignore the 10mm power advantage, THEN it is only as good as .40 S&W? And if we ignore the guns made by Glock (20, 20C, 29), Kimber (Stainless Target II), Dan Wesson (Razorback, Pointman Major, etc.), EAA/Tanfolgio (Witness/Witness Compact/Witness Hunter), THEN we can say that there are no platforms available?

I've never heard Hornady not considered a "real" ammo maker before. Good one.

Brilliant. Deny enough reality and any argument starts making sense.... :neener:

355sigfan
January 12, 2004, 08:34 AM
The 10mm is glocks slowest seller. A few people make 1911's in it and they also sell slow. Most of the big companies have dropped 10mm's. For instance Colt and Smith. What counts as an ammo maker. I reload 10mm want to count me as one of the vast supplies of 10mm ammo.
Pat

surfinUSA
January 12, 2004, 08:45 AM
Hornady is primarilly a component manufacturer. Rarely if ever do I see their ammo on the shelves of my local gun stores. When I do its not in 10mm.

Dan Wesson and Kimber are small companies that can fill a niche and turn a small profit. And from what I've read about some of the Dan Wesson guns, I'd look to Kimber before buying a 10mm.

Colt makes what they can sell especially in the fragile financial position. If they thought they would sell enough 10s to make a profit they would.

Although primarily a revolver maker, S&W sells alot of 9, 40, and 45 semi autos so a fair number of people like or don't mind the slide mounted safety. Yet not enough liked the 10 and semi autos chambered for it were dropped. Only the 610 revolver remains.

HK, SIG, Beretta, and Ruger don't chamber it.

The 10 is potentially a great round but the sad truth is this, most people buy semi autos for self defense. The 9, 40 and 45 work just fine for this and are cheap and widely available. As someone already pointed out, these rounds are already putting two holes in people, so how much more velocity and pentration do you need.

As far as hunting goes. Most handgun hunters perceive that the fixed barrel of a revolver provides more accurracy than any semi auto, whether true or not. Although the 10 will beat the 357 mag and match lower end 41 mag loads it can't run with the hot 41s or the 44.

No one is in denial about the 10mms ability especially when loaded with double taps rounds, however, most of its proponents are in denial about its future.

With the 10mms actual ability, combined with all the good hype from gun rags at the time of its introduction you would thnk we would all have at least one. But we don't because the other SD semi autos work as well and have other advantages (size, availability and cost). And the same goes for hunting with the 357, 41 and 44 mags.

The 10mm will be around for a while longer, people have been predicting the death of the 41 for years and its still here. But the only way the 10mm will ever become popular with the general shooting public is if this country becomes like some others and prohibits the ownership of handguns chambered for military cartridges.

Sean Smith
January 12, 2004, 09:22 AM
Forgot to add: S&W 610 revolver. :)

Nobody is claiming that 10mm will become a mass market darling cartridge like 9x19. So an argument in that vein is a waste of everyone's time.

The simple fact is its dying a slow death.

It is worth pointing out that over the last year or two several additional 10mm guns are available for purchase (Witness Hunter, Kimber Stainless Target II, a couple Dan Wessons), and at least 2 companies introduced new lines of high-performance 10mm ammo (Texas Ammunition and Double Tap). Both Pro-Load and Cor-Bon ADDED additional 10mm loads to their offerings in the same time period as well.

That's a funny version of "dying." ;)

That's RECENT history, too, not ancient history like the Delta Elite being discontinued the better part of a decade ago (along with most of Colt's other products in the 1990s). :rolleyes:

caz223
January 12, 2004, 11:38 AM
Well, I sat back and watched this thread and the people in it malign my much-loved 10mm, calling it a dead cartridge.
I thought about just going on my merry way, and not letting my zeal get the better of me. That would have prolly been the smart thing to do.
But after a beer or two, I have to chime in.
I hope I don't regret it.
I have no intent on being a contestant, judge or even a spectator in a urination contest. After all, there's no telling when the wind's gonna pick up, or which way it's gonna blow.

I wrote a long-winded page or two, and realize that nobody's gonna read it anyway, so I erased it before I even posted.

I like the 10mm caliber, and as long as there are people who like it, and continue buying guns chambered for it, it's not gonna die.

If you have never actually shot a 10mm, please don't pass judgement until you have. You may find that you actually like it. *Horror* of horrors, I know.
If you don't like it, that's cool too. Whatever works.

If you are considering a 10mm, and think that it might be something that you would like, but you are reading this thread, and are listening to the misinformation that people are spreading around please don't let the nay-sayers get you down.
With this many loyal supporters, the 10mm can't be all bad.

Magnum-class power in a convenient-size auto package.
That sounds good, doesn't it?

JShirley
January 12, 2004, 01:41 PM
Pussycat to blast-o-matic. What's not to like?

355sigfan
January 12, 2004, 03:44 PM
If you have never actually shot a 10mm, please don't pass judgement until you have. You may find that you actually like it. *Horror* of horrors, I know.
If you don't like it, that's cool too. Whatever works.
END

I sold the Glock 20 I owned. I still have the 610 but it can fire 40sw.
Pat

Cal4D4
January 12, 2004, 07:00 PM
If something has a niche that it is the ultimate master of it will never die. The 45-70 lay dormant for decades before it was rediscovered and people started building rifles and pistols for it. the demise of D&D and the Bren slowed the 10mm down but it is still the absolute best at what it does. If your state allows full cap mags you can have 15+ rounds of mag power in a reasonable package,

caz223
January 12, 2004, 07:48 PM
My post wasn't directed at anyone specifically, just seems to me a lot of people diss what they don't understand.

My 610 doesn't get shot much, and I do admit when it does, it's mostly reloaded .40 s&w.
My G20 gets shot from time to time.
What bothers me is that in Michigan, some of the best hunting platforms available aren't legal for hunting.
.41 magnum lever action carbine, holds too many rounds to be legal, unless there is a way to plug it, (And plugging is legally accepted....) even though it's a revolver round, it's a carbine, so it must be used above the rifle/shotgun line. (Long drive due north from my house....) Also, another county to get a hunting permit with, and stuck hunting on state land...)
Same with the G20, holds more than 8+1, therefore, in Michigan, as a hunting tool, not legal.
Therefore, in southern Michigan, the best hunting tools that are available to me legally near my residence, are revolvers.
Now, my razorback, I believe that's legal to hunt with....
And makes a great hunting sidearm...

Marcus
January 12, 2004, 09:32 PM
Gee according to Corbon they sell a lot more 10mm ammo every year than the year before. Kinda strange trend for a "dying caliber"........ :scrutiny: Marcus

JShirley
January 12, 2004, 10:19 PM
Pat,

You don't need that 610, either. Contact me next month with a fair price.

John :D

gunfan
January 13, 2004, 12:43 AM
the slow growth of the 10mm mystifies even the most intransigent of today's gunwriters! Bart Skelton himself in the hallowed pges of Guns and Ammo, begged the general shooting public not to let this grand cartridge die.

From his lips, to God's ears.

Scott

Black Snowman
January 13, 2004, 08:45 AM
The 10mm bug bit me a while back and I had pretty much decided on the Witness, primarly do to it's value (read inexpensive). But after looking at Sean's site (http://www.geocities.com/mr_motorhead/10tech.html) and renting a Kimber I decided a Delta Elite wouldn't be too bad either. I didn't have a Government Model pattern gun yet and I'm not a huge fan of .45 ACP so this was about the only way I was going to get a 1911 style gun ;)

Shortly after that I bought a bluded pre-Enhanced Delta Elite from a THR member and I'm really happy with it. I've done a few tweaks per Sean's page to improve it's longevity. I'm glad it's a fairly heavy gun as the recoil is noticable but it's really no worse than a smaller .40 S&W auto like my new CZ-40B.

IMHO I concur that the 10mm is the probably as powerful a round as I would want in an automatic for self defense or CCW. Anything more powerful and you're looking at a gun that's too big, too heavy, and too slow on follow-up shots. If you need to move up from there I'd say might as well go whole hog and get a long gun or a revolver with a truely powerful round like .44 Mag and up.

12-34hom
January 13, 2004, 12:26 PM
I've own a G-20 & currently have a D.W. Razorback. Glocks are fine weapons in there own right, but not for me.

1911 platform and 10mm are a marriage made in heaven.

Add to that some of D.T.'s 135 or 165 grain loads, and it's formidable CCW weapon.

To bad H&K does not make one of their USP models in 10mm - a full sized one in Variant #1 would be hard to beat.

12-34hom.

caz223
January 13, 2004, 05:57 PM
Yeah, I've often said if H&K made a 10mm USP or CZ made a 10mm 97b, I would own both....

355sigfan
January 13, 2004, 06:09 PM
If you really want one. You can convert a full size 40sw usp to 10mm but reaming the chamber and using modified Para P16 mags.
Pat

gunfan
January 14, 2004, 01:18 AM
cannot be either imitated or equalled by either the .45 ACP or the .40 S&W. No matter what you do, the 10mm is in a "league" of its own!

The defense... rests!

Scott :D :neener:

355sigfan
January 14, 2004, 01:20 AM
The defense... rests!
END
As the 10mm cartridge does in peace.:D
Pat

gunfan
January 14, 2004, 03:11 AM
The reports of my demise have been greatly exaggerated! -- The 10mm Automatic Pistol Cartridge. :cool: :D :neener:

12-34hom
January 14, 2004, 05:09 AM
No thanks Pat, I'll wait till H&K comes out with a 10 MM USP.

If i wanted a conversion = Para P-16 ltd = sent to Hunter Customs.

16 rounds of 10 MM = ;) - makes 357Sig seem kinda puny by comparison.

12-34hom.

355sigfan
January 14, 2004, 05:17 AM
No thanks Pat, I'll wait till H&K comes out with a 10 MM USP.
END

I would not hold your breath on that one.
Pat

10mmshooter
January 14, 2004, 10:46 AM
I'll keep my 10mm 1911 over anything currently offered.:D

gunfan
January 15, 2004, 10:39 AM
God help me, I do love them all! :cool: :D :cool: :D

MCNETT
January 17, 2004, 01:06 AM
WOW! How did I miss this thread? Sorry guys. I hate to be the one to break this to ya, but the 10mm is on the upswing and the manufacturers know it! :D Industry-wide sales figures are up between 12% and 17% depending on who you talk to. DoubleTap has sold more than 100,000 rounds in its first 4 months. No less than 13 departments have ordered ammo for evaluation for officers that elect to carry the 10mm (from DoubleTap), and many more officers that have personally called and ordered on their own dime (also from DoubleTap). The 10mm is moving up, not down my friends! I can't wait to see what new 10mm's are at the next S.H.O.T. show in Las Vegas!
-Mike
PS- I love shooting all different calibers, why "hate" or try to put down a certain caliber? I have more guns than I know what to with, and I enjoy shooting them all, but my G29 rides my hip everyday stoked with 11rds of DoubleTap! :D

Cal4D4
January 17, 2004, 01:15 AM
Good work MCNETT!

I've really enjoyed your past research as posted on GlockTalk, etc. Long live the 10.

355sigfan
January 17, 2004, 01:44 AM
Industry-wide sales figures are up between 12% and 17% depending on who you talk to
END

Well I would like some real sources not just someone you talked to.
Pat

NordicG3K
January 17, 2004, 10:07 AM
Well I would like some real sources not just someone you talked to.

Damn straight Pat! I wouldn't believe a word of this unless they provide absolute and irrefutable proof! That shouldn't be too tough. All they would have to do is turn your house into a main distribution point and ship every new 10mm gun and round of ammo to you so you can count them personally. That way you can prove to all those 10mm nuts that it really is a DEAD cartridge. Come on Pat, let's give them a wake up call! Who in the world would want to shoot a cartridge in which only Glock, Smith & Wesson, EAA, Kimber, Olympic Arms, Mech-Tech and Dan Wesson make guns for. And like where are you going to get ammo? I mean only Winchester, Reminton, Federal, Hornady, CCI, Double Tap, CorBon, ProLoad, PMC, Georgia Arms and a handful of smaller companies even make ammo for it! Come on people, wake up and smell the coffee! The 10mm Auto is D-E-A-D!!!

PS - Pat, I'd make 'em provide blood samples for DNA testing as well.

:rolleyes:

caz223
January 17, 2004, 10:41 AM
LOL, give up pat.
Oh, and BTW: you've lost, sit down and take your medicine...

agtman
January 17, 2004, 11:31 AM
"Industry-wide sales figures are up between 12% and 17% ..."


That's consistent with everything I've seen in the general gun press in the last 5 years, including a ShootingTimes report 3 years ago on the "spike" in sales of 10mm guns and ammo. The writer specifically noted increases in sales of Glock 20s and 29s (as reported by Glock) and that S&W had re-issued its 4" barrelled 610 revolver as a response to market interest (i.e, consumer demand). Since then, of course, Kimber and Dan Wesson have released their high-end 10mm 1911s, while Tanfaglio's relatively inexpensive full-size and compact Witnesses continue to be marketed and sold.

Doesn't sound at all like what you'd expect from a "dead round." Nope, what you're seeing is a continuing resurgence of the 10mm AUTO.

'Course, Pat's probably just emerged from hibernation with the bears up there in Alaska, so he might have missed the more recent developments. :evil:

MikeD29
January 17, 2004, 12:28 PM
Yea, but Agtman, the Glock 10's are the slowest seller for Glock. Again the 10 must be dead.

I certainly would not believe McNett, hell, he only sells ammo for a dead cartridge.

Guess I better sell my 2 Deltas, Razorback, 1076, and G29. Hey Pat, want to buy one or two??

pwrtool45
January 17, 2004, 12:45 PM
Arguing with 10mm fanatics is like rolling around in the mud with a pig...

... :D :D :D

Sorry. 10mm people are a stubborn bunch. Probably should get me another 10mm; I'd fit right in. ;)

gunfan
January 17, 2004, 12:47 PM
If this is for true, I'd better be selling my four handguns. I'd suffer from "brain strain" in justifying it! Parting with the most versatile handguns that I have ever owned, (Three pistols and one revolver) seems downright foolish and assinine!

Help me, I'm sooooo cornfused!!! NOT!!! :rolleyes:

Scott :neener:

355sigfan
January 17, 2004, 12:52 PM
Glock, Smith & Wesson, EAA, Kimber, Olympic Arms, Mech-Tech and Dan Wesson make guns for
END

Ok of the guns on your list only Glock, Kimber and Smith and Wesson are serious makers. Kimber made a limited run of 10mm's. Its not a regular production item. Oly makes trash and they sell very few 1911's overall. Mech-Tech excuseme. Your counting a conversion kit as a gun. Thats desparate. If they made a blued and a stainless Kimber as 2 guns as well. Give me a break. Dan Wesson is also a very small company. If you include them you might as well include any gunsmith than will convert a 40sw 1911 to 10mm for you. Show me an acutal sales stat not a figure you think you might have read in a gun magazine. Of course Double Tap is going to tell you 10mm sales figures are up. Thats the market nitch he reloads his ammo for. If I made a shop that specialized in loading 38 long colt and then told you sales are up 100% when I got my first customer it would not exactly be honest. If 10mm sales are really up. I am happy for you and myself. That means I should be able to find a variety of 10mm shells when I go to the local gun shop. But I have not seen that.

You can tell me the 10mm is taking off when companies Sig, HK, Beretta, and Colt start making 10mm pistols. You can tell me they are taking off when Winchester makes a ranger in 10mm, When federal makes a Tactical and Personal defense load in 10mm, when speer starts selling golddots in 10mm.

If you like the round fine. It does an acceptable job. Its nothing special. Buy a 10mm and shoot to your hearts content. But don't piss on my leg and tell me its raining.
Pat

WheelMan
January 17, 2004, 12:56 PM
I find it downright funny that somebody who uses the handle 355sigfan is railing on about 10mm.

gunfan
January 17, 2004, 01:00 PM
The Hydra- Shok is Federal's version of "Personal Defense" ammunition for the cartridge that has been produced for over ten years. I'd personally examine such rash statements very carefully before making them.

JMHO,

Scott

355sigfan
January 17, 2004, 01:09 PM
I find it downright funny that somebody who uses the handle 355sigfan is railing on about 10mm.

END

The funny thing is even though I have started to move away from the 357 sig I have a much larger selection in this caliber than you do in the 10mm. I can buy guns from Glock (31.32.33), Sig (229,239,226), Beretta (Cougar), Hk(USP Compact) and Smith and Wesson(Sigma) in 357 sig. I can name a list of Fedral, State and City agencies using this round. I can find Winchester Ranger rounds, Federal Tactical rounds, Speer Golddots, Remington Golden Sabers ext in this caliber. Also if a shooter becomes disinterested in the 357 sig, its a barrel away from being a 40sw.

The 357 sig may die. But its too soon to tell. It has a good foothold in the leo community. It has much larger foot hold than the 10mm ever did in its hey day.
Pat

355sigfan
January 17, 2004, 01:13 PM
The Hydra- Shok is Federal's version of "Personal Defense" ammunition for the cartridge that has been produced for over ten years. I'd personally examine such rash statements very carefully before making them.
END

You might want to take your own advice. The Personal Defense line uses Hydra Shock bullets but they are lighter in weight typically and are loaded to slightly higher velocities and they are sold under the PD line and not as Hydra Shocks. For example the 45 acp comes in a 230 grain Hydra Shocks, 185 grain Hydra shock a +p 185 grain Hydra shock. But the PD hydra shock that they are pushing is a 165 grain hydra shock. When Federal starts marketing a 10mm load under the PD name you can tell me I am wrong. Guess what they don't.
Pat

WheelMan
January 17, 2004, 01:34 PM
Also if a shooter becomes disinterested in the 357 sig, its a barrel away from being a 40sw

I have a 40 barrel for my 10mm witness.

355sigfan
January 17, 2004, 02:06 PM
I have a 40 barrel for my 10mm witness.
END

Thats true you can get a barrell for 40sw and 357 sig. A 357 sig shooter can get a barrel for 40sw and 9mm. However if a 357 sig shooter becomes unhappy he can go to the 40sw. The 40sw is the same size gun so he is not giving anything up. The 10mm shooter if he decided to carry the 40sw permantely is stuck with a 45 framed gun and gives up concealability.
Pat

Sean Smith
January 17, 2004, 02:58 PM
But don't piss on my leg and tell me its raining.

How about you don't ignore everything that is inconvenient to your a priori conviction that 10mm is "dying"? :rolleyes:

More guns are being made in 10mm than were 5 years ago.
More 10mm ammo is being made by more companies than was 5 years go.

Objective facts, Pat. You don't have to like them, but there you go. Nobody here is claiming that 10mm with overtake .40 S&W as a mainstream caliber sold in mass quantities. But likewise, the evidence is also quite clear that 10mm isn't dying, either... and that the opposite is true.

355sigfan
January 17, 2004, 03:27 PM
More guns are being made in 10mm than were 5 years ago.
More 10mm ammo is being made by more companies than was 5 years go.
END
I like objective facts. But until I see data I can't accept this statment as fact. I see less guns being made today than their were in the past. We have lost a lot of 10mm's. As for ammo we lost Triton and picked up this new small Double Tap company. Net sum equal at best unitl you consider that Double Tap is more of a small scale reloading firm than a full fledged ammo company.
Pat

Delmar
January 17, 2004, 03:29 PM
This is like the best of WWF! We see all kinds of figures being batted around as to the percentage of growth of the 10MM, any idea of where its going to level off?

Myself, I see the 10MM as a definate we're here to stay when Colt comes out with one on a 1911 chassis. They seem to be the most conservative as to introductions of anything new, and for good reason. The American buying public is as fickle as it gets, and when it comes to something new, they want old.

I passed up a Delta a few months back as I saw some peening on the frame rail, but I'd buy a new Delta in a heartbeat if they would make one. I've popped a couple of deer with my 45 at fairly close range-both under 50 yards, but I think it would be neat to take one at the opposite goal line!

NordicG3K
January 17, 2004, 04:08 PM
355sigfan,
What might be helpful is if you could actually define what a "dead cartridge" is. Yes I included Dan Wesson and Mech Tech, but since you are obviously so much more experienced in the world of marketing maybe you can explain why a small company would risk investing money on chambering a gun (or conversion kit) for a caliber apparently nobody is buying? (As far as the Oly, I was refering to the 10mm AR carbine which, in my experience, has been far from trash.) I can just see the board room meetings at Glock, Smith & Wesson, Kimber, etc. with all the suits sitting there saying, "Hey, let's make a gun for a dead cartridge!" And I'm sure all those ammo companies are making the 10mm just to store in warehouses somewhere. Do you really believe your own line, or have you just backed yourself into a corner and don't know how to bow out gracefully?

PS - That wasn't me pissing down your leg. Maybe you should check your shorts.

Sean Smith
January 17, 2004, 04:37 PM
I like objective facts. But until I see data I can't accept this statment as fact.

The data has already been provided, which you can confirm or deny if you aren't lazy. Well, let's see. 5 years ago was 1999. The Delta was already gone 3 years, and the S&W autos were gone too. Basically all you had for a factory guns were the Glock 20, 20C and 29. No 1911s from any major (or even minor) maker.

2004, add the Witness, Witness Compact, Witness Hunter, DW Razorback and Pointman Major, Kimber Stainless Target II, et. al., and keep the same Glock line. I don't know if the 610 was made in 1999, but it was re-introduced by S&W and is still listed as available.

Add Texas Ammo and Double Tap, and added loads from Pro Load (135gr Nosler) and Cor-Bon (135gr P-ball). CCI/Speer, Remington, Winchester, and Federal still sell 10mm ammo, too.

As for ammo we lost Triton and picked up this new small Double Tap company. Net sum equal at best unitl you consider that Double Tap is more of a small scale reloading firm than a full fledged ammo company.

The entire Triton company crapped out... does that count against .45 ACP, .40 S&W and .357 Sig, too? :rolleyes:

Triton had 1 10mm load. DT has 10.

Myself
January 17, 2004, 04:41 PM
Warning:

There is a problem with the 10MM.

If you buy one you will most likely want more.

You may even end up like Nordic and want them all.

Beware!!!

:p

355sigfan
January 17, 2004, 06:30 PM
The data has already been provided, which you can confirm or deny if you aren't lazy. Well, let's see. 5 years ago was 1999. The Delta was already gone 3 years, and the S&W autos were gone too. Basically all you had for a factory guns were the Glock 20, 20C and 29. No 1911s from any major (or even minor) maker.
END

I know you set the question up to exclude models that had been dropped. Why not ask for the last 10 years. The overall trend is for less guns. The only new guns are comming from fairly small producing companies.

Same goes for your ammo companies. Texas Ammo and Double Tap have more in common with my reloading set up in the garage than they do to Federal, Winchester or Remington.

The 10mm is not dead yet but its on its way there. It will probably stay around like the 41 mag for quite a while with a few loads and a gun or two. But you will not see any real new deveopements here.

SNIP
As far as the Oly, I was refering to the 10mm AR carbine
END

I am glad your happy. I had a very bad experience with Oly and their AR15 line. Also I see no use for a pistol caliber carbine. If you need a long gun you need a longgun caliber.

As far as bowing out gracefully. Hows this. Lets agree to disagree for now and see where the 10mm is in 10 years.
Pat


Pat

NordicG3K
January 17, 2004, 06:44 PM
As far as bowing out gracefully. Hows this. Lets agree to disagree for now and see where the 10mm is in 10 years.

I can live with that.

12-34hom
January 17, 2004, 07:44 PM
Pat is never wrong.

I intend to go in harms way - just not with a 357sig... ;)

Make mine a 10mm.

12-34hom.

Beren
January 17, 2004, 07:54 PM
Not to add fuel to the fire, but I almost brought a S&W 1086 today to keep my 1076 company. I walked away due to a $20 gap between his asking price and what I was willing to pay. I guess it wasn't worth the extra $20 to me at the time, but let me tell you, the action on the 1086 was smooo-ooooth. (It's DAO, fwiw.) We'll see. It'll probably end up in my hands sometime in the next few months.

Who needs choices among 10 different firearm manufacturers when you have quality samples like the Glock 20, S&W 10xx, and a handful of 1911-pattern pistols available? I can only shoot two at a time anyway. :)

BTW, I purchsed my 1076 factory new just last spring, and I know a dealer who has another NIB 1076 that I might grab just to be greedy. While rare, one can find NIB 1076's, at least.

agtman
January 17, 2004, 07:57 PM
:rolleyes: You'll have to excuse Pat, ....


.... not for being just another 10mm-hater, but apparently up in Alaska they sell Numbnutz beer, which leaves those who drink it, ah ... shall we say, somewhat irrational ... :scrutiny: That's a shame, because on the 10Ring over at GT there seem to be a lot of new and enthusiastic 10mm users in that state.

Anyway, getting back to something relevant:

since Pat is ranting about "documentation," the ShootingTimes article to which I referred - if anyone cares - appeared in the Sept. 2001 issue and was written by Dick Metcalf. In fact, he specifically says he "was flatly astounded" at the 1998 SHOT show when S&W "re-introduced" its 610 10mm revolver (p.27). "By mid-2001," S&W "reaffirmed the place of the 10mm in its catalog" by adding the 4" 610.

But the best part was Metcalf's running 2500+ "rounds of 10mm factory loads through [the G20], including 2000 rounds of Norma's original hot-loaded 170-grain JHP." Metcalf states that groups "averaged 2.37 inches at 25 yards." The final 5-shot group @ 25yds with the old Norma load "measured 2.88 inches."

Thanks, Pat. It was nice to re-read the article again. ;)

NordicG3K
January 17, 2004, 08:49 PM
ARGH! What was Metcalf thinking burning up all that Norma fodder in a torture test?!?! :confused:

Beren,
Go back and grab that 1086, you won't regret it! I've been using one for my CCW piece for a while now and have been very happy with it. The trigger is very smooth, as you mention, but does take some getting used to, especially if you're predominantly a 1911 person (I kept pulling my shots low for quite a while). For its size and weight it's actually pretty concealable and is fast into action with nothing extra hanging off the sides other than the slide stop and mag release. And, as I'm sure you know, the S&W 10xx series guns are built like tanks!

355sigfan
January 17, 2004, 08:54 PM
On a side note I have no use for DAO long trigger pistols. Like you said you were pulling your shots in the dirt. It is simply harder for people to shoot a longer heavier pull fast and accurately understress.
Pat

NordicG3K
January 17, 2004, 09:47 PM
At 15 yards I was shooting 4" to 6" too low. I switched to the "humpback" style Hogue grips and by the time I had put about 500 rounds through the gun I was putting my shots pretty much where I wanted them. Any time you change to a different gun, especially with a different trigger setup, it's going to take some getting use to and as I'm sure you know that's a training issue, not a gun issue.

Beren
January 17, 2004, 09:50 PM
The trigger pull on the 1086 wasn't really all that long, to be honest, and it didn't feel heavy. Definitely the best double-action I've experienced of any pistol. (Revolvers are a different story..)

MCNETT
January 18, 2004, 01:39 AM
Everything has been quite well stated already......except for Pat saying something about his reloading setup in his garage. You must have one HECK of a setup. I would love to see the pictures of your Ammoload's and Camden presses, Oehler model 83's and 43's, as well as the hundreds of thoudands of bullets that line your humble garage. I am sure that you could astound us all!!! Maybe I should come and visit you so you can teach me about marketing, physics, and internal/ external ballistics.
Also, if you want verifiable proof about statistics, call up ANY pistol maufacturer and ask, they will tell you. I know, I've made the calls myself.


You personally do not HAVE to like the 10mm, but there is no need for you to push so hard for its demise. You will have little effect on the outcome one way or the other. I on the other hand will have a positive effect on this caliber as well as any caliber that I choose to have my company load ammunition for...even your .357 sig (which I am working on right now).
-Mike

355sigfan
January 18, 2004, 01:46 AM
MCNETT

My garage is more humble than that. Its 2 dillion 550's set up with about a dozen sets of dies set up in tool heads. About 20000 bullets and more powder and primers than I dare say. But as humber as my set up is. Federal, Remington and Winchester probably make your set up look like my reloading set up.

I am not pushing for the 10mm's death. I am just facing reality. As for the 357 sig, I am moving away from it. WIth the advent of Winchesters +p+ 127 grain Ranger load at 1250 there is not much reason for me to load up 125 grain 357 sig rangers at just 100 fps more. If you reload the 357 sig you will be able to get velocities in the 1450 range. However are you using flash resistant powders like the big boys. Are you sealing your primers and case mouth. Sabers will not work in the 357 sig. The only premium bullet you will have easy access to is the 125 grain gold dot. Why should I but it from you at a little more speed when I can have a company with a estabilshed reputation load it for me.
Pat

MCNETT
January 18, 2004, 01:58 AM
I am using a VERY low flash powder in ALL loads. Yes, Remington and Winchester will make my company look small, but we use the same quality of equipment and can put out ammunition that is the same if not better quality and reliability. The difference is in the speed and accuracy that we can get vs. any other ammunition. It is unparalleled. We will do the same for the .357sig round.

Also, we have access to all of the bullets out there. We have to honor the 'LE only" factor on bonded Golden Sabres and Ranger bullets, but anything else is obtainable. My money is green and we manufacture ammunition, this is all any of the bullet makers (Hornady, Win, Fed, Speer, Rem, etc) need to know.
-Mike

355sigfan
January 18, 2004, 02:06 AM
You did not say if you use a waterproof seal on the primer pockets and bullets. I hope you do fine buisness wise. I am sure you will. But I doubt you will be a serious threat to any of the big boys. I also seriously doubt you can load to the same standards set up by the big boys. Others have tried and failed. Corbons Quality Control is not great. Triton sucked and thats part of why they are no longer in buisness. I hope you can make a quality product. But I will not be betting my life on your ammo anytime soon. No offense. I just don't trust small up shoot companies. After you establish a track record then I might consider it. But I like Ranger bullets and you can't load them.
Pat

gunfan
January 18, 2004, 02:31 AM
What .355 Sig (A.K.A. Pat) fails to realize is that Mike McNett has just as good of a standard of quality control as the "big boys" if not better!

As this is Mike's only line of ammunition, he has invested his engineerring skills, as well as his entire future, into this venture! Rest assured that he has made more than a "half-hearted" effort in producing this ammunition. He has put his life into this cartridge!

His is NOT a quixotic venture, but a masterfully studied and calculated effort!

God bless you, Mike Mc Nett! May the Almighty provide you with many years of loading success, and LOTS of profit!

Scott

355sigfan
January 18, 2004, 12:32 PM
What I do realize is that he has not answered a simple question on sealing primers and the case mouth with a water proof seal. What I do realize is he has not had near the experience making ammo the big boys have. What I do realize is that his equipment for loading can't compare to the big boys.
Pat

Sean Smith
January 18, 2004, 12:43 PM
Others have tried and failed.

And some have tried and succeeded. Pro Load comes to mind here, a smaller company that alot of people favor because they are perceived to be better than the "big boys" and produce a more consistent product.

Dannyboy
January 18, 2004, 01:00 PM
Since when does bigger mean better?
Since when is LE use a sign of a cartridge's worthiness?

355sigfan
January 18, 2004, 01:09 PM
Since when does bigger mean better?
Since when is LE use a sign of a cartridge's worthiness?

End
Since the begining of time. If they did not make a good product they would not have got big. If the round was not desent it would not be used by leo's.
Pat

Cal4D4
January 18, 2004, 01:13 PM
Obviously a cartridge of little interest. Mr. Ron E. Goode II posts a thread titled by only "10mm" and has over 2000 viewers and 100+ replies in about 10 days.

MikeD29
January 18, 2004, 01:18 PM
I do not know why you guys even bother arguing with Pat, I mean, this is the guy who posted a serious response in the Ask A Navy SEAL thread, all because the 10mm was mentioned. Even his humor is blinded when the 10 is involved.

Obviously the bigger guys are better..Pat said so.

Hey Pat, why don't you send the Navy SEAL a question about wheter or not the primers are sealed.

Dannyboy
January 18, 2004, 01:25 PM
Since the begining of time. If they did not make a good product they would not have got big. If the round was not desent it would not be used by leo's.

Bigger does not always mean better. As for LE use, I guess the .45 must be dying, as well. I mean, it doesn't see much LE use these days. Key word there: MUCH.

MCNETT
January 18, 2004, 01:28 PM
At this point in time, the customer has the option of whether the primers are sealed or not. Bigger is not better. Or we would all be buying only one brand of everything! Win and Rem are 150+years old, this is the real reason why they are so big, not because they are above what DoubleTap, Proload, or any other smaller company in terms of quality.
-Mike

355sigfan
January 18, 2004, 01:55 PM
Bigger does not always mean better. As for LE use, I guess the .45 must be dying, as well. I mean, it doesn't see much LE use these days. Key word there: MUCH.
END

Actually you need to get your facts correct. The 45 is used quite a bit by leo's and its growing a bit. Nearly half the agencies in my state use 45 acp's. The largest agency issues Glock 21's in 45 acp. It is third place overall to the 9mm and 40sw. But it is used a lot and its growing.

I have a wait and see on double taps ammo. Its too new to know how the product will be backed up. For myself I will stick with the big guys. I wish you luck.
Pat

Delmar
January 18, 2004, 02:44 PM
Sigfan-half the reason people reload is because they can shoot more per dollar spent on components. The other half is because we can assemble more accurate ammunition than the big boys do. And that has been a fact for a long time.

I can't personally speak for the way others reload their ammo here because I have not pulled their ammo apart, but I can tell you that my reloads for my use ARE more accurate than what the factories put out. I have taken major brand ammo from several companies and torn it apart and seen the variations with my eyes and tools-rifle or pistol, and I take the time to make mine as accurate as I can.

The big boys are out there to make a profit and do make reasonably accurate ammo, and thats fine for a lot of people. It's just not good enough for all of us.

Don't know MCNETT and never used his ammo, but I can see where a determined person who was out to make a difference could certainly do so.

Remember people like Lee Jurras and Super Vel ammo? They made enough of a difference to make the big boys change their ways!

gunfan
January 18, 2004, 11:08 PM
History repeats itself... repeats itself... repeats itself... ;)

gunfan
January 25, 2004, 12:14 AM
Mike McNett has reported the between September 2003 and January of 2004, tha he has produced, (and sold) over 100,000 rounds of Double Tap 10mm Automatic ammunition.

I am truly confused. How can this happen to a "dying" cartridge? I would certainly welcome clarification concerning this issue.

Scott :confused:

Partisan_Ranger
January 25, 2004, 01:56 PM
All I have to say is,
If bigger is truely better, then why does'nt the United States Marine Corp. purchase there sniper ammo from one of the BIG 3? Because...they load it themselves. In a small, well regulated and controled environment where quality it far more important then that of mass production and end profit. Because people really do bet their lives on the product they produce. Every ammo company starts out small and grows or perishes. In 150 years if we as a species last that long God will'en, we'll see if DT & Pro Load and Reeds Ammuntion and Research are still here, hell lets see how well they are doing 5 or 10 years. Time and product will be their judge.

As for the 10mm, it is on the rise again no matter what the feelings may be of some. Yet another platfrom has been released for the caliber, the composite fullsize frame Carry P from EAA. I will more then likely be purchasing this pistol because I like the compact slide full frame design, and I have had nothing but praise for my steel Witness fullsize. We might well see several more platforms this year, the shot show is always a suprise so one never knows what one might find coming to light.

The 10mm is not the round for everyone.(It should be):D All shooters have their likes and dislikes. Thats one reason why there are so many different calibers. In the end, make mine the 10mm. It's not a round for rank amatures. It is however a powerful cartridge suitable for a seasoned and advanced shooter. It is a seriously versitile round, well capable of use for hunting to selfdefense to competition to LE use. I like to think we 10mm shooters are a enlightend bunch, not bound up in the convention of what appeals to the masses. But, if the 10mm becomes more popular everyday, so be it. All I can say to those newly breaking in on this great cartridge is welcome to the jungle.

Partisan Ranger

gunfan
January 25, 2004, 08:02 PM
You're absolutely, postitively, correct! I couldn't have said it better myself!

Make no mistake, the 10mm Auto is the logical step up from the .38 Super, and carry the same caveat as does the .45 Super. It is not a cartridge for neither the fledgeling or uninitiated! The handgun boxes which shelter these powerhouses should be prefaced with the warning, "For experienced shooters only!" This should advise the tenderfoot of the cartridge/handgun's nature!

Scott ;) :cool: :D

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